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LOKFan
11th Aug 2003, 06:27
Whilst replaying SR2 again in wait for Defiance, I realised something about Kain's intial decision at the Pillars while Janos and Raziel were talking.

Kain's decision at the Pillars

1. Kill himself, restore balance, restore Nosgoth but ensure the excintion of vampires.
2. Preserve his life, leave balance unrestored, damn Nosgoth to corruption

But Janos says this: -
And this is the terrible irony - with their vampire purge, the members of the Circle have assaulted the very architects of the Pillars they are sworn to protect.
They have embarked on a treacherous path. With every vampire they kill, the humans are slitting their own throats.

Perhaps Raziel was right when he said this: -
Kain's dilemma was calculated to bring the Pillars down, regardless of the choice he made?
And that the devastation would have been even greater had he chosen the path you would prescribe for him?

All this implies that the existence of vampires is required for the survival of the Pillars as well. Maybe Nosgoth would not have been restored if the last vampire Kain had killed himself. Did Kain know this when he chose to preserve his life? Could it be that vampires are the key to Nosgoth's survival? If so, why would the Hylden want them destroyed?

SteveCarll81
11th Aug 2003, 10:16
i kinda agree with u, if kain sacrifieced himself itd be the exstinction of the vampirs and in turn the pillars might have collapsed. ur a smart one u know lol

Buz
11th Aug 2003, 15:57
Interesting idea, but you must take into account 2 things:

1. Not everything said to Raziel is truth, Janos is an especially shady character so be wary of what he says.

2. Even if Janos truly believed what he said... how would he know? There's never been a world in which the pillars were standing and the vampires were non-existant as far as I can remember. Perhaps Janos is merely assuming, from the bias of him being the last Ancient (maybe), that his superior race is sustaining the pillars, which in turn is sustaining Nosgoth.

I'm not disagreeing with you, per se, I'm just pointing out that you can never take anything said to Raziel at face value. Kain seems to have always given it to Raz straight, but then again even he does not know everything and now that the timeline has changed they are both in unfamiliar territory.

garbagefanuk
11th Aug 2003, 22:10
There was a time in Nosgoth when the Ancients existed but the Pillars never and the Land was fine then but it appears the Ancients created the pillars as a doorway of somesort to trap the hylden in the demon dimention but when they created them they linked the spiritual health of the land of Nosgoth to the Pillars for some weird reason not to the vampires as the land was just fine with human guardians...

i can't see the extinction of the vampires creating any real difference other than the only people who could oppose the Hylden when they return to Nosgoth, the Pillars seem more important than the vampires now.

SteveCarll81
12th Aug 2003, 11:04
like buz said though theres never been a world where theres no vampires. even at the beggining of bo1 there were human guardians but still vampires were around. maybe the ancients set a back up plan. like if all the vampires in nosgoth perished the pillars would fall and in turn the health of the land would suffer like if the hylden want nosgoth they can have it but itll be a doomed world. like a "if we cant have nosgoth no one can" type deal u know wat im sayin? lol

Stukedogg
12th Aug 2003, 14:02
Maybe the demon dimension that the hylden were banished to became connected to nosgoth when the pillars were constructed.

Maybe when the pillars start to weaken, that's when the demons are able to break through, And maybe when they weaken the dimensions start to merge, you know like a part of it leaks through.

We've focused on two conflicting groups: vampires and Hylden. I bet there's a third party. Introduced back in BO1 the demons or the "Unspoken" They might be the wild card in this story.

garbagefanuk
12th Aug 2003, 21:55
Originally posted by Stukedogg
Maybe the demon dimension that the hylden were banished to became connected to nosgoth when the pillars were constructed.

Maybe when the pillars start to weaken, that's when the demons are able to break through, And maybe when they weaken the dimensions start to merge, you know like a part of it leaks through.

We've focused on two conflicting groups: vampires and Hylden. I bet there's a third party. Introduced back in BO1 the demons or the "Unspoken" They might be the wild card in this story.


The demons seem to be in league with the Hylden as in SR2 they follow u thru time to try to stop u as u follow Mobius's plan. Not a 3rd party... more like an alliance against a common enemy

NoobSaibot
12th Aug 2003, 23:07
why do I get the fealing that in the end, Raz or Kain will have to alter history back to an as yet unseen history track to make everything work out in the end. That is if it will ever work out.

someguysteve
13th Aug 2003, 03:13
i've wondered for a while why it would be necessary for vampires to exist as the only connection between them and the ancients seems to be the curse cast by the Hylden, maybe its so that Raziel will be created, but why would they care what happens thousands of years after they've all died out.

as for the demons, i think its as Raziel said in SR2 (yeah, yeah he isn't ALWAYS right) that they didn't appear due to the collapse of the pillars (even by SR1 they couldn't get in), but the Elder God brought them in to try and get Raziel to kill the future Kain. i'm thinking demons are pawns in the game since even Hash had a major part in the collapse of the pillars without his part the elder god wouldn't have been able to bring down the pillars. i doubt that if there is any sort of alliance that the Hylden and/or the Elder god would betray the demons.

garbagefanuk
13th Aug 2003, 22:46
Yes they probably would but that doesn't mean they can't use them before betraying them.. Take young Raziel for example... Mobius used him to gain entrance to Janos's retreat... He used him then discarded him

One_Winged_Angel
14th Aug 2003, 05:09
and I hope that as Raziel, we get to exact revenge for that devious trickery

garbagefanuk
14th Aug 2003, 18:58
We already know the time line...

Its Kain who kills Mobius not Raziel.. No revenge for poor Raziel :( altho i suppose that since they messed with history it could have been altered enough to allow Raziel but Kain still had to make then same choice at the pillars to damn them which means he still had to hunt the guardians including Mobius

Buz
15th Aug 2003, 15:20
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
There was a time in Nosgoth when the Ancients existed but the Pillars never and the Land was fine then but it appears the Ancients created the pillars as a doorway of somesort to trap the hylden in the demon dimention but when they created them they linked the spiritual health of the land of Nosgoth to the Pillars for some weird reason not to the vampires as the land was just fine with human guardians...

i can't see the extinction of the vampires creating any real difference other than the only people who could oppose the Hylden when they return to Nosgoth, the Pillars seem more important than the vampires now.

As to the first part of your post: We don't know that at all. In fact, I am inclined to believe that the demons were interacting with Nosgoth before the pillars were created, thus creating the need for the pillars... then later the reaver was created to "unlock the Pillars and send the Hylden through.... but that's just my theory. Nontheless we don't know what life was like before the pillars, and we don't really know what life was like in the Ancient era either.

As for the second part. What intentions and what magics went into the pillars is still a mystery, and though the pillars seem more important than the vampires, we still don't know how strong the vampires made their connection to them.

garbagefanuk
15th Aug 2003, 17:38
Originally posted by Buz
As to the first part of your post: We don't know that at all. In fact, I am inclined to believe that the demons were interacting with Nosgoth before the pillars were created, thus creating the need for the pillars... then later the reaver was created to "unlock the Pillars and send the Hylden through.... but that's just my theory. Nontheless we don't know what life was like before the pillars, and we don't really know what life was like in the Ancient era either.

As for the second part. What intentions and what magics went into the pillars is still a mystery, and though the pillars seem more important than the vampires, we still don't know how strong the vampires made their connection to them.


According to the murals all throughout SR2 the ancient vampires created the pillars to win there war with the hylden... Anything else beyond that is speculation as no-one has played defiance yet... Hence i'm gonna believe what i've seen so far until it can be proven otherwise.

The second part: Well one would assume that if a race joined themselves to the pillars the pillars would grow weaker as the race died out but that never occured, the pillars simply chose humans as guardians. From this i'm lead to believe that the pillars need guardians more than vampires, but like most things on SR2 its just assumption based on knowledge so far, theres always a twist in the next game :) i'm looking forward to this twist :D

fneh
16th Aug 2003, 11:35
I think the pillars fell because squiddy tore them down when kain refused to sacrifice himself (vampires)

Squiddy feeds off souls (it says about it in the SR1 manual) and kains damning nosgoth means the souls are trapped in the hundreds of vampires he makes.

Because squiddy has been deprived many meals from kain's decision squiddy tore down the pillars in anger.


Remember that kain restored all but hte balance pillar yet they ALL fell.


Also, why is the balance of nosgoth linked to the balance of nosgoth's land yet the other pillars fell and nothing happened. Did the collapse of the time pillar do anything? What about the death pillar and conflict pillar? They all fell yet nothing is said about them......

Buz
16th Aug 2003, 15:58
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
According to the murals all throughout SR2 the ancient vampires created the pillars to win there war with the hylden... Anything else beyond that is speculation as no-one has played defiance yet... Hence i'm gonna believe what i've seen so far until it can be proven otherwise.

The second part: Well one would assume that if a race joined themselves to the pillars the pillars would grow weaker as the race died out but that never occured, the pillars simply chose humans as guardians. From this i'm lead to believe that the pillars need guardians more than vampires, but like most things on SR2 its just assumption based on knowledge so far, theres always a twist in the next game :) i'm looking forward to this twist :D

Good point, yeah this is all seculation... but it's fun! :D

Yes one would assume that, but when you assume... just kidding. Yes the pillars most likely need guardians more than vampires, but the key word is need... the pillars still need vampires guardianship or not.

someguysteve
16th Aug 2003, 16:10
Remember that kain restored all but hte balance pillar yet they ALL fell.
Also, why is the balance of nosgoth linked to the balance of nosgoth's land yet the other pillars fell and nothing happened. Did the collapse of the time pillar do anything? What about the death pillar and conflict pillar? They all fell yet nothing is said about them......

i think the reason they all fell was becuase they need a guardian to take care of them. as for the pillars collapse i think that each pillar is tied to the land of Nosgoth and not what they represent, and their effect is evident when you look at the difference between Nosgoth's future and past. if you meant what happened the instant they fell, i think the damage caused is a continual downward spiral and the collapse meant only that they could not be restored in that time

Buz
16th Aug 2003, 18:41
Originally posted by someguysteve
i think the reason they all fell was becuase they need a guardian to take care of them. as for the pillars collapse i think that each pillar is tied to the land of Nosgoth and not what they represent, and their effect is evident when you look at the difference between Nosgoth's future and past. if you meant what happened the instant they fell, i think the damage caused is a continual downward spiral and the collapse meant only that they could not be restored in that time

The thing I find so hard to understand is the 'now or never' aspect of Kain's choice. I mean, it seemed as though he could have taken all the time in the world to kill off his fellow guardians, but when it's his turn the situation changes. If Kain doesn't die immediately Nosgoth is doomed, I often wonder why that is.

On a slightly different note, isn't it weird how the choices Kain is presented in the game look like the visions in Nupraptor's place (good Nosgoth, bad Nosgoth)? Maybe it's all a crazy illusion.... well, according to Kain I guess it was

garbagefanuk
16th Aug 2003, 18:51
Originally posted by fneh
Also, why is the balance of nosgoth linked to the balance of nosgoth's land yet the other pillars fell and nothing happened. Did the collapse of the time pillar do anything? What about the death pillar and conflict pillar? They all fell yet nothing is said about them......

Remeber Ariel in SR1 and her words, when Kain refused the sacrifise the pillar of balance corrupted to the core and all of nosgoth lost balance... The land of Nosgoth relies on the balance apprently and when that balance was lost everything fell with it... The other pillars don't hold anything in them that sustains the land i'd guess, they are symbols of the land but what sustained Nosgoth was the balance it had... When the balance is lost the other pillars had nothing to balance out there powers, whichs is probably why demons can enter from other dimentions because the the pillar of dimention is corrupt, and why conflict is so wide spread because the pillar of conflict is corrupt... and so on :) u undersatand what i mean... Also i quit work today :( So it looks like i won't have money for Defiance!!! :mad: grr!!! Stupid new boss... U'll all have to tell me if i was right :)

Buz
16th Aug 2003, 19:59
Quitting your job is always right and good... I quit this Monday... and I'll ride off into the sunset in my old truck, saying farewell to my fawthy (filthy) job forever. Good luck to you in your search for Defiance funds.

I'm seeing very valid points on both sides of this issue... so I think I'm just going to have to leave it at 'this can go either way' and wait it out for Defiance.

fneh
17th Aug 2003, 11:03
The thing is tho, that kain RESTORED all but the balance pillar.

From his decision to live they all fell and all look corrupt again..

The balance pillar is nothing to do with the other pillars. Sure over time the others would collapse as the land decayed and damaged the foundations of the other pillars, but there's no way kain chosing to live would cause all the pillars to collapse and make the pillars he's restored corrupt again.

Also, In SR2 when razzy accuses the squiddy of puling the down you can see that the pillars are smashed and his tentacles are coiled around them.....While everything raz says isn't going to be true it looks to me like he was right. Afterall, Kain deprived squiddy of a lot of meals for the so called wheel of fate. I know if someone stopped me eating for centuries that I'd smash stuff up...


Until I'm proved otherwise I'm assuming squiddy tore down the pillars in rage at kains decision to live (and with him the vamps will be made again)

garbagefanuk
17th Aug 2003, 19:40
Originally posted by fneh
The thing is tho, that kain RESTORED all but the balance pillar.

From his decision to live they all fell and all look corrupt again..

The balance pillar is nothing to do with the other pillars. Sure over time the others would collapse as the land decayed and damaged the foundations of the other pillars, but there's no way kain chosing to live would cause all the pillars to collapse and make the pillars he's restored corrupt again.

Also, In SR2 when razzy accuses the squiddy of puling the down you can see that the pillars are smashed and his tentacles are coiled around them.....While everything raz says isn't going to be true it looks to me like he was right. Afterall, Kain deprived squiddy of a lot of meals for the so called wheel of fate. I know if someone stopped me eating for centuries that I'd smash stuff up...


Until I'm proved otherwise I'm assuming squiddy tore down the pillars in rage at kains decision to live (and with him the vamps will be made again)


I know he restored them but like she said "All of Nosgoth lost balance" including the pillars which means they would all recorrupt. I also know the scene of the E.G and ur correct it does look like he pulled them down and he probably did but i'd think that he pulled them down as Kain refused, easier to pull them down when they corrupted than when they're pristine and acting at full power... But i don't think he was starving to with lack of food. there are more than enough souls to devour in Nosgoth when u fade to the spectral realm... The vampire legions would have took alot but when the clans reached a size u'd assume they'd stop breeding and focus on hunting in order to not over hunt there only food... Lots of humans left for the E.G to feed on

fneh
17th Aug 2003, 20:46
I'm pretty sure the SR1 manual says that the reason the elder wants the vamps dead is because they're starving him of souls...

I'd have to check of course

Secrets Of Nosgoth
18th Aug 2003, 08:00
I worte a whole two paragraphs just now and ended up deleting them because I found the answer to my own question in my own thoughts right before I posted it. Heh, the conclusion I came to about the Wheel of Fate is that there are vampires all throughout nosgoth that should be dead, or quite possibly are dead but lost in the spiritual realm and he wanted Raziel to sort of feed on them.

But I thought the souls Raz feeds on are for Raz's health only. Or does the Wheel of Fate not feed on souls, but thrive only when the circle of life is being completed. Vampires living for centuries, even if they are physically dead their souls don't act through the cycle of life, they simply cease the cycle until Raz comes up and kills them for good.

Wierd stuff.

As for the pillars, I think they got corrupted not because of Kain's decision to stay alive, but the pillar of balance over time became corrupt as Kain became more egotistical and megalomaniacal (is this the correct word use...is it even a word? LOL).

Then through him not dying it prohibited the pillars from choosing new guardians, and without guardians even the restored pillars began to break again. And I think that then caused the world around it to suffer.

vampire of balance
18th Aug 2003, 10:58
If Kain dies Balance will be restored. Did you forgot one of BO1 endins? -->http://www.nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/dialogue/falseend2.jpg

garbagefanuk
18th Aug 2003, 21:04
We havn't forgot the endings of BO, i just rule them as irrelavent because its a choice and since we know that the pillars don't get restored the ending picture is irrelavent...

vampire of balance
19th Aug 2003, 08:38
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
We havn't forgot the endings of BO, i just rule them as irrelavent because its a choice and since we know that the pillars don't get restored the ending picture is irrelavent...
No, its not irrelavent. Its absolutly posible ending.
Kain's plans are to alter the timeline enough so the decision(to sacrifice himself or not) never hapens - "edge of coin" thing :)

garbagefanuk
19th Aug 2003, 18:09
I fail to see how its possible anymore... To save nosgoth Kain must die at the pillars with his first choice, leaving it any later on will make it too late to save them as Raziel says is a possibility to Ariel... We know Kain refuses to die in order to save the Vampires...

The only way he could die is if Kain himself from the future or Raziel executes him but that would create a paradox too... I don't really believe it's possible to save Nosgoth anymore... But i could be wrong :) It is a game after all, i watched Spike die on Buffy and i heard he's going to Angel now :)