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Florelle
10th Aug 2003, 15:08
What does everyone think about the monsters in Deus Ex?

I didn't really like them in the first game, even though they were essential to the plot. IMHO they took the game too far into the FPS style of things as you couldn't really use stealth tactics around them like you could with the humans.

What does everyone else think?

Trollslayer
10th Aug 2003, 15:41
The monsters weren't exactly essential to the plot; knowledge that there were DNA experiments occuring was one of the interesting things in the plot - the outcome (the monsters) wasn't that much. In fact, the availability of cloning methods, for instance, was more important to the plot than the monsters.

I don't think the Greasels and Karkians in DX took the game "too far into the FPS" style. One could just avoid them, by going trough other routes, or put them to sleep (i also think the Cloak Augmentation could avoid them seeing the player). The one thing that took it too far in terms of FPSs was the amount of weapons with a lethal use - 17 weapons with lethal use (Pistol, Stealth Pistol, PS20, Plasma Rifle, GEP Gun, LAWs, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Sawed Off Shotgun, Assault Shotgun, Flame Thrower, LAMs, Combat Knives, Throwing Knives, regular Sword, the Crowbar and the Dragon's Tooth) and 6 with non-lethal use (Baton, Riot Prod, Pepper Spray, Scramble Grenade, EMP grenade and Gas Grenade). Plus the Crossbow, which could be used either for killing or putting to sleep. One could discard the Pepper Spray entirely, as its more of a slowing-down weapon and is not lethal; and discard the Scramble Grenade, as it didn't killed neither deactivated enemy robots, it merely made them switch sides - the EMP grenade still is considered as a non-lehtal takedown weapon as it deactivates droids (much like Tranquilizer darts do to humans). So i guess in total that would be 17 lethal weapons and 5 non-lethal weapons, plus 2 utility items (Pepper Spray and Scramble grenade), plus the Crossbow which belonged simultaneuously to the lethal and non-lethal weapon groups.

For a game with many stealthy approaches to problems, it had too many weapons that dealt in lethal takedowns.

Loreleye
10th Aug 2003, 17:53
Ok, what sort of weapons do not kill? If you know that, I would love the armies to use those weapons. Aint weapons supposed to be lethal? Isnt that the point in weapons?

Trollslayer
10th Aug 2003, 19:21
Originally posted by Loreleye
Ok, what sort of weapons do not kill? If you know that, I would love the armies to use those weapons. Aint weapons supposed to be lethal? Isnt that the point in weapons?

No the point of weapons is not for them to be lethal, but to be effective.

All i said was it presented too many weapons, with which to kill enemies. Given the game is more about stealth and not killing enemies, its a *fact* it gives you more ways, in terms of weapons, to dispose of them lethally than non-lethally.

Here's an example - remember the US's disastrous peacekeeping mission in Somalia, back in 1993, when rioting civilians killed American soldiers (you know, the real events which were depicted in "Black Hawk Down")? Ever since that the US has been increasingly working towards in joint programs to develop non-lethal weapons (hence, why the Pentagon has a Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program - but truth be told, these types of programs already existed after the Cold War). But given your comment, i suspect you'd be against it, as the point in weapons is to "be lethal".

I don't know if you see the difference between using lethal weapons which have the potential to cripple, maim, and kill, and using non-lethal weapons which may minimize injuries and be as effective as non-lethal weapons, or not, but i see - specially if i had to make split second decisions between avoiding casualties and stopping criminals ('Ton situation, anyone?). Given that you were cajoled in DX1 because you used excessive force, that people would sometimes criticize you for killing civilians, i suppose its visible a concern by Spector to include real time choices in terms of fighting menaces such as quick and effective action in riots, or terrorist acts. Let me guess, if you were in charge of stopping a criminal running trough a crowded square, and were given the choice between a lethal and a non-lethal weapon, you'd be choosing the lethal one, because in your mind, all weapons are lethal (a decision which would probably end up in sacrificing various innocents just to get one person). Also, with that line of thought, that would mean the research and investment in non-lethal weapons being made by the US and Europe, for police and para-military organizations (like peace keeping task forces) should all be axed, because its just not worth the money trying to minimize injuries and casualties for something which would never become non-lethal :eek:

In fact, go tell maimed war veterans that they shouldn't whine because they lost their legs, or because they can't move from the neck down, or because their friends died in battle - weapons are supposed to "be lethal" :rolleyes:

And again, i repeat - for a game which gave you much more points towards stealth and not killing enemies, it gave you too many lethal weapons.

[EDIT: Fixed typo, added comment]

PDenton
10th Aug 2003, 20:00
Other than the fact we're supposed to be talking about monsters, I think that by having lots of weapons that were lethal Ion Storm allowed the game to appeal towards the normal FPS player. However you still have the option not to even pick up certain weapons for people that want to play a more skilled game. And finally if somone wants to make the game even harder they can do it all on realistic with non-lethal weapons.:cool:

I just think that maybe by putting in all of these weapons they were trying to make the game appeal to people who just want to go beserk and kill anything that moves as well as to those of us who want to use stealth and non-violence to complete it.

Back to monsters I don't think that they played any major roll in the story line but just added that extra bit to make the game more interesting, ie dodging them or killing an insanely strong karkian to get where you want to go.

Trollslayer
10th Aug 2003, 20:03
Originally posted by PDenton
And finally if somone wants to make the game even harder they can do it all on realistic with non-lethal weapons.:cool:


Its great to do that, isn't it? :D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Aug 2003, 08:21
Originally posted by Trollslayer
Its great to do that, isn't it? :D

oh yes. (eventually, one day, I might even try another way)

Trollslayer
11th Aug 2003, 10:53
I'm inclined to try a melee JC in realistic.

In fact im inclined to try the game again but its been giving me problems (probably because of my 128 Meg card, coupled with Direct X 9).

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Aug 2003, 11:38
challenge : a baton JC in realistic (good luck for the kark)

Loreleye
11th Aug 2003, 19:30
Wel, Ok maybe not all weapons are lethal, but hey, you got some none lethal ways. But in real life there is much more lethal weapons than none!!!! I would love more none lethal silent weapons. I sure do!
I think that if the other weapons in the game made it better since if they where not there it would be bored to have to run for ammo, and stuff to the none lethal. More ammo to none lethal would be lovely.
I think that if you are a soldier in the us army, you are stupid, cuz you know you have to fight sometimes, im against armies and wars.

Loreleye
11th Aug 2003, 19:33
And to not get off topic, I post something about monsters. They where nice, but to good. They could take to much damage. I loved that there where so few that made it far away from first person shooters!

Picasso
11th Aug 2003, 19:39
Realistic is the only way to play.

If you haven't yet, try a playthrough with only bladed weapons.

Trollslayer
11th Aug 2003, 20:34
Originally posted by Loreleye
Wel, Ok maybe not all weapons are lethal, but hey, you got some none lethal ways.

Thats why i said there were both lethal, and non lethal, and that there were more lethal.

All i said. :\

In fact ive been doing some research on non-lethal weapons. Jeebus. Some of them are nasty. I would post some, and some theories around them for use in DX:IW, but i know Spector wouldn't even look at this board for comments/ideas :\

agent008
13th Aug 2003, 15:59
well i agree this game had too much weapons that were not necessary. I know dx2 will not have so many weapons

I did not like the idea of the monsters and i really really hated the spider bots those things suprised me at the part of the game where you have to shut down the generator im talking about in the middle of the game in china town not the end where u can distroy or disable the generators

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
13th Aug 2003, 16:08
I have to disagree here
DX1 didn't have too many weapons.

true, you didn't use all of them BUT
I personnaly used prod/tranq crossbow/baton/GEP/sniper rifle
other used other weapons (in a thread, on the DX1 forum i think, there was a poll to ask which weapon each person prefered. I don't think any weapon hasn't been cited. (except maybe for the crowbar)

so there weren't too many weapons in DX1, there was just enough weapon so you could adapt your weapons to your polaying style

gareis
13th Aug 2003, 16:21
I didn't like them. Without good skills in heavy, it took two GEP rockets to kill a karkian. O'course, I had full melee skills instead, so perhaps I'd have better luck chancing a head-on encounter. The swimming karkian was no problem, though; must have been an earlier model.

Greasels were annoying, especially since they damaged after dying and were hard to strike without crouching. With a good regen or toxic resistance rate, it wasn't that bad, but the goo stuck in my hair.

The dogs (hehe, wrote "gods" the first time, might be a bit dysxelic) were all right, though. A taser shot sent them running, or a strike with the Dragon's Tooth took them out like a dream. The cats got underfoot, then they hissed and scratched; the rats were funny, but the prod did nothing against them.

Does the cloak aug work against greys?

greasy green greasels greasy green greasels greasy green greasels...

agent008
13th Aug 2003, 16:22
maybe they added soo much weapons so us gamers can try to play the game in different ways

I think the game that should have a lot of weapons is counterstrike condition zero

Trollslayer
13th Aug 2003, 16:54
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
I have to disagree here
DX1 didn't have too many weapons.

true, you didn't use all of them BUT
I personnaly used prod/tranq crossbow/baton/GEP/sniper rifle
other used other weapons (in a thread, on the DX1 forum i think, there was a poll to ask which weapon each person prefered. I don't think any weapon hasn't been cited. (except maybe for the crowbar)

so there weren't too many weapons in DX1, there was just enough weapon so you could adapt your weapons to your polaying style

I said "too many lethal weapons", not "too many weapons" :\

ginger_grunger
13th Aug 2003, 19:46
Originally posted by Picasso
Realistic is the only way to play.

If you haven't yet, try a playthrough with only bladed weapons.

i totally agree with this one, i tried with just bladed weps before, and its a real challenge, but the feeling of satisfaction is great..like a ninja!!only augmented!!! :D

is there a thread in the DX1 forum about various ideas to try for playin the game through, does anyone know? maybe there should be one started....?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
14th Aug 2003, 07:39
Originally posted by Trollslayer
I said "too many lethal weapons", not "too many weapons" :\

I was replying to agent008 post, not yours, Trollslayer. he didn't make the difference.

(and by the way, I could make the same answer. depends on the way you play the game. some prefer one shot at the time (pistol), or many (assault rifle), from far (sniper rifle), heavy shot (GEP, LAW), traps (LAMs), etc.

there are not too many weapons, it's just that there is a lot of way to play the game, each with a best adapted weapon

agent008
14th Aug 2003, 13:23
hay ginger_grunger you should be able to find a lot of dx forums that talk about different ways to play the game

Trollslayer
14th Aug 2003, 16:30
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
I was replying to agent008 post, not yours, Trollslayer. he didn't make the difference.

Aye, sorry about that,.

dirigimaster
24th Aug 2003, 09:42
YOU MUST CONTINUE SHOOTING PEOPLE WITH TRANQ DARTS UNTIL THEIR HEART STOPS

Skul-Gun
29th Aug 2003, 00:49
i disliked the creatures. it tore me away from the near-reality of the world in which i played and simply reminded me that i was only playing a game...so close...

as for the fact that there are more lethal weapons than non lethal, I agree with you trollslayer, i would love for there to be more nonlethal ways of removing the enemy. nets, martial arts, bean bag guns, flash nades, slippy-floor guns, sticky-floor guns, goop guns (for shooting in the face to blind them while they try to get it off.

Same with hacking. while hacking allowed easier camera avoidance, it also gave players another lethal way of taking down enemies. perhaps a nonlethal way could be to trigger a false alarm to a different area of the map so that the enemies move to a different place. just an idea.

I think the reason why there are more lethal weapons than non lethal is because, of all the varying ways of playing the game, it is not divided equally between lethal ways and nonlethal ways. I can think of lenty more lethal ways of playing the game than non lethal:

Lethal:
Sniper (Kill them from a distance silently. Uses sniper rifle and scoped weapons. Hard against bots)
Heavy (Gib everyone and leave nothing but blood, bones and rubble. Uses LAWs, LAMs and GEPS. Can be hard to find enough ammo)
Assault (Regular fps shooting style. Uses shotguns, assault rifles, pistols etc. May need to resort to other weapons such as heavy etc.)
Melee (Play the game using bladed weapons only, Uses knives, swords and crowbars. Near impossible against bots)
Pistol (Play the entire game using only your trusty, modded pistol for many instant-kill headshots. Uses one modded pistol. May need to resort to other weapons on occasion)
Trap (Attract enemies and laugh as they gullably (sp?) follow you to their doom. Uses LAMs, Gas nades and EMPs. May be hard to find enough ammo)
Hacker (Hack systems and set turrets, bots and creatures against their masters. Uses Computer Skill. Hard to do as not all enemies are in a place where this can be done)

Nonlethal
Knockout (Take out the enemy by concussing them. Uses riot prod, tranqs and EMPs. Impossible on those you 'have' to kill)
Avoid (Keep in the shadows and don't let anyone know you exist. Uses silent running aug, and lots of tools and picks. Hard to do in places where there is no other option than to be seen.
RUN (Dodge bullets as you escape enemy grasp, running too fast for them to catch up. Uses gas nades, pepper, riot prod and speed aug)

7 lethal ways, 3 non lethal ways. IMO this is the main reason why there are more lethal weapons in the game. No doubt there are more ways than this but this is all i can think of for now. Feel free to add your own.

Gruf
29th Aug 2003, 11:15
4 non leathal takedowns, they could have included a tranq rifle (the range on the crossbow was pathetic, why bother putting a scope on it?), bean bag rounds for the pistols/rifles, rubber baton ammo for the pump action shotty (along with slugs for leathal takedowns) and gas grenades for the GEP gun....

the greasels were cool, the karakens were tough but the grays were stoopid, man I hated them, their radiation damage was just too strong, in versalife I let the gresels out, watched the carnage, then tried to let the grays out. seven quickloads later I managed it but man I hate them....

yoink

Outcast
29th Aug 2003, 12:25
Well, I never encountered Grays because I never bought the full retail. (Not a warezer!) I just borrowed a twenty-dollar preview edition that from a friend. It only includes the first New York levels.

However, I enjoyed greasels because I liked to "herd" them against my enemies in the MJ12 base, and the karkians, I found, were too difficult to deal with later so I just left them in captivity. What struck me as odd was the wild greasel found in the water-filled ducts of the base. (Go look if you've never found it!) You'd think pros like MJI2 wouldn't allow that, though it could be the same greasel that spit in the scientist's face as is told by one of the books or datacubes (can't remember) scattered all over the base.

As for the weapon lethality issue, well, lethal weapons have for a long time been more effective. And besides, don't these people deserve it? My character, who I love to roleplay effectively, usually uses stealth and avoids in encounters, but that is not to say he isn't violent. I use my knife and pistol to great effect. But, on the occasion that he didn't have a choice other than to kill, and he didn't want to, (like when he was escaping UNATCO, he knew these people weren't evil on purpose) more nonlethal methods would have been welcome. I think that there were enough non-lethal approaches in comparison to lethal, but the non-lethal approaches were severely underpowered.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
29th Aug 2003, 15:19
And besides, don't these people deserve it?

could you REALLY kill the NSF guys you joined later and not care?

I mean, you killed them, and then discovered THEY were right, and YOUR bosses where the bad guys. so 2 constatations :

1) you might never know for sure you were right (after all, for all you know, maybe the NSF is manipulated by another conspiracy, or maybe not: WHO are the good/bad guys?)
2) the NSF, oreven the UNATCO guys you meet and kill later may have been acting in goood faith : they are in the first case fighting against a conspiracy meant to rule the world, and in the second case trying to stop terrorists and prevent them killing people. the only persons you are SURE are guilty are the bosses : Simmons, Manderley, some other few. but apart from that, don't forget not everybody is as well informed as YOU are : regular agents don't have access to this type of information.

and even if they are, I'm not even sure (ethically speaking) you have the right to kill them : that's what jurys and laws are for, in my opinion.

TehFreak
29th Aug 2003, 16:16
.. which is why i had zero ammo in my riot prod and crossbow most of the time..

Skul-Gun
30th Aug 2003, 00:32
annoying system at times though. i just replayed the game today using non-lethal methods. I rarely even concuss someone unless i have to. Anna noted how cowardly i was in clinton castle, and the UNATCO agent selling munitions complained that they had to send a lot of clean up after me.

Yet after all this, JC still talks like a serial killer, Paul keeps frowning at me even though he's already killed more people than I, and Carter refused to give me the extra ammo. It's a lose lose situation. One that similarly happen the first time i played the game and caused me to bring out my GEP and say "what the hell, why not."

I hope there aren't any similar bugs in dxiw that consider an unconscious body the same as a dead body, or treat you the same way no matter which tactic you use.

(completely off topic post but it needed to be ranted somewhere, lest I unleash my anger upon those poor, vulnerable, 'flammable' homeless people again)

Catman
30th Aug 2003, 17:28
With Castle Clinton, two things matter: Never, never fire a lethal weapon for any reason (even if you're just shooting a light to watch it swing back and forth), and let no one die. Even tossing a LAM to blow open a door will count against you.

I've found that by ignoring the "upstairs" terrorists completely and taking down the "downstairs" terrorists with my baton, I can keep pretty much everyone happy.

I do go upstairs so I can talk to the kid in the kiosk and get the skill points, but I make sure the terrorists don't see me (since they'll rush the door and get themselves killed by Anna).

Yeah, Anna still remarks that I was too gentle, but I can live with that.

Skul-Gun
31st Aug 2003, 00:38
I'd forgotton abot this. probably because i didn't have DX at the time. but this, my friends, is THE ONLY WAY to truly play deus ex.

http://www.machall.com/index.php?do_command=show_strip&strip_id=67&auth=01101-10010-01010-10101-11111

Frost Giant
3rd Sep 2003, 19:09
Gruf,
While playing the game I realized that tranquilizers take down targets faster, quieter, and more effectively if they were shot in the neck. That is why I put a scope on my crossbow to ensure more neckshots.:p;) :D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
4th Sep 2003, 07:32
I also put all the upgrades I could on my crossbow, since it was the only ranged weapon I kebt

you wouldn't believe how accurate It was, or how far it could shoot. (OK, it's not a sniper rifle, but it's still pretty good. and non-lethal)

murka390
4th Sep 2003, 10:52
i actually liked the animals... oh yes, they were a pain in the ass, but ...
there were experiment labs, corporations/peopel that dealt with such things as animal testing, experimenting, augmentation... and for me the "experimental" animals made the game better.
They played their own roll in the game what was quite logic and realistic. THEY WERE EXPERIMENTS, just like the main character actually, he was also an augmentated/experimented guy.

jungernaut
4th Sep 2003, 11:02
use gas grenades in castle clinton then prod and tranq darts.
If anna tells you you were too gentle, JC will get that extra (and unused, likely) ammo from Carter.

Personnally I play as many different ways as possible, violent, nonviolent, for manipulating the storyline, but the melee only or kill no one ways i haven't tried.

I think all weapons can kill and/or disable enemies, depending on where they are used. there should be a way to non-lethally take someone out like the Terminator in T2 shooting the hospital gate guard in the legs.

Guards shot in the legs in DX 1 ran and ran until shooting them in the legs killed them.:( On the other hand, JC would make a death scream when 'killed' by a tranquilizer dart. That was silly. What would more likely happen is someone finding an unconscious JC and then finishing the job.

BTW as for different ways to take the 1st level NSF commander there are four. Kill him because of saying wrong thing, take him prisoner, or take him prisoner then kill him. The fourth is whether or not you kill the Unatco soldier who shows up after you take him prisoner. This splendid variety made manderley and paul and your unatco buddies pleased with you--or not.

sackme
23rd Sep 2003, 12:41
If you ask me there aren't enough mosters.














Smiles everyone smiles This is like some great fantsy!!!!!:)

God damn Terrorists
23rd Sep 2003, 19:07
Well,since we are on the topic of the monsters yay or nay on DX1
I would like to say they were a refreshing atribute to the game.
I meen,c'mon who here dident like to light them on fire with the flame thrower,or incinerate them using the wp rockets?{my personal fav's}The best part about them was letting them loose to reek havoc.My favorite monster was the green greazy greasels.
Why,do you ask?simple because when they were finished killing you with there green goo,well they would continuously naw on you till there was nothing left,very amusing watching them go after people once you let em loose:D

sackme
24th Sep 2003, 12:02
the monsters in DX1 gave it an element that you couldnt just avoid and had to go head to head with or run from (gun fights are best) but i found that avoiding them wasnt as easy as avoiding guards so if the game had guards where there where monsters then it would be to easy!:D











GO FOR THE EYES BOO GO FOR THE EYES RASSK

TehFreak
29th Sep 2003, 16:12
man, you've spent too much time playing bg2...

Frost Giant
3rd Oct 2003, 18:57
Well, my fovorite monster from DX1 were the Grays, because they remind me of the (echos)ALL POWERFUL ALIENWARE(echos).:D I believe my favorite from DX: IW will be the Augmented Baboons, that is if they make it to the final game. I will take great pleasure in cutting them open to see how they tick. LOL:D.

Trollslayer
3rd Oct 2003, 19:13
Originally posted by Frost Giant
Well, my fovorite monster from DX1 were the Grays, because they remind me of the (echos)ALL POWERFUL ALIENWARE(echos).:D I believe my favorite from DX: IW will be the Augmented Baboons, that is if they make it to the final game. I will take great pleasure in cutting them open to see how they tick. LOL:D.

I always liked the psychic monkey thingies in System Shock 2.

Catman
3rd Oct 2003, 20:24
I found the offer to join them rather tempting -- too bad it wasn't a real option.

http://www1.iastate.edu/~wsthune/cps/mrchimps/mib.gif

Trollslayer
4th Oct 2003, 14:52
Yeah i often get the feeling that joining monkey armies would exponentially increase my enjoyment of the game... but no. I have to kill them. The designers were heartless bastards :p

Frost Giant
5th Oct 2003, 02:45
Ditto:(