View Full Version : history reshuffling-ness and the pain in my head

2nd Aug 2003, 11:34
right here's a problem:

in sr2 when raziel refuses to kill kain with the soul reaver and instead plunges it into the sarcophagus - know the bit i mean - well afterwards the world shakes and bends and they all feel really wierd and the camera goes all funny and it looks pretty but whats actually happening?

well kain explains it - history reshuffling itself. but obviously it aint gonna reshuffle the past as that isn't affected by this event (unless the past is based on the future but thats a minor point) its the future that gets reshuffled.

fine. problem solved. all explained. right?

if the future is already written then effectively the future has already happened - in fact it makes more sense to say the future is happening at the same time as the present cos that makes it easier to explain how the future can affect a past that it is dependant upon.

so if the future's already happened or is happening then if raziel is the soul reaver then at some point in the future he has already become the soul reaver. see what i'm saying?

so unless the story goes odd or something ingenius happens to make raziel become the soul reaver whilst still somehow not being doomed to an eternal nasty cycle then the only other option are that raziel as we know him isn't the soul reaver or raziel does in fact become the soul reaver and never escapes his destiny nor does anyone. right?

just a thought.

extra evidence: when moebius sees the future he sees it as affected by his knowledge of the future - how can that be unless it was always destined to happen and the future was written to take that into account?

i'm lost again!

Wumpy Puppy
2nd Aug 2003, 12:54
I'm...not sure what exactly you're confused about. The reshuffling is a result of the paradox that's created when Raziel refuses to kill Kain. You're right that time already has been written...Kain and Raziel came from the future, and everything that they lived through was the way that the future was supposed to play out. Kain was supposed to die in William's Chapel in SR2, and when he doesn't, time has to work around that change. The reshuffling they feel is time itself trying to find a path that will be as close to the original as possible. I'm not sure if this is the answer you're looking for...sorry if it's not.:)

2nd Aug 2003, 13:49
extra evidence: when moebius sees the future he sees it as affected by his knowledge of the future - how can that be unless it was always destined to happen and the future was written to take that into account?

well supposing time travel is possible,there is a million and one paths a point in time can take Mobiuos could possibly mearly think of doing something and would see the result in (Farscape named it best) an unrealized reality in his time portal looking glasss/thingy!
maybe but what do i know its all in one era out the other with me :D

8th Aug 2003, 04:25
The whole point is that when the existance of time-transversal is not impossible you must stop thinking of time linearly and think of it as one giant interconnected web of events.

The future determines the past, which determines the future, in a way makes the whole of past/present/future determined.

That isn't such a bad thing you know, if you believe in causality.. well.. the future IS determined. Its just that no mortal could possibly track every single atom in the universe and figure it out.

Besides, you can explain the future, but understanding it and living through time is a different matter. Concieving something abstractly and experiencing it are two wholly different matters.

Now, why do things seem to go linearly? I was here.. then there.. then there, and this made that happen etc..

Well try to think of it as a really big map or picture.

Your vision only allows you to 'see' one part at a time and to get to any other point, you must transverse your vision over a series of other points to get there.

But then again all of my quack theories have no evidence behind them.. and I'm just pulling this out of my ass cause I'm bored and woohoo I found a forum.

- SpiritShift -
8th Aug 2003, 12:58
Don't fret about it. Really, if you don't want to spend the rest of your life looking for answers in Philosopha Obscura, think of it this way.

Realistically, you can't change the entire past. Theoretically, you can go back in time to a certain point in the past and change the future from then on, but you won't affect the past of that point.

Realistically, you can't change the future. The future is a direct result of the present, and more, it doesn't truly exist as we think it does. It's like a rainbow.

No matter how much you try to move forward and touch it, you can't - because it's already happened, and it counts as the past, or it's happening and it counts as the present. What we term 'the future' is only a name for the next present.

In any event, whenever you try to introduce the word 'Prophecy' to 'Time', you have a... mess. Make it simple and just forget the parallel timelines - and if someone has changed the past, and it has affected the present, only that storyline matters - until someone changes it back. The original timeline has ceased to exist. Remember that line in Soul Reaver 2? It has Kain seeing new memories as history reshuffled itself.

It's easier if you just remember that it's a story.

Which makes my entire post redundant. ;)

9th Aug 2003, 02:27
Umm, when time travel is involved, you can indeed alter the whole of time from ANY point.

This being because a future once being present, is destroyed or altered, thus changing events that led to possible time travel into the past, which further altered the future/present/past.

And.. some parts of the future are simply unavoidable. The future is completely determined by the present, and if I was omnicient, I could tell you the exact course of events from now until the end of time, if there is such a thing.

- SpiritShift -
9th Aug 2003, 13:41
I don't think I explained myself too clearly...sorry. :)

When I said one can travel to a certain point, I did mean ANY point, but I was giving the point a reference, if that makes any sense, a specific example. You can travel forwards, backwards, sideways across, whatever you will, because the concept of the Fourth Dimension (Time) has not been fully explored. Until then, that makes it able to achieve the impossible in our way-too-imaginative minds.

Time is a touche thing, it can be changed at the drop of a hat, or the sneeze of a cat, but any interference from a traveller in the past will affect the present, not the future, because the future doesn't exist, but at the same time, it occurs as the next present. The only question is how far the next present is, in parallel terms from the present you are experiencing.

Eg. Is tomorrow already happening as today unfolds? Certainly the events of today are going to determine some things, good point Berkano, but how far do actions have consequences, and how widespread?

And even if you were omnipresent, I don't doubt that you would have a helluva time trying to catalogue every person's movement to the future. If a thousand people chose to walk in different directions, that will alter the immediate future as to which destination they ended up in, but then it won't be the future, it will be the present, and you will have missed out on you chance to relate the future to them because they will have already chosen, and it would be in the past. You see?

Pfft. I get way too ahead of myself in this topic. I'm not disputing anyone, so no cause for alarm, but I felt that I needed to make my last post clear of misunderstanding... However, if this one doesn't confuse you more, I applaud you. ;)

I think I should stick with my 'It-is-only-a-story-and-stories-are-made-up' theory. It was so much easier... :p