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TRMondo
2nd Aug 2003, 10:22
Eidos can not take the risk that Core Design will use the AOD engine to make a great game within a years time, whilst Crystal Dynamics is still stuggling in the early stages of TR7.

Eidos are experts at covering their own arses, so will not allow Core Design to remain intact. The original creators and rightful (if not legal) owners of Tombraider will almost certainly be taken apart completely.

If I'm wrong, I'll eat my *mint* copy of TR1.

If Core Design is shut down, how can any of us support this? They release one unfinished game and they lose all respect, and even the right to make games?

You have to remember that TR1 was being made at Core BEFORE Eidos bought Core.

How does Eidos get away blame free anyway? By changing its logo?

Straw Dog
2nd Aug 2003, 10:27
Originally posted by TRMondo
Eidos can not take the risk that Core Design will use the AOD engine to make a great game within a years time,

Core weren't able to use the AOD engine to make a great game within 3 years so I dunno what makes you think they'll pull it off within one.

moe888uk
2nd Aug 2003, 10:54
"Core weren't able to use the AOD engine to make a great game within 3 years "

I dont think they had the engine 3 years ago. They spend most of the 3 years making that engine.

TRMondo
2nd Aug 2003, 12:54
How long did TR1 take to make?

How long did Core then take to make TR2 once they had the TR1 engine? They even managed to improve the engine!

How long did TR3 take, again, with some improvements to the engine?

Ditto for TR4, TR5?

If you know the answers to these questions, then you know that Core can make a great games in a year, once they have an engine to build on. In fact we can trust them to do it.

Ralo
2nd Aug 2003, 13:41
TRMondo, I see what you're saying and yes, now that the bothersome engine for AoD has been built (taking all of three years to sort of get right), it *shouldn't* take another three years to make the next game in the TR series - assuming that this will still be the engine used for the next game. It won't be Core making it, though.

Crystal Dynamics have a wealth of experience building their own engines and working with licenced technologies, so I guess it can go either way here. My guess is they'll try and improve on Core Design's bespoke TR engine, although my personal preference is they chuck it away completely and buy in the new Unreal Engine, with the Havok plug-ins. Failing that, build the game for XBox and use Valve's new Half-Life 2 engine, adapted for third-person gaming.

BTW, I wonder if Sony have retained their 'exclusive' rights to Lara in all of this - or are Eidos looking to free themselves from the PS2 restraints and move onto XBox, possibly even GC?

moe888uk
2nd Aug 2003, 14:02
I seriously doubt them jumping to a different console. Probably ps3 would make more sense. I am sure Sony's deal is with Eidos not Core, so they'll probably still keep the exclusive rights thingy.

I doubt Core will be giving away their engine, I am hoping they at least make a Kurtis game or another TR-like game with another character.

Dad
2nd Aug 2003, 14:29
Changing the logo only means they are Star Trek fans. :D

tomb_raiding
2nd Aug 2003, 14:50
I thought the arrow meant that they are focusing more on the Customers opinion :(

Raven
2nd Aug 2003, 16:17
Originally posted by tomb_raiding
I thought the arrow meant that they are focusing more on the Customers opinion :(


Someone shoot that pig, it's a danger to passing aircraft.

tomb_raiding
2nd Aug 2003, 16:42
What Pig?? :(

ME!!! :(

Ringwraith6
2nd Aug 2003, 17:33
Well it has to be said that things are not good for Core... But the sad thing is that it's Eidos's fault that the game got released unfinished... Ironic isn't it? My guess is that, unfortunately, Core will not survive, the only games they've been making for the last 8 years were TRs and... Herdy Gerdy which sank like Titanic (has anyone here played it?) They have to do something very goo VERY-VERY fast in order to survive. It's obvious that the "from the makers of Tomb Raider" moto does not attract costumers (Fighting Force 2 you say? Oh wait there was also Ninja for PSone, both these games were utter failures) So my guess is that Core is going down...
The thing is that it is so unfair that we should all start protesting in the streets (can you imagine it? lol) because this whole situation is Eidos's fault: Eidos needed AOD to survive, they pushed Core to rush the game so that they would have it ready by the end of the financial year, AOD sold well despite the bad reviews, Eidos's was saved and then they say "Thank you and Goodbye Core..." Isn't it infuriating?
Anyway, in previous posts i did say that it was time that Core passed the torch to someone else but not like this, they should've done it at their own free will!!! I think that they deserve a second chence!!
Anyway once again: Fairwell Core, thank you for the wonderful memories.

moe888uk
2nd Aug 2003, 19:37
Didnt Project Eden do well. I dont know. I think if they made a game similar to TR, which played like TR and had similar storylines and moves etc with a different character, most TR fans will flock to get it. IMO Kurtis Trent:Demon Hunter(as someone else suggested) could be a very enjoybale game(if he handled like Lara and was able to use his extra abilities).

Then again it might be the end, who knows.

TRMondo
2nd Aug 2003, 21:17
I thought the arrow meant that they are focusing more on the Customers opinion

I think its a lovely reminder of their new blame policy - notice the arrow pointing away from eidos!

BLAME: EIDOS -> CORE

Once Core is out of the picture, I'm sure some poor US schmuck will do nicely.

Omega_Weapon
2nd Aug 2003, 21:30
If they don't, then who will Eidos blame then?

Chilled Unit
2nd Aug 2003, 21:35
Originally posted by tomb_raiding
What Pig?? :(

ME!!! :(

I don't wish to speak for another, but I wouldn't take this personally!

I think Raven was alluding to a magical flying pig.. as in : "pigs will fly before Eidos listens to the fans"

It's an english and american expression :)

tomb_raiding
2nd Aug 2003, 22:52
HAHAAHAHAA Raven u r one Funny Dude :D:D

I misunderstood this "Proverb" Probably becuz we don't use it here in Lebanon, Thanx Chilled Unit for explaining it :)

PS They said they r Going to "Listen" to us on the Official Site (www.eidosinteractive.com)

Raven
2nd Aug 2003, 23:20
Thanks tomb_raiding :) Actually I'm a dudette (unless dude applies to females as well now?) and thanks to Chilled Unit for explaining!
Don't worry, I'd never call you a pig :)
Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh to Eidos....they do host these forums after all, and have been quite good in allowing us all to say whatever we want about them without censorship.

tomb_raiding
3rd Aug 2003, 02:15
Originally posted by Raven
Thanks tomb_raiding :) Actually I'm a dudette


Oops Sorry, I didn't know :o

Tripwire
3rd Aug 2003, 15:58
now i now why they released a few years ago
tombraider 1 : unfinished bussines
they already knew what was going to happen with TR AOD
:D

Grondmaster
4th Aug 2003, 02:58
After playing through the first five TR games on my PC, including the two Gold editions, I started over this Spring and played them again while waiting for AOD. I didn't mind the extra waiting periods as I hoped they used the time to debug AOD better than they did with TR 4 and 5.

The games have been going downhill since TR 3 ; however, TR 4 Last Revelations was only bad due to a fatal error that sometimes occurred at the end of the dragon scene and a downloaded save game was a way to work around it. The plot of TR 4 was great as were the vehicles and firearms and gameplay.

TR 5 Chronicles was like a bone to tide us over until TR 6 came out. The first three parts were fine, except the Beta Testers obviously never got to the fourth part that had so many bugs that the game's challenge was to figure out how to work around the bugs without downloading someone else's saved game or cheating.

Now that TR 6 AOD has also come out even buggier, I think we can assume management again kept cutting cost by laying off people and instigating overtime for already overworked people including those from Quality Control. They may not have meant this to happen, but there are always unintended consequences when the bean counters take over in a tight market. By rushing AOD to market still too soon, they have condemned Core to the Netherworld.

The plot of AOD is fine, though double guns with unlimited ammo, should have been provided for Kurtis, if not for Lara, and a few side paths with secrets and their signature tones per each of the major locations, would have made the game seem less linear. I think dropping the shooting while flanking or jumping was the worst thing they did to this game. Of course in this I am very biased, as I'm still trying to pop the aft two balloons from Boaz's back. :confused:

Even then most of the bugs in AOD are caused by too many of us trying to play the game (myself included) on three year old Pentium III computers with great graphic cards and with downloaded drivers that weren't meant for those no longer supported cards. I haven't had any sound problems and the cut-scene movies worked fine, but I have wondered what was going on during the black screen opening and transitiom movies where I had only sound.

So sayeth the Grondy! :cool:

dhama
4th Aug 2003, 19:11
Originally posted by TRMondo
Eidos can not take the risk that Core Design will use the AOD engine to make a great game within a years time, whilst Crystal Dynamics is still stuggling in the early stages of TR7.

What are you talking about??? :confused:





Originally posted by TRMondo
Eidos are experts at covering their own arses, so will not allow Core Design to remain intact. The original creators and rightful (if not legal) owners of Tombraider will almost certainly be taken apart completely.

On what do you base this assumption?




Originally posted by TRMondo
If I'm wrong, I'll eat my *mint* copy of TR1.

Wasn't aware there was a mint flavoured version.............






Originally posted by TRMondo
If Core Design is shut down, how can any of us support this? They release one unfinished game and they lose all respect, and even the right to make games?


It's not decided by us now, so if it were true, we certainly won't have a choice.




Originally posted by TRMondo
How does Eidos get away blame free anyway? By changing its logo?

Personally I think the new logo looks kinda cheap, but I don't think it has anything to do with getting away blame free.

MunkeeChum
4th Aug 2003, 20:51
Originally posted by Grondmaster
The games have been going downhill since TR 3

They started at the bottom of the hill, and dug a mine shaft...

Apocrypha Roxy
4th Aug 2003, 21:02
Originally posted by dhama
Personally I think the new logo looks kinda cheap, but I don't think it has anything to do with getting away blame free.

You too? Seriously, it looks uber-cheesy. Could have at least made it something... non-trekky... should've given the actual logo a spikey look like they did for LoK: Defiance's logo.

-please don't kick me for mentioning LoK-

And at the top of the page it's PURPLE! PURPLE!! -yuck-


TRMondo: Firstly, it took 3 years to actually BUILD the engine, which still has some kinks to be worked out; so I doubt that they would've been capable of shipping a polished, fully finished product within a 'year's time'. Secondly, CrystalD recently got the rights to the franchise, and they are not 'struggling', as you put it, to build/rebuild the engine for the next TR game - and they are heavily experienced in building game engines and developing games.

I don't know why you're all in a ruckus about this. What's done is done. We can't change that. GET OVER IT. Core did some nice work, but they had to move on now. Give CrystalD a chance.

And if you decide you won't play TR solely because Core isn't making it, then that's your perogative. Go play other games, from other developers, from other companies.

-sigh- It's a madhouse... a MADHOUSE... :rolleyes:

Mangar The Dark
5th Aug 2003, 13:52
Originally posted by TRMondo
How long did TR1 take to make?

How long did Core then take to make TR2 once they had the TR1 engine? They even managed to improve the engine!

How long did TR3 take, again, with some improvements to the engine?

Ditto for TR4, TR5?

If you know the answers to these questions, then you know that Core can make a great games in a year, once they have an engine to build on. In fact we can trust them to do it.


But what you're saying here is really part of the problem. It took Core so little time because they were basically just making new levels, not new games. If you found a team of talented people on the Custom Levels forum (and they ARE there, just look at some of those levels if you have doubts), I'm positive they could churn out a dozen or so new levels in a year too. Perhaps even less time, but we'll give them a year to model the new objects, textures, etc.

But there's only so many times you can just keep making additional levels before people start to get bored. So with AOD, Core tried doing something new with the franchise. On paper, their ideas sounded great, but unfortunately, they didn't have the technical knowledge to really bring it all together as well as it should have been done. So the end result was that it took a LONG time to release a not-so-great product. Eidos apparently feels Crystal Dynamics is more capable of producing a better game, so why not give them a chance? Core has had the series for six years, and they basically made one great game, a few fun "expansion packs" (TR2, 3, 4 and 5) and a failed attempt at a full-fledged sequel. Let's see what Crystal Dynamics can come up with before we abandon all hope. At the very least, it'll be a fresh approach to the series.

SMG
6th Aug 2003, 19:22
I'm a bit sad that Tomb Raider has been taken out of Core's hands, since Tomb Raider was the first game I played that really immersed me in its world. As it was mentioned earlier, the TR sequels are pretty much expansion packs for Tomb Raider 1. Adrian Smith himself even said all 5 games were made from an idea meant for just ONE game.

Tomb Raider, for me, started losing it when they made TR4, and made me think about the "horror movie" trend, when the same idea is recycled ad nauseum, sequel after sequel. I'd be more disappointed if Core gave us the impression that they were striving to stay on top and lead the pack, even if they spread out development and frequency of sequels. When TR5 came around, it felt like the team wasn't excited about what they were doing.

It isn't Eidos' fault that Tomb Raider is not in good shape; it is Core's fault. Publishers encourage developers to make games that have familiar gameplay and ideas (what they know sells), but the developers are responsible for making the game artistic and innovative enough that people don't get bored.

jodman3
7th Aug 2003, 14:58
You know, everything i agreed with every thing you said until you said that it's cores fault. It is not, all core's fault. It shows when you look in the game disk. They had a lot of good idea's but it was ripped out. The was not core's idea, someone told them so hurry up. And the result was a half game. I think core left it in there so people would know the truth.:p

dgx2001
8th Aug 2003, 03:30
Originally posted by Dad
Changing the logo only means they are Star Trek fans. :D


I am a Hardcore Star Trek Fan...