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phoenixrising
1st Aug 2003, 05:53
Hmmm now that we are all aware that the next Tomb Raider game will be handled by Crystal Dynamics, I wonder how everyone feels if they made the new TR using the Legacy of Kain Engine.

I mean, think about it. Knowing eidos, they would probably insist on using LOK or any of the existing CD engines to create the new TR. It would save them a significant amount of $$$ as well as development time. Both are 3d platforms and all they have to do is to make some minor tweaks to the engine in order to make tomb raider.

Personally, I have my misgivings about this. Sure, this practice has been done countless times with other games (half-life uses Quake II, for instance). But TR has always been unique in this respect.

I've only managed to play some of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver on the PC and it (just the engine) really was fantastic compared to Tomb Raider III which came out at the same time in did in 1999.
Any thoughts?

REHome
1st Aug 2003, 06:02
I only want that the TR-7 takes out as soon as possible.

blincoln
1st Aug 2003, 06:06
Have a look at the latest trailer for Defiance:

http://www.eidosinteractive.co.uk/downloads/search.html?gmid=150

The engine is *very* impressive, and the control of the characters is superb, according to people who've played it at E3. It's an enhanced version of the Soul Reaver 2 engine, which was an enhanced PS2 port of the Soul Reaver engine, which was based on the one used in the Gex and Akuji games.

Starting with a proven engine that runs on both the PS2 and XBox would be a great step IMO.

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 11:49
I guess it makes sense. But if they are going to take 2 years to make the next one as has been suggested, I would think they will probably be making a new engine as well. I am gettin the game SR2 tomorow of a friend to see if its any good. And phoenix, as for your comparison between TR3 and SR, i think TR3 was the poorest TR game ive played (TRChronicles might have been worse, but never played it), so i think the comparison is kinda unfair. I hope I like this LoK series, then this whole change of developers for TR woulda actually got something new for me.(I have some doubts tho as I hate the whole vampire bull...)

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 12:26
People say that CYDY is talented. How? They are STILL using an engine from ps1! They haven't even worked on next gen code like core. Core started making a new engine 3 years ago with 30 people on the task, and still the game engine looked on the par of mgs2 and jak and daxter. They could have made it stream data so it won't have load times, if eidos gave them time. Mgs2 took 5 years and around 100 people and AOD's engine looks better and is more techy than an mgs2 and it was made in less time and by less people! That says something!

Chilled Unit
1st Aug 2003, 13:11
CD have a bonafide next-gen engine in Defiance.

AOD's engine couldn't hold a candle to MGS2's let alone the previous generation of TR's.

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 13:59
Originally posted by Chilled Unit
CD have a bonafide next-gen engine in Defiance.

AOD's engine couldn't hold a candle to MGS2's let alone the previous generation of TR's.
It couldn't?! The water didn't relfected light it had some texture that moved. Fire in the game didn't have any haze. And just in case you bring up the ''water on the lens'' crap, vice city did it to!
Animation couldn't ''hold a candle'' to AOD. Lip syc. was crap! The in-game charectures*(SP) didn't not have individual fingers unless the cam was close. AOD had it all the time, and the engine wasn't done. The phyics* (sp)system was way more advanced than mgs2. The textures were repeatitve*(SP) and bland(only using like 5 colors). There wasn't nearly and much animations in msg2. Patical*(SP) system like fire and water falls were better. And if you were gonna say that the charetures in AOD were less detailed than mgs2 then i got news for you, the charetures in AOD were supose to be that way, simple. Only the first level looked good, the rest was ok. What's up with that? AOD environments were more colorful, more detail, and larger. But enough of that. about Cydy and their engine, that's not what i hear. And still they used the same damn engine over and over from ps1 to ps2 up to now. Someone said that cydy knew how to develop well for ps2, apearently not. They were using ps1 !@#% for how long? If what you said was true chilled unit (about the engine) the why did it take them so long to get the hang of it? They have just started using the next gen !@#$! Oh and don't forget core has less people and still manage to pump out good visual's on the par or better than stuff out there, and do it in less time.

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 14:43
What does an engine exactly do, can anyone enlighten me?

If we are talking about just the graphics, AOD kicks the shii out of all games(on the ps2) even MGS2. Then again MGS2 is a bit older than AOD, MGS3 will of course be even better.

Chilled Unit
1st Aug 2003, 15:47
Graphics are for the large part mainly due to the quality of the textures. An engine is mostly the "world" of the game - for example AOD's engine has space to allow very detailed textures, but the way in which it moves them (when you move or look for example) falls down at long draw distances.

Game physics - MGS2 has the most detailed game physics engine on PS2 bar none. The interactivity is unreal - forget "blinking items", In MGS2 if you shoot out the ice bucket in the bar the icecubes spill onto the bartop and actually start to melt. You can shoot out parts of the scenery and it'll break. The interactivity with the environments that that engine allows for is superior to that in AOD. And they made sure that it could handle simple motion of large areas without juddering to a halt too.

Graphics do not make the engine, playability does, and in that regard MGS2 beats out AOD any day of the week.

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 16:31
I think MGS2 has fewer levels and all compared to AOD, hence more interactivity can be programmed in the same amount of time(eidos hurried core to release the game, as we all know). I mean you could just take the ice thing and consider it a shootable gas-cylinder(like in AOD). Only making the ice melt isnt part of the game in mgs2 while the makers of AOD made all the interaction with the enviroment as a part of the game.(if you might have played AOD, you might have noticed that even at very long distances, you can still see things still in tact compared to the previous version where stuff far off used to go black)

Theres more detail to be found in the environment of AOD maybe thats why some people suffered some slowdowns(i didnt get any). But if what jodman is saying is correct, I hope CryDy make a whole new engine for the next TR rather than just a modification of an older LoK one.

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 16:41
You're right chilled unit! But AOD has rag doll physic, and there is even physics for water and bricks and stuff. They just didn't choose to do so. When bricks or objects fall in AOD, tehy fell realistic, not just shooting out particals or triangels when you shoot it. Anyone could do that. In AOD making stuff fall differently and bouncing off of each other, all realistic, in real time, that's is hard programming. The water moves differently acording to you in AOD, so it moves differently everytime, not just the same animation each time you jump in or throwing water particals arounds to create the the look of a splash. AOD has the particals and the moving randomly at the same time. Maybe it doesn't run good all the time, but it does not mean the engine won't ever, and the engine was meant to stream but they didn't complete the streaming engine and broke the level in smaller sections so it ran buggy cause it tried to still stream. I notice that. And they made it wayyyy quicker and with less people and although the engine isn't done, it still was a worthy engine in today's time. Quite frankly i think it's unfair to compare the two since one is older and the other isn't done. The engine has a lot of potental. But now all of this means !@#$ now since core is not in charge. I'm gonna look up thr LOKD game and make sure they are not using the same engine.

Zansky
1st Aug 2003, 16:44
Anyone who thinks that AOD's engine was better looking than MGS2 is just plain smoking crack. So what if the game could do "reflective" surfaces on water, or haze with fire. Who gives a sh** when the game can't run at a steady frame rate. MGS2 was in EVERY way better than AOD. AOD doesn't even hold a finger to any game graphically.

"lip sync was crap"

Uhhh... duh the game was brought over from Japan of course it was gonna have lip sync problems.

"Animation couldn't hold a candle to AOD."

Honesty man, your either on drugs...or you were dropped several times as a child. AOD's animations SUCKED...honestly the blocky running of Lara was just plain crap. Only thing...ONLY THING, that could be said was good was her hair, and even that was iffy. MGS2's animations were fluid and controlled. When you move the anolog stick Snake moves, it doesn't take 20 sec *exaggeration* before the character moves.

If you think that AOD is better looking than MGS2, you honestly are living in a very secluded world. Go play MGS2 again, then sit down to a frustrating, crappy, slow game of AOD. If you don't see it then...throw away your PS2 and never play any video game again.

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 16:53
calm down man its only a game.

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 17:06
Originally posted by Zansky
Anyone who thinks that AOD's engine was better looking than MGS2 is just plain smoking crack. So what if the game could do "reflective" surfaces on water, or haze with fire. Who gives a sh** when the game can't run at a steady frame rate. MGS2 was in EVERY way better than AOD. AOD doesn't even hold a finger to any game graphically.

"lip sync was crap"

Uhhh... duh the game was brought over from Japan of course it was gonna have lip sync problems.

"Animation couldn't hold a candle to AOD."

Honesty man, your either on drugs...or you were dropped several times as a child. AOD's animatins SUCKED...honestly the blocky running of Lara was just plain crap. Only thing...ONLY THING, that could be said was good was her hair, and even that was iffy. MGS2's animatinos were fluid and controlled. When you move the anolog stick Snake moves, it doesn't take 20 sec *exaggeration* before the character moves.

If you think that AOD is better looking than MGS2, you honestly are living in a very secluded world. Go play MGS2 again, then sit down to a frustrating, crappy, slow game of AOD. If you don't see it then...throw away your PS2 and never play any video game again.

Ok, now that's !@#$%^% disrespecting me! All i did was make true statements, not insult you, it's just a game. And for your info i read tech specs for both games and AOD out did it in poly counts effects and animation. Snake and Riden moved way too fast, if you think that's realitic then you really are snorting bricks as i supected. You ONLY SEE 5 COLORS IN MGS2, What the !@$^ is that? Green, brown, tan, blue, and grey, that's all you see. And if you really think Lara is blocky listen up compare 8000 polys to 4800, which is more blocky you can deside*(sp). Snake is 4800 polys and he doesnt have individual fingers inless he's in a in-game movie and even that is good cause it only for one hand. Lara's left b00b animated better than all of snake or riden. And as for the lip sync, that is no excuse just cause it was made in japan. There is technology where the lips follow the any sound you tell it to. Even when the enemie's turned in MGS2, it look unrealictic. Only the in-game movie animated well and only because of mo-cap which again, anyone could do. They hand animated in AOD mosty and looked worlds better as always.

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 17:09
Originally posted by moe888uk
calm down man its only a game. Thank you. I hate bias idiots that don't what the hell they are talking about.

Zansky
1st Aug 2003, 17:17
BIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Listen to yourself man....

"AOD is so great"
"Core is so awesome"

Honestly take your own advice man...GEZ.

Don't know what im talking about? I have played AOD, thought i would give it a chance. The game sucked, didn't deliver on any level it should have. And im bumming around here and I find someone actually trying to compare it to a far superior game...MGS2. Thats just not right, AOD doesn't hold a candle to MGS2, in any way. Im BIAS???

Gosh I hate bias idots that don't know what their talking about!!!!

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 17:37
A person is usually biased rather than bias IMO.

I think you should listen to what jodman is saying and say yes to whatever he says. TR fans are superior.:D

MGS2 is my favorite game ever(hence I suggested in some other thread about why someone like konami wasnt given the TR franchise) even tho it was quite short. But I still think the enviroments in AOD look and feel much much better. Hopefully CryDy will keep up with the same quality of enviroments that Core have delivered.

Will be getting SR2 of a friend tomorow to see if CryDy can make good quality games. Not expecting much in terms of story as I dont buy the vampire stuff but hoping it looks good and plays good. I have this image of it being similar to devil may cry games, hoping its nothing like that.

Zansky
1st Aug 2003, 17:45
Originally posted by jodman3
Ok, now that's !@#$%^% disrespecting me! All i did was make true statements, not insult you, it's just a game. And for your info i read tech specs for both games and AOD out did it in poly counts effects and animation. Snake and Riden moved way too fast, if you think that's realitic then you really are snorting bricks as i supected. You ONLY SEE 5 COLORS IN MGS2, What the !@$^ is that? Green, brown, tan, blue, and grey, that's all you see. And if you really think Lara is blocky listen up compare 8000 polys to 4800, which is more blocky you can deside*(sp). Snake is 4800 polys and he doesnt have individual fingers inless he's in a in-game movie and even that is good cause it only for one hand. Lara's left b00b animated better than all of snake or riden. And as for the lip sync, that is no excuse just cause it was made in japan. There is technology where the lips follow the any sound you tell it to. Even when the enemie's turned in MGS2, it look unrealictic. Only the in-game movie animated well and only because of mo-cap which again, anyone could do. They hand animated in AOD mosty and looked worlds better as always.

No you basically insulted anyone and everyone involved with MGS2 by trying to compare it to the hunk of crap Core created. First of all its not moving fast...its called moving fluid. Lara's animations SUCKED, she couldn't move fluid if her life depended on it. Whoever animated her needs to go back to school because I've seen better animation in 3 or 4 year old games than what was done in AOD. Next polygon's Uhh... I dunno where your getting your count but 8000 polys in Lara would cause your PS2 to explode and my Vid card to start smoking. Make that number 5000 buddy, and wait...does that...ahhh yes....only 200 more than Snake or Raiden. Add in the fact that both Snake and Raiden have cleaner better looking textures. MGS2 wins round 2! Who cares about realistic running...im sorry but when im jogging i don't look like im running in slow motion. INDIVIDUAL FINGERS...who cares, I would rather have a game without individual finger, than a game that has bad controlls, horrible animation, crappy graphics, and more bugs than a cockroach invested house. You know if anyone can do mo-cap im sure you can go out and do it right now...right? Program the software to transfer the animation into the game world...and make it look good. Get the equipment needed...great lets see it. No one can hand animate better than mo-capture...and if you want to make a case for hand animation AOD isn't the game to do that with. Splinter Cell comes to mind for good hand animation, not AOD.
And being that in Japan they speak Japanese i do believe that, japanese is a different language than english...right? So a game made there using their language would cause...OMG bad lip sync. You want good lip sync...learn japanese, and play the japanese version. Don't be upset beacuse they know how to make a far supierior game, well them and Crystal Dynamics.

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 17:49
Originally posted by Zansky
BIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Listen to yourself man....

"AOD is so great"
"Core is so awesome"

Honestly take your own advice man...GEZ.

Don't know what im talking about? I have played AOD, thought i would give it a chance. The game sucked, didn't deliver on any level it should have. And im bumming around here and I find someone actually trying to compare it to a far superior game...MGS2. Thats just not right, AOD doesn't hold a candle to MGS2, in any way. Im BIAS???

Gosh I hate bias idots that don't know what their talking about!!!!

See that's why i !@#$%^ hate bias idiots! Once again, WE ARE JUST TALKING 'BOUT TECHNOLOGY, NOT THE BETTER GAME. I've played and beat MGS2, The story was real good and so were the graphic, but the gameplay sucked dirty !@#! It was redundant the same freaking hiding 'round thoughout the whole game. I don't like games like that and quite frankly i don't see how anyone can. The only reason i beat it was because of the graphics. And that's ashame. I've studied that hell out of that engine so i know what i'm talkin 'bout when i say AOD is better technology wise. I have never said OHHHHH core is great. I don't even like AOD that much but i know it has really good ghaphics and a good engine that has not been completed. Atleast they threw in different gameplay in AOD. That game had potental it could meet. It's an OK game. I never said It was great, ever. You have just put words in my mouth. I admire core for making a game that is sooo different than the rest of the games out there.
And i know if they get off thier lazy !@#$#, they can make a really great, ground braking game. They had to make two game engines in those three years, each going by different specs. They scraped the first one cause it required more memory than what the ps2 had, so they made engine number 2, the one we have, which is not done due to the time spent on the first engine.
Sony gave them potental specs but changed it later. That's what cause the trouble. I'm not a ''fanboy'' and never will be, if it's a good game, then i'll like it and take whatever put togather into consideration. Since i didn't like the gameplay in msg2, i looked for other things to like, like story and graphics. I do that with games.

Zansky
1st Aug 2003, 17:54
AOD'S GRAPHICS WERE TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 18:22
Originally posted by Zansky
No you basically insulted anyone and everyone involved with MGS2 by trying to compare it to the hunk of crap Core created. First of all its not moving fast...its called moving fluid. Lara's animations SUCKED, she couldn't move fluid if her life depended on it. Whoever animated her needs to go back to school because I've seen better animation in 3 or 4 year old games than what was done in AOD. Next polygon's Uhh... I dunno where your getting your count but 8000 polys in Lara would cause your PS2 to explode and my Vid card to start smoking. Make that number 5000 buddy, and wait...does that...ahhh yes....only 200 more than Snake or Raiden. Add in the fact that both Snake and Raiden have cleaner better looking textures. MGS2 wins round 2! Who cares about realistic running...im sorry but when im jogging i don't look like im running in slow motion. INDIVIDUAL FINGERS...who cares, I would rather have a game without individual finger, than a game that has bad controlls, horrible animation, crappy graphics, and more bugs than a cockroach invested house. You know if anyone can do mo-cap im sure you can go out and do it right now...right? Program the software to transfer the animation into the game world...and make it look good. Get the equipment needed...great lets see it. No one can hand animate better than mo-capture...and if you want to make a case for hand animation AOD isn't the game to do that with. Splinter Cell comes to mind for good hand animation, not AOD.
And being that in Japan they speak Japanese i do believe that, japanese is a different language than english...right? So a game made there using their language would cause...OMG bad lip sync. You want good lip sync...learn japanese, and play the japanese version. Don't be upset beacuse they know how to make a far supierior game, well them and Crystal Dynamics.

Let's get one thing striaght, spilter cell ran so, so crapy, i hate to tell it to ya. And the animation was **** compared to mgs2 or AOD due to the fact the aod and mgs2 ran at 60 fps and S.C. ran at 30fps. And as for the poly remark you said, pick up the OPM mag.issue70 july 2003 and look at the previewed feature on AOD. They clearly state that lara is 8000 polys. And the mo-cap remark, you know what i meant, it's harder to hand animate stuff than to use mo-cap. Alll you need for mo-cap is a studio, suits, computers and people. after you aquire that then it's easy. While hand animation doesn't need all of that stuff, the animater*(sp) would need to think how they would look and carefully craft the animation so the point that it was convencing* and realistic without it looking choppy or too out of place. And they have to determine the space between each frame and make sure each animation gradurally* goes with each other. and just for your info, konami didn't have to program mo-cap info they could just visti a studio and tell them how they want it and pay them after. And the animation in mgs2 don't have very fast animation? What the hell do you call snake or raiden runing up stairs like a guy on speed then. Its just too damn fast for me. Or that rediculous* runing speeds, it's supose to be a realisic game unlike TR. That's why the charectures look the way they do in TR, it's not a ralisic game no woman or man that small can jump double their height. flip and shoot with perfect marksmanship. I don't even need to go on 'bout this cause 1. core is not in charge anymore, and 2. you can't explain anything to a bias person since they they believe, what they believe so wholeheartedly, even if the sic themselves out just to believe it. Also AOD had more animations than S.C. and MGS2 combined.



IM GONE

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 18:26
"AOD'S GRAPHICS WERE TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Now you are just showing your age.

Zansky
1st Aug 2003, 18:48
Originally posted by jodman3
Let's get one thing striaght, spilter cell ran so, so crapy, i hate to tell it to ya. And the animation was **** compared to mgs2 or AOD due to the fact the aod and mgs2 ran at 60 fps and S.C. ran at 30fps. And as for the poly remark you said, pick up the OPM mag.issue70 july 2003 and look at the previewed feature on AOD. They clearly state that lara is 8000 polys. And the mo-cap remark, you know what i meant, it's harder to hand animate stuff than to use mo-cap. Alll you need for mo-cap is a studio, suits, computers and people. after you aquire that then it's easy. While hand animation doesn't need all of that stuff, the animater*(sp) would need to think how they would look and carefully craft the animation so the point that it was convencing* and realistic without it looking choppy or too out of place. And they have to determine the space between each frame and make sure each animation gradurally* goes with each other. and just for your info, konami didn't have to program mo-cap info they could just visti a studio and tell them how they want it and pay them after. And the animation in mgs2 don't have very fast animation? What the hell do you call snake or raiden runing up stairs like a guy on speed then. Its just too damn fast for me. Or that rediculous* runing speeds, it's supose to be a realisic game unlike TR. That's why the charectures look the way they do in TR, it's not a ralisic game no woman or man that small can jump double their height. flip and shoot with perfect marksmanship. I don't even need to go on 'bout this cause 1. core is not in charge anymore, and 2. you can't explain anything to a bias person since they they believe, what they believe so wholeheartedly, even if the sic themselves out just to believe it. Also AOD had more animations than S.C. and MGS2 combined.

IM GONE

Funny that you say Splinter Cell ran slow..considering that AOD couldn't hold a steady frame rate if it wanted to. Plus lets add in bugs...ah yes bugs. You say this game engine was so great...and the team did such a great job making it yet the game is loaded with bugs. Yes i understand how motion capture works...but if you want good hand animation AOD didn't have it. And 8000 polygons is a mistake dude. I think the guy ment to hit a 5 instead of an 8 when he was typing that preview. You contradict yourself... talking about realism with the way that Snake runs up stairs... then say that TR isn't realistic with the way that Lara jumps. Make up your mind. It makes sense that Snake can run up stairs fast... he is a super solider. Lara is just an "tomb raider" with no military training, also add in that shes a woman, and what do you get...slow running. But not just slow running...poorly animated slow running. AOD may have had more animations than SC and MGS2 combined, but they all sucked so what was the point.

As for the child comment...when your 3 years old sometimes it comes out :)

OriginalBryGuy
1st Aug 2003, 19:02
Even if the next TR did use the same or similar LOK engine I wouldn't be sad.

Heck, maybe the LOK folks could put Lara in as a hidden character. For the PC they could always use some of the new Directx 9 features since newer graphics cards are supporting such things. Either way, I think it will all work out fine.

For the record I love MGS. :D MGS 3 will be great! At least that will be out before the next TR. Give me something to play while I wait patiently.

jodman3
1st Aug 2003, 20:11
Originally posted by Zansky
Funny that you say Splinter Cell ran slow..considering that AOD couldn't hold a steady frame rate if it wanted to. Plus lets add in bugs...ah yes bugs. You say this game engine was so great...and the team did such a great job making it yet the game is loaded with bugs. Yes i understand how motion capture works...but if you want good hand animation AOD didn't have it. And 8000 polygons is a mistake dude. I think the guy ment to hit a 5 instead of an 8 when he was typing that preview. You contradict yourself... talking about realism with the way that Snake runs up stairs... then say that TR isn't realistic with the way that Lara jumps. Make up your mind. It makes sense that Snake can run up stairs fast... he is a super solider. Lara is just an "tomb raider" with no military training, also add in that shes a woman, and what do you get...slow running. But not just slow running...poorly animated slow running. AOD may have had more animations than SC and MGS2 combined, but they all sucked so what was the point.

As for the child comment...when your 3 years old sometimes it comes out :) You just don't get it! first the guy said that she was. It was a DEMO. Second AOD ran like that becausre that game was not finished. Third, snake nor riden were super soliders snake is a clone. They are just trained to sneak not blaze up the stairs like someone on fire. S.C. ran slow cause of the engine itself could not handle some effects. AOD ran slow cause of a glitchy engine. Even in it's glitchy state, it's still impressive. Once again i didn't say AOD engine way great , you putting words in my mouth again. i said it was better than mgs2, last time i checked that doesn't mean it was great. Although it would be great if they finished it. You are clearly blinded by your biased views, and i'm starting to believe you really do have the brain capacity of a three year old. The animations in AOD are really good, like the free climbing one or walking or climbing over stuff. They clearly look like mo-cap but they are not, hand done. I bet there are pleny of people who thinks that way. I never said that TR was ever realistic but mgs2 is supose to be, and some animations don't fit it. So how did i contradict myself? Although exagerated the animations in AOD are great. Man, that's was the funniest thing i've heard...super soliders. whew! Where do you come off sying that? Even core said she was supose to be exagerated and unrealisic. Hint, the huge breast, very skinny body, cartoon looking face. AND FOR THE RECORD, ALL OF SNAKE'S OR RAIDEN'S MOVES ARE TOO FAST!

moe888uk
1st Aug 2003, 22:10
To OBG(yn):D
"For the record I love MGS. MGS 3 will be great! At least that will be out before the next TR. Give me something to play while I wait patiently."

MGSes are the best.Is it out this december or something. I am so excited about 'Snake Eater'. I am really out of ideas of which game to play, all the games out there are either too similar or much inferior than what I am used to. The good ones are really hard to find. You got any suggestions, I will surely be trying out soul reaver 2 tomorow.