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PDenton
31st Jul 2003, 14:25
I can understand the ethical reasons to offering non-lethal options to get around people such as the prod and tranquiliser darts, but other than that is there any other reasons. :confused:

I've managed to complete the game without actually killing people (not including knocking them out). However other than being harder due to the lack of available non-lethal weapons and the reatively short range, it makes no other differences.

Does anyone here agree that there should be some advataged to doing it this way, for example you can wake someone up if you dart them to interrogate them or maybe Carter (or his IW counter part) would give you more money or ammo. What do you think? Do you agree with me? :D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
31st Jul 2003, 14:40
actually, there IS an advantage : if you manage to sneak enough in the statue, you get a STEALTH PISTOL. I found this exhilarating, really.

Hannibal
31st Jul 2003, 15:06
One advantage is that when you get to the later stages of the game, you can take out men and women in black without making them blow up, and they carry the best stuff.

I found that the non-violent approach is tough, but the game always manages to give you enough ammo, as long as you make good use of the baton.

Trollslayer
31st Jul 2003, 16:08
Evading combat and sneaking around would often give you:

-Better understanding of stealth and enemy AI pathways and field of view;
-Make you feel good with yourself by not killing 3D models which represent people :cool:
-Save ammo :D
-Some different NPC interaction outcomes, like with Carter or Paul.

PDenton
31st Jul 2003, 16:10
Originally posted by Hannibal
you can take out men and women in black without making them blow up, and they carry the best stuff.
Thanks I never thought to try knocking them out. I thought they would be like trying to desatroy a bot with a batton. :rolleyes:

From_God
31st Jul 2003, 18:34
I remember when i first realized its better to knock out the men/women in black. It was in the secret MJ12 base inside unatco. I let the greasels out and their poison spit knocked everyone out without the man in black exploding.

goody
10th Aug 2003, 17:09
Actually you get a stealth pistol whatever you do in the statue

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Aug 2003, 08:33
Actually you get a stealth pistol whatever you do in the statue

nope.

if you kill to many people, Carter says "no".

BrainPrawn
11th Aug 2003, 14:10
I don't know if we should call using those weapons "non-lethal"...

Did you ever see one of the bad guys wake up? :p

Trollslayer
11th Aug 2003, 14:13
Originally posted by BrainPrawn
I don't know if we should call using those weapons "non-lethal"...

Did you ever see one of the bad guys wake up? :p

Thats one of the reasons why i don't use them at all. To me they still coutn as takedowns.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Aug 2003, 14:32
yes, I think in DX:IW an inconscious ennemy should wake up after a while.

I mean, wwhen you half-prod someone, after a short time shaking, he wakes up again. why doesn't it happen when you prod him again?

BrainPrawn
11th Aug 2003, 14:44
Yeah, that would be cool.

You incapacitate an enemy and if you waste too much time in the area, he wakes up and then sounds the alarm.

Trollslayer
11th Aug 2003, 15:10
Soldiers in MGS2 can be woken up by their comrades. Anesthesiated characters in Hitman 2 can wake up and sound an alarm.

So stunned/sleeping enemies should either wake up after a certain period, and/or guards should raise their awareness levels or the alarms if they see a sleeping soldier.

One thing that could be included was the ability to make enemies sleep more according to the amount of tranquilizer darts shot at them (to a maximum of 4 so it could avoid excessive use of the trick). One dart might equal 2 minutes, 2 darts = 4 mintues, 3 darts = 6 minutes and 4 darts = 8 minutes.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
11th Aug 2003, 15:29
if you shoot more than 4 tranq darts in a soldier, there is a good chance you kill him. in that case, the stealth pistol or any melee weapon is better

another thing I found could be changed in DX:IW (although I found it very useful in DX1) is the fact the ennemy soldiers never crouch (except when shooting at you), so they never follow you in tunnels, ventilation pipes, etc. Castle clinton womes to my mind, even with 4 persons running after me and shooting at me, as soon as I could go into the pipe, and take the first turn, everybody stopped, and 30 seconds later I heard one of the NSF say "I guessed it's nothing"

and (but I already said that elsewhere), I would prefer the opponent not to be limited to the "run and shoot" strategy : if I can sneak, shoot from behind, hide in the shadows, etc, why can't they? (ok, they don't have JC's training, but it doesn't take Rambo to know that staying in the middle of the room, just shooting at the door is NOT the best tactic if you want to live)

Trollslayer
11th Aug 2003, 15:43
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
if you shoot more than 4 tranq darts in a soldier, there is a good chance you kill him. in that case, the stealth pistol or any melee weapon is better

another thing I found could be changed in DX:IW (although I found it very useful in DX1) is the fact the ennemy soldiers never crouch (except when shooting at you), so they never follow you in tunnels, ventilation pipes, etc. Castle clinton womes to my mind, even with 4 persons running after me and shooting at me, as soon as I could go into the pipe, and take the first turn, everybody stopped, and 30 seconds later I heard one of the NSF say "I guessed it's nothing"

and (but I already said that elsewhere), I would prefer the opponent not to be limited to the "run and shoot" strategy : if I can sneak, shoot from behind, hide in the shadows, etc, why can't they? (ok, they don't have JC's training, but it doesn't take Rambo to know that staying in the middle of the room, just shooting at the door is NOT the best tactic if you want to live)

You're right on that situation, of enemies not crouching. Another example is the hostage situation in the subway station. I could alert them, and the best they do would be to run around and shout the AI barks. Only one of them could hit me and it was the Flamethrower NSFer.

And on the rest of their reactions, i guess it comes down to a tradeoff. I would personally like to see the enemy AI tweaked in many aspects, and see it being a challenge - but lets not forget DX:IW like Spector said is attempting to be a mass-market reaching venture - the "mass market" doesn't like it when a game gives them realistic challenges. Enemies that could act smarter than the "casual gamer" would be sort of like an insult to said gamers.

Having enemies use the environments and the lighting to their advantage, plus actually interacting with said environment (crawling down ventilation shafts, climbing and descending ladders, execute combat formations and try to flush you out, or even strapping LAMs in places you might pass in realtime (so that the same LAM would not necessarily be there the first time, and might be on other passageways)), would be nice.

Catman
11th Aug 2003, 16:17
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
nope.

if you kill to many people, Carter says "no". I guess he must not count people killed by bots (unlike Paul, who is upset by the number of dead bodies, even if he killed a few).

gareis
11th Aug 2003, 18:17
Another interesting--and amusing--thing in DX1 was having several soldiers with assault guns shooting at you. Sometimes you could get them lined up in a row, and the only one you have to worry about is the rearmost one. The rest will end up dying as they all try to shoot you through each other.

That happened with the Chinese mafia types on the superfreighter. They started shooting, and one of them died before I could tag him with a dart.

~gareis
(Note: I was using that before I saw Alex Jacobson sign his email messages with "-alex-", but after I saw Muke sign his messages with "*Muke!")

PDenton
11th Aug 2003, 18:52
Originally posted by Trollslayer
One thing that could be included was the ability to make enemies sleep more according to the amount of tranquilizer darts shot at them (to a maximum of 4 so it could avoid excessive use of the trick). One dart might equal 2 minutes, 2 darts = 4 mintues, 3 darts = 6 minutes and 4 darts = 8 minutes.

Good Idea but maybe the times should be longer as it took about 2 minuted for the guy to go down in the first place!:rolleyes:

Trollslayer
11th Aug 2003, 20:31
Originally posted by PDenton
Good Idea but maybe the times should be longer as it took about 2 minuted for the guy to go down in the first place!:rolleyes:

That's true :p but then again they were regular sedatives, i believe. Not sleep-on-touch ;)

Hannibal
12th Aug 2003, 15:43
Originally posted by gareis
Another interesting--and amusing--thing in DX1 was having several soldiers with assault guns shooting at you. Sometimes you could get them lined up in a row, and the only one you have to worry about is the rearmost one. The rest will end up dying as they all try to shoot you through each other.

That happened with the Chinese mafia types on the superfreighter. They started shooting, and one of them died before I could tag him with a dart.

~gareis
(Note: I was using that before I saw Alex Jacobson sign his email messages with "-alex-", but after I saw Muke sign his messages with "*Muke!")

It was especially amusing when one of them had a plasma gun. Sometimes you could have one guy take two others and himself out with one of those :D