PDA

View Full Version : Hey I was just thinking...



hm_rules
26th Jul 2003, 07:12
What if Raziel were to kill Kain now.. what do you guys think would happen??

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 07:15
I am a firm believer that it will be Kain to take Raziel out before taking himself out, however if Raziel were to remove Kain from the equation, new Guardians would be born to serve the Pillars, the Pillars would then be restored (providing they can be restored), and the Soul Reaver blade would not be completed.

Omega
26th Jul 2003, 14:33
I'm not sure.

Out of LoK: I would imagine that because the damage has already been done in the past, killing the future Kain wouldn't accomplish anything anymore.

In LoK: Perhaps, for Nosgoth to be restored, the Guardians need to be killed one after the other...

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 15:28
what i think would happen is the land would continue to decay the reason is the pillars are meant to be served by vapires right so as long as humans are the ones being chosen to serve the pillars they will continue to decay. also with out kain they could never return the pillars to the vampires. the other thing that would happen is i think the hylden would be released upon nosgoth the reason behind this is that when kain refused the sacrafice he created a tear between nosgoth and the demon realm were the hylden are this released the SL so he could bring his army through is bo2 right well what if killing kain only opens the whole again. either way it does not matter because either way u look at it everyone wants kain dead everyone who is evil anyway right so if kain died nothing good would come of it.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 16:47
Originally posted by Omega
In LoK: Perhaps, for Nosgoth to be restored, the Guardians need to be killed one after the other...

I feel that this could be a possibility, hence why I mentioned *if* the Pillars could be restored. The design/mechanics of the Pillars hasn't really been fully disclosed at this point, and I am unsure if they will be. (This could prove to be a futile goal).

Anubis and I have tossed around the idea though, that the Pillars may not be able to be restored (however not too indepthly), and few (if anyone) is (are) aware of it.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 16:53
that may be true but i belive the pillars can be restored and the reason is kain is very smart not only that he has just as much knowlege about the past and the future as mobious does because he had acsess to the time room so i tend to belive that kain would not be wasting his time if there was no way of correcting the pillars. the soultuion is probably pretty simple kill mobious right at the beginning of sr2 when he says that was the one and only chance u would get. did any one ever think of that

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 17:07
At this point in time, the furthest thing from Kain's mind is restoring the Pillars. (He's concentrating on the *puppet masters*).

You seem to be forgetting also that Kain is the wild-card in this scenario. Whatever he changes in time, Moebius has to accomodate for, and vice versa. Again, the mechanics of the Pillars have not been fully disclosed at this point in time, therefore the possibility is plausible.

Also, say you do change the beginning of SR2 and take Moebius out of the picture. So? You still have the Elder waiting for his chance to strike, and the extent of his power certainly hasn't been disclosed at this point.

Vampmaster
26th Jul 2003, 17:16
If Raziel consumed Kains soul, it might never make it back to the pillar to allow it to choose a new guardian. Nosgoth would be doomed forever. I think their enemies wanted him to not think about that and just reave his soul when he kills kill Kain. At the moment Raz won't risk killing him at all. Anyway IMO, killing Kain with the Soul Reaver is a VERY bad idea.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 17:19
Originally posted by Vampmaster
If Raziel consumed Kains soul, it might never make it back to the pillar to allow it to choose a new guardian. Nosgoth would be doomed forever. I think their enemies wanted him to not think about that and just reave his soul when he kills kill Kain. At the moment Raz won't risk killing him at all. Anyway IMO, killing Kain with the Soul Reaver is a VERY bad idea.

I agree with this point as well, (especially if Raz were to be removed and the Reaver would fall into the wrong hands). However, I would like to raise the possibility of Raziel not even taking that into account at this point. (Meaning, I don't think he's aware of the consequences of reaving Kain would be).

Kain has done an excellent job at merely persuading Raziel not to dispose of him, without directly bringing that notion into account, but merely suggesting that there is a *bigger picture* to see. :)

EDIT: Slight grammatical adjustment.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 17:22
ya but u gotta admit it sure sound suspisous when mob says that was the one and only chance u get. if u ask me killing mob right then and there could not hurt things as far as what i said erlier ur right we still do not fully understand why the pillars are there but lets take a look at what we do know

1. the pillars are meant to be served by vampires right
2. the pillars are the lock and the reaver is the key (the lock to what) we dont know presumably it is the lock to the demon world were the hylden are. this can be supported by raz in sr2 at the light forge he says the pillars some how banshed of deminoshed there enemys some how.
3. kain is indeed woried about the righting the pillars this can be proven by what he says when he meets raz in the chamber of king william the just. he says this is were we reclaim are intended destinys raziel it may yet still be possibly for me to reclaim my place as balance gaurdian. he also speaks of returning the pillars to their rightful inheritors to the vampires. so i think that definatly discreadets ur theroy about restoring the pillars being the furthest thing from kains mind it appears to be the only thing on it. why do u think he went back in time in the first place not to reminice with mobious thats for sure. he went back to right the pillars

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 17:25
ur also right there i dont think raz nos exactly what will happen but he knows the out come will be bad either way. he was not only corused into sparing kain by kain mobious played a role in that as well did the eg.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 18:27
Originally posted by jasonxxx
ya but u gotta admit it sure sound suspisous when mob says that was the one and only chance u get. if u ask me killing mob right then and there could not hurt things as far as what i said erlier ur right we still do not fully understand why the pillars are there but lets take a look at what we do know

Believe me, this dialogue is far from the most *suspicious* in the games and barely a focus of my attention. We've already established that Moebius is a cunning individual, I have never disputed that, nor will I start. Of course, just because he is assisting the Elder in achieving the Elder's agendas, doesn't rule out the fact that Moebius has his own (which may differ entirely). I do not put it past Moebius to play his cards right for his own purposes.


Originally posted by jasonxxx
1. the pillars are meant to be served by vampires right
2. the pillars are the lock and the reaver is the key (the lock to what) we dont know presumably it is the lock to the demon world were the hylden are. this can be supported by raz in sr2 at the light forge he says the pillars some how banshed of deminoshed there enemys some how.


Welcome to the wonderful world of Propaganda. There are still aspects of this story that even Kain has yet to consider. Also, you're basing your arguments solely on the words of Janos Audron (whom Kain has yet to meet anywhere before BO2). I have already speculated on the intentions of Janos Audron on more than one occasion, and frankly I tire of repeating myself. (As I am sure others do). The information passed down from the Winged Ancients is biased. (Just as the information passed down by the Sarafan is biased). In order to further one's cause, you are going to use information which rallies support, not turns it away. The truth would turn the support away and no one would get anywhere. The vampires don't have the members to achieve global domination, especially when the Sarafan are hunting them. Just because words are spoken, does not automatically make them true.

I do believe Vorador said it best when he made mention of fairytales. :rolleyes:



Originally posted by jasonxxx
3. kain is indeed woried about the righting the pillars this can be proven by what he says when he meets raz in the chamber of king william the just. he says this is were we reclaim are intended destinys raziel it may yet still be possibly for me to reclaim my place as balance gaurdian. he also speaks of returning the pillars to their rightful inheritors to the vampires. so i think that definatly discreadets ur theroy about restoring the pillars being the furthest thing from kains mind it appears to be the only thing on it. why do u think he went back in time in the first place not to reminice with mobious thats for sure. he went back to right the pillars

You seem to be forgetting that Kain was also supposed to die in that instant and he talked his way out of it. He cheated his history and his destiny. Because of this, The Elder and Moebius have to accomodate the change-in-plans, and when they do, Kain will have to as well, and so on and so on. There are only so many sides of the story that can be foretold. Kain's destiny was to die and he didn't. Had he, he would not have a chance to alter his destiny, as he does now. This is where the *reclaiming* notion comes into play. Talk is cheap, while action is expensive. Kain has his own motives (reigning Nosgoth being the main one). The Pillars belonged to Winged Ancients that became vampires, that doesn't mean they were always vampires. They could've been demons, they could've been happy little puppies.:rolleyes: One thing about Kain, he doesn't lie, however he does choose to disclose that which will benefit him. Again, welcome to the wonderful world of propaganda.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 18:47
originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

Welcome to the wonderful world of Propaganda. There are still aspects of this story that even Kain has yet to consider. Also, you're basing your arguments solely on the words of Janos Audron (whom Kain has yet to meet anywhere before BO2). I have already speculated on the intentions of Janos Audron on more than one occasion, and frankly I tire of repeating myself. (As I am sure others do). The information passed down from the Winged Ancients is biased. (Just as the information passed down by the Sarafan is biased). In order to further one's cause, you are going to use information which rallies support, not turns it away. The truth would turn the support away and no one would get anywhere. The vampires don't have the members to achieve global domination, especially when the Sarafan are hunting them. Just because words are spoken, does not automatically make them true.

u speak as if u want the hylden to win now i relize it is just a game but come on. and as far as kain never haveing meet janos that is simple he has acsses to the time room so he new what would happen he never had to meet janos. this can be proven at the very begging of the game when he says i have seen the bigging and the end of our story and it is poorly scripted and illconsived. or what ever something like that. [/B][/QUOTE]

someguysteve
26th Jul 2003, 18:49
well if Raziel killed the future Kain as Moebius wanted then nothing would happen, because the pillars are too far gone. i don't think it would be possible for Raziel to kill the past Kain when the pillars could still be saved since he made Raziel and there would probably be a SR1ish paradox where striking Kain with the SR would just disappate it to the spectral realm or something.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 18:54
originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
You seem to be forgetting that Kain was also supposed to die in that instant and he talked his way out of it. He cheated his history and his destiny. Because of this, The Elder and Moebius have to accomodate the change-in-plans, and when they do, Kain will have to as well, and so on and so on. There are only so many sides of the story that can be foretold. Kain's destiny was to die and he didn't. Had he, he would not have a chance to alter his destiny, as he does now. This is where the *reclaiming* notion comes into play. Talk is cheap, while action is expensive. Kain has his own motives (reigning Nosgoth being the main one). The Pillars belonged to Winged Ancients that became vampires, that doesn't mean they were always vampires. They could've been demons, they could've been happy little puppies. One thing about Kain, he doesn't lie, however he does choose to disclose that which will benefit him. Again, welcome to the wonderful world of propaganda.

ur reasoning is flawd kain just changed his destiny back to what is was suposed to be because again in that scene kain says that the map of my fate was redrawn by mobious so inturn was yours. if mobious had not made kain go back in time and kill king william the just who nows what would have happened at the scene. mabey in stead of dying kain would have lived just like he did mobious chanded his destine and kain changed it back

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 19:00
Originally posted by jasonxxx
u speak as if u want the hylden to win now i relize it is just a game but come on. and as far as kain never haveing meet janos that is simple he has acsses to the time room so he new what would happen he never had to meet janos. this can be proven at the very begging of the game when he says i have seen the bigging and the end of our story and it is poorly scripted and illconsived. or what ever something like that.

I prefer interesting plotlines filled with twists and turns. Again, I've already made myself clear on what I believe (and want to see) transpire in this series (which you can look up at your own convenience). You've totally disregarded most of what I have put forth and frankly, you're beginning to waste my time with this straight-to-the-script logic (as you are not being open-minded enough to even consider speculation which deviates from the norm). Also, a lot takes place and changes between the beginning of SR2 and the end of SR2 (Kain avoiding death for the second time being a major point). Even the Chronoplast allows for a limited amount of plausible possibilities to be revealed. Kain is a wild-card and he's admitted searching for the possibilities that haven't been revealed. (Does the third side of the coin ring a bell?)

Simply put: Kain saw the beginning and the end and didn't like how things went down (to bring about that end) and therefore initiated the events which will change it.

EDIT:


Originally posted by jasonxxx
ur reasoning is flawd kain just changed his destiny back to what is was suposed to be because again in that scene kain says that the map of my fate was redrawn by mobious so inturn was yours. if mobious had not made kain go back in time and kill king william the just who nows what would have happened at the scene. mabey in stead of dying kain would have lived just like he did mobious chanded his destine and kain changed it back

Mine may be flawed, but I feel that yours is illogical and lacks imagination. When you can speculate on more than what has been established in the script, perhaps we'll get somewhere. Kain was supposed to sacrifice himself in BO1. What part of that is not clear to you? This was after Moebius re-routed things. Kain changed it again when he refused the sacrifice. And now (as I've said three times already) Moebius and the Elder had to compensate for that change and every other change that has been made. This is a circular battle until the ultimate goal of checkmate is achieved.


Originally posted by someguysteve
well if Raziel killed the future Kain as Moebius wanted then nothing would happen, because the pillars are too far gone. i don't think it would be possible for Raziel to kill the past Kain when the pillars could still be saved since he made Raziel and there would probably be a SR1ish paradox where striking Kain with the SR would just disappate it to the spectral realm or something.

I have expressed that the Pillars not being able to be restored is a likely possibility at this point. It all depends on what further information regarding the mechanics is disclosed.

I also believe you have your individuals backwards in this scenario. It was Kain who broke the reaver over Raziel's back, thus relasing the wraith blade.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 19:08
as far as being open minded i an very open minded i have never once said u are wrong for all i know u are wright but just like u i am also trying to get my point across. so try to keep the attack on my theries and not on my chatacter please. and as far as the twists go i dont really care what happens in the game i all im saying is that things have already played out in such a way that to deviate from that course does not make a whole lot of sence to me. i just dont understand plot twists are ok but u have to keep them with in reason. why dont u tell me how u think the story should play out then. how do u think it should end. but the endind has to make sence.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 19:25
First of all, I don't know if I am right or wrong, nor am I preaching gospel with my theories. If you think that, I think you need to re-evaulate a few issues.

I find it rather humorous that my theories and my reasoning can be flawed in your eyes, however yours can't be illogical and lacking imagination from my perspective. (How does this work exactly?) I have not attacked your character, only your theories and reasoning, just as you criticized mine. This forum is no place for little games of finger pointing, so I do trust that further melodrama will be excluded from your future posts, as it will be excluded from mine.

You've based everything that you have said on the actual game script. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that, however it does take a lot to persuade me, and without branching off from the script, you're just not doing that. My plot twists are very much within reason (in this thread and abroad), and I have done my part to point out aspects in the script (which appears to be the only way you're willing to believe anything) which contradict your notions.I'm sorry that you are not able to fully understand the logic behind my speculation however it is not my duty to cater to everyone in this forum. You either get it or you don't.

You appear to be of able mind and body, I am sure you can do some searching through many recent threads between this forum, the BO and SR forums to determine how I wish for things to play out.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 19:29
originally posted by umah bloodomen Mine may be flawed, but I feel that yours is illogical and lacks imagination. When you can speculate on more than what has been established in the script, perhaps we'll get somewhere. Kain was supposed to sacrifice himself in BO1. What part of that is not clear to you? This was after Moebius re-routed things. Kain changed it again when he refused the sacrifice. And now (as I've said three times already) Moebius and the Elder had to compensate for that change and every other change that has been made. This is a circular battle until the ultimate goal of checkmate is achieved. yes i understand that he was suposed to di or sacrafice himself. belive it or not i am very well versed in the lok world i do know enough to get by. now back to the topic. kain was suposed to sacrafice himself i dont think so he has and always will live through that event it was the gaurdians who wanted kain to sacrafice himself he was never suposed to die at that time it was not part of his destiny. but that is ok because the fact that he did not sacrafice him self does not change history or the future. now as far as mobious is concerned thing in the universe are not so simple. this is my reasoning the way things origonally went was
1. kain went back in time and killed king william the just right. (this move however was forced by mobious right.)
2.the death of king william results in the near extinctuion of the vampires right. that is what makes up kains mind not to sacrafice himself right. therfore he can not restore the balance pillar right.
3. therfore Kain fails at his destiny to be the balance gaurdian still with me. now all this was caused by mobious right.well what i was saying erlier was that is sr2 u are right kian was suposed to die. i agree with u but he talked his way out of it and lived thus undoing all of the things mobious did so all i was tring to say was that all kain did was change his path back so he could become the balance gaurdian again and be able to resore the pillars but he can not do it himself he will still need razs help right. so mabey the pillars casn be restored right.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 19:35
hey listen i never said u were right or wrong ur therioes are possible it just that what is more likly something that follows the script or something that deviates i dont understand what ur trying to prove with this arument so l will simplify it to one question do u want the pillars to be restored ruslting in the victory of kain, raz and all that or do want something completly wierd to happen like the hylden come in and take over relulting in the deaths of the vampires.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 19:48
hey u call me closed minded well why dont u look back at some of the more recent posts as i recall i am the only one out of the both of us who on several occations has admitted that u were right about some things yet i have not even hread u admit the possibility that i could be rigth once hhhmmmmmmmmm but im the one who does not have an open mind curious is it not.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Jul 2003, 20:06
Originally posted by jasonxxx
yes i understand that he was suposed to di or sacrafice himself. belive it or not i am very well versed in the lok world i do know enough to get by. now back to the topic. kain was suposed to sacrafice himself i dont think so he has and always will live through that event. but that is ok because the fact that he did not sacrafice him self does not change history or the future.

What do you mean you don't think so? Kain was supposed to die at the end of BO. He blatently refused after he figured out he was being used by everyone and their brother to do their dirty work. Kain refusing the sacrifice most certainly altered the future (how do you think Nosgoth became damned instead of thrived as it was supposed to?).


Originally posted by jasonxxx
now as far as mobious is concerned thing in the universe are not so simple.
this is my reasoning the way things origonally went was
1. kain went back in time and killed king william the just right. (this move however was forced by mobious right.)
2.the death of king william results in the near extinctuion of the vamoires right. that is what makes up kains mind not to sacrafice himself right. therfore he can not restore the balance pillar right.

Because the Nemesis was not allowed to become the Nemesis and Kain assassinated a boy king turning humanity against his race. All Moebius' plan. This is one (of many) instance(s) of where Kain was being played the fool. He was the unwilling pawn of others and their dirty work. Kain's decision not to sacrifice himself stems from these aspects (as a whole) and the discovery that he is the Balance Guardian and everything rested upon his shoulders. This obviously went to his head and he rebelled, throwing off everyone who was counting on him to die.


Originally posted by jasonxxx
3. therfore Kain fails at his destiny to be the balance gaurdian still with me. now all this was caused by mobious right.well what i was saying erlier was that is sr2 u are right kian was suposed to die. i agree with u but he talked his way out of it and lived thus undoing all of the things mobious did so all i was tring to say was that all kain did was change his path back so he could become the balance gaurdian again and be able to resore the pillars but he can not do it himself he will still need razs help right. so mabey the pillars casn be restored right.

Kain did not fail at his destiny, he grabbed it between the legs. He is the one choosing what actions to take, and exploring the possibilities which may arise from those actions. He did not undo anything Moebius did. William was still dead and Kain was still responsible during the beginning of SR2. (Which was 20 years after Kain went back to kill William in the first place) The anti-vampire sentiments continued, the race was still eradicated. Kain is still the Balance Guardian and he's going to need the completed Soul Reaver (blade) to be fully successful in accomplishing that which he wishes to accomplish before giving in to what he knows is inevitable.


Originally posted by jasonxxx
hey listen i never said u were right or wrong ur therioes are possible it just that what is more likly something that follows the script or something that deviates i dont understand what ur trying to prove with this arument so l will simplify it to one question do u want the pillars to be restored ruslting in the victory of kain, raz and all that or do want something completly wierd to happen like the hylden come in and take over relulting in the deaths of the vampires.

It all depends on the amount of propaganda involved. And for the last time search for my indepth opinion at your own convenience.


Originally posted by jasonxxx
hey u call me closed minded well why dont u look back at some of the more recent posts as i recall i am the only one out of the both of us who on several occations has admitted that u were right about some things yet i have not even hread u admit the possibility that i could be rigth once hhhmmmmmmmmm but im the one who does not have an open mind curious is it not.

First, you have been reported for continuing to bait me into retaliating against you in a non-constructive manner. With that out of the way, I will continue constructively.

You stated that you may be able to agree with what has been put forth, then immediately follow it up with your own notions which I contradicted on more than one occasion in this thread. I supported your notion of Moebius being suspicious and elaborated on it. I agreed that your usage of what was put forth in the script was said, and elaborated on it with the notion of propaganda as well as other information. I acknowledged what you have put forth and pointed out the missing information which you conveniently forgot to include. If I felt you could be right more than where I have acknowledged, I would tell you. I am not going to lie just to fuel your ego.

I have put up with this circular argument long enough. You're not going to be swayed by what I have put forth, just as I am not going to be swayed by what you've put forth. I am personally content with that and am moving on.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 20:10
that is fine with me

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 20:17
ok i have a question for u then if kain needs the soul reaver why did he stop raz soul from going into it i dont get it.

jasonxxx
26th Jul 2003, 20:19
hey i dont know if i would call it totally unconstructive i have lerned one or two thing that i had not thought of during the course of this argument

Vampmaster
26th Jul 2003, 20:31
If Kain had sacrificed himself, that means he never made Raziel into a vampire or a wraith. That in turn means Raziel can't lead the Sarafan to Janos. And that could mean Vorador never had a reason to attack the guardians. Therefore Ariel and Nupraptor are never chosen to replace there predecessors. Now, that means Nupraptor wouldn't have corrupted the circle, Kain wouldn't have become balance guardian, a vampire or needed to sacrifice himself. There could have been alternate reasons for this chain of events happening, but at the very least if Kain sacrificed himself Raziel wouldn't become a reaver of souls or the Soul Reaver. If that happened there would be no way for Moebius or Kain to change history. Kain couldn't sacrifice himself at the end of BO1. No, scratch that; he could have sacrificed himself. And doing so would take his means of changing history when he killed William, automatically nullifying his reason for refusing the sacrifice.

Zephonim
26th Jul 2003, 21:13
willl you 2 please pm each other about your right/wrong disputes ,,,,or just get a room!:D

and as to the stuff about kain doing this and that i agree with Vampmaster on this one (well i see what you mean and it's a possibility)

dklancer
27th Jul 2003, 00:49
If history can't be changed without the soul reaver, wouldn't that mean that Mobious wanted Kain to refuse to die?

Since Kain didn't have two reavers when he made the discision. :cool:

Vampmaster
27th Jul 2003, 12:57
Originally posted by dklancer
If history can't be changed without the soul reaver, wouldn't that mean that Mobious wanted Kain to refuse to die?

Yes it would.

Zephonim
27th Jul 2003, 22:15
Originally posted by dklancer
If history can't be changed without the soul reaver, wouldn't that mean that Mobious wanted Kain to refuse to die?

Since Kain didn't have two reavers when he made the discision. :cool:

Well its a possibility remember Kain did say there was 2 sides 1 he kills himself leaving the pillars whole ,new guardians are born and taken under the wing of squiddy and co then they rule Nosgoth,or Kain doesnt sacrifice himself and the pillars stay corrupt and the lock to the Demon dimension is weakened(if thats what it is)but Kain has a chance to change his destiny if he stays alive,so i think that moby didnt care what choice Kain made as he and the illustrious "They" thouhgt they would win whatever choice!
Cause they probably beleive they can compensate for every change commited by raz and kain now but its just My Opinion
http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/blobs/blk_md_wht.gif