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MobileEMP
25th Jul 2003, 03:06
If you have ever played counter-strike you will really know what im talking about. The first DX was raw, but i had one little qwirk with the AI characters: The way they react to your presence and attacks. They just kind of turn around and kneel, then fire. Also the torsos and the arms should move when they run and they should have faces like the ones used the the Quake III engine. Other than that I think its perfect.

SShadow
25th Jul 2003, 03:17
Mobile i am totaly with you here man! I agree that the AI's need some work. Great Idea.


~Shadow

TheDerf
25th Jul 2003, 03:53
Seriously, the NPC animations need work if this sequel is gonna fly. I got my friend playing this game, and he really enjoyed it except for one thing. A gold star for anyone who got the answer before reading the next sentence. Thats right, the character animation.

You kill someone/render someone unconscious and they "end" in one of three ways. I mean c'mon. If that wasn't bad enough, they make two of those three ways look horrible (the one excluded is blowing up someone). The two deaths aren't motion captured, or even animated in some remotely realistic way.

(i.e.) I shoot a guy in the head, he falls forward like a brick. I shoot a guy in the head, but from the opposite side, and he falls like a brick, but the other way.

I wouldn't mind seeing some motion capture in this game. If the animators have a hard time with character animation, hey, it wouldn't hurt anybody.

MobileEMP
25th Jul 2003, 16:46
second of all the AI does need some work

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 16:49
1) Last i read, the AI was being worked on.

2) Its obvious the death/takedown animations are improved. The new ragdoll physics allows for model collapse to be fairly varied.

Remember people, DX1 was made with technology available then (meaning, they used the UT engine), and with the tech available now, it'd be fairly strange if they used the same engine - which they aren't, as the IoSt folks are using UT2003's engine. So saying IoSt needs to make things better when they already said they are might be, er, redundant.

cball05
25th Jul 2003, 18:13
the funniest animation issue in DX1 was that when the body would drop it would treat the "floor" as wherever the feet were. That usually worked, but it looked ridiculous on stairs - the guy would fall back and stick out straight like a board from the staircase, mastering the arts of instant rigor mortis and levitation.

I heard DX2 was using the Havok engine for physics, which would be good - I've done some programming in shockwave with Havok and it looks very realistic.

yachimec
25th Jul 2003, 22:02
As far as I know, DX 2 is using havok for ingame physics, although I read somewhere (IGN, perhaps) that they've modified the engine.

The reason that the NPCs in DX1 behaved so strangely was that all characters were constructed out of cylinders, which were then filled with a 3D model. That's why when you throw something up and to the side of an NPC's head, it will hang suspended in the air, or seem to bounce off of nothing.

NPC base clothing models are all the same, too. If you take a look at Harley Filben, for example (or any other character with a short collar), you can see lines around the collar that extend upwards (this is most noticeable on bums).

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 22:40
Originally posted by yachimec
As far as I know, DX 2 is using havok for ingame physics, although I read somewhere (IGN, perhaps) that they've modified the engine.

The reason that the NPCs in DX1 behaved so strangely was that all characters were constructed out of cylinders, which were then filled with a 3D model. That's why when you throw something up and to the side of an NPC's head, it will hang suspended in the air, or seem to bounce off of nothing.

NPC base clothing models are all the same, too. If you take a look at Harley Filben, for example (or any other character with a short collar), you can see lines around the collar that extend upwards (this is most noticeable on bums).

And that was also the reason why you could not run under bots - a situation which will be corrected in DX2, afair.

And i noticed those lines too :D

MobileEMP
26th Jul 2003, 02:44
the lines were visible now that you told me about it, and it would be nice to have faces like in Medal of Honor where the mouths would actually move with the words being said. And running under bots would help alot.

Trollslayer
26th Jul 2003, 12:11
I believe Half-Life 2's way of moving character's mouths by modulating their movements according to the patterns off the sound files being read is interesting. I don't know if thats strictly integral to the Source Engine or is just an add-on to it - if its not, Warren could look into it and try to apply it onto DX2.

Mr.Tellurian
26th Jul 2003, 12:34
Actually I wouldn't mind if the Character animation in DX2 was not that perfect. Just as long as it isnt as crappy as with Morrowind...
And yeah I know the Ragdoll physics... I played Unreal2... They aren't flawless but quite nice.
The AI is IMO a much bigger problem and was one of the most flawed things with DX1. Together with the perception skills of the enemies that is. I remember some very awkward scenes in Splinter Cell where the NPCs had Superhuman perception when you hit a light switch 3 doors away but didn't recognized it when you shot their buddy standing a few feet away from them down.
The worst thing about perception in DX was that it was impossible to snipe down groups larger than 1. Reason: Whenever you shot and killed bogey#1, bogey#2 knew EXACTLY where you were, no matter the distance.
But I don't think the flaws of part one will be handed down to part two... I mean this is Deus Ex and not GTA...

Trollslayer
26th Jul 2003, 13:02
One of the flaws of DX1 was really the AI. The 2 things that annoyed me the most were:

1) Tripping an infrared alarm and have all the nearby enemies run there. This was specially visible in the first mission on Liberty Island, where i could trip the infrared sensors right in the passageway that lead to Gunther's cell, and you'd see 3 or 4 NSF troopers run to the spot :eek: This of course allowed me to place a small box of TNT, and, when they got there to see the problem... well, lets say the end result was... messy :evil grin:

2) Their sometimes awkward point of view. Again on the first mission i remember that during one of my "kill no one" runs, i was crouching in the dark room that led to the hallway that in turn led to G's cell, and not only did the room-specific guard faced me and did not see me, but the patrolling guard passed by me by some scant milimeters and also did not noticed me. I also managed to ilude the guards on several occasions by shooting darts at positions behind them, and the noise made them look at the dart, but not search from where it had been shot (in fact that was how i passed by the two UNATCO troopers and MIB in the Vandenberg Base). I also managed to shoot some darts at the nearby wall behind some guards, make them look back, and engage in conversation with the NPCs right next to them :eek:

Yup, it had its weak moments...

PDenton
26th Jul 2003, 16:00
What I found annoying was that after you had allerted the guards, they always knew exactly where you were. I mean if you were several hundred meters away with a sniper rifle from the roof of a building they would instantly know where you were. They were also able to shoot you with incredible accuracy, I mean who can kill someone from sniper rifle distance with a machine gun !?!

Then if you did outrun them or get into a crouch space, they would give up. However they just went back to as they were before. Ion Storm could probably make the game a lot better if they made the gaurds more alert after they had just seen you, for example watching closer so you couldn't move as easily, or maybe discharging random shots into the shadows.

Finally some of the coments they come up with are so funny!! I mean how many homless guys do you know that wander around with a machine gun!?!:rolleyes:

Mr.Tellurian
26th Jul 2003, 17:27
The funniest thing concerning comments was with Splinter Cell.
"I heard something!" *sam remains undiscovered*
"Maybe it was just a shadow..."

Big Ragu
26th Jul 2003, 17:44
Originally posted by Trollslayer
I believe Half-Life 2's way of moving character's mouths by modulating their movements according to the patterns off the sound files being read is interesting. I don't know if thats strictly integral to the Source Engine or is just an add-on to it - if its not, Warren could look into it and try to apply it onto DX2.

I believe it is integral with the Source engine.