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nacr0mancer
23rd Jul 2003, 17:27
Deus Ex was awsome and i'm sure second one willl rock, but i was thinking and somwething came into my mind, like would't be cool if u can target 2 enemy's at the same with dual pistols, or plant an explosive device on a door and blow it into enemys. I also think hacking should be more fun something like game UPLINK or ENTER THE MATRIX. Stuff like that would be cool, any other ideas?

Big Ragu
23rd Jul 2003, 21:14
The ability to change the rate of fire would be nice.

Random
24th Jul 2003, 00:26
The dual pistol thing sounds like something more suited to Max Payne 2 than Deus Ex 2. ;) I like the idea of blowing doors into people though. Hopefully the physics engine is coded so flying objects do damage to enemies. I remember an interview where a developer described a situation of launching a rocket at a bot, the bot flying back into a stack of crates, the the burning crates collapsing down around it. So hopefully that applies to normal enemies too. ;)

nacr0mancer
24th Jul 2003, 01:11
yep, hopefully

Virus
25th Jul 2003, 04:02
Hmmm....Wouldnt it be cool if you could aim each pistol manually instead of auto targeting?

I think you should be able to have two mice, one for each pistol. They would both have a whole bunch of buttons on them so you could use the mice to move and all the other game controls. But thats probably a LONG ways from happening to any game...

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
25th Jul 2003, 07:50
again a thread about dual pistol?

Leo
25th Jul 2003, 14:54
add a map feature!

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 15:16
Originally posted by Virus
Hmmm....Wouldnt it be cool if you could aim each pistol manually instead of auto targeting?

I think you should be able to have two mice, one for each pistol. They would both have a whole bunch of buttons on them so you could use the mice to move and all the other game controls. But thats probably a LONG ways from happening to any game...

And unless you managed to use the movement arrows with your toes or your nose, you'd just stand there, flailing away with your both arms, receiveing enemy fire because you had no more hands to control movement. But hey, it'd be cool right? :rolleyes:

C'mon people, lets use our heads.

MobileEMP
25th Jul 2003, 17:27
IF they put in dual pistols, and if u used them, they should auto target the enemies as the secondary attack, right?

Virus
25th Jul 2003, 17:30
Trollslayer::


Originally posted by Virus
They would both have a whole bunch of buttons on them so you could use the mice to move and all the other game controls.


I covered that.... If you had a movement thumb buttons on the mice you could pull it off. I never said they wouldnt have to create special mice for such a purpose. I WAS just dreaming.

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 18:02
Originally posted by Virus
I covered that.... If you had a movement thumb buttons on the mice you could pull it off. I never said they wouldnt have to create special mice for such a purpose. I WAS just dreaming.

But it'd be very hard. You see, it'd be as hard as succesfully aiming and firing two pistols at the same time in real life. Just as not everyone has the same coordination to effectivelly use two weapons simultaneously (and the way games like Max Payne remedy this is by having the hero always being able to aim and fire flawlessly with unwavering arms, which i'd wager is what draws 90% of the gaming crowd to the "dual pistols iz teh k3wl" ideology), using two mice would be equally hard.

And why would it be hard? You'll see that usually when you're engaged in a heavy firefight in an FPS, you need to make fast moves. Many times, you have to make 180 degrees (or in rare instances, 360) to get enemies behind you, or that are vulching around you. Now, this is easy to do with one mouse - the direction you slide it to is the direction your PoV will go to. Now imagine this with two mice.

First it'd be hard because you would control two arms. And as you see two hands, attached to but independant, you'd have to practice to have both mice to turn to the same direction, not to their own. Its hard enough targetting an enemy behind you quickly, much more targetting one with two hands. If he was just standing smack in front of you, that's be easy - but if he runs behind and shoots, you shouldn't be surprised if you found yourself turning your left mouse to the left and the right one to the right, making turning difficult (if not impossible). This is mainly due to balance issues, and perception, mostly.

Second, even if you'd manage to target the enemy effectivelly, you'd still have the movement part. A mouse is used because of its slick design, ease of use and functionality. There is a reason why you have standard mice like 3 buttons, two buttons and a central roller button, and the off-the-path version with a button on the lower left side on FPSs. Its because you don't need more than that. One button alone is used to fire, and the movement of the mouse enables your to look around. All other buttons mice give you are for added functionality like Alt-Fire, or Zooming, or weapon cycling.

Now imagine you'd get a mouse with movement buttons. You'd get a mouse with 2 buttons (left and right triggers), central wheel mouse (which is also a button in itself), and 4 other buttons... where would you put them? Would you be able to handle them with one hand only? What about moving and looking at the same time? What about moving, looking, firing and moving 2 mice like this at the same time? :eek: :eek: Because honestly, how many people would be able to utilize about 4 fingers to work with 6 to 7 buttons almost simultaneously, and with both hands (considering many people do not use their left hands for precise actions, which would make playing a game like that almost an entirely new learning experience) ?

Yup, troublesome. And after all this, you'd prolly realize you'd need more space for the movement buttons. And then you look at your lovely keyboard and notice 4 directional buttons, just waiting to be pressed ;) Mice don't have those directional buttons simply because it becomes cumbersome and removes the sleek functionality and ease of use they should give players (and also, because there isn't a need to it).

Now what do you mean by a movement thumb? If its a directional pad that moves by use of your thumb on it, good luck controlling it. It would also be hard to implement, unless you'd place it under the palm of the user (sitting in the middle of the mouse, which would make the user need to play with their hand slightly up, losing sensibility), or with an added plastical part to place the directional button (which would need a focus and quick swapping of mouse parts which would also prolly hamper gameplay).

With many buttons, it would be very difficult to use it properly. Thats why the buttons are separated from the mouse and we use the keyboard+mouse config :)

I have nothing against you dreaming, though :D But with the problems it poses, reality sure sounds sweet :D

Cheers.

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 18:03
Originally posted by MobileEMP
IF they put in dual pistols, and if u used them, they should auto target the enemies as the secondary attack, right?

Hence, that's the reason why they shouldn't insert dual pistols. If i wanted to have my aiming handled for me i'd go play generic FPSs. Given DX2 isn't such....

cball05
25th Jul 2003, 18:20
Originally posted by Virus
I think you should be able to have two mice, one for each pistol.

How about an aug that allows you to temporarily grow a third arm and then you can use three mice (hope you have a friend over) to control three different weapons simultaniously, allowing you to lockpick a door while sniping the guy on your left and rocketing the bot on your right!

What if you could grab a bar overhead and shoot with your feet like a monkey...or even better, TRAIN a monkey and control him too!

Sorry, got carried away. :p

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 19:55
LMAO!! :D :D :D

Virus
26th Jul 2003, 03:17
Well, uh, gee people when you put it that way I guess it DOESNT sound like such a great idea. I mean who can rebut something 7 paragraphs long? Oh wait....I Can.



You see, when I said the mouse would need some improvement, I meant that in the drastic sence. Ever seen those controls made specifically for the wasd config? Well say you took all the keys of the keyboard that one would use in the game (the easily accesible ones). You could then put that in a sleek fasion on top of a mouse, and have the lower part of your hand resting on it, so you could move the mouse. Now here we would treat the left hand as strictly a SECONDARY weapon. In other words, the right hand still controls screen movement, while the left hand is for ONLY if you wanted to target two people at once. Now you say that this would be accesively hard to do, but I think you underestimate the ability of a gamer. People can get used to everything if they put enough time into it, and they will. Obviously a person cannot sit there and be firing at two people at once every second of a game, because that would put any people who play with just one weopon at the advantage. So to make the double weapon config be actually an ADVANTAGE you would have to put a switch somewhere on a mouse which would lock, or unlock, the left mouse. This way, at certain times, you could have the left crosshair lined with the right one, so you wouldnt have to deal with two different crosshairs. When the time is necessary however, you could unlock the left crosshair, allowing you to move that one freely making it possible to aim with that second mouse where you want to. This way you could quickly lock and unlock the crosshair, getting just quick shots in on the second target , untill the first one is killed.

The purpose of this configuration, is not to make a game EASIER to play, but mostly just to make it have more possibilites, and better realism. A player that doesnt want to have such a possibility would not use such a configuration, but I on the other hand WOULD.

You just watch. Someday some computer programer is going to look at this thread and the next month youl have this configuration on the market.

Now then...Ill be awaiting your no doubt lengthy and informative rebuttle, trollslayer. :D

Trollslayer
26th Jul 2003, 12:06
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Virus
You see, when I said the mouse would need some improvement, I meant that in the drastic sence. Ever seen those controls made specifically for the wasd config? Well say you took all the keys of the keyboard that one would use in the game (the easily accesible ones). You could then put that in a sleek fasion on top of a mouse, and have the lower part of your hand resting on it, so you could move the mouse. Now here we would treat the left hand as strictly a SECONDARY weapon. In other words, the right hand still controls screen movement, while the left hand is for ONLY if you wanted to target two people at once. Now you say that this would be accesively hard to do, but I think you underestimate the ability of a gamer.

No i don't believe i'm underestimating gamer skills, though i honestly believe you're overestimating them. Here's why.

From what i can understand on your idea, you're saying you're imagining a mouse with a WASD system on top of it. Thats fine and dandy. But, what is usually on top of a mouse? Your hand. The palm of the hand sits comfortably on top of the mouse, its weight allowing you to swiftly move the mouse about. Now imagine you were placing the directional WASD buttons there. You'd have to play with your hand slightly up. You'd need your thumb supporting the left side of the mouse, and one other finger supporting the right part of the mouse. You'd also have to use one finger for each mouse trigger.

Now go to this site.

http://www.anzwers.org/free/herzogzwei/

(and excuse my Photoshop skills as i'm half-asleep)

The usual usage of a mouse is the Example image 1.

The way you seem to be refering to the mouse WASD implementation is the Example image 2.

Now tell me if that's it. You'll have only one finger supporting one of the sides of the mouse, plus one finger for each trigger - but to avoid pressing the directinal button where your palm usually rests, you have to hold the mouse and press its triggers without the same kind of ease of use you'd have. You'd have to use it constantly like the Example image 3 shows.

Notice the space? Try using your mouse like this (assuming you're using the right hand):

Thumb to the left side, 4th finger to the right side, index finger for left trigger, and middle finger for right trigger. Now, place your fingers in those spots, and, without taking them away, raise the palm of your hand so that the palm doesn't touch the mouse's upper part. Thats what you have to do just to avoid touching the directional buttons.

Now, while keeping your right hand in the mouse, place your left hand under the palm of your right hand and above the mouse (in the space between both). Now imagine you have 4 directional buttons at the top of the mouse. Now imagine every single furious scene you've been trough in every FPS you've ever played. Now imagine having to repeat it again, with your right hand exercising 50% (and i'm being generous) of control over the mouse's weight to look and aim around, your left hand crumpled and without-much-room-for-maneuver to move around, and the weight of the mouse itself because it now has 4 extra keys. I'm not even considering a wheel button.

The result, without a doubt, is W T H ??? If you imagine two mice doing this and being used simultaneously, you'd have a colossal W T F. You'd need 4 arms, at best.

And after all that, the player might look at the mouse and say "that's nice", but its not comfortable. For example, why do you think the Sega Saturn US gamepad flunked? I'll give you a hint: look at the Playstation Pad, at the XBox Pad, or even a PC Sidewinder (hell, look at the Japanese SS gamepad). Ease of control. Ease of use. It fits your hand like a glove (specially the Sidewinder, for a PC pad). The SS pad failed tremendously because it had not ease of use. Sure you could get used to it, but it was not built for ease of use, which ended up with quite a few number of gamers importing Japanese SS pads, much to Sega of America's dismay.

And even then, the SS pad did better than the imaginary mouse because it does not situate the control/action/movement buttons on the same space.

You also mention a locking feature for mouse movement, so that would be an extra flipping button for both mice? :eek:

So why would a player spend more money on a mouse which is a mouse+WASD system on its own, when it can either a) stick to the fail-proof mouse+keyboard config, or 2) buy a mouse (which at one point stops being a mouse and becomes a table gamepad) specifically designed for that?

Its easy to dream with these kinds of mice, but to figure it out why they wouldn't work is harder. Though essentially i believe the quickest and simplest way of saying it would be your idea fails because the player would not feel comfortable having all the needed buttons thrown into something as small as a mouse. Not only that, but the maneuverability the player would have in reaching said buttons would be drastically cut down. One hand barely can move the mouse because it cannot interfere with the other hand, and the other hand barely has any space to fiddle with directions.

Just so you won't think i have anything against you, i did searched the net over other configurational mouses.

The Nostromo n30: http://www.viewz.com/aol/gameguide/hardware/nostromon30.shtml

The TacticalBoard: http://www.lanparty.com/articles/tacticalboard/

So as you see, one of these babies already stops being a mouse. In fact, go here:

http://gear.ign.com/hardware.html

and scroll down to see several devious Mice designs - afair, none has buttons on their top.

To summarize, i'm not saying its impossible to do what you suggest - i'm saying it'd fail tremendously because of design issues. Other configurations are certainly possible (the above links show this), but yours, unfortunately, would fail because we cannot please the gaming community with a periphal that jams buttons into unappropriate areas, which is what your design does.

Cheers. :D

[NOTE: Apparently the first 3 links didn't work well, so i linked directly to the site and not the pictures - perhaps direct linking to the pictures was the problem :rolleyes: ]

Big Ragu
26th Jul 2003, 17:35
I got it!

You need 4 big directional buttons under your feet! Since your using every other limb on your body, why leave the legs out? Just put your foot on the left to go left, up to go up, etc. :rolleyes:

cball05
26th Jul 2003, 17:42
Originally posted by Big Ragu
Just put your foot on the left to go left, up to go up, etc. :rolleyes:

You put your left foot in, you put your right foot out, you do the hokey pokey...oh wait that was something else.

Person 1:What are you playing? Dance Dance Revolution?
Person 2:No, Deus Ex 2.

Virus
27th Jul 2003, 10:44
I can guaruntee to you, trollslayer, and anyone else that is reading this forum, that I have a full out responce to your problems with my "device". I infact think that you have the wrong idea of my left handed mouse, but I am sorry to say that I do not have the time to write it out. Im going on vacation for 10 days and when im back ill give you your responce.

ciao

Trollslayer
27th Jul 2003, 11:25
Originally posted by Virus
I can guaruntee to you, trollslayer, and anyone else that is reading this forum, that I have a full out responce to your problems with my "device". I infact think that you have the wrong idea of my left handed mouse, but I am sorry to say that I do not have the time to write it out. Im going on vacation for 10 days and when im back ill give you your responce.

ciao

Its not so much the fact of just me having problems with your device; its that, given what you implied about the design, you wouldn't find many people that would be able to use that mouse in a right way (if at all). I wouldn't have a problem with the device if the device wasn't impractical.

And i admit i may have the wrong idea about your left handed mouse - mainly because you didn't explained it well, as you only mentioned the right one, plus its WASD configuration, plus its toggle (and the possibility of using two mice) :(

But sure, i'll be waiting.