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snake
17th Jul 2003, 00:02
I am so dissapointed from AOD. Tomb raiders have given me moments of hapiness in the past but now... Why should they change the two basic things in the game which made it number one????? THE GAMEPLAY and THE ENVIROMENT? To be honest I havent played that all yet but believe me I saw the big differences. Changes should take place in sequels but you cannot change the hole game like that. It s a shame because we will have to wait for a good game until next year if the disigners decide to listen to the nostalgics of the real tomb raiders. May be I m old and cannot accept so many changes or may be I should sell my ps 2. I dont know. I will be back soon.

salvestrom
17th Jul 2003, 00:10
Keep playing, Tomb Raider IS in there somewhere.

They changed ALOT and in one go. Bound to take people off guard.

There's nothing wrong with the game itself. No, not enough tombs. No, I want dual pistols too. And camera control back and lots of other things that people have been mourning the loss of up and down these boards. But the game is simply not finished. And that shouldn't be confused with whether it's any good.

I enjoyed fighting hand to hand, stealth attacks, using the shot gun to blow back the undying sentinels off a ledge. And kicking the ones in Eckhardt's Lab into the water which kills them.

The best moment was when I got too cocky about knocking the sentinels off and while I was busy trying to go toe to toe nearly ended up being the one that fell off the ledge.

Enjoy. It can be done. Honest :)

Sal.

Raven
17th Jul 2003, 05:43
A review in a gaming magazine I bought criticised AoD for being too old hat and not different enough from previous TR games. Just goes to show that no matter what the developers come up with, they'll never please everyone.
But snake, don't worry, just keep going and you will find yourself in more tomb-y locations soon enough.
That said, it has to be remembered that older games such as TR2 and 3 didn't have many tombs in them at all.

XanderD2
17th Jul 2003, 06:35
Originally posted by Raven
That said, it has to be remembered that older games such as TR2 and 3 didn't have many tombs in them at all.

Fortunately. When TR4 was announced I almost cried out loudly: 'Oh no, not those musty tombs again." :) TR3 was quite a refreshing change in that respect. But I did enjoy the Hall of Seasons with its traps and puzzles.

GoranAgar
17th Jul 2003, 06:58
Originally posted by XanderD2
But I did enjoy the Hall of Seasons with its traps and puzzles.
I really don't have a clue how people who played the Hall Of Seasons can say there is no Tomb Raider in AOD!

I simply don't get it.

RebeL_fARmeR
17th Jul 2003, 12:13
Hall of Seasons was goooooooood... the perfect metaphor for the 6th form I attended!

snake
17th Jul 2003, 14:56
:( What on earth did the team of Tomb raider creation thinking??
Com on you people dont you see? Tomb raider is over. With AOD they threw in the garbage one of the best games.
If they changed the main heroen Lara in AOD ,people whould say: OK this is a good new game with elements borrowed from metal gear, resident evil, tomb raider and some beat them ups, but it remains a game with no identity of its own.
I have played lots of games but I never found Tomb raider' s CONTROLS, with which you could do everything. It was so enjoying! Instead of that we have a week lady who cannot do anything, she falls easily and she is almost uncontrollable. This analog stick is so useless! If creators needed changes they could add the stealth and kick movements to the ones which already existed. Don t forget that TR games where action- adventure -platform not stealth or shooter or beat them up. Now its nothing.
Where are the unlimited ammo of the two pistols? Where are these fine medikits? Dont tell me about realism because no game is realistic. Games would be very difficult and no enjoyable if they were realistic. And where are these vehicles she used to drive? The quick running? Her strenght? She screams on each corner she stucks. And I dont think we need a macho man instead of Lara.
The enviroments are ok. May be it would be better if there wasnt so much loading between the areas.
For the story I m not ready to express my opinion yet.
Music should be more smooth and inspired ,not so modern.
Even the bugs I forgive because its a game for new generation consoles and such things happen in the beggining.
THE CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY SHOULDNT HAVE MADE SO MANY UNWANTED CHANGES. We dont make changes just to say that we make changes. We make only the needed and GOOD changes. We dont change the good stuff to create worse.
I forgive almost everything in this game except the CONTROLS.
I ve never been so disappointed from a game as I am now. I only hope that the creators will take into consideration what most people believe about the game and if they are smart enough they will make the nessesary changes and give us a good genuine tomb raider 7. Otherwise bye -bye Lara.

PS. Dont tell me its a good game and bla bla. I agree its a good game but no tomb raider . I WANT THE TOMB RAIDER BACK!!!!!!!

I will be back.

Mangar The Dark
17th Jul 2003, 15:09
Originally posted by salvestrom
But the game is simply not finished. And that shouldn't be confused with whether it's any good.



Please, don't encourage Eidos that way! I can just picture TR7:
We’ll boot it up and there will be a title screen: “Lara Croft Tomb Raider” and there will be a catchy subtitle underneath. Anxiously, we press the start button, and BOOM, we get kicked back to the Windows desktop. The justification from Eidos? “Well, we had some REALLY great ideas, you know, we just didn’t finish them. So, you can’t say it’s not a good game, it’s just… well... not quite there yet.”

D3v1L80Y
17th Jul 2003, 16:39
LOL at Mangar:D

owen10
17th Jul 2003, 17:01
Originally posted by snake
I have played lots of games but I never found Tomb raider' s CONTROLS, with which you could do everything. It was so enjoying! Instead of that we have a week lady who cannot do anything, she falls easily and she is almost uncontrollable.
You either haven't played the game, or are exceptionally bad at playing it. In general, the control scheme is very similar to the original games. The major alteration of perspective sensitive controls works well enough, and the analogue stick makes changing direction easy, negating the roll and twisting somersaults of previous instalments. It's not as responsive as past instalments, but a situation where you need it to be never arises.

I get the impression from a number of people here that they haven't played many other modern console games, and as such find the adoption of the analogue stick alone reason to kick up a fuss. This alone shows just how dated Tomb Raider has become, where we should cling to the past to satiate such fans.

susan
17th Jul 2003, 17:27
Originally posted by owen10
You either haven't played the game, or are exceptionally bad at playing it. In general, the control scheme is very similar to the original games. The major alteration of perspective sensitive controls works well enough, and the analogue stick makes changing direction easy, negating the roll and twisting somersaults of previous instalments. It's not as responsive as past instalments, but a situation where you need it to be never arises.

I get the impression from a number of people here that they haven't played many other modern console games, and as such find the adoption of the analogue stick alone reason to kick up a fuss. This alone shows just how dated Tomb Raider has become, where we should cling to the past to satiate such fans.

The PS2 controls are not the same as previous versions, even if you position the camera so that it is constantly behind her...although if that is the best way to play the game why didn't they just make the camera follow her as before and not make it perspective sensitive...ponders that thought...hmmm, getting a little bit more like the old controls.

Sometimes old is not synonomous with dated, sometimes it means tried/trusted/working...

You don't have to be exceptionally bad at playing it (or other games) to not like or rate these controls. I've played plenty of games with analogue controls on PS2 and Gamecube and got used to them. I got used to the AoD controls quite quickly because of this, BUT they are not better than the old controls. Lara is not as agile, does not have the moves and is not as controllable as previous games. This is because they've switched the controls.

It doesn't matter how well they configure the analogue controls they are never as good for sensitive, delicate movements as the D-pad simply because they're too flexible....small push - whoops!

I don't get how people like you think these controls are better - better for what? What does Lara do better now that she didn't do before?

I think of analogue 2D controls as controls for people who need instant results. It always feels wrong to me no matter the number of games I play like this. The old TR controls aren't as "easy" for first timers but the pay-off in terms of control and immersion once you're used to them is enormous.

IMO. ;)

D3v1L80Y
17th Jul 2003, 17:28
I agree. I have several other titles for PS2 and I also own an X-box. Both consoles rely heavily on the analog. I too was a fan of the older control scheme for TR....and it was a major gripe of mine that the new TR went to full analog. I was outraged! Well it wasn't that bad and I quickly became accustomed to the analogs for TR, as I play several other games where it is the only option. I have since gone back and attempted to play my old TR games and what a difference!! The D-pad configuration really really really............................SUCKS. I found myself itching for the sticks and nothing happening...or in the case of some of the newer TR games, the analog was atrocious compared to how it is now...and again the D-pad just plain sucks now. I am now glad that the controls were updated...it really is easier than the older system.

owen10
17th Jul 2003, 17:34
Originally posted by Susan
I've played plenty of games with analogue controls on PS2 and Gamecube and got used to them. I got used to the AoD controls quite quickly because of this, BUT they are not better than the old controls. Lara is not as agile, does not have the moves and is not as controllable as previous games. This is because they've switched the controls.
You yourself admit that you adopted the controls quickly as a result of your experience with other modern console games. I didn't once claim that the new control scheme is better than earlier instalments'. The old configuration is tried and trusted, but equally dated. You can't deny it. The adoption of the analogue stick is belated, while its utilisation is merely average.

T_Rex
17th Jul 2003, 17:47
Originally posted by snake
... this is a good new game with elements borrowed from metal gear, resident evil, tomb raider and some beat them ups, but it remains a game with no identity of its own.

... Don t forget that TR games where action- adventure -platform not stealth or shooter or beat them up. Now its nothing.
Where are the unlimited ammo of the two pistols? Where are these fine medikits? Dont tell me about realism because no game is realistic. Games would be very difficult and no enjoyable if they were realistic.

... Music should be more smooth and inspired ,not so modern.

...We dont make changes just to say that we make changes. We make only the needed and GOOD changes.

...if they are smart enough they will make the nessesary changes and give us a good genuine tomb raider 7. Otherwise bye -bye Lara.

...I WANT THE TOMB RAIDER BACK!!!!!!!


Sorry for paraphrasing, but I agree with what you have to say Snake. Tomb Raider is gone. As far as I am concerned, Lara Croft died in the pyramid at the end of The Last Revelation. While the Hall of Seasons level was classic tomb-raiding style, that doesnt make up for the rest of the 80% of the game that is not. If I wanted to play Splinter Cell or MGS, I would buy those games. But I want to play Tomb Raider! Raiding tombs! For the creators of Tomb Raider to go with the 'flavor of the month' is throwing away all the tradition and uniqueness that the Tomb Raider games of past have had.

I like what Snake said about the music. I would like to add to that: Tomb Raider doesnt need non-diagetic looped music for 100% of the gameplay! The only 'music' we needed in the past Tomb Raider games was looped sound effects of empty caverns cracking and bugs chirping in the backround. Only occasional music was needed. And, I noticed that the looped music in AOD isnt even looped very well. There are defininte points in the music where it skips to begin the loop again. I am very familiar with digital sound and sound editing, and it is very careless for someone to loop a sound incorrectly. Expecially for such a big budget project as AOD.

I've already posted about the realism of Tomb Raider. Check the thread "Arent video games suppose to be fun? / Is AOD too realistic?"

Otherwise, we have lost a true video game herione.

snake
17th Jul 2003, 22:48
May be you didnt actually understood what I meant. It s not the analog itself that sucks. In other games such as mgs analogue is a must. Lara doesnt respond immediately to the analog plus you have to correct the camera in order to jump to the right direction and avoid falling.
Except the analog problem, sometimes I get the impression that I cannot control her 100% as I used to. Where is the precision of the jumps when you knew that if you pressed the buttons correctly she would do her movements perfectly. It s not the same now. For instance, if you go near the rails and look at them she climbs them on her own and if its the third floor, boom! I would prefer doing all the movements on my own. Its too bad that so many beatiful movements are wasted. No more quick running in front of crazy stones, no more left and right jumps to avoid enemies ,no more quick descending from the ladders, no more many things.
As for some of your comments, I have played enough of the game to have certain opinion.
About the ecxeptionally bad player, I didnt say I cant play it. I said I DONT ENJOY THE CONTROLS AND MOVEMENTS AS I USED TO.
And a final question for you: What is your favorite tomb raider from TR1 to AOD? I would appreciate an honest answer.
BYE FOR NOW.

owen10
17th Jul 2003, 23:26
I largely agree with you, and I obviously misinterpreted your initial post.

My favourite Tomb Raider is either 1 or 4. The Last Revelation is probably the better game, with its polished graphics, well crafted environments and interesting puzzles, but the first was new and original with some timeless moments. Push came to shove, I'd probably say 4 though. :)

snake
17th Jul 2003, 23:31
Thanks for the answer my friend.

numb
18th Jul 2003, 00:27
The PS2 controls are not the same as previous versions, even if you position the camera so that it is constantly behind her...although if that is the best way to play the game why didn't they just make the camera follow her as before and not make it perspective sensitive...ponders that thought...hmmm, getting a little bit more like the old controls.

i just began replaying 'lost artifact', & nothing but nothing leaps out at you right away like the ease of control having the camera automatically follow lara allows for - it's an amazing advantage. if they'd simply retained this, it'd have made the switch to analog much, much easier...

i'd say, in more combat-centered, 'running around fighting/shooting stuff' -type games, a floating camera's somewhat acceptable. but in a game requiring quite a large amount of athleticism on it's heroine's part, it's just flat-out unintuitive/counter-productive...


&, before you disagree, try it yourself (you'll see :) )...

owen10
18th Jul 2003, 01:13
I agree, numb. I think the use of confined level designs and overly cinematic camera angles effectively doom the new control scheme. If the camera had been more obedient and the levels larger to accommodate this, the change wouldn't have been as harsh. As they’re not, it is very difficult to enjoy the new control scheme at all. The first level is so horribly cramped that it makes learning Lara's moves counterproductive and the omission of the mansion feature doesn't help.

Raven
18th Jul 2003, 02:15
The number and intensity of complaints about the new controls have been such that if Eidos/Core have any interest at all in selling the next installment, they will change them. Fingers crossed, eh :)
I also think there'll be more actual tombs in future games. The developers have said as much in interviews. So hang in there, people. Don't give up on Lara just yet.

susan
18th Jul 2003, 08:57
Originally posted by numb
i just began replaying 'lost artifact', & nothing but nothing leaps out at you right away like the ease of control having the camera automatically follow lara allows for - it's an amazing advantage. if they'd simply retained this, it'd have made the switch to analog much, much easier...

i'd say, in more combat-centered, 'running around fighting/shooting stuff' -type games, a floating camera's somewhat acceptable. but in a game requiring quite a large amount of athleticism on it's heroine's part, it's just flat-out unintuitive/counter-productive...


&, before you disagree, try it yourself (you'll see :) )...

I don't disagree, I agree very much. In my previous post I was being a little bit sarcastic which may have made it seem like I was knocking the camera following behind Lara...? I definitely think they should have kept the camera behind Lara - I've said elsewhere I don't play this game to look at Lara. To me it doesn't matter if there is a lovely cinematic view-pt showing off her cute whatevers.

I don't know how to explain it but, with the old camera following Lara perspective, I was able to experience the game as if I was in the game environments myself... These new camera angles just don't allow me to feel that way...

With regards to the analogue controls - why don't Core just offer the option of both analogue and D-pad, and 2D or 3D controls? Then everyone's happy. They did this with Silent Hill because people constantly complained about the 3D controls using the D-pad on that game too. Funny though, when offered the 2D analogue controls they wanted a lot (not all) reviewers found they did prefer the 3D D-pad controls after all. Some games just work better with this system and IMO TR is one of them.

However, Core should just give both options and satisfy us all :D

Ditto what Raven says. The contols definitely need to be re-thought for TR7, especially changing the roll/jump keys over - wtf? 5 games the square button is jump and circle roll. Was it really necessary to switch these over in AoD?? It's like someone deciding that everyone should now switch over to "red for go" and "green for stop" at traffic lights.....yes, eventually we'd all get used to it I'm sure, but what's the point?? Same with the crouch/guns out buttons. Sometimes I feel like the person who made the decision on the controls just stuck two fingers up at us :(

CatSuit&Ponytail
18th Jul 2003, 09:58
Originally posted by D3v1L80Y
I agree. I have several other titles for PS2 and I also own an X-box. Both consoles rely heavily on the analog. I too was a fan of the older control scheme for TR....and it was a major gripe of mine that the new TR went to full analog. I was outraged! Well it wasn't that bad and I quickly became accustomed to the analogs for TR, as I play several other games where it is the only option. I have since gone back and attempted to play my old TR games and what a difference!! The D-pad configuration really really really............................SUCKS.


That's amazing! Having never played TR on the PSOne or PS2, it is nice to hear that moving forward in technology was the right thing to do! :) http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

I knew that once people got used to the new controls it would become second nature! :D

..... having not known what the old controls were like, I had only my belief, coupled with the reports from friends whose opinions and experience I respect. When NONE of my friends reported having trouble adusting, well, that spoke volumes for me. ;)

numb
18th Jul 2003, 11:53
I don't disagree, I agree very much.

yeah, i know :) - my post being basically intended as a 'here, here!' to yours (& that last line being included in anticipation of any overly-enthusiastic, 'everything's wonderful the way it is' aod fans insisting otherwise)...


btw, more on 'lost artifact' (& the very cool san francisco crew that did the 'gold' expansions) over here:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=20485