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maniac44
16th Jul 2003, 05:31
This was posted within another post. It seem pretty important so here's the full article:

Tomb Raider developer chief quits Eidos board
By Tony Smith
Posted: 15/07/2003 at 15:21 GMT

Games publisher Eidos today announced the immediate departure of Jeremy Heath-Smith from the company's board. Heath-Smith has also stepped down from Core Design's board.

Core Design developed the Tomb Raider series of games, which were published by Eidos. Heath-Smith's role as both Eidos' Global Head of Development and Core's Managing Director is a sign of how intertwined the two companies' fortunes have become as Lara Croft's adventures have propelled both to great success. Indeed, Core is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Eidos.

Heath-Smith founded Core back in 1988. In 1994, it was taken over by CentreGold, which in turn was bought by Eidos in 1996.

Given how central Core has been to the Eidos story, how can we explain the sudden departure? No reason was given for Heath-Smith's move in the official announcement, and Eidos would not comment any further, referring us back to the terse press release.

Many observers will conclude that the move was forced upon him. A few weeks back, Eidos admitted that last-minute delays to the release of the latest release in the Tomb Raider series, Angel of Darkness, would mean that a significant percentage of the titles sales would have to be included in the company's results for fiscal 2004, not fiscal 2003, which ended on 30 June. The profit warning prompted a ten per cent dip in Eidos' shares.

"While some units may ship within the current financial year, up to one million units will ship in July, the first month of the next financial year," the company said. "This has led the Board to significantly reduce its expectations for profit before tax for the financial year."

Eidos won't say what it expected to earn during 2003, or what it now believes its income will total. Its 2003 results will be announced on 4 September. Analysts were expecting sales of $283-300 million. It's hard to imagine shareholders not demanding the head of someone for the income shortfall.

here's the original link: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/31753.html

Looks like at least one head rolled. :eek:

bonnie :)
16th Jul 2003, 08:19
This is very interesting.......thanx for the post! :cool:

wgell
16th Jul 2003, 09:16
I`m sure other heads will follow.

It`s a shame that all they are talking about is profits. There`s no mention of quality.

Marco-Fogg
16th Jul 2003, 09:25
Saw this coming. AOD is simply not good enough to justify the botched release dates, terrible bugs, awful slowdown, and unplayable controls. I think the sales will really drop off sharply as well after the initial buying frenzy due to the terrible reviews, and the simple fact that the game is a huge disapointment.
Like Lara, its a sad end to a distinguished career.

tomb_raiding
16th Jul 2003, 09:32
So who is gonna be in his place, his bro adarian Smith, or toby Gard (which I don't think so)

XanderD2
16th Jul 2003, 10:21
Unfortunately it is never the marketing honchos who pay the price for bad decisions (hint: for pushing a developer to release an unfinished game). Heath-Smith's departure makes it evident that the blame is on Eidos for the unfinished state of AoD. Shame on them.

CatSuit&Ponytail
16th Jul 2003, 11:27
Sad news.

This whole episode makes me sad.

At least I can still enjoy the game.


But it brings to mind the memory that the people who work on Lara's adventures, or depend on them for income, end up hating her.

owen10
16th Jul 2003, 13:49
Originally posted by XanderD2
Unfortunately it is never the marketing honchos who pay the price for bad decisions (hint: for pushing a developer to release an unfinished game). Heath-Smith's departure makes it evident that the blame is on Eidos for the unfinished state of AoD. Shame on them.
Agreed. Shame on you, Eidos.

Toby Gard wouldn't touch Core with a ten foot barge poll. It's precisely this reason he quit and formed his own company, Confounding Factor. Galleon will be released when ready, and not sooner.

imported_sk8er_punk
16th Jul 2003, 14:47
Hate to say this, but this is probably the downfall of Tomb Raider. Now, other people @ core will start leaving for similar reasons and our dear Lara will be no more. It's really sad how eidos is ruining thier main source of income (tomb raider has brought in more money than any other game they published). Plus, if the games are gone, so will the movies, and eventually Lara will just fade away. All this for a couple million dollars. Think next time, eidos. If there is a next time...

sk8er

jodman3
16th Jul 2003, 14:58
Well, this pisses me off. Another employee has left Core design. I don't know if the deserved it or not because he was manager right? He let AOD slip between his fingers and he sent it out full of bugs and poor level design. He was also ine of the people that let Core work on AOD with just specs of the ps2, then when Sony changed them, they had to start all over again. So i don't know who to blame or trust. I'm sorry, IMO anyone who thinks that AOD is a well developed game, well... is bias to the point of blindness and can't except the fact that they are ruining the Tomb Raider name and themselves. That, or you are very simple and it doesn't take much to amuse you. Almost everything in that game was incomplete and it's ashame too. Now i'm a huge fan and all but i am aware that i got cheated out of my money and that all they care about is the money and not their jobs. The good news is that this is a wake up call for them now, i bet this will never happen again and they will next time take their jobs more seriously. I know it's sad, but who is he? He is just a producer, I mean the actural programers are the important ones.
Toby, which was the one that started Tomb Raider left and they didn't have much problems. And i think Adrian and whoever they hire could do a better job hopfully.
:( :rolleyes:

moe888uk
16th Jul 2003, 15:07
AOD is definitely an unfinished, rushed out game. But its also one of the most enjoyable games right now. The controls, graphics, sounds, gameplay are all top notch. But the way Core/Eidos went about making this game with the incredible amount of delays and yet an unfinished product, heads were gona roll. Even then, I would stand by the game because its one of the most enjoyable games Ive played to date.

numb
16th Jul 2003, 15:25
It's a shame that all they are talking about is profits. There`s no mention of quality.

everyone (including myself) loves whacking eidos, & they certainly deserve their share of it here. however,...

it's a fact that people do indeed finance games in order to make money, & that core did commit to produce something of value within a certain (non-open-ended) timeframe. it would appear (judging from the unfinished result (can we rename aod 'unfinished business 2'?)), that given the above circumstances, 1) core bit off a lot more than they could chew (a good game in 2-3 years? - yes; a good game plus a new, from-the-ground-up engine? - obviously not (there's a very good reason that it took close to 3 times as many people to produce the new-gen 'mgs2' in the same amount of time) 2) smith was actively in denial of this (how can i put this so that it doesn't offend GoranAgar?), 'exaggerating' both the quality & quantity of the project, not just to the public, but very probably eidos itself (at least his dismissal would seem to indicate this)...

it's my feeling that, come the missed deadline last november, smith/core were told to shut down further production, & simply string together everything that'd been assembled thus far in such a way that someone could concievably play the game start to end, & this 'compromise' involved core's inability to produce what they'd committed to produce as much as anything else...

Godfather
16th Jul 2003, 15:26
Maybe it's all for the best that the end of Lara Croft is near (say: after the two following sequel-games of AOD). Then people will remember her in a satisfying way rather than being upset coz each new Tomb Raider-game becomes something different and less of the original gameplay. :(

Sometimes the best things are stopped at their highest peak, no?

IndyDallasJones
16th Jul 2003, 15:28
Moe?
:rolleyes:

jodman3
16th Jul 2003, 15:28
RIGHT! Your right. But I like the game too, and i saw it had potental but the game was not done so whatever potental it had whent down the drain. A lot of half thoughts in this game. And now they pay for their laziness. They do deserve all the critcism*. I wouldn't say that this is the end of Tomb Raider because it isn't. If a game is good then people will like it, it will sell, nuff said. But it did tarnish their name, badly. They need to put the origanal* people on the job, the ones that made TR1. And they need all of their good programers and the next one too.

numb
16th Jul 2003, 16:51
They need to put the origanal* people on the job, the ones that made TR1. And they need all of their good programers and the next one too.

not sure how feasible that'd be...

me? - if there is still any interest out there (& that is questionable at this point), i'd just as soon eidos sell the whole tr 'franchise' (for cold cash) to someone like, say, squaresoft, who have the financial wherewithall, the imagination, & are presently without an in-house action/adventure series...

owen10
16th Jul 2003, 16:55
Originally posted by numb
i'd just as soon eidos sell the whole tr 'franchise' (for cold cash) to someone like, say, squaresoft, who have the financial wherewithall, the imagination, & are presently without an in-house action/adventure series...
There's a reason for that. SquareEnix aren't in the business of making action adventure games. They don't want to be, either.

numb
16th Jul 2003, 17:05
They don't want to be, either.

wasn't aware of that (tho, to the extent that they just merged with enix, & that they are in the business of making money, i would think an already-established heroine with a built-in following would be at least a little appealing/interesting to them)...

jodman3
16th Jul 2003, 17:17
Originally posted by numb
not sure how feasible that'd be...

me? - if there is still any interest out there (& that is questionable at this point), i'd just as soon eidos sell the whole tr 'franchise' (for cold cash) to someone like, say, squaresoft, who have the financial wherewithall, the imagination, & are presently without an in-house action/adventure series...

Well, numb, no one can capture the magic that core has put in it. Besides, i know Core could do it. They have not been trying lately. I know this is a wake-up call for them, just like TR3, and look how they made TRLR because of it. They need to take their jobs seriously. And i don't know who made Squaresoft king of gaming. I don't like the FF series. They make one good game and everyone praises them, FF10 is not a good game IMO, it's average. It's the same #$%% they have been throwing out after FF7 except with a new story and battle system, And that battle system is a modaration* of their other systems. So that's not too new, it's just tweaked. I mean almost all RPG'S are alike except for story and battle. What Squaresoft needs to do is change RPG's, not tweak them!:mad:



I'M GONE

numb
16th Jul 2003, 18:25
Besides, i know Core could do it. They have not been trying lately. I know this is a wake-up call for them, just like TR3, and look how they made TRLR because of it. They need to take their jobs seriously.

so, what you're saying is, core fell asleep on tr3, woke up on trlr, & fell back asleep on aod, & will now wake up again? i'm sorry, but i wouldn't let someone like this babysit my hamster, let alone determine the future of a great game franchise...

have you watched the 'making of' video? who are these guys? how much of core is even core anymore?...


i don't know who made Squaresoft king of gaming.

uh, gamers, maybe? :) ... anyway, whether one likes the ff games or not is kinda irrelevant. it is a succesful company, & it doesn't have it's own action/adventure title. it was just a thought, eh?...


no one can capture the magic that core has put in it

that, in my opinion, & taking your own description of core into consideration, i'd say that's a somewhat questionable statement at this time - i might've agreed with you a few years back, but not now...

maniac44
16th Jul 2003, 19:07
Originally posted by jodman3
Well, numb, no one can capture the magic that core has put in it.

Let's not forget that the Tomb Raider Gold games were made in Eidos's Internal Development Department located in San Francisco (which is no more). Not at CORE. The Tomb Raider franchise could still do well if the right development team was put together.

SnAcKeR
16th Jul 2003, 19:32
a guy i work with actually knew the guy who dreamt up the original TR idea. he based the character Lara Croft on his sister. somehow the game became Eidos' and he didn't get one penny from the fortune that became of it.

Nounours
16th Jul 2003, 20:00
I'm sorry guys but I've got to reply to jodman3...

First, you say they fell asleep after TR3, and woke up with TRLR... Yet it looks like Core has fallen asleep again quite shortly after this, just look at the Chronicles fiasco (which was in Heath-Smith own words, one too much (?) game). Now, thank God, AOD has been running quite smoothly on my PC, I'm enjoying it quite a lot. Of course, the lack of support (and patches) by Core is somehow frigthening and it doesn't live up to it's hype, but how many games did ? Plus, you've got to take into account the numerous people who complain, because, well, they think it makes them look interesting.

As numb pointed, Squaresoft was made king of gaming by gamers. You're basically making a pointless comment on the FF series. FFX is maybe not a true masterpiece, but very well thought out and this game can make you feel emotions other than anger or happiness.


They make one good game and everyone praises them

It's the same #$%% they have been throwing out after FF7

So that's not too new, it's just tweaked

Okay, Core made one good game : TR1. Everyone praised them. They've been throwing out the same "#$%%" after it. And then Heath-Smith said, regarding comments about AOD, "We feel we haven't gone original enough with this game".

Hello : sequels are not meant to change a genre, they're there to bring money. Buyers do not except a radical change in gaming concepts.

On a final note, I'm worried to hear Heath-Smith (again) saying "We're not touching the technology for the next 2 games"... Do you know what this means ? The game might look okay (not good, okay) today, but it's based on a 2.5 years old engine which will be ridiculous in 2004. (Just like TR:C)). Doesn't matter to me because I'm interested in the content of the game... But it will repel many people, and it isn't a positive way of thinking : "I'm not trying to improve what I made"

I'm not gone ;)

PS : Please forgive me for my spelling mistakes, I'm not a native english speaker.

salvestrom
16th Jul 2003, 20:23
I've gotten the impression that they spent too much time rewriting the game engine and trying to achieve the frame rate of 60fps.

They should have locked down all the levels and content, and tested it with the old engine, and moves, then stopped to look at the calendar. If they'd put together a top notch TR game and found they only had 2 months to write a new engine, well, they wouldn't have tried it. Instead they spent 2 years rewriting the engine, and found themselves with 2 months to make a top-notch computer game. :) (i don't mean that literally :P)

I can't help wondering why they even tried to rebuild the fundamentals of the game. If this had been only the second TR game, and it had been the 7 years since the last you could understand wanting to update it. But this is like some TV series which ends one season, going well, and when it restarts next year they've stood the whole thing on its head for no apparent reason other than they thought they could do it.

/sigh

Sal.

numb
16th Jul 2003, 20:36
Let's not forget that the Tomb Raider Gold games were made in Eidos's Internal Development Department located in San Francisco (which is no more).

props to maniac44 for mentioning these folks! as good or better level designs than those in the games themselves - & very cool people (they'd hang out on these boards) as well...

good memories :) ...

moe888uk
16th Jul 2003, 20:42
I think changes had to be made. After chronicles, which was very much disliked, a major change was inevitable.

John Carter
16th Jul 2003, 22:43
Originally posted by maniac44
Let's not forget that the Tomb Raider Gold games were made in Eidos's Internal Development Department located in San Francisco (which is no more). Not at CORE. The Tomb Raider franchise could still do well if the right development team was put together.

And I don't forget that you yourself were a part of that internal development team. I certainly have no desire to watch TR go out on top, on bottom, or inbetween. I would like to see it go on, and if the next movie does good boxoffice, I suspect it will go on regardless, at least for a while.

What would be your generalized proposal for revitalization of the game franchise?

Dad
16th Jul 2003, 22:53
Well I wuz wondering when somebody was gonna crack open that cookie.

BkBaby999
17th Jul 2003, 00:14
I love Final Fantasy!

So now with Aod and FF Online.....anyone looking for a cheap barely used Playstation 2 :D cuz it looks like I'm done!

maniac44
17th Jul 2003, 01:16
Originally posted by John Carter
What would be your generalized proposal for revitalization of the game franchise?


1. Fresh Blood. Get some people working on it that are not burnt out from working on numerous TRs.

2. Look at the custom levels being made by TR fans. There is a lot of talent and fresh ideas out there.

3. Actually LISTEN TO THE TESTERS. They play a lot of games and know what works and what doesn't.

4. And just because you own the company doesn't mean your ideas are always the best. Be open to new ideas.

jodman3
17th Jul 2003, 01:19
Originally posted by Nounours
I'm sorry guys but I've got to reply to jodman3...

First, you say they fell asleep after TR3, and woke up with TRLR... Yet it looks like Core has fallen asleep again quite shortly after this, just look at the Chronicles fiasco (which was in Heath-Smith own words, one too much (?) game). Now, thank God, AOD has been running quite smoothly on my PC, I'm enjoying it quite a lot. Of course, the lack of support (and patches) by Core is somehow frigthening and it doesn't live up to it's hype, but how many games did ? Plus, you've got to take into account the numerous people who complain, because, well, they think it makes them look interesting.

As numb pointed, Squaresoft was made king of gaming by gamers. You're basically making a pointless comment on the FF series. FFX is maybe not a true masterpiece, but very well thought out and this game can make you feel emotions other than anger or happiness.





Okay, Core made one good game : TR1. Everyone praised them. They've been throwing out the same "#$%%" after it. And then Heath-Smith said, regarding comments about AOD, "We feel we haven't gone original enough with this game".

Hello : sequels are not meant to change a genre, they're there to bring money. Buyers do not except a radical change in gaming concepts.

On a final note, I'm worried to hear Heath-Smith (again) saying "We're not touching the technology for the next 2 games"... Do you know what this means ? The game might look okay (not good, okay) today, but it's based on a 2.5 years old engine which will be ridiculous in 2004. (Just like TR:C)). Doesn't matter to me because I'm interested in the content of the game... But it will repel many people, and it isn't a positive way of thinking : "I'm not trying to improve what I made"

I'm not gone ;)

PS : Please forgive me for my spelling mistakes, I'm not a native english speaker.

When I said all of that @#%$ about Squaresoft, I was making a point to all that say or thinks squaresoft is perfect. Also I just wanted to note to all people here that say, ''all core does is throw out the same games every year'' when Sqauresoft does is too and no one complains. That is what i don't understand, why people avoid other developers and as soon as Core ships their game everyone *****es at them. Now since that's out of the way i would like to say this, Sqauresoft is not the king of gaming just cause a FEW RPG lovers say so. I know many a people who does not like their WEAK battling and level design. As a matter of Fact, there isn't any level design in an RPG. They can get away with it just cause of story and battling. WELL, NOT IN MY BOOK! The reason why the have good stories is because the developers don't have to worry about level design much cause they can use FMV backgrounds. The battles are unrealisic*(all you do is hit each other until one falls or if you can't win ''LEVEL UP UNTIL YOU DO'') and what the hell is up with the magic you see in ALL RPG's? A.I. os spmething they don't have to worry about either. There is a ton of things Core has to do that SQAURESOFT does not. Those people could not see how to make an adventure game if it constantly kicked them in the groins. I could rag on RPG's all day but i have things to do.

WHEW, now that is of my chest, you also said something else, about the technology not being touched, well in that artical it also said that they have enough technology for ten years so i wouldn't worry. That and an engine is comprised of other little engines which you can add or take out, data streaming is also a little engine they can add which, i hope they do. Special effects are little pixel engines also which can be added, again, i hope they add shadow maps. What i;m tring to say is since this engine is lacking stuff they can add the stuff that are missing in that engine.



I'M GONE:(

jodman3
17th Jul 2003, 01:36
Originally posted by numb
not sure how feasible that'd be...

me? - if there is still any interest out there (& that is questionable at this point), i'd just as soon eidos sell the whole tr 'franchise' (for cold cash) to someone like, say, squaresoft, who have the financial wherewithall, the imagination, & are presently without an in-house action/adventure series...

It can be somewhat done because some people stayed that worked on TR1. They were the people who also made Project eden. Oh, and about you saying that they fell asleep, well something happen to cause a drop in creativity. IMO, I think Core captured some magic when they made Chronicles, those Roman levels although not the size of the ones in TR1, really felt like they could be in TR1.:o

owen10
17th Jul 2003, 01:51
I don't see the point of bashing another company's games, simply because someone suggests the ludicrously implausible idea that SquareEnix would touch the Tomb Raider license with a barge poll, or be in a position to ascertain it for that matter. The Japanese gaming market is SquareEnix's forte, while international sales and promotions come second. Tomb Raider means stuff all in Japan, and securing the Lara licence would be as valuable to them as Bubsy the Bobcat.

Mangar The Dark
17th Jul 2003, 02:00
Originally posted by Godfather
Maybe it's all for the best that the end of Lara Croft is near (say: after the two following sequel-games of AOD). Then people will remember her in a satisfying way rather than being upset coz each new Tomb Raider-game becomes something different and less of the original gameplay. :(

Sometimes the best things are stopped at their highest peak, no?

Yes. That's why I always think they should have ended it with Last Revelation. Chronicles and AOD were poor follow-ups that, to me, weakened the franchise.

But maybe the solution doesn't have to be as drastic as ending the series. How about just letting it rest? Look at the length of time some other companies are taking to make sequels:

Doom 3 is coming out a lonnnnnng time after Doom 2, and Doom fans are ecstatic about it finally arriving.

Half-Life 2 is coming out many years after the original, and look at the hype it's getting.

The point is, we're going to remember Lara even if she disappears for another five years or so while Core and Eidos figure out a way to make a really worthwhile sequel. And what's more, the end result will be better, the franchise will have a better reputation, and the release of a new TR game will be an EVENT, not just, "oh, a new TR game... is it November already?"

Imagine if TR2 and 3 didn't exist. TR1 was a huge hit. Almost everyone loved it. Then the series would disappear for a few years. Gradually we'd hear rumors of a new TR game, and then finally we'd see "Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation," and it would look like a true, worthwhile sequel. A lot of new moves, vehicles, far better graphics, enhanced FMV, etc, etc. If you don't believe me about the impact it would have, go play TR1 for a while, and then load up TR4, I think you'll see what I mean. Granted, TR2 had some improvement over TR1, but not enough to seem like a full-fledged sequel. And because the games were coming out like clockwork every year, the excitement surrounding their release was non-existant among anyone who wasn't a diehard fan.

jodman3
17th Jul 2003, 02:21
Originally posted by Mangar The Dark
Yes. That's why I always think they should have ended it with Last Revelation. Chronicles and AOD were poor follow-ups that, to me, weakened the franchise.

But maybe the solution doesn't have to be as drastic as ending the series. How about just letting it rest? Look at the length of time some other companies are taking to make sequels:

Doom 3 is coming out a lonnnnnng time after Doom 2, and Doom fans are ecstatic about it finally arriving.

Half-Life 2 is coming out many years after the original, and look at the hype it's getting.

The point is, we're going to remember Lara even if she disappears for another five years or so while Core and Eidos figure out a way to make a really worthwhile sequel. And what's more, the end result will be better, the franchise will have a better reputation, and the release of a new TR game will be an EVENT, not just, "oh, a new TR game... is it November already?"

Imagine if TR2 and 3 didn't exist. TR1 was a huge hit. Almost everyone loved it. Then the series would disappear for a few years. Gradually we'd hear rumors of a new TR game, and then finally we'd see "Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation," and it would look like a true, worthwhile sequel. A lot of new moves, vehicles, far better graphics, enhanced FMV, etc, etc. If you don't believe me about the impact it would have, go play TR1 for a while, and then load up TR4, I think you'll see what I mean. Granted, TR2 had some improvement over TR1, but not enough to seem like a full-fledged sequel. And because the games were coming out like clockwork every year, the excitement surrounding their release was non-existant among anyone who wasn't a diehard fan.


At first, i didn't know what you meant by resting a series but now that you explained it, you are sooooo right they need to do that badly. That would help the series.

Oh, owen10 i just could not grasp the fact that someone wanted Squaresoft to take over. I just couldn't beleive* it.

owen10
17th Jul 2003, 02:35
The last time I checked, Tomb Raider: AoD was selling extremely well. This is what matters, and what will ultimately decide the fate of the Tomb Raider franchise. Quality is a superfluous side issue, only tenuously linked to sales. FIFA is a poor man's Pro Evo Soccer, but successful marketing and licensing ensures the former makes all the money, at the expense of critical acclaim.

numb
17th Jul 2003, 02:35
Tomb Raider means stuff all in Japan, and securing the Lara licence would be as valuable to them as Bubsy the Bobcat.

are you telling me that the 'busby the bobcat' license is up for grabs?!...


on a more serious note:

i've been thinking of revisiting an older game, & been trying to decide whether to do tr3 or lr... but maniac44 kinda made my mind up for me, & i just booted up lost artifact...

anyway (as you recall), you begin in 'highland fling'. lara arrives via chopper, hops in the water, gets caught by the current, makes it to shore, makes her way to the bridge (flip-hop-jump'n'firing her way through security - yes!). she walks to the bridge's north side & suddenly...

you're way to the north, facing back, over-looking the bridge, the water, the cliffs, the banks, & the entry to the castle, everything distant, washed in a sunset sky, a huge panorama, & there, in the center of the bridge, almost in silhouette, all alone, is lara...

there are no moments like this in aod. they are every bit as much a 'signature' as the double pistols, &, at least by myself, sorely, sorely missed. aod may be an 'adventures of lara croft' game, but it's clearly, indisputably not 'tomb raider' - not after you've gone back & revisited a 'real' one...


thanks again, maniac44 (you all entertained the hell out of me :) )...

Riovanes
17th Jul 2003, 08:45
Originally posted by jodman3
Well, numb, no one can capture the magic that core has put in it. Besides, i know Core could do it. They have not been trying lately. I know this is a wake-up call for them, just like TR3, and look how they made TRLR because of it. They need to take their jobs seriously. And i don't know who made Squaresoft king of gaming. I don't like the FF series. They make one good game and everyone praises them, FF10 is not a good game IMO, it's average. It's the same #$%% they have been throwing out after FF7 except with a new story and battle system, And that battle system is a modaration* of their other systems. So that's not too new, it's just tweaked. I mean almost all RPG'S are alike except for story and battle. What Squaresoft needs to do is change RPG's, not tweak them!:mad:



I'M GONE

Um, I know this has probably been covered, but have you listened to yourslef?

"What Square needs to do is change RPG's, not tweak them!"

And what would we call TombRaider? Certainly not the same thing over and over again with a different story each time - in other words, the SAME DAMN PROBLEM you're accusing the FF series of.

So it's gotten a little stale - all standing series do that eventually. But at least FF comes up with a decent story each time, as opposed to "Lara's raiding another tomb. Oh look, someone's betrayed her - again. Now she's finding a major artifact and killing demons - for the fourth time."

Bottom line - don't go calling the kettle black if your pot needs polishing, right? Both of these franchises are strong in their own areas, and both appeal to different markets - just because FF isn't your style doesn't mean it sucks - it just means it sucks for you - the same way some people don't like exploring the same tombs over and over again, right?

I could say a lot more - like about how "leveling up," or gaining strength over time is infinitely more realistic than having a godlike character from the beginning (incidentally, AoD had an exp. system of a kind, with all those powerups, so let's not have you screaming about leveling up, shall we?), but I won't - one, because this isn't the place - and two, because I appreciate Eidos as a company - they produce one of my favorite series (which is not TR), and I'd rather not bash any of their products openly - especially just to quash someone jabbering about things they little understand or appreciate.

BAH!!!

jodman3
17th Jul 2003, 14:09
You haven't read everything i typed.

''And what would we call TombRaider? Certainly not the same thing over and over again with a different story each time - in other words, the SAME DAMN PROBLEM you're accusing the FF series of.''

(Also I just wanted to note to all people here that say, ''all core does is throw out the same games every year'' when Sqauresoft does is too and no one complains.)

I did not say Core did not do it to.

''So it's gotten a little stale - all standing series do that eventually. But at least FF comes up with a decent story each time, as opposed to "Lara's raiding another tomb. Oh look, someone's betrayed her - again. Now she's finding a major artifact and killing demons - for the fourth time."

You got one thing right, about her finding artifacts, yea she finds 'em so what atleast she does not SAVE the world in every game or all the game characters somehow gets magic, oh that is ''infinitely more realistic''! Is the way you fight in an RPG realistic, i don't think so, all you do is hit each other back and forth until someone drops or disapears. And as for leveling up you pick on smaller creature to get exsperince*.

''just because FF isn't your style doesn't mean it sucks - it just means it sucks for you''

I don't think it sucks, i kinda like RPG's. I don't like the fact that some people think squaresoft invented the genre.

Mangar The Dark
17th Jul 2003, 14:22
Originally posted by numb
you're way to the north, facing back, over-looking the bridge, the water, the cliffs, the banks, & the entry to the castle, everything distant, washed in a sunset sky, a huge panorama, & there, in the center of the bridge, almost in silhouette, all alone, is lara...

there are no moments like this in aod. they are every bit as much a 'signature' as the double pistols, &, at least by myself, sorely, sorely missed. aod may be an 'adventures of lara croft' game, but it's clearly, indisputably not 'tomb raider' - not after you've gone back & revisited a 'real' one...



That WAS a great moment in Lost Artifact. But if you think about it, not even Chronicles (the last "real" TR) could come close to it. Yes, there were some beautiful parts in Chronicles (certain parts of the Young Lara episode came close, and I was fond of some parts of Rome), but fighting cyborgs in the cramped quarters of VCI, and crawling through air ducts in a submarine didn't quite do it for me. Not to say it wasn't fun, but it didn't capture the grand scale or the feeling of exploration that Lost Artifact captured so well.

midroth
17th Jul 2003, 14:56
''And what would we call TombRaider? Certainly not the same thing over and over again with a different story each time - in other words, the SAME DAMN PROBLEM you're accusing the FF series of.''

Hm, the Game CHESS is -if you want- the same damn problem every round, too. Always. Maybe this always the "same damn problem" was this (not) the secrect of success of TR, too? Every game exploring an enviroment, collecting things/puzzle pieces, running forward/backward, interrupted by some action? In a ship under water (TR2), in a dschungle w tigers (TR3), in a pyramide w wonderfull walls w hyroglyphes, figures(TR4)...
Or?


PS.: This sentence "Jeremy Heath-Smith, has been taken off the boards of Lara developers Core Design " should make us sorrows.
(found in an other thread)
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=20608

Wee Bald Man
17th Jul 2003, 15:31
I have always felt that TR3 - Lost Artefact (the Gold level) was the pinnacle of the series. It embodied everything that TR was about for me.

The fact that Lost Artefact (the Gold level) was created by an incredibly small team, in an incredibly short space of time, in a room thousands of miles away from Core, has remained to this day a major inspiration to me. It makes me feel that anything is possible if you have the talent, passion, imagination and the desire (and a very large supply of elbow grease :D).


Originally posted by maniac44
1. Fresh Blood. Get some people working on it that are not burnt out from working on numerous TRs.
maniac44, How about everyone here send you $50 which you use to pay for the phone calls and the bribery required to reform the TR3 Gold team? Then, once you have managed to do that, we all send you another $50 and you guys (and gal) make another Gold level? You could release it for free so that you can circumvent the "No profit" clause on the level editor. (Just claim the donations we send you under travelling expenses and coffee). :D


2. Look at the custom levels being made by TR fans. There is a lot of talent and fresh ideas out there.
There are a surprisingly low number of custom level designers considering the size of the franchise. So, come on boys and girls, if you love TR come and make a TR level! (That sounds like a really cheesy recruitment advert). :D


3. Actually LISTEN TO THE TESTERS. They play a lot of games and know what works and what doesn't.
I cannot agree more. QA feedback is massively under-used. Many developers (there are a few exceptions) still treat bug reports as a string of complaints against them, rather than a list of improvements compiled by people who care about the game and want to make it as good as possible before it gets released...

WBM

snake
17th Jul 2003, 15:33
They messed up with the AOD isnt that obvious enough??
They delayed , there were bugs, the game is disappointing, the sells will decrease etc etc. I hope they find good replacements otherwise Lara will actually die.

Riovanes
17th Jul 2003, 16:08
Originally posted by jodman3
You haven't read everything i typed.

''And what would we call TombRaider? Certainly not the same thing over and over again with a different story each time - in other words, the SAME DAMN PROBLEM you're accusing the FF series of.''

(Also I just wanted to note to all people here that say, ''all core does is throw out the same games every year'' when Sqauresoft does is too and no one complains.)

I did not say Core did not do it to.

''So it's gotten a little stale - all standing series do that eventually. But at least FF comes up with a decent story each time, as opposed to "Lara's raiding another tomb. Oh look, someone's betrayed her - again. Now she's finding a major artifact and killing demons - for the fourth time."

You got one thing right, about her finding artifacts, yea she finds 'em so what atleast she does not SAVE the world in every game or all the game characters somehow gets magic, oh that is ''infinitely more realistic''! Is the way you fight in an RPG realistic, i don't think so, all you do is hit each other back and forth until someone drops or disapears. And as for leveling up you pick on smaller creature to get exsperince*.

''just because FF isn't your style doesn't mean it sucks - it just means it sucks for you''

I don't think it sucks, i kinda like RPG's. I don't like the fact that some people think squaresoft invented the genre.

Okay, so perhaps I was a bit hasty - and no, I don't think Square invented the genre. Paper games had been around for a decade or so before the first electronic RPG (Zork, as I remember), made it to the market. Square DID, however, bring the RPG to where it is today - they may not be kings of gaming, but in terms of RPG's, they're top dog, whether you like it or not. Although admittedly some of their licensing is getting really, really tired...

But anyway - I was just trying to back what I saw as an unfair comparison - my apologies.

BAH!!!

maniac44
17th Jul 2003, 16:18
Originally posted by Wee Bald Man
I have always felt that TR3 - Lost Artefact (the Gold level) was the pinnacle of the series. It embodied everything that TR was about for me.

The fact that Lost Artefact (the Gold level) was created by an incredibly small team, in an incredibly short space of time, in a room thousands of miles away from Core, has remained to this day a major inspiration to me. It makes me feel that anything is possible if you have the talent, passion, imagination and the desire (and a very large supply of elbow grease :D).



Geee..thanks WBM (and the rest of you). Lost Artifact was real fun to work on. :D Glad you folks enjoyed playing it.

TR:LA took three people six month to do (and Rebecca even took a month vacation in the middle of the project [boy, did we rib her about that:D ]). We used the same level editor that comes with Chronicles (shows you what you can do with it). But, we did also have the "Animation Editor" (which wasn't released to the public, good thing. too. That program is hated by everyone who has to use it). The Anim Editor allowed me to make new shapes (with the help of 3D MAX) and modify old ones (the Highland Warrior is the Pacific Islander model modified).
But the best thing about working on TRLA is that Core/Eidos just let us do what we wanted to do. They just said:"Come up with something fun and cool".
We started to work on TR4 Gold and had a great storyline, but the project got shelved because of the ending of TR4.

jodman3
17th Jul 2003, 16:35
Originally posted by Riovanes
Okay, so perhaps I was a bit hasty - and no, I don't think Square invented the genre. Paper games had been around for a decade or so before the first electronic RPG (Zork, as I remember), made it to the market. Square DID, however, bring the RPG to where it is today - they may not be kings of gaming, but in terms of RPG's, they're top dog, whether you like it or not. Although admittedly some of their licensing is getting really, really tired...

But anyway - I was just trying to back what I saw as an unfair comparison - my apologies.

BAH!!!

It's ok. I am also worried about AOD2, i hope the levels are bigger with no load times. And i hope it looks better cause it seems there were a lot of effects the just looked incomplete. That engine can be good if they put the right programmers on the job. Ans if the have enough technology for tem years, i wanna see it!

Raider of tombs
17th Jul 2003, 20:33
JEREMY HEATH SMITH RESIGNS FROM CORE


Eidos development director and Core Design managing director Jeremy Heath-Smith has announced that he is to resign from the boards of both companies with immediate effect. Heath-Smith, who has been with Eidos and Core for seven years, was closely associated with the development of the hugely delayed Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness - which narrowly missed being released in Europe in time for Eidos' financial year end despite a desperate last-minute scramble.

The game has been widely criticised since its launch for showing signs of extremely poor quality control, with serious gameplay bugs abundant throughout the product. No information has yet been released about Heath-Smith's reasons for departing from Eidos and Core's boards - it is of course possible that the departure is for personal reasons and was planned prior to the launch of the game. However, giving the timing, it's fair to speculate that he may well be the sacrificial lamb required by Eidos for the massive delay of Tomb Raider, the poor quality of the finished product and the negative impact this will have on the company's next set of financial results.

-----------------------------------------------------------

FOUND THIS ON TR CHRONICLES......... This is becouse (or probibly) of those moaners... OH THE GAME HAS ONE BUG LARA GETS STUCK, THE GRAPHICS ARE CRAP

I hope you feel ashamed of your selves. HUM.

From somewhone who wants JEREMY HEATH SMITH BACK,

Daniel:mad:

moe888uk
17th Jul 2003, 20:42
its got nothing to do with moaners. because of the delays that were caused they lost money in the stockmarket, that could be the real reason(as many have pointed out)

Riovanes
17th Jul 2003, 21:43
It's likely not got anything to do with the posters on this forum.

Being realistic, the NTSC and PC launches of AoD had a LOT of bugs in them. Given, there have been game launches before that have been buggy, but nothing on this order. I think, to be fair, that it's not at all just that a single person has to pay for things like this - but at the same time, that's the way the business world works. If a product sucks, you can't expect consumers to remain quiet about it, because then substandard products become the norm - so please, don't go blaming us for something that was probably sounded out by TR fans around the globe.

It's unfortunate that Heath-Smith had to step down - but whatever his reasons, I seriously doubt it was the fault of people on the TR:AoD forum - and even if it was, if you haven't run into the bugs some of the rest of us have, then you are EXTREMELY lucky - and someone should be called to account for the shoddy state this game shipped in - it's unfair that it had to be one person, but unfortunately, that's the way the business world works.

BAH!!!

John Carter
17th Jul 2003, 22:17
We started to work on TR4 Gold and had a great storyline, but the project got shelved because of the ending of TR4.

Can you share? I'd love to hear what you folks had in mind, that one begged for some futher amplification, plot-wise.

And yep, you folks did great work on TR3 Gold, the levels and scenery were great, very evocative of what I enjoy about the whole TR experience.

maniac44
18th Jul 2003, 00:13
Originally posted by John Carter
Can you share? I'd love to hear what you folks had in mind, that one begged for some futher amplification, plot-wise.


It was going to be Lara in the Caribbean. We had levels planned for the Bermuda Triangle, New Orleans (lots of Voodoo stuff and graveyards and Mardi Gras [there were going to be 2-3 levels here]), Port Royal Jamaica (old pirate hang out that in 1692 half of the city sunk beneath the sea because of an earthquake, would of been a level of a city half above the water and half below), PIRATES as baddies (this was going to be a poke at the Cutthroat fans) and the Lost City of Gold as a secert level.
It didn't have anything to do with the ending of TR4, so it became kinda hard to say why Lara ended up in the Caribbean after being caught in the collapsing tomb. The Gold levels usually continue the story of the game, but in this case the Gold Levels would of been a stand-alone adverture.

But it all got canned and we worked on the Level Editor Project instead.

numb
18th Jul 2003, 00:40
It was going to be Lara in the Caribbean. We had levels planned for the Bermuda Triangle, New Orleans (lots of Voodoo stuff and graveyards and Mardi Gras [there were going to be 2-3 levels here]), Port Royal Jamaica (old pirate hang out that in 1692 half of the city sunk beneath the sea because of an earthquake, would of been a level of a city half above the water and half below)...

damn! - would've been much fun! (kinda makes aod seem, well, sorta 'tame' by comparison - i know, i keep forgetting: it's supposed to be 'dark' (*sigh!*))...


PIRATES as baddies (this was going to be a poke at the Cutthroat fans)

aye! - &, lord knows, them scurvy 'lubbers were fair fit fer a good poke ;) ...


http://www.semiconscious.com/numbsklani.gif

John Carter
18th Jul 2003, 01:21
Yeah, that WOULD have been great fun! I like the Port Royal part in particular, read about that event as a kid and would have loved to see it....The Triangle and Voudon parts would have been really cool too. One of the things that drew me to the TR games was the fantastic/imaginative riff on the chord of historical authenticity.

Gee, too bad everybody has so many different things to do in their lives these days, probably be prohibitively hard to realize a vision like that on the LE w/out being compensated for same, still....sure there's lots of folks in TRLE-land who'd love to chip in and work with somebody who helped invent these sorts of things.... ;)