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Osyris
8th Jul 2003, 18:42
hi there, im just new to the forum so you'll have to bare with me when i ask, why is it that everyone thinks that Janos is evil?

Iv completed both Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 2 and i dont remember seeing any mallevolence in him at all.

please enlighten me cos im a little puzzled.:)

Umah Bloodomen
8th Jul 2003, 20:23
I suggest that you read this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16688), this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12541&perpage=20&highlight=Janos%20Guardian&pagenumber=1), and this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13159) when you have the time.

Osyris
8th Jul 2003, 21:22
:) thanks for the links. i read the threads they lead to but i still disagree with the notion that Janos is evil. there were a lot of questions raised by BO2: the Seeress and Voridors Bizarr appearence are the two that stand out in my mind. i was wondering what everyone else thought of these to mysteries?

warpsavant
9th Jul 2003, 00:27
Janos and the evil is just a matter of perspective.

I think the Seer is a Hylden. Vorador had his head chopped off and it grew back, so his head should look all muffed up, IMO.

Umah Bloodomen
9th Jul 2003, 00:30
Originally posted by warpsavant
Janos and the evil is just a matter of perspective.


To quote my good friend, Dr. Phil:

"There is no reality. Only perception." :D

And as always, I do agree with your sentiments on the Seer. ;)

Stukedogg
9th Jul 2003, 13:50
NO! NO! NO! Janos is not evil, he represents the ultimate good in the game. And I will bet anyone who's willing ten bucks. They're all good theories. But I have some of my own.

Raziel gets restored, because that's him on the door when you pass the pillars. Janos looks at him in horror and asks "Raziel, what have they done to you my son?"

Janos is good. If he is evil (and I acknowledge that your theories may be true) why would he try to destroy the beings that are trying to destroy everyone else? :mad:

Osyris
9th Jul 2003, 15:37
i agree with you Stukedogg, i think that Janos is ultimately good (even though i think he's hiding somthing).

you must be right about Voridor too, Warpsavant.

As for the Seeress. i think Umah and Warpsavant are right and that she is almost certainly Hylden. but for Voridor to have know her for a long time (my memory is straining here, i think he said somthing along those lines before sending kain to find her, i could be wrong) she must have lived in Nosgoth before the fall of the pillers. which is wierd since the Hylden weren't supposed to be able to abide in Nosgoth after they were erected.

ontop of that she's helping kain stop the Hylden invasion!?!

theories anyone?? HELP MEEEE!!!

Apocrypha Roxy
9th Jul 2003, 19:21
The Seer is a Hylden/Vampire (even Ancient) hybrid.

She's got fangs, she's got funky Hylden-wings, and she has dark gifts. I wouldn't be suprised if she was born between a Hylden and an Ancient during the Great War. She certainly seems to know alot about the situation. And she's old enough to have some sort of relationship with Vorador (who's old as dirt).

Vorador's head: Neck of Darkness, or just one strange character model...

Janos: Not evil. Nope, he seems honestly too benign to be that manipulative. Maybe he goes kooky after being chucked into the void, but before his death - nah... Janos, in my opinion, has his best intentions for Raziel. He's doing his job as Raziel's preceeder. The guardianship had to go on.
Hiding something? Perhaps. He seems too nice a guy to want to shove something in your face. Inherently evil? No.

Everyone has an agenda. Janos is no different. His doesn't seem so malignant, though.

Threnodi
9th Jul 2003, 19:52
Originally posted by Stukedogg
Janos looks at him in horror and asks "Raziel, what have they done to you my son?"


I think it was "Raziel! My child, what have they done to you?" though it's a minor difference. My son sounds more like an actual familial relationship. I was wondering what that "my child" stuff might entail though...

But evil? I really doubt it. This is the guy who could have said things subtley to raziel to inflame him against the sarifan, which would make sense for almost any evil ends I can think of, but instead he says "They fear what they don't understand, and they despise what they fear. But no- I do not hate them." Yeah, I also think he wants what's best for Raz and certainly didn't know about the soul reaver time loop. He says things like, you must save yourself, and that maybe his reason for being was to save Raziel'd life. He can't know about the soul reaver, or he'd know raziel was in no permanent danger.

As for hiding something, if there is something he knew he didn't tell, it's possible he just didn't have time. He was still trying to introuduce raziel to his destiny slowly and reassuringly, then the sarifan broke in and at the end he only had time to tell raziel how inportant the reaver was...which makes sense if you assume that as far as Janos knew raziel had never even seen the reaver before.

Apocrypha Roxy
9th Jul 2003, 20:34
Threnodi, you're absolutely right...

I'm feeling that there's some sort of familial bond between them - if not by blood, then by friendship. In a past life, Janos may have been a father figure to him. Janos seems to be one of those comforting, guiding types - a wise soul, you might say. He seems the very fatherly kind of guy.

A relative? Uncle? Father? Grandfather? Godfather? :p

Okay so I was being a little silly on that one, but there's definately a close bond between Janos and Raziel's past incarnation.

(I'm adamant in believing Raziel was an Ancient. And Turel was a Hylden. Search the threads - you'll find my warped reasoning.)

Umah Bloodomen
9th Jul 2003, 21:08
Well I really hate bursting any bubbles (actually, no I don't) but Raziel is not going to be restored. That was made quite clear by Amy Hennig. As for the dialogue involving "my child", I think a lot of you are looking a little to deep into that in a futile quest for meaning. It was used in the same manner a priest (or even a deity) would use it with a disciple.

In further response to Stukedogg, it appears that you missed the part in the threads I provided about this being a free-for-all in Nosgoth. Each party is trying to gain complete control over the land, and rid the land of those who stand in their way. Each race is a threat to each other and their agendas.

As far as The Seer is concerned, just because she is Hylden doesn't necessarily mean that she is for the Hylden agendas. I posted this in an early thread:


I believe that the Seer and Sarafan Lord are siblings which lead the ancient Hylden sociey in a strict and just manner. Because the Seer can "see" the events of the future, I believe that she saw the Winged Ancients as another powerful race, similar to that of the Hylden. The Sarafan Lord is power hungry, so when visions of the Winged Ancients plagued the Seer , this drove the Sarafan Lord to want to invade Nosgoth. The Sarafan Lord also strikes me as an egotistical being (similar to Kain) and probably nagged his sister about the events of the future, like "am I going to rule supreme over?..." or "what happens when I am big and bad?" type questions. In an attempt to calm his ego, the Seer most likely told him he would lead but another race would prove worthier than his own. This of course ticked him off and sent him on his quest to enslave the Winged Ancients, demand that they use their magic for his purposes and begin taking control of the universe. I believe that the Seer is more of a docile being than the Sarafan Lord and was probably forced to invade Nosgoth and mold it into their society. The Sarafan Lord would need her visions in order to prevail hence why she came along. The Winged Ancients were lead in a more peaceful manner and didn't expect to be enslaved for their powers and beliefs. Obviously (from the murals) the Winged Ancients were tortured and whatnot, most likely for not revealing their secrets to the Sarafan Lord. After years of suffering, the Winged Ancients decided to fight back and reclaim Nosgoth as their own like it had been prior to the Hylden takeover. I believe the Seer was called on to fight alongside her brother and her people but refused, fighting for the Winged Ancients instead, which caused her to eventually take refuge in the forests of Nosgoth, but not out of cowardice. I believe she and the Ancient Wingeds had an alliance, she respected the way the Winged society was structured, peaceful and focused on developing new magicks and technologies, not a bloodthirsty dictatorship her own society was molded into. This is what caused the bad blood between Winged Ancients and the Hylden (who I assume were under the brainwashed control of the Sarafan Lord...perhaps another effect of glyph energy). The Winged Ancients fought back and fought back hard, weakining the Hyldens with the powers of the Soul Reaver and errecting the Pillars, thus banishing the Hyldens to another dimension and sealing the gate behind them and cursing the Winged Ancients as vampires out of revenge.


Keep in mind that since this discussion, my view of the Hylden has changed (meaning, I do believe they are the domestic race, while what became the vampires (Winged Ancients) are not.) As for her relationship with Vorador, it's clear that they aren't overly close. (It's a relationship of convenience, IMO). I believe she still wants to stop the *Hylden invasion* however moreso the extreme lengths that the Sarafan Lord will go to to achieve it. (I also don't consider it an invasion, but moreso a homecoming).

Think about it this way, for being the *reaver guardian* don't you think he'd put more of an effort into protecting his race rather than allow them to fall to the Sarafan purges? Instead, he locks himself in his aerie and makes an excuse that the humans are justified in wiping out the vampires because they are in fear of what they don't understand. (Excuse me, but I can smell the BS through my monitor). Of course Janos has the *best intentions for Raziel*, Raziel is the only one who can obviously utilize the Reaver to its fullest ability. (With elemental enhancements, la de da da). The blood reaver is weak compared to the full-blown soul reaver. Squiddy had the best intentions for Raziel as well, and Kain is using him just the same. :rolleyes:

Apocrypha Roxy
9th Jul 2003, 21:42
No one said he was going to be restored. Only that at one time during his incarnations (of which there are many) he may have been one of the Ancient Winged beings. Perfectly rational thought.

Perhaps Janos could have meant the 'child' thing in that respect, too. He seems the type. Hey, maybe he's nice to everyone! :p

Still, Janos does not seem malignant in his intentions. Neither does Kain (suprise suprise!!!). Squiddy is questionable.

But they all have agendas that need furthering. And he's the perfect tool.


Making more of an effort? For protecting his race? Consider that many of them committed suicide - the disgust of having to feed off of the creatures they were peaceful to once before. Alot of them went lemmings-style and pitched themselves off of cliffs.

Oh, the agony... :rolleyes:

Don't you think that Janos would have done the same thing, even though the other Guardians were not sustained, unless he had the duty of safekeeping the Reaver blade for Raziel? Blind faith is what kept him going, not selfishness. He's a softie, surely. But he's not a mush. He's determined, of all things.

And he didn't quite lock himself in his aerie - he flew down and tormented the folks of Uschtenheim for a long time. Then he flew back up to gloat about his sinful acts of the evening (namely - killing and feeding off of humans).

Weak... :p

Umah Bloodomen
9th Jul 2003, 22:36
Originally posted by Stukedogg
Raziel gets restored, because that's him on the door when you pass the pillars. Janos looks at him in horror and asks "Raziel, what have they done to you my son?"


As you can see here, someone did say that Raziel gets restored, because it was *foretold* on a mural.

Kain does what works for him. If its for the greater good, so be it, if it's evil, so be it as well. That's why he was dubbed a chaotic neutral character. He just doesn't go out of his way to further the intentions of good/evil.

There's no evidence that any of the ancients committed suicide. (And frankly I don't buy it). The options I will believe is that they died out naturally, were slaughtered by humans (which is the most probable) or were banished to the demon dimension (because as Anubis and I have stated before, we believe the Hylden are the domestic race and the ancient tales are riddled with propaganda).

But still, the lower generation of vampires were still descended from he and Vorador, and he sat back and made excuses. I didn't see Janos personally hell-bent on destroying humans in SR2, which leads me to believe that the humans just looked for someone to lay the blame on. That doesn't necessarily mean Janos didn't play a role in orchestrating it. (Every historical atrocity has its poster-individual, regardless of their participation in those atrocities). He makes mention of the humans being the ones taunting him and trying to lure him out. If the humans can go to those lengths, I am sure that the notion of Janos personally raising hell could very well be a distorted truth also. (Not to mention even Raziel questions the validity of the legends near the beginning of the game).

Vampirism (and aspects of witchcraft) was blamed on receeding flesh on the deceased during the 15th-19th centuries, and people were persecuted because of it. Don't expect me to believe that humans don't tend to blow things out of proportion to fit their cause. (Especially religious causes).

It's becoming clear to me, that Janos (or anyone for that matter) is nothing without the actual soul reaver. He continues with the charade of being *good little Janos* when Raziel meets up with him in the aerie, making no mention of his tormenting of Uschtenhiem. He's keeping the blade tucked away from those that could do harm with it. (For example, Moebius, by giving it to Billy Boy later down the timeline). Its all about selfishness from all points of view (Raziel being the exception). Like I said before, this is a flat-out free-for-all.

Raz
9th Jul 2003, 23:18
I've said this time and again, but I don't believe that Janos and the Ancients are evil, though I do believe they are desperate. I believe that the Elder was telling the truth when he told Raziel that the ancient murals were an attempt to "manipulate the future". In fact, I believe that the Ancients created the murals to manipulate Raziel himself. If Raziel saw these murals, all featuring a winged being, similar to himself, holding the Reaver, fighting against the "baddies", I'm sure it would make him feel for the Ancients and their cause. If he is the "Chosen One" shown in these murals, which I personally believe he is, I doubt he'd stop for long to consider why exactly he is fighting the Hylden forces. We know that Raziel tends to rush into things without thinking too much about the consequences, and we also know where that's got him... :p

I don't believe that the Ancients are evil, but I don't necessarily think they're squeaky clean either. Raziel, the bearer of the Reaver, is most probably the key to ending the conflict in Nosgoth and will most likely be used to claim control over Nosgoth. I believe that the Ancients believe that the end justifies the means, and are prepared to sacrifice Raziel if it means they can banish their "terrible foes". I also believe that the Hylden and the potential third party, being the Elder's and Moebius' posse, wish to ultimately manipulate Raziel in order to banish their enemies. However, this does not give us reason to label them the "baddies" either... ;)

When Raziel meets the Elder in Nosgoth's corrupted future during Soul Reaver 2, he sees the Elder with his tentacles coiled around the crumbling pillars. Raziel automatically assumes that the Elder is attempting to tear the pillars down, though this scene could be interpreted differently... What if the Elder was attempting to hold the crumbling pillars up? Also, during the finale of Blood Omen 2, we hear from the Sarafan Lord that the Hylden cursed the Ancients with vampirism as revenge for being banished to the Demon Dimension. Janos makes no attempt whatsoever to deny this... Each main player from each group, being Janos of the Ancients, the Sarafan Lord of the Hylden, and the Elder from... well, his lot... believes their cause is just and right. I simply believe that Raziel is the "ultimate weapon" and all three parties are racing to achieve their prize... :)

L_Master562
9th Jul 2003, 23:37
......a person who is good and believed that his race was doing the right thing in war with the Hylden even if some were towards the darker shades of the spectrum. I have to say, no race is all good justifying what the Sarafan Lord said especially with their banishment at the end of the war, yet Janos is loyal to his people through and through. That was all I saw. If he was blindly loyal, I could find that believable. Yet couldn't the same be said about Raziel about blindly following something after he entered the Tomb of the Sarafan until about the time after he met Janos. I wasn't suprised Janos seemed to be becoming a pawn as it seems that is the case now in Bo2. Blindly following what you feel is right is a recurring theme in LoK, aint it. Trouble is about all it leads up to. The shades of grey char. trait also is a repeated theme. I see a trend or 4. So many.

I just don't like the Hylden because of their murals showing experimentation with what seem like Vamps/Ancients because of fangs it looked. Sorta like they were not really to much for caring about natural rights of others as that is a notion alien to them. Not like the Ancients were humane either chucking the Hylden to the demon dimension and so on. Vae Victus seems to relate to both races mentalities.

Seer. Yeah, at least in some part Hylden I would say. Halfbreed I would also say though. Vamp/Ancient as the other half seems likely. There are other races in Nosgoth we haven't seen and who is to say the Ancient/Hylden war didn't wipe out other non-involved races as well for the most part. Because of that, who knows? Only the writters. Easy to question and speculate yet only time will tell. What I wouldn't give for a time streaming device right about now.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 00:09
Originally posted by L_Master562
Seer. Yeah, at least in some part Hylden I would say. Halfbreed I would also say though. Vamp/Ancient as the other half seems likely.

As far as the Seer's vampiric qualities, I've speculated elsewhere that it could've been a result of her rebellion to the Hylden cause. It is obvious that the bloodcurse was issued as a form of punishment, and it would stand to reason that the Hylden would also inflict that punishment on those who proved to be traitorous. (Although I think the Seer simply didn't want to reduce herself and her people to the vile level of dominance as the Sarafan Lord did for example, and really wasn't going out of her way to betray the Hylden as a whole).

Katen
10th Jul 2003, 00:54
Hmmm deep coversation............better get out while i can:D

warpsavant
10th Jul 2003, 01:03
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

There's no evidence that any of the ancients committed suicide. (And frankly I don't buy it). The options I will believe is that they died out naturally, were slaughtered by humans (which is the most probable) or were banished to the demon dimension (because as Anubis and I have stated before, we believe the Hylden are the domestic race and the ancient tales are riddled with propaganda).

They were cursed, as a result they became immortal, and I think that means they do not die naturally. And I find it hard to believe that the humans of the times could kill all these immortal vampires. They probably killed a few, but I'm positive that some of them were shocked with becoming predators of humans, and I dont think its out of the question that they supernaturally ;) killed themselves. I doubt everyone of them killed themselves, maybe it was just those 2 real upset looking ones flying into the ground in the murals. :)


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


It's becoming clear to me, that Janos (or anyone for that matter) is nothing without the actual soul reaver. He continues with the charade of being *good little Janos* when Raziel meets up with him in the aerie, making no mention of his tormenting of Uschtenhiem. He's keeping the blade tucked away from those that could do harm with it. (For example, Moebius, by giving it to Billy Boy later down the timeline). Its all about selfishness from all points of view (Raziel being the exception). Like I said before, this is a flat-out free-for-all.

I don't think Janos even wants the Reaver to be a Soul Reaver, but I agree that at least Moebius is gonna have problems without the Soul Reaver.

And I don't think Janos tormented the people of Uschenville, this was probably made up so everyone would hate the blue guy and his kind in general.

We've seen how the Hylden treat the humans, it makes me wonder what would have happened to the humans if the Hylden were never banished. I still think this whole conflict is over the humans.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 01:23
Originally posted by warpsavant
They were cursed, as a result they became immortal, and I think that means they do not die naturally. And I find it hard to believe that the humans of the times could kill all these immortal vampires. They probably killed a few, but I'm positive that some of them were shocked with becoming predators of humans, and I dont think its out of the question that they supernaturally ;) killed themselves. I doubt everyone of them killed themselves, maybe it was just those 2 real upset looking ones flying into the ground in the murals. :)


Nope, that didn't make me buy the notion any more than how Roxy did. :p You know me, warp, it's hard to persuade me. ;)

Getting away from my non-typical theories for a moment, to contribute to this discussion, I agree that humans didn't wipe out all of the vampires, but a great majority fell victim to the purges. I would also assume that armies were the only major combative threat to the race. One of the reasons why I don't buy this *shock and awe* notion about preying on humans has to do with this mural. (http://umahbloodomen.members.easyspace.com/animalmural.jpg). This presumably occurred just after the Winged Ancients were cursed by the Hylden. We also see that it is possible that the initial food supply was animals and not human beings. Obviously a conscious decision was made by the Winged Ancients (perhaps when the animal population depleted) that they would have to obtain their sustanance from humans or die. Either way a conscious decision was made here, and humans began falling victim to the Winged Ancients who didn't want to give in to their own demise. At the same token, I am willing to accept that there were others who simply could not resort to preying upon humans and took their chances trying to locate animal sustanance (and obviously failed). I don't think they just took their own lives right away, despite that being the end result.


Originally posted by warpsavant
I don't think Janos even wants the Reaver to be a Soul Reaver, but I agree that at least Moebius is gonna have problems without the Soul Reaver.

Back to my non-typical theories for a moment, should they prove true, there is no way that Janos Audron could fufill any agenda without the reaver actually being a Soul Reaver. The Blood Reaver doesn't have the ability to take on the new and improved Hylden menace and whatever else he must face. We're pretty much in agreement that the Soul Reaver must be complete, and that the Jawless Wonder is going to eventually succumb to being trapped inside it. He can't fight back very well once that happens, but he who possesses it can and most certainly will - for whatever purpose. And the Nexus Stone is pretty much the only thing that can hinder it's power.


Originally posted by warpsavant
And I don't think Janos tormented the people of Uschenville, this was probably made up so everyone would hate the blue guy and his kind in general.

I totally agree with you here, as I mentioned above.


Originally posted by warpsavant
We've seen how the Hylden treat the humans, it makes me wonder what would have happened to the humans if the Hylden were never banished. I still think this whole conflict is over the humans.

There is no telling when those Hylden Murals were made. I've speculated elsewhere that they could be both pre or post banishment. They appeared to have dominated the humans in BO2, however they weren't treating them all like garbage, suggesting to me that they have (and possibly had) a reasonable co-existence, while maintaining leadership qualities.

Apocrypha Roxy
10th Jul 2003, 01:28
See? Warp agrees with me... to some extent...


Of course, Umah, you may have a point when it comes to the Hylden/Ancient battle, and Janos' alignment:



In the Nosgothic Realm thread with the interviews with Amy, I found something quite interesting:
...some of the worst evils are committed in the name of righteousness...


Everyone's to blame, I guess. At least, that's how the above could be interpreted.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 01:32
You'll have to excuse me, but it typically takes a little more information to be supplied (other than throwing the idea out there) for me to be persuaded to believe something. In this case, I believe it, but only after I elaborated above.

EDIT: Everyone is to blame, hence why I keep referring to this being a free-for-all. ;) I have just been trying to show flaws in each of the races.

L_Master562
10th Jul 2003, 01:56
All races are flawed by nature in some way, nothing can be perfect. I agree totally, but because of the flaws in everything you don't truely need evidence. Free-for-all is a good term for it, and in the entire history of Nosgoth as we know it, it applies well.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 02:09
Originally posted by L_Master562
All races are flawed by nature in some way, nothing can be perfect. I agree totally, but because of the flaws in everything you don't truely need evidence. Free-for-all is a good term for it, and in the entire history of Nosgoth as we know it, it applies well.

I agree with you as well, L_Master. From my perspective, I am not seeing a lot of open-mindedness to the fact that these flaws exist. I am personally enjoying the series that much more by pointing out *evidence* and speculating more on the subjects-at-hand. Having it be a free-for-all is a very creative way to go about telling this story, IMO.

warpsavant
10th Jul 2003, 02:12
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Nope, that didn't make me buy the notion any more than how Roxy did. :p You know me, warp, it's hard to persuade me. ;)

Getting away from my non-typical theories for a moment, to contribute to this discussion, I agree that humans didn't wipe out all of the vampires, but a great majority fell victim to the purges. I would also assume that armies were the only major combative threat to the race. One of the reasons why I don't buy this *shock and awe* notion about preying on humans has to do with this mural. (http://umahbloodomen.members.easyspace.com/animalmural.jpg). This presumably occurred just after the Winged Ancients were cursed by the Hylden. We also see that it is possible that the initial food supply was animals and not human beings. Obviously a conscious decision was made by the Winged Ancients (perhaps when the animal population depleted) that they would have to obtain their sustanance from humans or die. Either way a conscious decision was made here, and humans began falling victim to the Winged Ancients who didn't want to give in to their own demise. At the same token, I am willing to accept that there were others who simply could not resort to preying upon humans and took their chances trying to locate animal sustanance (and obviously failed). I don't think they just took their own lives right away, despite that being the end result.

I'm under the impression the only Ancient Vampire who ever died as a result of a Sarafan vampire purge was Janos. All the vampires they killed were Voradors kids. The ancients were dead before any purges started. Malek lead the purges for hundreds oy years, Janos was the last for thousands.

I also don't understand what you mean with the mural of the Ancient eating the cow.

And it isn't shock and awe, its disgust at what they've become. Janos said "turned us into predators of humans kind" If the Ancients had a peacefull coexistence with the humans before they were cursed it is not hard to believe some of them could have killed themselves, either directly or indirectly by just not feeding on humans. Again, not every single Ancient Vampire has to be EVIL because Janos might be EVIL.



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

[color=indigo]Back to my non-typical theories for a moment, should they prove true, there is no way that Janos Audron could fufill any agenda without the reaver actually being a Soul Reaver. The Blood Reaver doesn't have the ability to take on the new and improved Hylden menace and whatever else he must face. We're pretty much in agreement that the Soul Reaver must be complete, and that the Jawless Wonder is going to eventually succumb to being trapped inside it. He can't fight back very well once that happens, but he who possesses it can and most certainly will - for whatever purpose. And the Nexus Stone is pretty much the only thing that can hinder it's power.

Just becasue I think Raziel must get drawn into the Reaver does not mean I think Janos intended for him to get trapped in there. That is not Raziels true destiny, it was orchestrated by Moebius. I dont think the Ancients want raziel in the Reaver, or to kill Hylden,(because they are basically gone and only come back because Kain is an ass) but to somehow cure the curse.

Soul Reaver for the new and improved Hylden menace? Kain had the Soul Reaver and was almost killed by the Sarafan Lord.

I think in Defiance it'll be clear that Kain and the Blood Reaver and the enhancements it will get in the game will be enough to kill the new and improved Hylden menace.


There is no telling when those Hylden Murals were made. I've speculated elsewhere that they could be both pre or post banishment. They appeared to have dominated the humans in BO2, however they weren't treating them all like garbage, suggesting to me that they have (and possibly had) a reasonable co-existence, while maintaining leadership qualities. [/QUOTE]

Im sorry, I wasnt even thinking about the murals, I'm talking about what the humans say to Kain, and what the Hylden say to each other and the Hylden in the City. Treating them like garbage? They locked them in water filled chambers and were using them as hosts or something, theres even mention of the Mass killing the humans along with the vamps.

Apocrypha Roxy
10th Jul 2003, 02:25
Those darned Hylden, always up to no good...

:p


Warp, I think Umah means by the mural that the Ancients fed on cattle first, but found it didn't satiate their thirst for blood, so preyed upon humankind.

I believe the Ancients were inexplicably (to them, anyway) compelled to prey upon humans. When they discovered with revulsion what the curse had done to them, they sought the alternative - cattle. But because it didn't substitue human blood, many of them fell into despair and killed themselves - suicide, or just plain starving themselves of blood. The remainder slowly died out, picked off or something.

They gave up, I guess.

It's a sad, sad world...

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 02:32
Originally posted by warpsavant
I'm under the impression the only Ancient Vampire who ever died as a result of a Sarafan vampire purge was Janos. All the vampires they killed were Voradors kids. The ancients were dead before any purges started. Malek lead the purges for hundreds oy years, Janos was the last for thousands.

I also don't understand what you mean with the mural of the Ancient eating the cow.

And it isn't shock and awe, its disgust at what they've become. Janos said "turned us into predators of humans kind" If the Ancients had a peacefull coexistence with the humans before they were cursed it is not hard to believe some of them could have killed themselves, either directly or indirectly by just not feeding on humans. Again, not every single Ancient Vampire has to be EVIL because Janos might be EVIL.


I should've been clearer with my terminology, I meant the descendents of the Ancients. Whom I would think Janos would want to preserve, seeing how they are the remnants of his bloodline and being impaled out on his front lawn/lake.

EDIT: And we don't exactly know much about prehistoric Nosgoth. There could've been groups of humans revolting against the Winged Ancients, which would in a sense, be the prehistoric version of what the Sarafan became.

About the cow mural, I brought up the notion that it is possible for the Ancients to have initally feasted upon animals when cursed by the Hylden. (As the mural shows them doing). Eventually the animal population would decrease, and the only other source of nourishment would be the humans. I would assume that some of the Winged Ancients would've been alright with feasting on humans and just fell victim to being hunted, but on the other-hand, as you suggested, others could not bring themselves to feed on the human population and took their chances with locating animals instead. They obviously failed to find enough to keep them going and eventually succumbed to starvation.

I want to get away from the *evil* opinion. It's more of a *flawed* opinion, as I have commented before, I really don't think anyone's intentions are that benevolent anymore. It's all about perception, and really, we're all losing sight of the *greater good*.


Originally posted by warpsavant
Just becasue I think Raziel must get drawn into the Reaver does not mean I think Janos intended for him to get trapped in there. That is not Raziels true destiny, it was orchestrated by Moebius. I dont think the Ancients want raziel in the Reaver, or to kill Hylden,(because they are basically gone and only come back because Kain is an ass) but to somehow cure the curse.

Soul Reaver for the new and improved Hylden menace? Kain had the Soul Reaver and was almost killed by the Sarafan Lord.

I think in Defiance it'll be clear that Kain and the Blood Reaver and the enhancements it will get in the game will be enough to kill the new and improved Hylden menace.

To coincide with my non-typical theory of elsewhere, I am still firm in the belief that Janos has his own intentions for the completed blade. (Regardless if that was Raziel's destiny or not). I don't think the Winged Ancients wanted the Jawless Wonder in the blade either, because I don't even think they fathomed such a thing could occur. Janos is one up on the rest of the Winged Ancients, he outlived them. Tell me that you don't think he was streaming through time somewhere. (I won't buy it if you do though :p). I'm sure that he's got access to priviledged information.

I mentioned the Nexus Stone being the only thing able to render the blade useless. (And TSL was equipped with the stone when he defeated Kain). Remove the stone from the equation (by tossing it into the vortex of the demon dimension) and it's a whole new ball game entirely.

I have been curious to see how Kain will be able to enhance the physical blade in LOKD and can't wait to see it.


Originally posted by warpsavant

Im sorry, I wasnt even thinking about the murals, I'm talking about what the humans say to Kain, and what the Hylden say to each other and the Hylden in the City. Treating them like garbage? They locked them in water filled chambers and were using them as hosts or something, theres even mention of the Mass killing the humans along with the vamps.

A few individuals here and there does not constitute the entire race. I am sure they had their *guinea pigs* already picked out, but overall in Meridian, a lot of the people did not even bat an eyelash to the rule of TSL and the enhanced Sarafan presence. I fully agree that the Hylden were and are a strict race, with their own set of beliefs of how they should view/treat humans, overall though I don't think they treat all of them as if they are in a death camp. I believe I was the one to make mention of humans being expendable in the Hylden's quest for their return to *glory*. If they have devised a method of manufacturing humans (through their extensive technology) I really don't think eliminating a mass of them will be that much of a problem.

warpsavant
10th Jul 2003, 02:34
Well, I think they probably ate cattle to begin with, before they were cursed. They obviously have a hard time eating the same cattle after they are cursed though, as shown in the mural. Heck, maybe eating the cattle killed them, it could of been a mad cow.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 02:42
Originally posted by warpsavant
Well, I think they probably ate cattle to begin with, before they were cursed. They obviously have a hard time eating the same cattle after they are cursed though, as shown in the mural. Heck, maybe eating the cattle killed them, it could of been a mad cow.

That would just imply that vampirism existed before the Hylden ever inflicted them with the curse. (Which I have brought up before as a possibility).

EDIT: Providing that you mean that they feasted on their blood and not the meat of the cattle. (The mural suggests that they were going for the blood).

However I am not wholeheartedly convinced of your statement here on account that if that were the case, (remove the Hylden from the equation for a moment) the Winged Ancients would've still decreased the animal population and resorted to feeding on humans anyway. (Well, a majority of them would, as I suggested before). Interesting, I'll have to ponder over that some more. ;)

As far as the mad cow disease, I guess it could be worse, they could've ended up with monkey pox. :p

warpsavant
10th Jul 2003, 02:56
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
I should've been clearer with my terminology, I meant the descendents of the Ancients. Whom I would think Janos would want to preserve, seeing how they are the remnants of his bloodline and being impaled out on his front lawn/lake.

I think its more important that he survive and do whatever the heck he was supoosed to do. Going out to help Voradors kids is too risky, IMO. Like Kain after him, he probably didnt have a problem with a few vampires getting offed if it meant the survival of the race.



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


About the cow mural, I brought up the notion that it is possible for the Ancients to have initally feasted upon animals when cursed by the Hylden. (As the mural shows them doing). Eventually the animal population would decrease, and the only other source of nourishment would be the humans. I would assume that some of the Winged Ancients would've been alright with feasting on humans and just fell victim to being hunted, but on the other-hand, as you suggested, others could not bring themselves to feed on the human population and took their chances with locating animals instead. They obviously failed to find enough to keep them going and eventually succumbed to starvation.

Well, I agree some of the Ancients were alright with eating humans, but I refuse to believe they turned to humans because they ran out of animals to eat.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


I want to get away from the *evil* opinion. It's more of a *flawed* opinion, as I have commented before, I really don't think anyone's intentions are that benevolent anymore. It's all about perception, and really, we're all losing sight of the *greater good*.

Pray tell dear, what is the *greater good*?



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

To coincide with my non-typical theory of elsewhere, I am still firm in the belief that Janos has his own intentions for the completed blade. (Regardless if that was Raziel's destiny or not). I don't think the Winged Ancients wanted the Jawless Wonder in the blade either, because I don't even think they fathomed such a thing could occur. Janos is one up on the rest of the Winged Ancients, he outlived them. Tell me that you don't think he was streaming through time somewhere. (I won't buy it if you do though :p). I'm sure that he's got access to priviledged information.

No, I don't and have never thought Janos time streamed. I do think Raziel will time stream in Defiance and encounter a young Janos Audron.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


I mentioned the Nexus Stone being the only thing able to render the blade useless. (And TSL was equipped with the stone when he defeated Kain). Remove the stone from the equation (by tossing it into the vortex of the demon dimension) and it's a whole new ball game entirely.

I have been curious to see how Kain will be able to enhance the physical blade in LOKD and can't wait to see it.

It would have been a different ball game if the Reaver was never Soul Enhanced....they would not have been able to use their precious stone in the first place.





Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


A few individuals here and there does not constitute the entire race. I am sure they had their *guinea pigs* already picked out, but overall in Meridian, a lot of the people did not even bat an eyelash to the rule of TSL and the enhanced Sarafan presence. I fully agree that the Hylden were and are a strict race, with their own set of beliefs of how they should view/treat humans, overall though I don't think they treat all of them as if they are in a death camp. I believe I was the one to make mention of humans being expendable in the Hylden's quest for their return to *glory*. If they have devised a method of manufacturing humans (through their extensive technology) I really don't think eliminating a mass of them will be that much of a problem.

It wasn't a few individuals, it was like a whole society/ community of people who were more or less enslaved. Killing all the humans because you found a way to manufacture them is also just wacked IMO. I can't believe you think thats not much of a problem!

warpsavant
10th Jul 2003, 03:01
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
That would just imply that vampirism existed before the Hylden ever inflicted them with the curse. (Which I have brought up before as a possibility).

EDIT: Providing that you mean that they feasted on their blood and not the meat of the cattle. (The mural suggests that they were going for the blood).

However I am not wholeheartedly convinced of your statement here on account that if that were the case, (remove the Hylden from the equation for a moment) the Winged Ancients would've still decreased the animal population and resorted to feeding on humans anyway. (Well, a majority of them would, as I suggested before). Interesting, I'll have to ponder over that some more. ;)

As far as the mad cow disease, I guess it could be worse, they could've ended up with monkey pox. :p



I eat meat, and I aint a vampire. Get my point? Just becasue they ate the cow/blood, does not make them vampires. Humans eat blood too, look at all the butcher shops in BO.

Also, the idea they'd run out of animals is silly. They built crazy Pillars, but cant domesticate animals? C'mon now.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 03:16
Originally posted by warpsavant
I think its more important that he survive and do whatever the heck he was supoosed to do. Going out to help Voradors kids is too risky, IMO. Like Kain after him, he probably didnt have a problem with a few vampires getting offed if it meant the survival of the race.

Ensuring his bloodline is too risky? Please. Whatever it is that Janos *has to do* as you put it, quite possibly revolves around the survival of the vampire race. (Remember the Pillars belong to the vampires and they're no longer born speech).


Originally posted by warpsavant
Well, I agree some of the Ancients were alright with eating humans, but I refuse to believe they turned to humans because they ran out of animals to eat.

And that's your choice, but you really haven't offered me anything that would cause me to come up with a better explanation. ;)


Originally posted by warpsavant
Pray tell dear, what is the *greater good*?

Well sweetie, :D that's just it, there isn't one. :p (Hence the quotes) To quote my good friend Dr. Phil: "There is no reality; only perception." and "There is no good news or bad news, only news.". This would also go back to the *shades of grey* arguement. It's all in the perception. If you think you're acting for the greater good, (something that will benefit you and will work for you in some way, shape or form) then who am I to dispute that? My perception may differ entirely, and I may think you're wrong and have my own idea of the *greater good*, which you probably won't agree with either. Welcome to a circular discussion. ;)


Originally posted by warpsavant
No, I don't and have never thought Janos time streamed. I do think Raziel will time stream in Defiance and encounter a young Janos Audron.

But you're not disputing he has had access to priviledged information either. (Whether it came from time-streaming remains to be seen - I was being hypothetical with that statement). Something to ponder over I am sure.


Originally posted by warpsavant
It would have been a different ball game if the Reaver was never Soul Enhanced....they would not have been able to use their precious stone in the first place.

No, because the Winged Ancients never intended the blade to be enhanced with and or/devour souls. (SR2 ending dialogue). This is the reason why I don't believe that the Nexus Stone was an ancient Hylden artifact. It was discovered (or created) after the blade exhibited soul-reaving abilities. (Sometime after BO1 I would assume). The ballgame was changed when the reaver became a soul reaver, and ultimately the players had to adapt and did.


Originally posted by warpsavant
It wasn't a few individuals, it was like a whole society/ community of people who were more or less enslaved. Killing all the humans because you found a way to manufacture them is also just wacked IMO. I can't believe you think thats not much of a problem!

You can not sit here and tell me that an entire race was depicted in the murals or in any of their tanks. The numbers are purely speculative. I won't dispute that humans weren't fair game for Hylden experiments, but the entire race being experimented on at once is absurd. I am not disputing the manufacturing of humanity just in case the Hylden happen to take the current ones out is whack. It is. Objectively speaking, for a race that is dedicated to using whatever means necessary to return to glory, it's more than justified in their eyes, IMO.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 03:33
Originally posted by warpsavant
I eat meat, and I aint a vampire. Get my point? Just becasue they ate the cow/blood, does not make them vampires. Humans eat blood too, look at all the butcher shops in BO.

Also, the idea they'd run out of animals is silly. They built crazy Pillars, but cant domesticate animals? C'mon now.

Do you need meat to survive? I think a vegan would disagree with that. Although it's not the most healthy source of sustanance, most of the proteins can be made up through vegetables and vitamins.

EDIT: Also we're talking about blood. And last that I checked, none of us need to drink that to survive. (We simply need it in our bodies as normal).

Butcher shops do not sell vials (or pints) of blood so the humans can survive. Also, a lot of the blood is burned off during cooking so don't even start this. :p

Dodo's were hunted for food and whatnot and I certainly don't see any of those running around today, do you? You can't domesticate an animal if you don't try, and I don't see any teams of oxen, cats or dogs in the Ancient Murals, leading me to believe there was no need for domesticated animals.

Besides, you're talking about a curse that was thrust upon them, like they have time to domesticate their food source when they're in constant need of sustanance. :rolleyes:

someguysteve
10th Jul 2003, 03:58
Ensuring his bloodline is too risky? Please. Whatever it is that Janos *has to do* as you put it, quite possibly revolves around the survival of the vampire race. (Remember the Pillars belong to the vampires and they're no longer born speech).
i wonder why vampires are so important to the pillars, they originally belonged to the Ancients and the only (maybe) similarity between human vampires and the Ancient vampires would be those bestowed by the curse.

Butcher shops do not sell vials (or pints) of blood so the humans can survive. Also, a lot of the blood is burned off during cooking so don't even start this.
some African tribes drink cattle blood, and in Scotland they have black pudding (cooked blood+oatmeal), actually i think its of English origen


It wasn't a few individuals, it was like a whole society/ community of people who were more or less enslaved. Killing all the humans because you found a way to manufacture them is also just wacked IMO. I can't believe you think thats not much of a problem!
You can not sit here and tell me that an entire race was depicted in the murals or in any of their tanks.
i think he means the Mass which would have killed all of the humans and the remaining vampires, but they didn't have to use it, they were already in charge of a society dedicated to their destruction and there was only a handfull of vampires left alive. they were way too eager to use the Mass.

as for the lack of Ancients some maybe killed themselves, but how many new vampires died before they realized their weaknesses, trying to drink water, during the first rainstorm, traditional walking of hot coals, etc.

about who was native to the Nosgoth we all know and love i think that they both were (maybe Janos' BO2 form was part of the curse, ever seen a hungry vampire before?), they lived together (both good or neutral) until they get into a war. i think that they both populated Nosgoth, because neither Janos nor the Sarafan lord (that i know of) claimed the other was from another dimension, Janos would have said he sent them home (even if it wasn't their dimension, just as propaganda) and TSL wouldn't have missed an opportunity to spread propaganda.

warpsavant
10th Jul 2003, 03:58
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Ensuring his bloodline is too risky? Please. Whatever it is that Janos *has to do* as you put it, quite possibly revolves around the survival of the vampire race. (Remember the Pillars belong to the vampires and they're no longer born speech).

Yes, Janos getting killed trying to save some no named kid Vorador raped or whatever is too risky, IMO. Whatever he has to do is more imporatnt than just a few vamps.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

[color=indigo]And that's your choice, but you really haven't offered me anything that would cause me to come up with a better explanation. ;)

Well, Im sure I have in the past, and Im basically at the point were I am tired of speculating, but Ill remind you the vamps are cursed and can no longer reproduce, so there were only so many of them to begin with. Some die by freak supernatural accident, others kill themselves(either fly into the ground :p, or starve), and others are killed by humans they are trying to feed on or get hunted by, whatever. I think there simply wasn't that many to begin, and I just cant get into the idea of them depleting the animals. I rather think it was a huge comet from space. :)


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Well sweetie, :D that's just it, there isn't one. :p (Hence the quotes) To quote my good friend Dr. Phil: "There is no reality; only perception." and "There is no good news or bad news, only news.". This would also go back to the *shades of grey* arguement. It's all in the perception. If you think you're acting for the greater good, (something that will benefit you and will work for you in some way, shape or form) then who am I to dispute that? My perception may differ entirely, and I may think you're wrong and have my own idea of the *greater good*, which you probably won't agree with either. Welcome to a circular discussion. ;)

Exactly.



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

But you're not disputing he has had access to priviledged information either. (Whether it came from time-streaming remains to be seen - I was being hypothetical with that statement). Something to ponder over I am sure.

No, Im sure Raziel tells him something, if not, at least the Ancients who came up with the whole idea in the first place must of told him something. Somebody had to make the Pillars and then wait for the Guardians to be born and grow up. Somewhere in here Janos had to be told what it is he was to do.


Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

No, because the Winged Ancients never intended the blade to be enhanced with and or/devour souls. (SR2 ending dialogue). This is the reason why I don't believe that the Nexus Stone was an ancient Hylden artifact. It was discovered (or created) after the blade exhibited soul-reaving abilities. (Sometime after BO1 I would assume). The ballgame was changed when the reaver became a soul reaver, and ultimately the players had to adapt and did.

I think some of the players wanted it to be a Soul Reaver.



Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

You can not sit here and tell me that an entire race was depicted in the murals or in any of their tanks. The numbers are purely speculative. I won't dispute that humans weren't fair game for Hylden experiments, but the entire race being experimented on at once is absurd. I am not disputing the manufacturing of humanity just in case the Hylden happen to take the current ones out is whack. It is. Objectively speaking, for a race that is dedicated to using whatever means necessary to return to glory, it's more than justified in their eyes, IMO.

I could, but I won't. I cant actually, because I can't copy and paste some of the conversations I was refering to.(AGAIN, Im not talking about murals, Im sick of murals and there double/triple meanings) We all know you experiment on the one human to perfect whatever it is they wanted to do to all of them! LOL I never meant to imply the whole race was an experiment at once or anything, where did you get that? My point is that all the humans who were unfortunate enough to be located where the Hylden City/Gate was were either slave labor for the Hylden or dead. Or experiments. Its my guess they would have done this to humanity all over Nosgoth, eventually.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 04:44
Originally posted by someguysteve
i wonder why vampires are so important to the pillars, they originally belonged to the Ancients and the only (maybe) similarity between human vampires and the Ancient vampires would be those bestowed by the curse.

If you are getting at the Pillars requiring vampires specificially to function, I don't think that's the case. It's clear that once the Ancients (which later became vampires) were of no use, the Pillars adapted to select human guardians instead. I've read some speculation on procreation between the Ancients and humans, and perhaps that would apply here.


Originally posted by someguysteve
some African tribes drink cattle blood, and in Scotland they have black pudding (cooked blood+oatmeal), actually i think its of English origen

I am not disputing that Blood isn't ingested for snacks or ritualistic purposes. What I am saying is that consumption of blood is not essential to survival.


Originally posted by someguysteve
i think he means the Mass which would have killed all of the humans and the remaining vampires, but they didn't have to use it, they were already in charge of a society dedicated to their destruction and there was only a handfull of vampires left alive. they were way too eager to use the Mass.

Your first sentence is true, however it was clear that the vampires were still around (despite being in smaller numbers) and could very well (as we see in BO2) ruin that Hylden-dominated society, paving the way for the preservation of their species. If the Hylden were way too eager to use the Device, then why did they not just use it and get it over with?


Originally posted by someguysteve
as for the lack of Ancients some maybe killed themselves, but how many new vampires died before they realized their weaknesses, trying to drink water, during the first rainstorm, traditional walking of hot coals, etc.

I am not disputing the fact they didn't die because they were naive to their gift. I was disputing the fact the all didn't just decide to commit suicide one day.


Originally posted by someguysteve
about who was native to the Nosgoth we all know and love i think that they both were (maybe Janos' BO2 form was part of the curse, ever seen a hungry vampire before?), they lived together (both good or neutral) until they get into a war. i think that they both populated Nosgoth, because neither Janos nor the Sarafan lord (that i know of) claimed the other was from another dimension, Janos would have said he sent them home (even if it wasn't their dimension, just as propaganda) and TSL wouldn't have missed an opportunity to spread propaganda.

Anubis and I have played around with this before as well. On one hand I believe that they both originate from two different areas of the planet Nosgoth is on. (As I view Nosgoth as a Continent). On another, (my more non-typical theories) I think that Janos is actually from another dimension, guised as an Winged Ancient. You don't just go to war to go to war though, one of the races had something that the other wanted (be it resources, magic, or whatever). No one claimed they were from another dimension, but also, no one is going to spread propaganda which is going to hurt their cause.

EDIT: Grammatical adjustment.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 05:04
Originally posted by warpsavant
Yes, Janos getting killed trying to save some no named kid Vorador raped or whatever is too risky, IMO. Whatever he has to do is more imporatnt than just a few vamps.

ROTFLMAO! I am sure that if he were actually putting on a charade and had ill-intentions, that yes, allowing his bloodline to trickle off, and claiming it was too risky, would be plausable. (Although I am going to hold you to agreeing with me :p ).


Originally posted by warpsavant
Well, Im sure I have in the past, and Im basically at the point were I am tired of speculating, but Ill remind you the vamps are cursed and can no longer reproduce, so there were only so many of them to begin with. Some die by freak supernatural accident, others kill themselves(either fly into the ground :p, or starve), and others are killed by humans they are trying to feed on or get hunted by, whatever. I think there simply wasn't that many to begin, and I just cant get into the idea of them depleting the animals. I rather think it was a huge comet from space. :)

You've proved to be a fine conversationalist around here. I enjoy the chances we have to bicker like this. :p I am aware that there were a limited number of Winged Ancients pre-curse, however there were enough to make a civilization (which I would assume to be at least 1000 or so and most likely more). I agree that other factors played a role in the demise of the Winged Ancients as well, however I feel that starvation and hunting were the most major reasons.

Interesting notion of the comet. Maybe they're related to the dinosaurs? :D


Originally posted by warpsavant
No, Im sure Raziel tells him something, if not, at least the Ancients who came up with the whole idea in the first place must of told him something. Somebody had to make the Pillars and then wait for the Guardians to be born and grow up. Somewhere in here Janos had to be told what it is he was to do.

I'm one of those people who feel that Janos' guardianship is no more than a title. I also feel that Janos had access to priviledged information, but perhaps obtained that from individuals who we'd least expect. I do believe Vorador would make a good spy...


Originally posted by warpsavant
I think some of the players wanted it to be a Soul Reaver.

Kain sure seems to be counting on it. (As is Moebius and Squiddy) for sure.


Originally posted by warpsavant
I could, but I won't. I cant actually, because I can't copy and paste some of the conversations I was refering to.(AGAIN, Im not talking about murals, Im sick of murals and there double/triple meanings) We all know you experiment on the one human to perfect whatever it is they wanted to do to all of them! LOL I never meant to imply the whole race was an experiment at once or anything, where did you get that? My point is that all the humans who were unfortunate enough to be located where the Hylden City/Gate was were either slave labor for the Hylden or dead. Or experiments. Its my guess they would have done this to humanity all over Nosgoth, eventually.

Now, now. Play fair, Biscuit. :p I will drop the mural issue (for now - my point was made ;) ). I wouldn't assume only one human was a guinea pig, I mean, you have to allow for some mistake in research. I was under the impression that you were referring to the entire human race though. Thanks for clearing that up now :)

The Hylden could've enslaved Nosgoth, but I am curious as to why they hadn't made their move on Meridian if that were the case. Seems to me that they seperated their subjects from their guinea pigs. **shrugs**

EDIT: Spelling adjustment.

Threnodi
10th Jul 2003, 06:45
Just curious here, Umah, but if you're proposing Janos was pretty much spinning a happy tale of peace and virture to win raz over (which first off doesn't seem likely cuz raz was all ready to hate the humans and demons and the lot before Janos said he didn't hate them..I mean why do this? He didn't need to to win Raz's trust, he allready had it.) anyhow, if he is just putting on a face, what do you make of the exchange,

JANOS: The binding must be secured, Raziel. The pillars are the lock-
RAZIEL: -And the reaver is the key.
JANOS: Yes.

And before anyone says the binding is binding raz inside the reaver, that's a no-go. Janos talks of this binding of his being something long in the past:

JANOS: At the time of the Binding, nine guardians were called to serve the pillars.

I still think Raz's 'destiny' as envisioned by Janos and the ancients is to make the pillars somehow be able to take vampire guardians again. Admittedly, this might not be just for benevolent purposes, maybe they could banish more people if they got them back. THAT would be a BIG weapon. Better than the little soul reaver. Especially since the soul reaver doesn't exist after raziel takes it back in time in SR1, and no one had used it for anything tremendos before that. After that it'd be too late.

The ancients wanting control of the pillars again also explans why humans are currently so inportant, -they- have the guardianship. And if this is what they are planning, then I think they -need- Raziel in his body and wielding the reaver, not stuck inside it, unable to directly act with the blade forged for him. Note: Janos also says,

JANOS: The pillars choose their guardians from birth, Raziel - and vampires are no longer born. This is the crux of our dilemma.

This isn't just watch-Janos-pretend-to-be-benevolent stuff. This quote and the lock-key quote have some meat to them, and I don't see how they make sense, why saying those things would steer Raziel into anything that would be helpful to Janos. It's things like that that don't add up with the Janos-is-evil-and-wants-Raz-in-the-sword theories.

Remember also, if you're assuming the soul reaver is just a weapon so powerful everyone wants him to get stuck in it so they can wield it, what of Janos? He dies, for goodness sakes, all his race are dead. Who's interests is he protecting when his race is gone? I really have a hard time envisioning Janos going super-villan and cackling about how he dreams of ruling the world single handedly.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jul 2003, 08:14
Originally posted by Threnodi
Just curious here, Umah, but if you're proposing Janos was pretty much spinning a happy tale of peace and virture to win raz over (which first off doesn't seem likely cuz raz was all ready to hate the humans and demons and the lot before Janos said he didn't hate them..I mean why do this? He didn't need to to win Raz's trust, he allready had it.) anyhow, if he is just putting on a face, what do you make of the exchange,

JANOS: The binding must be secured, Raziel. The pillars are the lock-
RAZIEL: -And the reaver is the key.
JANOS: Yes.

And before anyone says the binding is binding raz inside the reaver, that's a no-go. Janos talks of this binding of his being something long in the past:

JANOS: At the time of the Binding, nine guardians were called to serve the pillars.

I still think Raz's 'destiny' as envisioned by Janos and the ancients is to make the pillars somehow be able to take vampire guardians again. Admittedly, this might not be just for benevolent purposes, maybe they could banish more people if they got them back. THAT would be a BIG weapon. Better than the little soul reaver. Especially since the soul reaver doesn't exist after raziel takes it back in time in SR1, and no one had used it for anything tremendos before that. After that it'd be too late.

Janos didn't know he had Raziel's trust. Whether he did at one time - providing they even met at another time - remains to be seen. However I personally don't believe they met before, therefore there was no sense of trust. What I make of that exchange is just what it entails. I also think that you're a bit quick to put words in our mouths about *binding raz inside the reaver* It has already been established that the reaver was never forged as a soul-stealing weapon (which also implies it was not imbued with a soul either). This being the case, the blood reaver alone was sufficient enough to secure the binding of the demon dimension by locking the Pillars of Nosgoth. You also continue to disregard the notion that I believe that Janos is pulling off a charade in the guise of a Winged Ancient. I believe that the domestic race is the Hylden, and I've mentioned in other threads that I believe Janos is a demon (quite possibly associated with Hash'ak'gik - however that also remains to be seen). If Janos is in control of the reaver, he can single-handedly allow more of his kind to enter Nosgoth and take it over. I do want to correct you on the SR issue. It does exist when Raziel emerges from the Chronoplast at the end of SR1 and the beginning of SR2. It's broken and in the hands of William the Just's tomb. (It does not exist during the point where Raz meets with Janos until the end of the game). Kain was in possession of the Soul Reaver during BO1 and it allowed him to defeat Azimuth and finish out the game. After what, what would be too late? :confused:


Originally posted by Threnodi
The ancients wanting control of the pillars again also explans why humans are currently so inportant, -they- have the guardianship. And if this is what they are planning, then I think they -need- Raziel in his body and wielding the reaver, not stuck inside it, unable to directly act with the blade forged for him. Note: Janos also says,

JANOS: The pillars choose their guardians from birth, Raziel - and vampires are no longer born. This is the crux of our dilemma.

This isn't just watch-Janos-pretend-to-be-benevolent stuff. This quote and the lock-key quote have some meat to them, and I don't see how they make sense, why saying those things would steer Raziel into anything that would be helpful to Janos. It's things like that that don't add up with the Janos-is-evil-and-wants-Raz-in-the-sword theories.

Remember also, if you're assuming the soul reaver is just a weapon so powerful everyone wants him to get stuck in it so they can wield it, what of Janos? He dies, for goodness sakes, all his race are dead. Who's interests is he protecting when his race is gone? I really have a hard time envisioning Janos going super-villan and cackling about how he dreams of ruling the world single handedly.

I do believe that if humans were removed from the equation, that the Pillars would be forced to adapt to finding suitable servants. (Just as they did from the Winged Ancients to humans). If they can't, then they're useless and fade away. Raziel being outside of the reaver, is the problem. He has the ability to think for himself and act for himself. (More importantly rationalize when something appears to be wrong and act accordingly). Right now in this free-for-all, that is a liability. Raziel doesn't want to be in the sword, where did you get that? He's going to end up in the sword, but not because he wants to, because others want him to so that the soul reaver can be complete. You don't need to be sucked into the blade to wield it. (As Kain displayed during BO1 and SR1). Raziel will make the blade complete, he is not meant to wield it, he's meant to be it. As I have explained elsewhere, there are many possibilities as to who Janos is benefitting providing he turns out not to be benevolent. Everyone in this series is flawed, there is no good, no evil, only perception.

EDIT: Grammatical adjustment.

N0V4
10th Jul 2003, 13:07
SO many theories but so little knowledge :D
The truth is we dont know yet...

Osyris
10th Jul 2003, 14:27
after following this conversation i must stick my my nose in for a second. i think threnodil summed up my thoughts on the whole Janos is mallevolent thing when he pointed out that Janos is dead. obviously Raziel Brought him back but he Died saving Raziel.

no other malevolent force has purposfully died to ensure that Raziel do what they wanted. after all if there dead there no assurances that there pawn would do what they wanted.

as for the Hylden being the domestic race. i agree they were, but there is no proof to say that the Winged Ancients are from any other place than Nosgoth either.

i also think that if you look at the super weapons created by both races, one was made to banish there enemies, the other was created to any obliterate there enemies. i think this says a lot about the warring parties and the way they think.

something else occured to me. im probably not the first to mention this but what would happen to Raziel if he was in the presence of the Nexus stone? would it incapacitate him like mobeous's staff did to Janos, or would it mearly incapacitate the reaver, allowing him to wield the blood reaver without being drawn into the blade?

Anubis_Orr
10th Jul 2003, 15:46
Originally posted by Osyris
i also think that if you look at the super weapons created by both races, one was made to banish there enemies, the other was created to any obliterate there enemies. i think this says a lot about the warring parties and the way they think.

Tell me, would you rather be obliterated in an instant or being banished to a Hell-like dimension where you must live forever? Seems banishment is far crueler to me.

"Death is a release, not a punishment."

The Amazing Rando
10th Jul 2003, 17:16
Originally posted by Osyris
after following this conversation i must stick my my nose in for a second. i think threnodil summed up my thoughts on the whole Janos is mallevolent thing when he pointed out that Janos is dead. obviously Raziel Brought him back but he Died saving Raziel.

no other malevolent force has purposfully died to ensure that Raziel do what they wanted. after all if there dead there no assurances that there pawn would do what they wanted.



I'm not sure that Raz brings back Janos. I think he has other things to worry about at the end of SR2, like gettin ginto material realm. Also, I don't remember any of the Sarafan Bros. carrying the Heart around at the end, so they could've easily dumped it off on someone else, like Moe. It could very well be that as Raz goes to see Janos to save him, that Janos is already saved or is not there.

Kain didn't need to die for Raz, cuz that would be what history wanted at that point, so getting himself saved was better off in helping Raz realize he was a paw, and that it could be changed (at least a little). And besides, Janos didn't die saving Raz, only Kain has truely saved Raz. I mean, come on, the worst they could've done was disable the wraith blade, whereas Kain saved Raz from the reaver, the only weapon/being able to destroy him (so far in the series).

My opinion is that it would be very easy for Janos to 'save' Raz and get killed if he was working with Moe and knew he'd get his heart back in no time. That would be a pretty good set up, to die saving Raz to get Raz on his side, even tho he's not gonna stay dead.

Threnodi
10th Jul 2003, 21:01
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
I also think that you're a bit quick to put words in our mouths about *binding raz inside the reaver*

Sorry Umah. This wasn't directed at you, someone was saying that bit about the binding in the 10th guardian thread I think.


You also continue to disregard the notion that I believe that Janos is pulling off a charade in the guise of a Winged Ancient.

..I don't remember reading that. Do you have a link to a post where you talk about that? Sorry if I was being nonsensical due to not fully understanding how you saw things.


If Janos is in control of the reaver, he can single-handedly allow more of his kind to enter Nosgoth and take it over.

Erf? How does that work? I thought it was the pillars that opened dimention doors, not the soul reaver? And if the blood reaver can allready 'open' the pillars or whatever, why is it nessisary for Raz to be imprisoned in it to make it the soul reaver? :makes a confused look of her own:


After what, what would be too late? :confused:

What I was saying here is that looking objectively at major events in the Soul Reaver 1 era:
Kain rules the world.
The ancients, the hylden, they all are apparently dead and gone, insignifigant, or banished. If there are any demons leaking through we see neither hide nor hair of them.
Even the elder doesn't seem as big and powerful as in the demon-era shown in SR2, and mobius is long dead.

1) What I'd conclude from this is that in the SR1 era is that none of these major ancient powers fighting for control in SR2 win and rule the world by the time period shown in SR1.

Also, in SR1 there is a point where Kain breaks the Soul Reaver over Raz. So from that moment forward in time, -there is no soul reaver-. Unless it turns out in defiance someone takes it to the future from the past, after Kain breaks the blade, the soul reaver no longer exists from that point on in time. The wraith blade exists, but raziel takes it with him back in time, so after Raz dissapears from the SR1 time period the wraith blade is gone to.

2) So if no one has used the soul reaver to triumph over their enemies -before- that point, and there is no reaver to use -after- that point, when are these powerful groups planning on attaining and using the reaver to rule the world? With Raziel stuck in the blade they can't even get two blades together at the same time to cause a paradox to nudge history to make a possible change in this hampering future, so they're stuck.

Admittedly Kain saved raziel at the end of SR2, so now they might have a chance to make such a paradox, but if Raziel had been imprisoned in the blade as you seem to think they all want him to be, (except Kain apparently) history could only go one way: They all loose, except for kain who rules the world, then the world dies. My question is how do you see any of these ancient groups benifiting from this? Cuz that's all that -can- happen if they'd managed to get raz in the reaver. And after the events in SR1 they've lost their chance cuz after that the reaver is broken and it's soul gone to the past along with Raz.




Raziel doesn't want to be in the sword, where did you get that?

...huh? when did I say that? I certainly don't think he wants to be in there.


He's going to end up in the sword

Then why do you figure Kain saved him if it's nessisary for him to be in it? :) The games do bear Kain's name, yaknow. So he's probably got -something- up his sleeve. Assumedly a way for destiny to be appeased with neither he or raziel having to give in to the two sided dilemmas. Cuz you're basically setting up the same general situation for Raz kain faced in the first game. I'm waiting to see the third side of Raz's coin mself. ;)


Raziel will make the blade complete, he is not meant to wield it, he's meant to be it. As I have explained elsewhere, there are many possibilities as to who Janos is benefitting providing he turns out not to be benevolent.

But...Why wouldn't the blade be made complete in the first place? Why bother with letting it exist partially as a person with free will in the first place when Raz's free will is, as you noted, so bloody inconvenient?
And what are you guessing will be so special about it when complete? Kain, as you noted wielded the full blade, and all it did was suck souls. Seems like banishing a whole race at once with the pillars is a better weapon than stealing their souls one at a time.

As for the theories as to whom Janos might be benifiting, do you have a link? :) I'd like to read em.

Threnodi
10th Jul 2003, 21:28
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando

My opinion is that it would be very easy for Janos to 'save' Raz and get killed if he was working with Moe and knew he'd get his heart back in no time. That would be a pretty good set up, to die saving Raz to get Raz on his side, even tho he's not gonna stay dead.

The thing is you talk about being "on his side." He's still dead as far as raz knows after that. If he stays dead then he can't influence raz. If he reappears all better then raz would prolly get a mite suspicious...

Vampmaster
10th Jul 2003, 22:02
What if the Seer is how the ancients found out how to create more vampires after the curse? If one of them thought it would be ironic to use the curse put on them by the hylden against a hylden (ie the Seer) and instead of dying she was afflicted by the curse and became part vampire.

EDIT: If Janos is hiding something, I think it would be something he has done as opposed to planning to do. The thing about Janos that scared Kain may be completely unintentional, although...

The ancients originally chose to banish the hylden rather than wipe them out. I beleive the evil ones are whoever wants genocide. At the moment this is only the hylden, however something may have pushed Janos too far to bury his hatred.

And I've already said elsewhere that I think the ancients and the hylden are both originally from Nosgoth. Both the Builder and Janos agree about the device killing everything not hylden so the hylden (or at least whoever's controling them) must be pro-genocide.

Osyris
10th Jul 2003, 22:31
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr[/I]

Tell me, would you rather be obliterated in an instant or being banished to a Hell-like dimension where you must live forever? Seems banishment is far crueler to me. [I]

Im afraid i dont have a quick 'n' snappy comeback for that point. im not sure which is worse...that you go on living in a inhospitible hell dimension or that your entire races is erradicated. not an easy one to argue either way to my mind.

I think my point was though that the Winged Ancients didnt seek the total decimation of there enemies and that they just wanted the Hylden to be so far removed from Nosgoth that they could never be threatened again. it obviously didnt work! but thats not my point.

As for which one is more morally acceptable... i'll stick my neck out and say Genocide is worse. After all, sometimes peaple escape from prisons. The Hylden are a good example.

Vampmaster
10th Jul 2003, 22:41
We havn't seen the other dimension yet. I don't imagine it to be fun exactly, but if the alternative was death I'd at least want to see what it was like before I made the choice.

EDIT: Immortal could just means the hylden have nothing that's likely to wipe out their race or they're just immortal in a similar way to the vampires.

warpsavant
11th Jul 2003, 01:02
Originally posted by Threnodi
Sorry Umah. This wasn't directed at you, someone was saying that bit about the binding in the 10th guardian thread I think.


That was me, and I feel like you are putting words in my mouth now, because when I said that it had nothing to do with Raziel being trapped in the Reaver. Its more like he would be bound to the reaver like the human Guardians have binding items. It didnt have anything to do with him being in the Reaver. Its on page 3 of the 10th Guardian thread. Just wanted to clear theat up. Also what you said made me think about the binding and the vampires being born, something doesn't add up. The Pillars appear and then 9 vamps are born to serve them. Is that the calling? Or is it when they finally grow up and make their way to the Pillars? Or is that the binding? Or did the binding happen as they were being born?

Threnodi
11th Jul 2003, 01:50
No, it wasn't you either warp, it was Rio on pages 3 and 4, saying that


Interesting idea... What if the "binding" is nothing to do with the Pillars at all - but rather the binding of Raziel to the Reaver... And the "monumental joke" Kain speaks of is the fact that Janos seemed benevolent and...

and then later


"But think about it... Kain pulling the Reaver from Raziel creates a paradox - because he prevented the Reaver from binding Raziel to itself... And Janos, before his death, says "The binding must be secured."

Just to clear it up compleatly, those are the posts I was adressing.

EDIT: fixing tags.

warpsavant
11th Jul 2003, 02:17
oops, sorry. I almost forgot about goat boy there for a second.

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 05:31
Originally posted by Threnodi
..I don't remember reading that. Do you have a link to a post where you talk about that? Sorry if I was being nonsensical due to not fully understanding how you saw things.

The related-information has already been provided once in this thread. I certainly trust I do not have to supply it again.


Originally posted by Threnodi
Erf? How does that work? I thought it was the pillars that opened dimention doors, not the soul reaver? And if the blood reaver can allready 'open' the pillars or whatever, why is it nessisary for Raz to be imprisoned in it to make it the soul reaver? :makes a confused look of her own:

According to the "Lock" and "Key" dialogue, obviously the pillars are controlled by the Reaver, which again, was not originally a soul reaver during prehistoric times. A key can either lock or unlock. If the Pillars are unlocked, then Nosgoth is subjected to invasion from other dimensions (specifically in this case, the demon dimension). If they are locked, then
Nosgoth is protected. However as we know in the real world, there are many ways to *pick* or *crack* a lock (without even using the key). Take a lockpick, or bolt cutters or something, and you can open it. In the LOK series, the seal was cracked when Ariel was murdered, and Nupraptor assaulted his fellow Circle members with his psychic abilities. (Ultimately corrupting the pillars, and cracking the lock - presumably allowing The Sarafan Lord to enter the picture at this time). Kain further damned the pillars (and Nosgoth) when he refused the sacrifice. You appear to be missing the concept of Raziel being imprisoned within the Reaver develops an entirely new and improved weapon. You also appear to be missing the concept that once that happens, then the original key design will be enhanced as well. Whoever harnesses that power controls Nosgoth, plain and simple. In the case of Janos, (because of my views on his true identity), he would naturally keep the Pillars unlocked, thus allowing more transdimensional beings to come through to Nosgoth. We already have a good idea of what Kain does with the completed Soul Reaver (SR1-era Nosgoth), and we know what Moebius does with it (gives it to William The Just) and we know what William The Just does with it as well. (The Nemesis). Without the reaver being developed into a Soul Reaver, it's just a blade - a vampiric blade - which is really of no use to the power-hungry individuals. The Elder is counting on Moebius, because he's pretty much hell-bent on *reclaiming* what he considers his (Nosgoth), and using it for his own agendas (which at this point, are not entirely clear).


Originally posted by Threnodi
What I was saying here is that looking objectively at major events in the Soul Reaver 1 era:
Kain rules the world The ancients, the hylden, they all are apparently dead and gone, insignifigant, or banished. If there are any demons leaking through we see neither hide nor hair of them. Even the elder doesn't seem as big and powerful as in the demon-era shown in SR2, and mobius is long dead.

We see The Elder during SR1, and his origins have not been disclosed at this point in time. He doesn't seem as big and powerful? Excuse me. Did you happen to miss the fact his size nearly tripled from SR2-era Nosgoth to SR1-era Nosgoth? And don't give me this *not powerful* spiel, because frankly, he hasn't even exhibited much of his power at this point in the series.


Originally posted by Threnodi
1) What I'd conclude from this is that in the SR1 era is that none of these major ancient powers fighting for control in SR2 win and rule the world by the time period shown in SR1. Also, in SR1 there is a point where Kain breaks the Soul Reaver over Raz. So from that moment forward in time, -there is no soul reaver-. Unless it turns out in defiance someone takes it to the future from the past, after Kain breaks the blade, the soul reaver no longer exists from that point on in time. The wraith blade exists, but raziel takes it with him back in time, so after Raz dissapears from the SR1 time period the wraith blade is gone to.

Just out of curiosity, did you actually play and pay attention to all of the games in the series? The more I read through your responses, the less likely I believe that you have. No one was fighting for power, because Kain already achieved the power. Kain was in control of Nosgoth. The Elder had not interviened with much of anything in SR1 (other than being there when Raziel awakened at the bottom of the Abyss). But the Elder and Moebius were tight, and both of them know which routes to take to alter history (which they appear to be doing at this point). The SR1-era Elder, is merely sitting back awaiting for the events of the past to change in his favor. Remember he also guided Raziel initially too, only the Jawless Wonder has since become more rebellious, and the Elder is washing his tentacles of him. I don't even know if I should bother with your last few sentences (as they appear not to make any sense whatsoever). The Soul Reaver was broken over Raziel's back, ultimately releasing the entity within it. That entity (which we later found out in SR2 is Raziel), did what came natural, attempted to become
whole, and joined with the Jawless Wonder. It's still a Soul Reaver, but it's not a blade. (and I think you continue to disregard that). Again, back to repeating the concept of a sentient Reaver, able to rationalize and act as it wants. (Again, this is a liability). The Soul Reaver exists regardless, however not in blade form. The point at which it is put in blade form, is unclear at this point.


Originally posted by Threnodi
2) So if no one has used the soul reaver to triumph over their enemies -before- that point, and there is no reaver to use -after- that point, when are these powerful groups planning on attaining and using the reaver to rule the world? With Raziel stuck in the blade they can't even get two blades together at the same time to cause a paradox to nudge history to make a possible change in this hampering future, so they're stuck. Admittedly Kain saved raziel at the end of SR2, so now they might have a chance to make such a paradox, but if Raziel had been imprisoned in the blade as you seem to think they all want him to be, (except Kain apparently) history could only go one way: They all loose, except for kain who rules the world, then the world dies. My question is how do you see any of these ancient groups benifiting from this? Cuz that's all that -can- happen if they'd managed to get raz in the reaver. And after the events in SR1 they've lost their chance cuz after that the reaver is broken and it's soul gone to the past along with Raz.

**shakes head** I have already pointed out (on a few occasions in this thread) the individuals who triumphed over their *enemies* with the Soul Reaver. I am not going to do it again. The only unknown is when exactly the Soul Reaver blade is completed. We've already seen two versions of the Soul Reaver blade go up against one another. The thing that altered history then, is when Kain murdered William The Just during his days as a boy king, and broke his version of the Soul Reaver. Kain wants Raziel in the blade just as much as the next person. I think he's a little more cunning about it though, hence why he prevented Raziel from being consumed when he should've been. You seem to be forgetting why Nosgoth continued to suffer
and the land appeared to be *dead* in SR1. Kain is the Balance Guardian, and the last member of the Circle to be cleansed). The fate of Nosgoth is in his hands, and until he dies, the land continues to degenerate. The world presumably can be restored, should someone else be victorious in obtaining the completed Soul Reaver blade. Because all they have to do is seek out and destroy Kain. I don't think Kain would really be all that of a match if someone actually tried killing him with that weapon. He didn't really manage well against The Sarafan
Lord now did he? When you get around to comprehending this, let me know.


Originally posted by Threnodi
...huh? when did I say that? I certainly don't think he wants to be in there.

You said that here:


Originally posted by Threnodi
It's things like that that don't add up with the Janos-is-evil-and-wants-Raz-in-the-sword

theories.


Originally posted by Threnodi
Then why do you figure Kain saved him if it's nessisary for him to be in it? :) The games do bear Kain's name, yaknow. So he's probably got -something- up his sleeve. Assumedly a way for
destiny to be appeased with neither he or raziel having to give in to the two sided dilemmas. Cuz you're basically setting up the same general situation for Raz kain faced in the first game. I'm
waiting to see the third side of Raz's coin mself. ;)

But...Why wouldn't the blade be made complete in the first place? Why bother with letting it exist partially as a person with free will in the first place when Raz's free will is, as you noted, so bloody inconvenient?And what are you guessing will be so special about it when complete? Kain, as you noted wielded the full blade, and all it did was suck souls. Seems like banishing a whole race at once with the pillars is a better weapon than stealing their souls one at a time.As for the theories as to whom Janos might be benifiting, do you have a link? :) I'd like to read em.


Kain obviously altered the course of events that would've transpired had Raziel been consumed by the blade at that point in time. Kain isn't stupid, and he's also had access to privilged information through his Chronoplast adventures I'm sure. There is more to the blade than just serving as the key to the pillars, (obviously you haven't grasped that concept yet either). For the last time, Kain will rule Nosgoth with the blade. He will vanquish his foes, with the blade, and he will be virtually invincible with the blade. That along with his current *role* in the storyline, makes it that much more worthwhile to him. And again with the links, I've already provided them here, you can utilize them when it's convenient for you.

EDIT: Formatting adjustments.

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 05:37
Anubis ~ Much obliged for saving me the step. I have lists to uphold. :p ;)


Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
I'm not sure that Raz brings back Janos. I think he has other things to worry about at the end of SR2, like gettin ginto material realm. Also, I don't remember any of the Sarafan Bros. carrying the Heart around at the end, so they could've easily dumped it off on someone else, like Moe. It could very well be that as Raz goes to see Janos to save him, that Janos is already saved or is not there.

At this point, Raziel or Vorador doing it is the most likely. I've thought about Moebius actually doing it, but for that to happen, it would have to play towards the furtherment of his and Squiddy's cause, and I just haven't come up with a plausible reason why at this point. I will stick with Raziel or Vorador doing it though.


Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
Kain didn't need to die for Raz, cuz that would be what history wanted at that point, so getting himself saved was better off in helping Raz realize he was a paw, and that it could be changed (at least a little). And besides, Janos didn't die saving Raz, only Kain has truely saved Raz. I mean, come on, the worst they could've done was disable the wraith blade, whereas Kain saved Raz from the reaver, the only weapon/being able to destroy him (so far in the series).

Kain definately knows how to play his own cards correctly. Agreed on your last sentiments here.


Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
My opinion is that it would be very easy for Janos to 'save' Raz and get killed if he was working with Moe and knew he'd get his heart back in no time. That would be a pretty good set up, to die saving Raz to get Raz on his side, even tho he's not gonna stay dead.

Anubis and I have debated back and forth over the possibilities of Janos actually being against Moebius and Squiddy. This is part of the reason why I just prefer to call it a free-for-all at this point, because I can sense a lot more betrayal on all sides in LOKD. I don't think Janos would work with Moebius on account that I really can't see how it furthers either of their causes. The Jawless Wonder seems to be pretty tight with Janos, but he isn't with Moebius. (That's pretty clear). Also, Raz appeared to be on Janos' *side* even before Janos was killed, and appears to want to continue being so (until his eyes are opened), so I don't really agree with your last sentence here.


Originally posted by The Threnodi
The thing is you talk about being "on his side." He's still dead as far as raz knows after that. If he stays dead then he can't influence raz. If he reappears all better then raz would prolly get a mite suspicious...

Raziel would not be suspicious if Raziel ends up being the one to resurrect Janos, now would he?


Originally posted by Vampmaster
What if the Seer is how the ancients found out how to create more vampires after the curse? If one of them thought it would be ironic to use the curse put on them by the hylden against a hylden (ie the Seer) and instead of dying she was afflicted by the curse and became part vampire.

I personally don't like this argument. (Not enough there to persude me of it). I am still willing to believe that the Seer's vampiric qualities were a result of her being a traitor to the Hylden in some way. (More specificially The Sarafan Lord). I believe she was cursed just as the rest of the Winged Ancients were.


Originally posted by Vampmaster
EDIT: If Janos is hiding something, I think it would be something he has done as opposed to planning to do. The thing about Janos that scared Kain may be completely unintentional, although...

The ancients originally chose to banish the hylden rather than wipe them out. I beleive the evil ones are whoever wants genocide. At the moment this is only the hylden, however something may have pushed Janos too far to bury his hatred.

And I've already said elsewhere that I think the ancients and the hylden are both originally from Nosgoth. Both the Builder and Janos agree about the device killing everything not hylden so the hylden (or at least whoever's controling them) must be pro-genocide.

I think that Janos wants to hide both what he has done, and what he plans on doing to rectify what he's done. I disagree with your *evil calls for genocide* argument. I actually believe that is the more humane of the two races. Rid the world of the enemy, quick, easy and painless. The Winged Ancients definately appear more vindictive to have devised a plan of eternal banishment and suffering. The Hylden only fought back to that, by creating an everlasting thirst for blood. If they had to suffer, their enemies would suffer as well, (although not to the same extent).

I am still in agreement about the Hylden being the domestic race. :)


Originally posted by warpsavant
That was me, and I feel like you are putting words in my mouth now, because when I said that it had nothing to do with Raziel being trapped in the Reaver. Its more like he would be bound to the reaver like the human Guardians have binding items. It didnt have anything to do with him being in the Reaver. Its on page 3 of the 10th Guardian thread. Just wanted to clear theat up. Also what you said made me think about the binding and the vampires being born, something doesn't add up. The Pillars appear and then 9 vamps are born to serve them. Is that the calling? Or is it when they finally grow up and make their way to the Pillars? Or is that the binding? Or did the binding happen as they were being born?

Don't you hate that? :p You're also getting back into my theory of the Original Guardians self-proclaiming themselves as such.

The Amazing Rando
12th Jul 2003, 06:37
Well, my thinking behind the whole Janos being resurrected by Moeb is pretty simple: What if Moeb didn't really have time to go check the chronoplasts like he wanted (or at least as much). We're (at least I'm) not exactly positive how much they reveal, or if there's a limit per trip. Maybe they only show so much and then it's an educated guess type of setup. If Raz sparing Kain changed things some, maybe Moeb was busy trying to set up a plan B, or see how it affected his plans, while not getting to see Raz doesn't get trapped. If you're still planning on him playing the pawn, Moeb could've taken the heart during V's attack (after leaving Raz) to go resurrect Janos, knowing Raz was going to get trapped in the blade-not realizing Kain was there to save him, as it wouldn't look very suspicios to a soul in a blade.

anyone ever seen a Bond movie, or Austin Powers, or the old Batman shows(and movies). "I'm going to place him in an over elaborate but easily escapable trap involving an exotic death (or capture in this part)"

"Wait, you're not even going to watch?"

"No, I'm going to close the doors and assume everything goes acording to plan. What?" ;)

Should Moeb have to act quick, as it is quite a trek to J's house, he might just leave early and not even think about it. What a suprise when Raz shows up and finds J alive tho, huh? Just my thoughts.

As for how it could benefit him, perhaps Janos struck a deal with the squid and time streamer to save his race. Sacrifice the savior, so that he becomes the savior-ie:sell him out for Moeb to use his powers (and squiddy's and maybe other Guardians) to help him out in the Ancients war. Maybe Moeb can bring the SR back, so that the Ancients can get the drop on the Hylden, early enough to avoid the curse. Janos could be trying to sell his soul to save the pllanet, making a pact with the devil, so-to-speak. There's a very good chance he's not quite all-there after so many years of lonliness, even tho he lived, he may have started loosing faith, so he decided to go against the prophecies (and his better judgement) to take things into his own hands.

Perhaps the past is based on the future, and the Reaver would save the ancients in battle, before the pillars were made, if they had the blueprint (ie Moeb shows it to them in the past), and then the Pillars can be designed around the Reaver first, to secure the binding earlier and prevent the curse.

Granted, after he got what he wanted, Moeb and the Elder would prob sell Janos out: can anyone say BO2, even tho it still didn't quite work. Dontcha just hate double-agents.

So many possibilities, and this is only one.:)

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 07:30
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
Well, my thinking behind the whole Janos being resurrected by Moeb is pretty simple: What if Moeb didn't really have time to go check the chronoplasts like he wanted (or at least as much). We're (at least I'm) not exactly positive how much they reveal, or if there's a limit per trip. Maybe they only show so much and then it's an educated guess type of setup. If Raz sparing Kain changed things some, maybe Moeb was busy trying to set up a plan B, or see how it affected his plans, while not getting to see Raz doesn't get trapped. If you're still planning on him playing the pawn, Moeb could've taken the heart during V's attack (after leaving Raz) to go resurrect Janos, knowing Raz was going to get trapped in the blade-not realizing Kain was there to save him, as it wouldn't look very suspicios to a soul in a blade.

There are six portals in the chronoplast, Rando. All he would have to do was look at them once. You figure, based on a specific course of action, you have a specific result. It's pretty clear from Raziel's encounter with the portals, that they only show a limited result, and no course of action that will bring it about. Because of this, I agree that it's a matter of educating a guess at which course of action to take. You also seem to be forgetting that technically Moebius doesn't even need to view the portals, when he can simply stream directly to the specific eras and observe. Moebius not having the time? Please. :p Time is his toy for crying out loud. Even if Moebius took the heart and fled the stronghold during V's attack, he could very well go back and observe what happened at his convenience or when things died down. (Not to mention, Squiddy keeps tabs on things in his own-right. Also, Moebius wasn't there when Raz spared Kain, yet he knew about it, and how to act accordingly.


Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
anyone ever seen a Bond movie, or Austin Powers, or the old Batman shows(and movies). "I'm going to place him in an over elaborate but easily escapable trap involving an exotic death (or capture in this part)"

"Wait, you're not even going to watch?"

"No, I'm going to close the doors and assume everything goes acording to plan. What?" ;)

Should Moeb have to act quick, as it is quite a trek to J's house, he might just leave early and not even think about it. What a suprise when Raz shows up and finds J alive tho, huh? Just my thoughts.

I will agree that Moebius doesn't have all the answers, or options explored and figured out, so that he can use them when necessary. Kain being the unpredictable wild-card is a problem, but one that can be dealt with and has been dealt with. He's just kept on his toes, that's all. He's still compensating well for the curve-balls he's being thrown, and I am sure he will continue to keep up as long Kain's there to interfere.


Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
As for how it could benefit him, perhaps Janos struck a deal with the squid and time streamer to save his race. Sacrifice the savior, so that he becomes the savior-ie:sell him out for Moeb to use his powers (and squiddy's and maybe other Guardians) to help him out in the Ancients war. Maybe Moeb can bring the SR back, so that the Ancients can get the drop on the Hylden, early enough to avoid the curse. Janos could be trying to sell his soul to save the pllanet, making a pact with the devil, so-to-speak. There's a very good chance he's not quite all-there after so many years of lonliness, even tho he lived, he may have started loosing faith, so he decided to go against the prophecies (and his better judgement) to take things into his own hands.

But you need to remember, I am arguing the point of Janos existing in the guise of a Winged Ancient and actually being a demon. If that's the case, then his race is perfectly fine in the demon dimension. Also, you're not giving me a good reason why Squiddy and Moebius would even honor that deal (as it's totally a threat to their agendas by doing so). Obviously if there were no curse, there would be no need for human guardians later on. There goes Moe right out of the picture. Now why the hell would he want to do that? He's not that stupid. :p And Squiddy isn't going to get rid of his right-hand man. Also, it's pretty clear that Squiddy has been around for a long time, and has had his beady little squid eyes set on conquering Nosgoth for himself. His agendas would've been directed at the Ancient Races anyway, curse or not. Sorry dear, but this just doesn't fly. Janos is of sound mind and body. He's vindictively premeditating everything. The propehcies are a combination of fairy tales and propaganda, all to allow everything to fall right in his lap.



Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
Perhaps the past is based on the future, and the Reaver would save the ancients in battle, before the pillars were made, if they had the blueprint (ie Moeb shows it to them in the past), and then the Pillars can be designed around the Reaver first, to secure the binding earlier and prevent the curse.

Granted, after he got what he wanted, Moeb and the Elder would prob sell Janos out: can anyone say BO2, even tho it still didn't quite work. Dontcha just hate double-agents.

So many possibilities, and this is only one.:)

I am curious, did you ever stop to think that the *prophecies* are Janos' step-by-step plans of what he's had and has up his sleeves and what the result will be if he's victorious? Right now, there's documentation of the first war between Ancients and Hylden, and the forging of the original reaver and erection of the pillars. Then there's the banishment, and the destruction of the Ancient Race. He's documented the completion of the Soul Reaver, (along with him wielding it for his purposes). He's cured of the bloodcurse, while the rest of the vampire race continues to suffer. He's documented the Hylden return as they again suffer a cruel fate, only this time it's death. Even the demons are returning to claim the land, and we thought it mere coincidence. (Even Janos resembles them in beast form for crying out loud). Tell me, that's not typical villainous behavior? To flaunt your agendas out for the world to see, and have them blatently ignored? I'm sorry, but if this is the case, then pretty much everyone's being played as a fool.

I do agree that there are a lot of possibilities. I do so enjoy coming up with some rather, eccentric ones though. ;)

The Amazing Rando
12th Jul 2003, 08:00
well, I'm just gonna reply to one part of your post, because I'm dling something, and I've had to restart a couple times, where it would start up again where it was and actually run a little faster-but now it decided to start completely over and I'm pissed.

You asked why squiddy and Moe would help out and agree to the deal and hold to it. I thought I'd pointed out, tho maybe not clear enough, that they wouldn't, but it would be unlike them to not lie if it would get them another pawn. Totally within their reach to just say one thing and double cross you when you're not useful-true villian style. And I'm going from the pov that Janos isn't a demon. ;) Can make all the difference.

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 08:43
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
As for how it could benefit him, perhaps Janos struck a deal with the squid and time streamer to save his race. Sacrifice the savior, so that he becomes the savior-ie:sell him out for Moeb to use his powers (and squiddy's and maybe other Guardians) to help him out in the Ancients war. Maybe Moeb can bring the SR back, so that the Ancients can get the drop on the Hylden, early enough to avoid the curse. Janos could be trying to sell his soul to save the pllanet, making a pact with the devil, so-to-speak. There's a very good chance he's not quite all-there after so many years of lonliness, even tho he lived, he may have started loosing faith, so he decided to go against the prophecies (and his better judgement) to take things into his own hands.

This is exactly what you said earlier. How does this all of a sudden prove that Squiddy, Moebius and Janos wouldn't agree to a deal exactly? If they wouldn't agree to a deal, then why did you even bring it up in the first place? :confused: :p

The Amazing Rando
12th Jul 2003, 09:03
Let me try once again, they would agree to a deal, which Janos would go into due to my speculation above. They would bring him back and he wouldn't suspect anything yet, not knowing that Moe and Squid won't live up to the deal (aka:they won't hold up their end of the bargain, unbeknownst to Janos), only using Janos a bit longer, then getting rid of him (ala BO2), or, if you want to say that Moe did know about the end, maybe he would still raise him to make Raz suspicious of Janos (whether or not there was a deal).

that last part is just something else that could be, but it's in no way related to the original idea I had.

Original idea=standard double cross. Janus & Moe agree to deal (I showed J's logic above), Janus gets used, Janus gets dumped. That's it.:)

warpsavant
12th Jul 2003, 18:18
I can't see Janos working with Moebius, Moebius is part of the Circle that helps destroy his race. Im guessing Janos knows who Moebius is, and like the rest of us, thinks he is an *******. Why would make a deal with this guy? Maybe if it was way in the past...

Whats more likely (IMO) is Moebius raises Janos to use as a hostage or to trade him to his Hylden buds.

L_Master562
12th Jul 2003, 20:03
.....as being good possibilites. But Moebius being tossed curve balls, I don't really think so. Who needs to stream all time when you just have to focus around Kain and all the branches off that. He easily found out all that would happen, yet still found counterpoints to all that Kain could try to alter. I find the altered future after Sr2 (Bo2 timeline) to be good proof that everyone has their own plans taken care of but Kain and are still allowing his own ideas of how to rewrite time to guide him into trouble.

I think the Hylden/Elder God/Moebius are in on it together if by their plans working towards all of their combined goals in unison and such, but I'd leave Janos out. He has been used by others as a way to further their own ends in manipulation and such, but that was it. If Moebius knew Janos would simply be chucked in the Demon Dimesion portal in the end of the time meddling anyways, why not just let time do that. He would. I always took him as the one to allow others to fall without doing anything if it bettered him. He let the brothers fall, he let the circle fall, he let Janos fall, and he created a screwed up time prison. All to further what he wanted and as an attribute of his personality that makes me think of him as a loner pawning others into action. Janos couldn't offer Moebius anything he couldn't force into reallity on his own. He had his orb to debilitate vampires, he sicked the Sarafan brothers on him, he died. If he was brought back he was in captivity and couldn't do anything. if Moebius could get something out of him during that time he might take it as a stretch of my ideas, but I don't think so.

Zephonim
12th Jul 2003, 20:27
well "time" will tell about the escapades of moby its already been 3 months since the fever of defiance gripped me and November is drawing closer and closer,i just hope everything goes to plan and the game is finished by then.