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fneh
5th Jul 2003, 09:55
We all know that in BO1 kain went back and killed william. The future kain returned to was a much different one to where he came from. On this new timeline kain would have had no reason to go back in time to kill william so surely there's another kain running about? Would this kain not be the actual balance guardian (assuming ariel isn't still it) and the kain we see is just the result of a paradox?


I HATE time travel.


Sorry! I meant ARE there 2 kains not Is. My grammar is terrible lately....

Zephonim
5th Jul 2003, 11:26
well theres an abundance of raziels (so to speak) so you never know
and you could go mad thinkin about time travel loop this , paradox that etc
and its kinda the same for raziel he kills himself so kain can make him a vampire but in the first time round i.e before the loop started there would be no future raziel to kill human raz , i think!

I dont know much about time travel so with me its all in 1 era out the other:D

Matt from Spam Buddies
5th Jul 2003, 11:29
Originally posted by fneh
We all know that in BO1 kain went back and killed william. The future kain returned to was a much different one to where he came from. On this new timeline kain would have had no reason to go back in time to kill william so surely there's another kain running about? Would this kain not be the actual balance guardian (assuming ariel isn't still it) and the kain we see is just the result of a paradox?


I HATE time travel.

Meh? :confused:

- Matthew

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 11:35
matthew:

- kain went back in time to kill william because he was destroying nosgoth

- kain killed william and made the paradox

- kain returned to the present to find the world was different. there was the war on vampires and such.

- the soul reaver kain made a paradox with was taken from a different time. kain broke the reaver of the new timeline and possessed the soul reaver of a now deleted timeline. Kain is also a product of a now non existant timeline

- this means that kain was born into both timelines and would have lead different lives in each timeline right? afterall, in the new timeline kain never needed to go and kill the nemesis

- oddly all the guardians were also still dead yet they may not have been killed on this timeline. THe changes would be unbelievable..............

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 11:38
Originally posted by Zephonim
well theres an abundance of raziels (so to speak) so you never know
and you could go mad thinkin about time travel loop this , paradox that etc
and its kinda the same for raziel he kills himself so kain can make him a vampire but in the first time round i.e before the loop started there would be no future raziel to kill human raz , i think!

I dont know much about time travel so with me its all in 1 era out the other:D


this was done properly actually:



1. sarafan raziel was killed by a blue demon (raziel)
2. kain took sarafan raziel and made him a vampire
3. kain threw him into the abyss
4. he was reborn
5. he went back in time and killed himself

it's a circle. sarafan raziel had ALWAYS been killed by his future self. there was no paradox made when raziel killed him. It was always supposed to happen.

Zephonim
5th Jul 2003, 11:54
ok fneh but what i was meaning was that time defies all laws of physics so yuou dont know what the hell could happen, human raziel had to die in the first place to make vamp/soul raz that was my point as 2 how there could be more kains,but as i said its time we are dealing with thats y raz could kill himself

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 11:58
Ah yes, of course. That was just a display of fate I suppose. It just showed how it happened even before the events preceeding it. I wonder how the evens would have unfolded if kain told raziel this happened.....while kain had the soul reaver during sr2 of course. they could make a verbal paradox!!!!!

Matt from Spam Buddies
5th Jul 2003, 12:00
Euh... I just woke up. I'm still very woozy. After a few cups of coffee I think I'll have a look at fneh's theory... at the moment I'm too stupid to figure it out.

But as for Zephonim, I know what You mean. There was supposed to be a demon Raziel in the beginning to kill the human Raziel.

But, it's a circle, is it not?

Zephonim, take a piece of paper, a pencil and draw a circle on the paper using that pencil.
Now, show me where's the beginning and the end of that circle.

That's right - there's not a beginning and an end. It's a circle. Infinite loop.

- Matthew

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 12:03
the begining and ends are the bits where the line links!!!!:D :p

unless you draw it on a computer of course!

Zephonim
5th Jul 2003, 12:11
yeah yeah but it was a loop made by some dark forces anyway so what does it matter hes gonna be scewed anyway so i have heard
and the loop has been changed now as raz was not(yet?)cosumed by the reaver so "Time" will tell

try drawing that with your pancil and paper!:p :D :p

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 12:15
Originally posted by Zephonim
yeah yeah but it was a loop made by some dark forces anyway so what does it matter hes gonna be scewed anyway so i have heard
and the loop has been changed now as raz was not(yet?)cosumed by the reaver so "Time" will tell

try drawing that with your pancil and paper!:p :D :p


Raziel was never intended to be devoured then. It was a false destiny moebius made for him like the one made for kain in BO. Raziel was destined to restore the pillars at the very least before being trapped within the reaver. For some reason moebius didn't want the restoration to happen...

Matt from Spam Buddies
5th Jul 2003, 12:17
Sheesh... :rolleyes:

Well, Copernicus managed to draw a PERFECT circle with just a pencil.

So there You have it... be more like... Copernicus... :D :p

- Matthew

Vampmaster
5th Jul 2003, 12:43
Kain says history only allows minor changes unless there are two Reavers. There was only one Reaver when Kain first used the time streaming device in BO1 so it's possible he travels back in time and tries to kill the Nemisis no matter what and all the two reavers do is allow him to succeed. The problen with Kain having do need to kill William if he oesn't have a reason to is similar to the problem of the broken reaver. When kain killed William and broke the Reaver, I expect history was reshuffled to arrange for Raz to heal the Reaver averting the contradiction. I imagine that it would have arranged for Kain to go back and kill William as well.

That's what the reshuffling is: The arranging for new event to occur that make it so the change in history is no longer contradicting itself.

Matt from Spam Buddies
5th Jul 2003, 12:51
Yes...

But what about those LOK-D screenshots of Kain on that bridge? :confused:

It's in a high location... it's snowing... there are a lot of Sarafans there...

What is that place? Malek's Bastion? William's Retreat? The Sarafan Stronghold? Or some other yet unknown place?

It's really strange. What are Your thoughts and comments on this one? Theories? My friend think it's Malek's Bastion, but... what is Kain doing there? :eek: He isn't supposed to kill Malek yet.

What if it's William's Retreat? :eek:

- Matthew

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 13:00
maybe kain does go and kill malek....we don't know. everyone assumes raziel is going to kill him but no one thought that KAIN might do it! That would be cool. Kain goes back hundreds of years to finish what he couldn't back in BO

Zephonim
5th Jul 2003, 13:33
do you mean kill the sarafan malek or the soul trapped in armour malek cos if its taking off from where sr2 ended ,then perhaps maleks soul will not be tied to the armour after voradors slaughter of the circle, it will be consumed by the the reaver or something then that could lead to a new character to take his place as a pillar gurdian??any thoughts

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 13:48
I meant the malek that vorador supposedly kills for kain but we don't see the entire fight. Lots of ppl think that raziel will be fighting him but that was before kain was also playable..

Lady_D
5th Jul 2003, 14:11
Just the thought of having 2 Kains around at the same is scary :eek:

Apocrypha Roxy
5th Jul 2003, 17:45
I second that, Lady_D!


I have no idea what the three of you have been saying for the past 20 posts or so.

I only understood the Copernicus reference, and the circle of Raziel's destiny. That's it.

What the HELL?

:confused:

Threnodi
5th Jul 2003, 20:40
Well the way I figure, since Kain still -remembers- going back to the past and killing William and he has no second parallell memory for thattime (like he seems to be getting at the end of Soul Reaver 2 for example..he seems to be getting all the split memories from 1) the timeline they were in, and 2) the new timeline history had reshuffled to avoid paradox) Anyhow, in BO he never mentions having alternate memories about his other self not going back in time, so whatever new timeline he created by killing william apparently was a timeline where the future Kain still went back and Killed William. So there's probably not two of him. In a sense Kain too was 'reshuffled' to -be- the Kain from the new timeline he creates. After killing william he -became- the Kain who exists in a world with no nemisis, -but- a Kain who nonetheless has shadow memories of a different reality, the reality he left where there was a nemisis. He has knowledge that not killing william would result in the nemisis. We know he still remembers all this, he tells raziel the whole story (apparently for the millionth time) in SR2. So I don't think there's two kains, they sorta merged in a sense cuz the new Kain would -have- to have shadow memories of the alternate timeline to have a reason to go back in time and kill william. So he -is- the new timeline Kain, but he remembers his alternate past.

And since only the minimum ammount of changes history can get away with are made, all the guardians kain killed he had still killed in this new timeline. At least that's how I figure it. :)

EDIT: wow, I guess I'm not fully awake either, I put enough -emphasis- in there to choke a horse. :P So does this make sense to anyone else or am I just helping everyone's head spin faster? :)

Kazael
5th Jul 2003, 21:02
I think Therondi has the gist of it, but here's my explanation in case you had difficulty understanding his (not that mine will be much more comprehensible... .).

If I understand fneh correctly, he's saying that in the new timeline created when Kain murders William, a new Kain is born. This Kain would have no reason to go back in time and kill William, since he's already dead. So there are two Kains. Time traveler Kain who murdered William, and the new Kain who didn't.

I don't think this is correct. When Kain killed William, history would have "reshuffled" itself. Kain's memories would have changed with it. He'd still remember killing William, having just done so, but his memories of the rest of his life would be different. You see, there's still only one]/i] Kain. The Kain we know [i]is the Kain born into the new timeline.

History allows only the smallest changes. In the new timeline, William never becomes the Nemesis, and his death is the spark that ignites the Vampire Purge. Little else, however, would change. Kain was still assassinated, still became a vampire, and still murdered the other Pillar Guardians. So I think the question isn't "are there two Kains" but rather why, in the new timeline, did Kain decide to journey back in time in the first place?

Vampmaster
5th Jul 2003, 22:53
If I understand fneh correctly, he's saying that in the new timeline created when Kain murders William, a new Kain is born. This Kain would have no reason to go back in time and kill William, since he's already dead. So there are two Kains. Time traveler Kain who murdered William, and the new Kain who didn't.

I'm saying history would be reshuffled so that the new version of Kain would have gone back anyway. Maybe for a different reason. It's like they merged into one.

The paradox is: Why did Kain go back and kill William if William never become the Nemesis?

History abhors this. So events are reshuffled to provide a solution to the question above and then it's no longer a paradox.

Threnodi
7th Jul 2003, 02:40
Originally posted by Kazael
I think Therondi has the gist of it, but here's my explanation in case you had difficulty understanding his

hers, in fact. ;)

And as for both of you who seem to wonder what motivation the reshuffled Kain had for going back in time and killing William to avoid paradox, it seems history patched this up nicely:

Kain still has memories from -both- timelines.

We -know- he has both sets of memories, because the reshuffled Kain we know in the SR games tells Raziel in SR2 about the nemisis, and how Kain witnessed the nemisis' rise to power in his youth. He still retains the memories from the aborted timeline, he still remembers why William needs to die. But only he does, since he's the only one that needs to. History made the minimum ammount of changes nessisary.

Apocrypha Roxy
7th Jul 2003, 02:46
Heyyy...

Now I get it...

Thanks! That actually makes perfect sense!!!

:)

Kazael
7th Jul 2003, 03:34
Originally posted by Threnodi
hers, in fact. ;)

Er... Oops. Sorry.

The_Hylden
7th Jul 2003, 04:26
Yes, since Kain's own words describe that time flows around the petty actions of the irritant, finding the path of least resistance, the "new" Kain still would have to go back and kill William The Just. For whatever reason, perhaps it would be as simple as this.

Kain must go back to kill WTJ to avoid a fatal paradox. Time cannot exist if it is met by an obstacle it cannot course around. Either the irritant, or time itself will be expunged. So, maybe that was Kain's new reasoning in this timeline. Ariel, or whomever, telling him that there is a far worse damnation of all of Nosgoth then the Pillars' corruption, if he does not go back to destroy this said WTJ, then he will destroy time itself. that's a pretty good reason to do something.

Threnodi
7th Jul 2003, 21:00
(No prob, Kazael.)

His memories would probably be sufficient motivation to go back.

And the thing is Kain can't really destroy time. It's a lot more powerful than him. Even with two reavers he said, if you change something that can't be reconsiled, it's -you- that gets expelled, so history doesn't have to deal with you messing things up. It's not Kain choosing to not destroy time, it's Time forcing Kain down the path it wants. He is physically unable to take any other meaningful course, right up till that moment when he is fighting william and there's two reavers. And even if he tried to change things in that one possible instant, while in the heat of battle with William, what really, could he do?

The best he could do would be to struggle to -not- kill william. But it seems to methat'd only make things many times worse.

In all likelyhood this would -still- ignite the genocideal war, since Kain would still have attacked william, the beloved boy king.
On top of which it would -still- leave William in power, to rise again as the nemisis, only now with a hatered of vampires.
On top of which if kain exerted the massive concentration and force of will nessisary to hedge and not kill william...william most likely would take the oppurtunity to kill Kain.

So kain is pretty much stuck with killing will now.

punkst4r
11th Jul 2003, 06:24
I do think that there are two kains BO2 kain and BO1/SR/SR2 kain,because according to BO1/SR/SR2 kain never met the hylden but he did in BO2 and some how his memories from the alternate time line and his current memories collided when he and raziel made the paradox.That explains why Raziel said that he could see in kains eyes NEW memories or something like that......I think that at that time both kains lives became one,because you can't have memories if you didnt experience them.As you can all see i'm not very good at explaining things because I try to type all my thoughts before I forget so I don't really think it through.If this is true(my theory)(if you guys even understand it) then it explains why there isn't gonna be a BO3 and/or SR3.....because both time lines collide with each other (just like the game series).I guess since the BO1/SR/SR2 kain altered his time line by killing william he had to go through so many paradoxes to finally come back to what we all know as BO2 time line.I am so :confused: :confused:

Umah Bloodomen
11th Jul 2003, 07:11
It depends on what period of time you are in, whether or not there are two seperate Kains. Obviously a future Kain (SR1-era) who travels back to BO-era Nosgoth, stands a chance of running into his human or fledgling self.

Also, the paradox (that occurred in the past - SR2) altered the future (and created BO2), but the Kain who is hit with these *new memories* is from a future even past those events (he's from SR1-era Nosgoth). That Kain would've lived through BO2, and therefore did experience those events, and remembered them in his future self (which is the Kain we encounter during SR2). Also keep in mind that time is merely altering, while continuing to move forth afterwards.

And for the love of a higher power, get off the BO3/SR3 issue. They're not going to happen, deal with it. :rolleyes:

Vampmaster
11th Jul 2003, 18:03
Kain could run into his past self, but as we were disscussing before he probably wouldn't run into an alter-Kain from the timeline made in BO1.

The_Hylden
11th Jul 2003, 18:43
Umah is right, time in LOK is a loop, an infinite loop. Hence, the "Moebius" use as time guardian and his symbol, the Moebius strip. Kain may have the memories of the previous "course" of time, but that course has been altered slightly to warp and flow around the paradox. There is only one reality still, time is altered, but the flow is one stream. There is only one Kain, however he has lived in through time's loop and now has altered it, creating new memories of his rebirth and subsequent "unlife". Apparently even if altered, time will find a way to pull itself back somewhere in the future so that it doesn't veer off entirely. "Only the slightest alterations." That is how I see it pre-Defiance. Who knows what drastic changes are made in this upcoming game.

diuqSehT
11th Jul 2003, 18:44
Dudes! Dudettes! The games are confusing, but not this confusing!

There's only one Kain. Only one timeline. (The one that currently IS.) The others exist only in memory, not in reality. New-timeline-Kain doesn't need to go back and kill William again to "fulfill history." In fact he can't. He's already done it. In Blood Omen he comes back to the same moment in his life that he timetraveled from, and picks things up from there in the new timeline with new memories. The timestreaming trip is already in his past when he gets back.



(And IMO the reaver time loop only goes round once. As soon as Raz completes the circle by getting sucked into the blade, that's it. His entire lifespan has been lived. He'll have no further opportunites for choosing new paths. The cirlce will be complete and set in stone. He'll have no recollection of living it over and over in some kind of timeless hell. Because then he could start changing things each time he looped, and Moebius is hoping for just the opposite--to freeze the reaver loop forever as it is, before Raziel can succeed in becoming the savior of Nosgoth.)

The_Hylden
11th Jul 2003, 19:00
Well, dude, or dudette, that's what I just said!:D

The first part.:rolleyes:

I agree, he is in the Reaver and trapped, but then once a few millennia have gone by, the Reaver gets shattered over Raziel again, now the Raziel in the blade is freed and becomes the "new" younger Raziel's Wraith Blade. Then, after the going back in time, the Wraith, which in the previous loop was the younger Raziel, now impales that younger Raziel with the Reaver. That is the cycle. The question that is not known is what then happens to the Wraith Blade? That is the continuation of Raziel, he doesn't just cease to be once trapped inside the Reaver. He completes the loop again as the Wraith Blade and THEN discontinues his cycle to whatever then happens to his soul.

diuqSehT
11th Jul 2003, 19:00
Yeah we were one minute apart.

Additional thought:

Remember when the reaver stuck to Raziel's hand and he had no choice but to get sucked into it? That's because it had already happened that way. He didn't get any choice in the matter. It was simply going to play out. That's the way Kain's "new memories" would be. He would have been compelled to timestream back and kill William at the appropriate time. No decision. He might not even be conscious, seeing as how the act was technically part of a previous timeline. Whoa. Now I'm joining in with the super-confusing silliness. It's fun after all, I guess.

diuqSehT
11th Jul 2003, 19:20
Originally posted by The Hylden
but then once a few millennia have gone by, the Reaver gets shattered over Raziel again, now the Raziel in the blade is freed and becomes the "new" younger Raziel's Wraith Blade.

that's part of what's already happened in SR1. The wraith blade we saw in action already was that "wiser, more educated" wraith blade.

Trollslayer
11th Jul 2003, 19:54
I think that there is only one Kain.

The reshuffling (and subsequent accomodation) of both realities probably made it so that the timestream joined the two realities in order not to destroy itself. And time created a sort of safe option for itself - in order not to be tampered with itself, the death of William before he could become the Nemesis occured, and at the same time the reason for occuring was non-existant, but to avoid that loop time rearranged itself, giving Kain (the main catalyst of the time change/balancing). Kain managed to retain the memory because he was the one with the active hand in the matter (just like Moebius had, when we see him grinning after delaying Malek, stopping him from saving members of the circle from Vorador's assault).

So my theory is...

1) William becomes Nemesis
2) Kain travels back in time and kills William
3) Since William never becomes the Nemesis, the reason for Kain to travel in time disappears....
4) so if he doesn't have a reason to travel back, he doesn't, making it so William becomes the Nemesis again.

So to avoid this loop, it rearranged itself, becoming a continuous stream which carried both realities (the outcome of one (stopping the appearance of the Nemesis) and the continuity of other (the existence of the world without the Nemesis)), and allowed Kain to be aware of this, to avoid the loop from continuing.

Of course, this might all be wrong - im only speculating...

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 01:43
Originally posted by Vampmaster
Kain could run into his past self, but as we were disscussing before he probably wouldn't run into an alter-Kain from the timeline made in BO1.

It really depends on the future Kain's agenda, whether he seeks another version of himself out or not. When all is said and done, he could very well convince his other-self to accept the sacrifice and remove himself from the picture entirely.

And remember, altered timeline does not mean seperate timeline.

The_Hylden
12th Jul 2003, 23:03
that's part of what's already happened in SR1. The wraith blade we saw in action already was that "wiser, more educated" wraith blade.

I know, but in order for Raziel to still be existing with the Wraith Blade, these events HAVE to happen again. In which time, the Raziel we know now has become the "wiser" "more educated" (I haven't seen proof that the older Wraith Blade version of Raziel is more educated, or even able to think, I will go with older) version after long ago getting sucked into the blade. If Raziel gets sucked into the blade, he then becomes the Wraith Blade version, the same one that he now carries as his symbiotic weapon.

And, if Kain were to choose to end his own existence, the timestreme would be drastically changed, if it can't allow it without a compromised changing, the very time stream could destroy itself. Plus, that would not bring him to his goal of restoring his original destiny.

punkst4r
12th Jul 2003, 23:31
Didn't we fight kain's future self in BO1 when mobey was bringing warriors from the past and future?

The_Hylden
12th Jul 2003, 23:40
I think that was a copy, an illusion crafted from the real warriors from those real times. But, that is my opinion.

Threnodi
20th Jul 2003, 08:31
Originally posted by TheSquid

Remember when the reaver stuck to Raziel's hand and he had no choice but to get sucked into it? That's because it had already happened that way. He didn't get any choice in the matter.

Yeah I was sorta thinking that too. :) Same way the sword was trying to stab Kain. And it was physically impossible for Raz to let go of the blade untill that one moment when things wavered and Kain pulled it out.
And the reason Raz fealt that 'nameless dread' I think is cuz the wraithblade 'knew'. it remembered when it was him and got trapped, and he was getting feedback from that traumatic memory through the symbiotic link or whatever. :)

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 11:45
Yep i agree that the "dread" Raz feels is a memory of the WB, but in order for events to transpire the way they did ,Raziel's soul(any of them as there is a few:D )must get trapped in the reaver in order for himself to get reborn as a vampire , break the balde etc.
I wonder if there is a way to trap one of his souls in the blade while actually surviving with a body/shell @ the same time

Vampmaster
20th Jul 2003, 13:09
How about this theory:

If Kain has memories from both timelines then perhaps, at the time he made the decision to kill William he existed in both of the timelines simultaniously. Kind of like how there was a breif moment when Raziels soul was both inside and outside of the blade. I think it's actually the current reality converging with a potential reality. ie where in one reality Raz does get sucked into the blade and in one he doesn't. Same when Kain kills William. There's only one real timeline, but for an instance during the temporal disturbance created by the Reaver, both can exist at once and the disturbance sort of ripples back to the point where the original decision was made.

dklancer
20th Jul 2003, 13:33
Maybe its just a big friggin plothole.
;)

Vampmaster
20th Jul 2003, 15:35
Or maybe no one's actually travelled through time to prove any of the time travel throries. If it doesn't work with one theory, try a different one.

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 18:37
Originally posted by Vampmaster
Or maybe no one's actually travelled through time to prove any of the time travel throries. If it doesn't work with one theory, try a different one.
,,,,But we are travelling through time as we speak/type only we cant choose the direction:p
And i do think its possible for there to be 2 kains @ once
In sr2 hes back in time 100 years from when he got turned and when hes @ the pillars corruption he is just being born ,raziel is also a guy who has many forms and meets himself(his soul)many times and even has it as a travelling companion.
There i said it!http://216.40.249.192/s/ups/kamikaze/smilie_vampire.gif

diuqSehT
20th Jul 2003, 19:49
Originally posted by Vampmaster
If Kain has memories from both timelines then perhaps, at the time he made the decision to kill William he existed in both of the timelines simultaniously. it's actually the current reality converging with a potential reality.

Arousing.

punkst4r
20th Jul 2003, 20:01
Arousing?

http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/cwm/cwm/cwm27.gifhttp://mysmilies.creativesell.net/cwm/cwm/eek7.gif

Vampmaster
20th Jul 2003, 20:38
Originally posted by Zephonim
,,,,But we are travelling through time as we speak/type only we cant choose the direction:p
And i do think its possible for there to be 2 kains @ once
In sr2 hes back in time 100 years from when he got turned and when hes @ the pillars corruption he is just being born ,raziel is also a guy who has many forms and meets himself(his soul)many times and even has it as a travelling companion.
There i said it!http://216.40.249.192/s/ups/kamikaze/smilie_vampire.gif

Alright, I'll rephrase: No one's ever gone to the past so no one knows for sure what would happen if someone tried to alter it.

I'm saying that Kain could meet himself from the future or the past. The past Kain is his former self and the future Kain is what he will be. However I don't think he could run into a version of himself from his own time. That would be a version of himself that neither existed or will exist. It would be the Kain that would/could have been if things had happened differently. If he changes history he becomes this new Kain, so he can't meet him.

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 20:42
yeah i dig you now;) http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/ups/unknown/lsvader.gif

Osyris
20th Jul 2003, 20:50
im sorry but i must ask... how is it that u create those cool animations?? that Luke/ Vader one is quality:D

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 20:58
Originally posted by Osyris
im sorry but i must ask... how is it that u create those cool animations?? that Luke/ Vader one is quality:D
go here http://www.mysmilies.com/?cat=violent&page=3 theres loads just copy the link that appears when u clik on your desired emoticon then insert it as an image
be sure not to copy the from the lnk as the forum page puts it in for you ..ie this http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/ups/unknown/lsvader.gif instead of this [IMG]http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/ups/unknown/lsvader.gif

EDIT: sorry its page 2 for the luke vader one

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 21:02
well forgive my ignorance,cheers

punkst4r
20th Jul 2003, 21:17
You can also go to: http://www.clipartworld.de/lay3/smiley.php?pid=gwd-10594

http://www.clicksmilies.com/


http://www.smilies.okipages.com/s/contrib/edoom/ALD.gif

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 21:19
hoho pity i wouldnt get away with posting those hentai ones :p :D :p :cool:
EDit yeah gettin back on the subject,so you agree that there can be 2 Kains ,just not at the same age,Vampmaster?

Umah Bloodomen
20th Jul 2003, 21:20
This thread is beginning to wander way off the original topic. The author of this thread is entitled to thread integrity, and we can just as well share our image info via Private Channels as opposed to further polluting this thread.

Vampmaster
24th Jul 2003, 21:14
Originally posted by Zephonim
hoho pity i wouldnt get away with posting those hentai ones :p :D :p :cool:
EDit yeah gettin back on the subject,so you agree that there can be 2 Kains ,just not at the same age,Vampmaster?

Sort of. If Kain went half a second into the past and met his former self, by the time things had caught up to when he time travelled he would see his former self go back in time. If for some reason his former self didn't go back in time, then his current self wouldn't have either. Sorry if this is confusing, I'm just finding it hard to explain. OK, try this: You have a tape measure where the numbers on it represent the points in Kains life. You can bend it and fold it and stretch so that two points meet. If you cut the end off then that part no longer exists.

punkst4r
24th Jul 2003, 21:27
Do you guys think that kain could go back in time two days to meet himself then both of them go back in time another two days and meet himself and then the three of them would go back another two days...etc.?

If they did, do you think it would mess up history baddly or if raziel did the same?

The_Hylden
25th Jul 2003, 05:47
I think they could do this, if they all eventually returned to the exact moments they left, except the original Kain from the future. The more Kains, or Raziels there are, the more room for error, which is why it would be impractical and dangerous.

Of cource, this is all based on if the timestream could even handle more then two of the same beings in the same time. Two of Raziel's souls are what is necessary to cause changes. Kain and Kain, for instance, might not be able to, but you keep adding more of the same souls and I think you further strain time.

Vampmaster
25th Jul 2003, 18:33
They don't have to return to the exact same time but say at 15:00 Kain goes back in time to 12:00 noon stays in the past for 1 hour then goes forward to 16:00 then waits an hour until 17:00 and goes back to 15:00 again. If Kain from 17:00 delayed the Kain from 15:00 from going forward to 16:00 then he won't meet an alter Kain who stayed longer, he'll just remember it as if he went later in the first place. If he waits untill after 17:00 and stops his former self from coming back at all then he is expelled to the place and time he would have been if he hadn't gone back.

The_Hylden
25th Jul 2003, 23:20
Well, I think I followed all of that:rolleyes:... I agree that what you say is correct, it just becomes way too complex to control, and the timestream's ability to handle all of those bouncing around Kains still is an issue that should be known the consequences of before he would attempt something like that. heck, it would be the most confusing game in the history of games if he were to actually do this.:p