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Riovanes
1st Jul 2003, 12:00
I'm not trying to complain here - well, not much anyway - but there's something about the designwork of Defiance that's really starting to chaff badly.

In the question/answer thread, Chris responds to the question of whether or not Kain or Raziel will use hand-to-hand tactics as well as the Reaver(s) by saying:

"Why would you want to, when you've got the Reaver?"

While it's certainly not my place to tell the people at CD how to do they're job, I just thought I'd put this forth.

As a professional martial artist (yes, I do teach on the professional level, and yes, I'm a hopeless braggart), I really enjoyed the fact that Raziel and Kain both had beefed-up hand to hand systems in SR2 and BO2, respectively. In fact, the lifting sidekick that Raziel uses in SR2 is a technique that I myself teach in classes, so it was good to see something familiar in there - it made me feel more in touch with the character, let me get closer to the story.

I may be in the minority here, but I almost never used the Reaver in either SR game. In SR1, I would deliberately take damage so it would shut off, and in SR2, I kept it turned off unless I desperately needed it - I just prefer hand to hand combat over swordplay. Not that I won't buy or love Defiance because of this, but in all open honesty, I'd answer Chris's question, "Why would you want to, when you have the Reaver," by saying, "It gives more depth, dimension, and a greater degree of playability for me personally to the game. While it may not be the same for all fans, I will sorely miss the ability to whip out some claw-style butt whoopin', and will feel severely limited by only being allowed to use the Reaver."

Anyone else agree with me?

BAH!!!

SIGIL
1st Jul 2003, 14:15
I agree whole heartedly Rio. I know I am most likely in the minority in this but I actually liked how the reaver turned on Raziel in the SR2 game. It added alot of character to the weapon, and to Raziel as well, while also adding to the gameplay.


I would have REALLY rather had this old mechanic than the new, REAVER only combat model.

Blade2642
1st Jul 2003, 14:49
I would be perfectly happy only using the Soul Reaver. Even though I do martial art myself and liked that you could go hand to hand with enemies (I played through entire SR2 and BO2 without using any weapons, exept when you couldent avoid it) it's fine by me seeing as how we will be able to do so many different moves with only one weapon.
But I hope that they can let us have atleast some puches and/or kicks in the combos.

Apocrypha Roxy
1st Jul 2003, 16:51
I thought the hand-to-hand combat was great. More, up close and personal, you could say. Impaling foes on a pointy thing is fun, and all, but sometimes you need to get your hands dirty - and that's enjoyable.

My brother was a martial artist for 20 years, after being in the Marines. Now THAT'S discipline.

Kind of dissappointing using only the blades (because I liked some of Kain's moves in BO2 - you mean we can't do the 'punch out the heart through the spine' move? Darn!), when there's so much potential for both characters to go toe-to-toe with baddies.

Ah, well.

blincoln
1st Jul 2003, 17:46
I vastly prefer having a single weapon with a whole bunch of cool moves to multiple weapons with a shallow set for each. I also think it's much more realistic to be fighting supernatural enemies with supernatural weapons, as opposed to unarmed.

Defiance is going to be different than past games in the series, and I like that. If I wanted gameplay like in one of the others, I'd play that one instead.

Uggabugg
1st Jul 2003, 17:57
hm....i dont know about this...even thougth you could change weapons in the previous games it really didnt matter as the moves for al of them were the same(mostly anyway) so id rather have cool figthing mecanics over a bunch of weapons with one moveset, tougth some wareity would be nice :) killing with your bare hands is kinda cool :D

Zephonim
1st Jul 2003, 18:33
i voted no not because i dont want the reavers but because i will miss ripping out hearts,berserking bare hand etc,but it stands to reason as why CD wouldnt let them change weapons because Kain would never leave the Reaver for a manky broadsword and so they thought it would be unfare to let Raz have a choice of weapons ,hmmm

does this mean you wont have to call the WB it will just manifest itself when you attack ?????hmmm my mind is realing now

KainSpawn
1st Jul 2003, 18:39
I voted for the reavers because of how important they are story wise and the sheer power of them. I mean why use the pistol when you have a rocket launcher. Especially against enemies that are as powerful as the unrevealed ones.

Vampmaster
1st Jul 2003, 18:58
From what I've heard, it sounds like the Reaver is going to be a lot weaker this time unless you keep feeding it. The main thing I'm worried about is whether there's a fair trade off. I consider weapons for moves a fair trade, but if they take out the elemental Reavers it won't be as they seemed to have have some inportance in regards to the plot. If Raz doesn't have them then it's as if he never learned about all that stuff from the murals and the forges and it removes the mystery of why the symbols are under the pillars.

If Kain and Raz can still use the reavers to impale and behead and stuff then it's not to bad. In SR2 I missed being able to throw a spear and have it impale instead of just bouncing off, but I'm glad they're bringing back the thing where you can roast vampires launching them into shafts of sunlight or fire or or sharp objects.

I think they should bring back the SR1 finishing move. Maybe the finishing move should depent on how much health the Reaver has. Eg. decapitate when it's really low, impale when it's in the middle and SR1 spark 'n' crackle when it's high. I think they should have a couple of kicks and bare claw things as well.

L_Master562
1st Jul 2003, 21:40
......hands to kill. For Kain, I only want him to use the Reaver, sheathing it only to use his claws while with the wraith blade, I would like to be able to use other weapons for the fun of variety.

Omega
1st Jul 2003, 23:09
I'm not particularly that bothered. I mean, as someone said (or, unless this is me making it up) CD are making the Reaver more plot-oriented, meaning it's going to feature quiet alot.

Basically, my point is that even if we only do have the Reaver as a weapon, it's not going to simply be a matter of 'no, you can't use hand-to-hand'... it's going to be explained and in a way that suits the storyline.

kain to raziel
1st Jul 2003, 23:41
I like the fact that the reaver is the only weapon for both characters if they make it so it supposedly will have all these new enhancements . Although I will miss not being able to at least use Kain and Raz's claws and kick they should at least have left that in to go along with the telekineses. But I am happy to see the other variety of weapons go to the wayside because like CD says why would you want those if you could have the reavers.

warpsavant
2nd Jul 2003, 00:20
Why punch someone in the face when you can pick em up and toss em around with a thought?

I'm not sure about this Reaver only thing. I'm going to wait and play the game first, see how the fighting is before I say I wish we could still side kick people, fight with other wpns, etc.

Personally, I don't even see why you'd fight with the Reaver when you just wave your hands and people fly around the screen.

Riovanes
2nd Jul 2003, 08:54
No disrespect taken, DJ.

You want to learn Bo, stop on by sometime! It's one of three weapons I'm certified to teach - currently working on my fourth, the kama (short-handled scythe).

As for the weapon you were having trouble naming, the correct term is nunchaku (pronounced noo-cha-koo). Oh, and just to be an ass (you know I can't resist these things), it's katana, not kitana. It is most often paired with the wakizashi, and the pair are referred to as the daisho (my second set of weapons I teach - pride in performance and all that crap).

Finally - yes, standard terminology for a sidekick is just a sidekick. But as there are different forms of every attack (snap, thrust, circular, etc.), so there are minute level descriptions for them - and a lifting sidekick is just that. A straight sidekick is used to stop an attacker short - basically to push him back if it's a thrust, or to break something soft if it's a snap - a lift has a different effect, employs different muscles, and is basically a different technique with similar origins. It's all details, but in the end, details are what make things special, yes?

Oh, and before I forget - I'm not saying I dislike the Reavers being part of the game - I'm just put out by the lack of variety that I feel the game will suffer because of it. I don't assume anyone else shares my opinion - that's why I started the poll, to see if I was alone in feeling this way.

BAH!!!

Riovanes
2nd Jul 2003, 12:28
Between the Bo and quarterstaff, you're looking at a major difference in weight. A Bo is made to be only a few inches shorter or taller (depending on your preference) than its owner - a good Bo is almost always tailor made - and they're not terribly expensive to get that way, if you're not going to get any detail work. For instance, my Bo is six feet in length, and weighs about six pounds - I'm 6'4", so the fit is basically perfect - and it only ran me $20 to have it cut and lacquered.

Saying "quarterstaff" is actually a terribly wide and varied term. The quarterstaff belongs to a family of staves and polearms that never really had a defining characteristic (such as the Bo's tailored height). In general it's safe to say that the quarterstaff is a shorter weapon than the Bo - usually four to five feet in length, and will be substantially lighter - along the order of three pounds or so. Doesn't sound like much, but once you've hefted a three pound staff and a six pound staff, swung them, and struck something with them, you'll feel the difference.

If you're worried about speed at all (though you've said apparently that isn't your strong point), but still want to maintain a measure of strength, then go for a weighted Jo. A Jo is the oriental extension of the quarterstaff - never more than four feet in length. When you get it weighted, small bars of lead, molded wax, or stone will be placed into the ends of the weapon, making it light at the middle, fast-swinging, and, not incidentally, highly damaging at the ends.

Basically, if you're going to do staff work, I'd recommend trying several different kinds first - pick on that matches your body type and movement style, instead of going for the one that looks the coolest. I've seen more than my fair share of competitors be made absolute fools of at tournaments because they were trying to be flashy with a weapon that didn't at all suit them - and some have even managed to injure themselves. I'm sure you'll do no such thing - but as with most things in life, staff work should definitely be tried before it's committed to.

As for your question about the daisho - no, the swords cannot be combined - they are separate weapons. The katana usually has a 3-4 foot blade, depending on the smith, although three is much more common (and really, more appropriate) than four. It is worn on the left hip (as Japanese tradition states that all Samurai must be right-handed - I kid you not, check the history books against this one if you like. It's really messed with me, because I'm a natural lefty - but in the end, it actually helped me train ambidexterity into my hands), and is always scabbarded with the blade turned up - this is so the lethal edge is out as soon as the blade is drawn. The wakizashi is more like an elongated dagger than a sword, really - 1.5 - 2 feet in length, traditionally. It is worn below the katana, or can also be worn at the back, just above the buttocks, or at the waist just below the navel, depending on the situation. Traditionally, this was not a combat weapon - any movie you see where a Samurai is using two swords is following a school of swordsmanship founded by Musashi, known as Ni-to Ryu (ni = 2, to = sword/blade, ryu = school or way). This school was extremely informal, as Musashi was a Ronin, and so was looked on as dishonorable. By tradition, the wakizashi was only used to commit seppuku (alternately spelled seppuka, or in the vulgar, known as hari-kiri). Basically, it was the blade you killed yourself with, if you should be dishonored. I'll do the forum a favor and NOT describe the process.

Finally - your theory. Haven't read it yet, but I will tonight, after work.

I realize all of that was probably more than you were looking for - but this is the depth of my interest and commitment to the martial arts coming out - and is why I am so sorely disappointed that I'm going to be limited to a sword in this game. I'm sure they'll make it decent - but it just smacks of Dante-copying way too much for me.

BAH!!!

Blade2642
2nd Jul 2003, 15:12
Damn I've always wanted to learn to fight with swords, but it's freaking impossible to find a place that teaches anything where I live.
But anyway, Rio since you know so much about this. What kind of sword martial art would you recomend??

(I know how you hate bad english, but keep in mind that I don't have english as my language ;) )

Riovanes
2nd Jul 2003, 15:50
Blade -

I think the thing you will find is that your choices in terms of actual schools of swordsmanship will be severely limited when compared with empty-handed schools. There just aren't all that many schools of thought concerning the sword - however, I do have a recommendation or two.

If you want something that is rooted in tradition, will give you a lot of history along with your physical training, will build muscle (lean mass, not bulk) if you train right, and has some excellent sparring opportunities, go to a Kendo school. Kendo is basically the Japanese equivalent of a school of fencing - only Kendo is much more aggressive in nature, much pickier about targeting (wrist, head, and sometimes the upper arms, depending on rules), and has much cooler body armor. Things to keep in mind when you're considering Kendo, though: The armor is terribly expensive. In the US, a good set of Kendo armor will run you 800 bucks for the chest and back armor, forearm guards, shoulder plates, helmet, and armored skirt (no, it's not like a girl's skirt - think of it as a drop of heavy, armored cloth that covers below the groin). The Kendo swords aren't as bad - they're made of stripped bamboo - and a decent one shouldn't be more than $40. I'm not sure what prices will be in your area, so check around.

As for a traditional art that is more practical in Kendo (if you purchase a concealed weapons license, as I intend to, anyway), and actually allows you to work with live blades is the school of Iai-to. Don't ask for an exact translation on that - my Japanese isn't all that great, and I've never asked at the school - I just work there. *laughs*

Anyhow, Iai-to is, as I said, a live-blade art that focuses on killing rather than sport. This is because it was the main school used by the Samurai of Japan for hundreds of years - it had to be effective in battle. It's all very short, sharp movements, but at the same time, there is a fluidity to the entire thing (once you put a sequence together, anyway) that makes it beautiful to watch, and it feels very liquid when you do it - there's just something amazing about it, and I can't quite describe it properly in words, which is rare for me. Anyhow, the art is, as I said, mostly very short movements - combinations tend to be at the most three cuts long - but that's because the first strike usually splits your skull - the rest is just adding insult to the injury, really. You will be able to work with both the Katana and the Wakizashi in this art, learning the proper uses of both (barring seppuku, because no one wants to teach you to kill yourself, obviously).

Things to keep in mind: Unlike Kendo, there is no armor to purchase for this art. Some schools, like mine, run a Kendo program as part of their Iai-to regimen, so you may still need to make a purchase. The real cost problem here comes in with the blades - if you're buying a live (in other words, sharp) blade katana, you can expect to pay in excess of $1000 for a good one. A wakizashi isn't much better, running $400-$600 on the average. Realize that you CAN get swords of this type for much less ($100-$200 for the katana, $50-$100 for the wakizashi) through other dealers - such as wholesalers and blade enthusiast catalogs - but these are crap. They are absolute trash, usually made of light alloys as opposed to beaten and folded steel, and will crack, chip, dent and bend at the drop of a hat - that, and the metal of the blade tarnishes very quickly. So if you see a cheap sword in a catalog or on display in a mall somewhere, pass it by - anyone trying to tell you it's a good blade from an ancient family is so full of crap that you should be able to smell them from miles away. I'm not saying you have to purchase an authentically-smithed sword (I got lucky and was presented with an authentic katana as part of my training - no, it wasn't like in the movies, I just happen to be really good friends with my director, and he gives each of his instructors a gift when he promotes them to the teaching level), but just be aware that there is trash out there, as with anything else.

Another possibility with Iai-to is to buy a wooden replica of a katana called a Bokken (pronounced bo-ken). Don't be fooled by the fact that it's a wooden sword - I own one of these for outdoor practice when I'm not teaching or at a demo, and I can tell you from experience that these are highly effective weapons - they're weighted toward the end of the blade with a very thick portion of wood that makes the downswing catastrophically damaging when performed correctly, and the edgework on a good Bokken makes it almost as sharp as a live-blade when swung properly. Good Bokkens only run about $10-20, so it's an easy way to get started.

Finally, the uniform. In Iai-to, you are presented with parts of the uniform as you progress - they mark your skill. If you go to a school that tries to sell you the full uniform at the outset of the program, then they may still be a good school - they just aren't following tradition.

The uniform is as follows:

Your first presentation will be the hakama, or split-skirt of the samurai. Basically they look like a big pair of collates (think parachute pants gone nuts here), and they hang down just above the bottoms of your toes to give you the illusion of floating when you move - it's actually quite fun to watch, and they move absolutely silently (I've had a lot of fun sneaking up on friends and scaring the crap out of them whilst wearing my hakama).

The second presentation will be the keiko gi, which is the traditional blue jacket of the Japanese swordsman. This is the final piece of the uniform, but it doesn't indicate mastery - just that you're getting there.

A hakama should run $60, most of the time, but can be up to $100, depending on who you go to. The keiko gi will be around $40-60.

Those are the two major legitimate sword styles that I personally am aware of. Where are you from again, somewhere in South America? If that's the case, check out an Escrima school - Escrima is fast, highly effective, and the weapons (1-2 foot long weighted sticks) are street legal - so it's actually a better choice in terms of practicality. If that's not where you're from, I apologize - but let me know and I'll see what I can dig up in your area.

BAH!!!

Blade2642
2nd Jul 2003, 16:01
I live in Norway :D More acuratley in the capital Oslo. So I doubt you'l be able to find out much ;) But thanks anyway. If you take yourself the trouble and find something then PM me since I'l be on vacation now.
And thanks for all the info. and that you actualy arsed yourself to write that much :D

Vampmaster
2nd Jul 2003, 18:31
Martial arts are cool, but I don't really think Raz or Kain would use them given the setting. I might be getting confused here; Are martial arts just any form of hand to hand and melee weapon combat or is it more specific stuff like karate, kung fu and oriental styles of fighting? I think Kain and Raz would just mostly use the techniques of the willendorf knights and the sarafan whom I imagine would be most used to medival swords and spears. So I think they'd just use that and incorporate their vampiric abilities with those skills.

Apocrypha Roxy
2nd Jul 2003, 19:34
I know what seppuku/hari-kiri is...

they disem-cereal-bowel themselves. :p

(I'm so morbid...)


Rio, you are slowly convincing me to take up martial artistry... hey, maybe they'll have it in college...

Dark God Francisco
2nd Jul 2003, 20:23
I don't mind as long as you have many combos and techniques with your one weapon it won't be such a big loss to lose the myriad weapons.

Kazael
2nd Jul 2003, 20:42
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
hey, maybe they'll have it in college...

Maybe. My campus has sensei's who teach Akido and Kung Fu (not sure which styles, though). According to one of the fliers I read, the Kung Fu master recieved his training from the Shao Lin monks. I was under the impression that they didn't teach anyone who was not a part of their order, so I'm not sure about that claim.

Unfortunately, their schedules are terribly inconvenient for me and I've never been able to attend a class.

Riovanes
2nd Jul 2003, 21:49
Originally posted by Kazael
Maybe. My campus has sensei's who teach Akido and Kung Fu (not sure which styles, though). According to one of the fliers I read, the Kung Fu master recieved his training from the Shao Lin monks. I was under the impression that they didn't teach anyone who was not a part of their order, so I'm not sure about that claim.

Unfortunately, their schedules are terribly inconvenient for me and I've never been able to attend a class.

Two important questions about this man who "trained" with the monks.

First: How long was he with them? If it's anything less than twenty years, he's full of crap. It takes five years as an initiate scrubbing floors and doing housework to be accepted to the order. After that, it's fifteen years of training to attain a rank suitable for teaching in the Shaolin school.

Second: Does he actually teach the courses? If he does - guess what? He's full of crap, again. Shaolin monks, unless on pilgrimage, don't make a habit of leaving their temples - it's sort of a lifetime commitment in that order, much the way many friars will take a vow of silence. So, basically, his claim is entirely bogus. I'd lay it more to the fact that he trained at a Shaolin school (because the art didn't actually start with the monks, it started with a man from mainland China who was trying to get them into shape with a simple aerobic workout that evolved into a self-defense form - so therefore it's entirely possible to have schools outside of the monastery) in some city somewhere, and then decided to add that claim to his school in order to attract more business. Nine times out of ten, when a martial artist claims something ancient, you can bet good money he's lying, and come up a winner. Most instructors these days train with men that trained with men that MAY have trained at one of the older schools - but most never get to those places - it's just not practical.

In the same vein, if either of these men are under 40 years old and are claiming anything above 4th Degree Black Belt in either style, tell them to piss off. Every major art in the world has a quality called "time in rank" that requires you to complete a certain number of years before attaining a new degree, or "Dan" level. From first degree to second is two years. Second to third is four. Third to fourth is between five and ten years. Fourth to fifth is no less than ten years. Beyond that, the general rule of thumb is "if you're not dead yet, we'll promote you when your name comes up on the list." A popular saying at my school is, "to become a tenth degree black belt, attain fifth degree, and keep breathing."

Just be really careful of where you go - a lot of claims are bogus, and anyone calling on a well-known master as their teacher is probably only doing it for the prestige. Besides, just because an individual is a good practitioner, that doesn't make them a good teacher. Bruce Lee was an astounding martial artist - but he couldn't teach worth a flip.

And to answer the earlier question - a martial art is defined as any self-defense or offensive system that has in it some dynamic which can be considered "artistic". In other words, you kick ass, and you look good doing it. Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido - these are all arts - if you watch a good practitioner in a fight, it's more like watching a dance than anything else. Sure, it's an aggressive, violent, sometimes bloody dance - but it's done with precision, grace, and a certain amount of style.

On the other side of the coin are the martial sciences. The focus of these is less on tradition than it is on effectiveness. Boxing, Kra'av N'gra, Sambo, and Greco Roman Wrestling are all examples of martial science. They don't fool around with things that look impressive - they hit you hard, do it fast, and do it to keep you down. That doesn't make them better than the martial arts, it just gives them a different approach. I've seen boxers beat the stuffing out of high ranking martial artists because they got an effective punch off (usually at Tough Man competitions - which only a great FOOL would enter, as there's no skill required, really - it's all a bunch of testostorone driven crap...), and I've seen martial artists wailing on boxers - so it works both ways.

The thing to always keep in mind, no matter what school you choose (if you do), is this: Martial arts are a good form of training - but no amount of training will stop a lucky punch, a lucky stab, or a bullet. Some schmoe off the street could whip a sixth dan black belt into submission if he hit him in the right spot, with the right power, and did it fast enough - training can take a large degree of your probability of getting beaten away - but it can't destroy it utterly. So no matter how good you get, never think you're invincible - the first time you do, is the first time you lose.

BAH!!!

Kazael
2nd Jul 2003, 22:17
Yeah, I was pretty sure the guy's claim was bogus when I saw it. As you say, he's most likely just trying to gain some prestige.

Oh, but speaking of the Shaolin, a group of them actually came to town a while back. Around October, I think... can't recall exactly when now. They put on a re-enactment of the history of their temple, and gave a demonstration of their Kung Fu skills. I missed the show myself, but a friend of mine went and he said it was awesome. The most impressive display of martial arts skill he'd ever seen. I wish I could have been there.

Edit:
A little update: I did some searching around the school webpage, and I was unable to find any information on the guy offering to teach Kung Fu. However, the Aikido instructor is a member of the faculty and he seems to be on the level. He's 50 years old, and earned his black belt in Aikido in 1982 after 12 years of training. He's also studied Ba Qua (which I've never even heard of), Judo, JuJitsu, Tae Kwon Do, and Shotokan Karate. He teaches Aikido on campus free of charge to anyone who wants to learn.

Saitou
2nd Jul 2003, 22:41
Hmmm I cant say for sure that I will dislike the fact that you can no longer use your claws for hand to hand combat until I play defiance, as there is probably a storyline driven reason for this. However It is dissapointing, I loved the sidekick as well, and found that if I wasnt fighting a firebreathing demon that I was using my claws, of course until the very end.

Riovanes
3rd Jul 2003, 08:00
Originally posted by Kazael
Oh, but speaking of the Shaolin, a group of them actually came to town a while back. Around October, I think... can't recall exactly when now. They put on a re-enactment of the history of their temple, and gave a demonstration of their Kung Fu skills. I missed the show myself, but a friend of mine went and he said it was awesome. The most impressive display of martial arts skill he'd ever seen. I wish I could have been there.

Edit:
He's also studied Ba Qua (which I've never even heard of), Judo, JuJitsu, Tae Kwon Do, and Shotokan Karate. He teaches Aikido on campus free of charge to anyone who wants to learn.

As I said, the monks will occassionally cruise out on a pilgrimage or journey - we had one come through my little cow town a few years ago, when I was a senior in high school, so it's not unheard of. The point was that they don't teach people outside of their order on a regular basis - it's just not done.

The Aikido instructor does indeed have a pretty impressive repetoire (Shotokan is a direct offshoot of Shuri-Ryu, which is what I teach) - if you're going to study with either one of them, get that guy. An artist with one form is a lot like a dog that knows how to sit - it's got a trick, but when it's just one trick, it gets pretty boring (and predictable). I teach three different forms (karate, judo, and weapons), so naturally I'm going to be big on variation - but it works, I promise you.

Oh, and just because I'm picky - it's technically not Ba Qua, but Baghwa - regional spellings vary though, so I could just be being a dork about it.

BAH!!!

Riovanes
4th Jul 2003, 13:25
Interesting to see that the votes have pretty much levelled out... I guess I'm not so alone after all.

It occurs to me that it's probably too late in the development of Defiance at this point to change anything about the combat mechanics - but if they haven't been finished yet, I wonder if, since we know some members of the CD team do read these boards, it would be possible for them to just consider including the option of not using the Reaver all the time? Not that I won't buy the game if I am to be limited to a single weapon - I'd just feel so... limited.

BAH!!!

OugaBooga
5th Jul 2003, 03:43
Personally i'am a power freak & am not so story driven though i do like a good story.I usually want something that i see is gaining/growing/multiplying/.etc.If the reaver is the only weapon used i hope it increases with power.I wanna see that the mission i'am on gains me something i can see & use.
Thats allI prally wouldn't vote cause there's no alien crystals giving em hasgDaGEEK powers;)

Esoteric
5th Jul 2003, 07:09
I am equally happy/dissapointed with both combat scenarios - so I can't really vote on this.

In other words... I am just as happy either way, heh. *scuttles back into hiding*

fneh
5th Jul 2003, 10:09
well, to start with I was really annoyed raziel couldn't fight bare handed, but it's grown on me.

I mean, a real martial artist that has stuied weapons as deeply as hand to hand combat will know that the weapon is an extension of yourself. (and this is quite literally with raziel!:D )

HOWEVER! I disagree with chris totally when he asked why we'd want to use anything other than the reaver. I would've thought the answer obvious:

because in all the previous games it was more fun. Especially in SR2 when we were ENCOURAGED to NOT use the reaver. SR2 kinda got me used to hand to hand combat.

From the videos of defiance I'm going to have to side with the way it is though. I would only be annoyed is raziel had the reaver on outside of combat. It always looked so crap when he dragged it behind him..

I WOULD like kain to be able to lift ppl by the throat tho. Even if it's only to feed

Zephonim
5th Jul 2003, 11:08
It always looked so crap when he dragged it behind him..
no offence intended but..

are you mad!
in sr1 if i didnt have the reaver on to swish about as i travelled i wasnt happy
sr2 i just kept it on all the time (especially for those electric demons h8d them the most:mad: )
and in defiance raz looks likehe holds the reaver like in actual sword so it may not look so bad this time round!
but you never know until D.Day (maybe thats what they should call the release date hmm 01/12/03 anyone)??

Vampmaster
5th Jul 2003, 23:10
But he needed the Light Reaver to see in the dark and the Air Reaver to run through the swamp... How can he use it for those things if it's only for combat. I was hoping they'd have the Water Reaver help him swim and the Earth Reaver make him sink and stuff like that and the fire reaver to keep his physical body from shattering into ice cubes. It's a bit tricky to do that kind of stuff with the Reaver if it's not there.

dangerizer
6th Jul 2003, 04:56
I had a buddy who studied pencak silat. it's a very brutal martial art. I can honestly say I wouldn't want to mess with any of those guys. Every freaking move disables a body part or breaks a bone. nasty stuff. it's actually banned by UFC rules or so I heard.

OugaBooga
6th Jul 2003, 06:02
MAN thats gotta hurt;)

Riovanes
6th Jul 2003, 10:46
Actually, dangerizer, last I checked UFC bans no attack but eye gouges and groin strikes - no specific martial art is banned. However, I can't see an art like that being used terribly much - once bleeding becomes problematic or a bone is broken, the match ends - it provides no competition because one man could cruise the entire circuit just breaking people's legs - a fighter like that would be immensely unpopular, and would probably be the subject of a little "gang justice" before too long, just to keep him from ending people's careers.

Interestingly, it's been grapplers (or people with extensive cross-training who predominately grapple) that have been winning most of the UFC tournaments - but that just proves the saying at my school - "If all you know how to do is kick and punch, once the fight goes to the ground - and it WILL - save yourself some trouble, and kiss your ass goodbye."

BAH!!!

Griever
7th Jul 2003, 09:23
Hmm.....

Well, I don't think I mind too badly if the Reaver will be the only method of knocking heads, so to speak. After all, I love heroes with swords (read: Squall Leonhart ;) )

However, it is a tad disappointing to me to not utilize the claws. One of the things about the Legacy of Kain vampires that I always liked was that they could (and would!) get down and dirty with their talons. It seems of late that stories involving vampires make the immortal bloodsuckers too....human. Like, the only thing supernatural about them is that they can live forever if they play their cards right. Legacy of Kain played on the bestial side, as vampires, after all their charms and plots, resorted to outright claw fests. It just reinforced the fact that they are no longer human, they're in a class all their own. Especially in LOK, where they even evolve (or devolve, from a human perspective) into fantastical creatures. They can hold onto courts and customs all they want, but eventually their other side will come out.

Whoa, kind of went off there. :D

Whatever CD decides to do, I'm sure its all going to come out in the wash. And like I said before, I still consider it righteous every time the Reaver is unsheathed, in any of its forms.

And Riovanes, thanks for all the info you've been posting. I love learning about martial arts.
:::Sigh::: I wish I could find a school :(

Morte
7th Jul 2003, 16:39
Interesting turn, this debate has taken. First off, how exactly is the technical term "Baghwa"?
I assume you are referring to Ba Gua Zhang 8 palms Gung Fu style, which while admitedly does cause some confusion with the englicized versions of the name, I have never heard of it being refered to with that name. The "q" in "Qua" is pronounced as a soft "ch" in original spelling, which is also a variation of "Gua" in this context.
Perhaps you meant the phonetical pronunciation, which roughly sounds like "baghwa". It is also known as Pa Qua Zhang.
Or perhaps I am missing something here.

And I believe that fellow(Bodhidharma or Ta Mo, if I remeber correctly) was from India, not China, Riovanes.

The Shaolin monk performance you most likely mean there is the Wheel of Life, which is rather spectacular. Not so much for the combat-adapted historical play, as for the showcase of qi implementation and control(resilience to sharp spears and blades, resistance to fire, etc.), as well as various astounding physical feats.

Gung Fu is also a lot more qi oriented than most other techniques, most notably(and sadly) Karate from which many styles evolved that are currently taught in the west. Especially if we take into consideration such 'internal' styles as various Dragon Gung Fu styles and many other Taoist styles(Tai Qi Quan, the aforementioned Pa Kua, etc.). This is also the inherent problem of most current western-taught styles(such as many Karate and Tae Kwon Do variations); they focus too much on the 'external', physical aspect and often completely neglect the 'internal' aspect. The original Shaolin styles have a nice balance of both aspects, in my opinion, as do many of the derived Gung Fu styles.

Be careful with claims of "Shaolin Gung Fu", like Riovanes said. The name Shaolin is vastly misused and exploited for commercial gains today. Of course, some people would argue that since it is merely a form and techniques used in the greater frame of philosophical and religious outlook.

While I agree that having a knowledge and some understanding of various schools, or forms if you will, is beneficial, I would have to disagree with the "one trick dog" sentiment. Perhaps aesthetically knowing more styles is pleasing, but one who is a "specialist" in one style can be as effective, if not more, as the one who knows many styles superficially. To learn and understand(and I mean really learn) just one style often takes an equivalent of a lifetime, at least if the style has any depth beside the physical aspect.
Fusing more styles into one can be useful, but is also often distracting and the practitioner lacks the "determination(I don't know how else to put this)" of a single style.
Many schools have great depth under seemingly simple surface, and are far from predictable when utilized properly by someone who knows them well. It is better to be a master of one or few paths, than a jack-of-all-trades, knowing each of them shallowly.

UFC is a complete idiocy, by the way, but then again so are most of the other tournaments in martial arts. Leaving practical effectiveness aside, the base of any respectable martial art is not in combat.

Now, as to not completely hijack the thread, let me say something about the Reaver/various weapons dilemma. Generally, I think that having multiple weapons available would offer some level of diversity and widen player options. However, I would be more than willing to trade that in for the sole use of Reaver if it had a wide array of possible strikes and combinations one could use, as well as a well done combat system.