PDA

View Full Version : Unspoken Theories



Lady Kreliana
30th Jun 2003, 03:33
This was originally posted by Miss Asa at The Unofficial Legacy of Kain Message Board. I thought it was a really interesting theory, so now I'm sharing it with all of you. :D


"There is a magical operation of maximum importance; the initiation of a new aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a word, the whole planet must be bathed in blood." - The first words spoken in Blood Omen.

I assume that means there is going to be a huge bloodbath, after which Nosgoth will, for better or for worse, have some form of stability. In Soul Reaver, this "new aeon" hasn't come yet; Nosgoth is still dying. Which means whatever "word" is the catalyst for it has not yet been spoken.

Well... what word, in spite of being inextricable from Blood Omen's plot, was never spoken once in the game, save in a narration? Or, for that matter, hasn't been spoken in Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2, or even that game?

Hash'ak'gik.

My theory is this: it's something of a given that Hash'ak'gik is still around. What if, after finding Hash'ak'gik's name written somewhere, Raziel runs afoul of him and (unaware of BO's prophetic "magical operation") speaks his name to his face? Could that be the catalyst for the final battle Nosgoth's first words spoke of?


There is truth in what she says. Not once in LoK is Hash'ak'gik ever spoken. None of the characters say his name. I'm guessing there's a reason as to why he's Unspoken. :)

kain to raziel
30th Jun 2003, 04:23
I like this theory! It is weird how his name is never said by an actual character. Kinda like the Rumplestiltskin Theory or saying Beetlejuice three times:)

Matt from Spam Buddies
30th Jun 2003, 08:53
"Final battle"...

Mmm... That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :D
It could give LOK a major theatrical feeling if we were to see something like that. :)

Oh, and the theory. It's very interesting. Kind of what I was thinking, too. Kind of.

- Matthew

hippiechk
30th Jun 2003, 15:12
Hmmm, I like this theory. It's all true and it makes perfect sense.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see if it's right.

Matt from Spam Buddies
30th Jun 2003, 16:21
Said by Kain in BO-LOK
"Small things frequently have enormous consequences."


If the Soul Reaver appeared only for one minute in TLOKS-BO2, does it make the blade less important? ;)

And haven't You made that connection between Elder and Hash. Hmm? ;)

Cough-cough...

- Matthew

someguysteve
1st Jul 2003, 00:54
there might be a connection in SR2 with the squiddy borrowing the demons who i asume serve hash.

in BO1 (using evidence too form Sr1) the respective servants of each seem to have different agendas. hash wanted kain to either restore the pillars, or counted on the fact that he would refuse the sacrifice.

squiddy wanted to eliminate vampires so that only short lived creatures would populate the world so that he could feed, maybe it would make Kain refuse to sacrifice himself if he was the only vampire, but i don't think squiddy cares much about anything besides feeding though.

Lady Kreliana
1st Jul 2003, 02:08
But it still is a question of whether he is part of the Hylden, Ancients, or an unnamed third party.

See, I think that Hash is a third party. I think he's trying to manipulate both sides of the war for his own gain.

Apocrypha Roxy
1st Jul 2003, 03:01
Originally posted by DJpick
And if you watch ANY show with Tony Jay in it, he does the same voice. He isn't as gifted with voices like Micheal Bell is. And if you think about it, Tony Jay doing more than one voice in BO1 is HARDLY anything new, since they only hade 5 voices, but had like 30 characters :)

Signor Calamari was recently on the Lifetime Channel, in To Serve and Protect (a cop drama movie).

It's funny, really. We were watching it during dinner (my dad had been watching it for the past hour) and I turn and look, and there is the man himself, speaking with some sort of German accent, I belive.

"OMG I know that actor!"

My parents looked at me. Quirked their eyebrows.

"What do you mean, you know him?"

"He's one of the voice actors to my videogames!"

They looked at each other and went back to eating dinner. :p

Michael Bell also does some voices in that Matrix game. Sheesh, he's in EVERYTHING!!!

KainSpawn
1st Jul 2003, 15:01
80?

Dangit. I was wrong.

KainSpawn
1st Jul 2003, 18:22
I know for a fact it is six. Just don't ask how I know if you are easily offended.

Matt from Spam Buddies
1st Jul 2003, 20:19
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
Michael Bell also does some voices in that Matrix game. Sheesh, he's in EVERYTHING!!!

Wow! Haven't seen him yet... I'm still in the "Sewers" level. IMDB helps always. :)

Oh, and DJpick, I am not that stupid to think the Elder God and Hash'ak'gik are related because they have the same voice actor. And I even haven't said that, I haven't even THOUGHT of that, so don't You start...

Oh, so Rahab is a naughty boy, eh... ? ;)

- Matthew

someguysteve
1st Jul 2003, 21:04
hash wanted kain to either restore the pillars, or counted on the fact that he would refuse the sacrifice.
So basically, he wanted his cake AND ate it too? I don't see how BOTH would have worked for Hash.

i meant one or the other, not both. i can't see how he would gain from either though. if Kain sacrificed himself then the pillars are restored and the boundary between the dimensions strengthens, but he refused and has been ruling nosgoth for 1,000s of years and hash still didn't make a move.


I know for a fact it is six. Just don't ask how I know if you are easily offended

alright how did he get into the mansion or whatever it was that he did

Matt from Spam Buddies
2nd Jul 2003, 16:04
Awww... Mikey is only under "Additional voices". :(

That aint going to help much... oh well... gotta keep my ears peeled in that case. :D

- Matthew

ZeNeR
2nd Jul 2003, 16:15
Speaking of Tony Jay, look what I found:
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0365432

Now there is one cameo role confirmed, but I think that EG 's return was quite predictable, wasn't it?

Apocrypha Roxy
2nd Jul 2003, 18:40
HE'S FROM BROOOKLYYNNNNNNN!!!!!!


Michael Bell is from BROOKLYN!! (he's also 4 years younger than my dad).

:D

You have no idea how happy this makes me.

Now if I can only find which part of Brooklyn he's from. It would be great if he were from Bensonhurst/Bath Beach... Sheepshead Bay? Canarsie?
Redhook? :confused:

(Who knows, maybe he once lived near my neighborhood. It would be cool if he's ever gone to the 18th Avenue Feast. All the fooood...)

L_Master562
3rd Jul 2003, 06:48
That's new to me. Need to look it up in the game case manual next to me. Yup, he's under voice talent second down. What he did and how many licks to the center of a tootsi pop, the world may never know..................

diuqSehT
7th Jul 2003, 22:17
I was of the opinion we DID see the new aeon initiated by the magical operation: it was the warped and wasted world of Soul Reaver. That was Hash's goal, methinks. Maximum killing in a vamp-run world, while little can grow there in the way of human development (i.e. Elder's concern about "destinies").



Originally posted by Lady Kreliana
See, I think that Hash is a third party. I think he's trying to manipulate both sides of the war for his own gain.

And he might have even started the war between the ancients. Then He or Elder fueled it through the ages the same way they confuse us (Raziel) today. If not for the tomfoolery of Elder & Hash, the two ancient races might still be flying the skies in harmony. (And may yet once more before everything comes full circle.)

KainSyndrome101
8th Jul 2003, 00:59
That would be pretty screwed up. Perhaps we'll see Ace Ventura as a new supporting character, in which we find out that the Elder God is merely the long lost pet of the Wachiti tribe, trying to find it's way home (while confusing many particular beings in the process).:p

Anyway, I still think that the demons at the end of SR2, and the ones found in Avernus Cathedral and the Lost City (BO1) - which are definitely the same demons - are of the same race as Hash. For example, the super-big-mac-sized red demons at the end of SR2 look almost exactly like Hash, as do all the other demons in that game look exactly like their counterparts in BO1. And remember, the same demons in BO1 were also able to shift to the Spectral Realm, just like in SR2!

Apocrypha Roxy
8th Jul 2003, 01:59
Now, I've played LoK:BO...

... but when did the demons shift into Spectral? :confused:

Did you get a copy I didn't?http://mindscraps.com/s/cwm/3dlil/eek13.gif

warpsavant
8th Jul 2003, 03:43
I think they mean the demons that appear in the strange areas of avernus.

Sr2 demons shift alot, and even have babies in spectral plane. :p

KainSyndrome101
8th Jul 2003, 04:16
In Avernus (in the level between heaven and hell), when you step on the portals and then when the scenery turns blue - I'm almost positive that's Spectral. And doesn't it say that the "middle" part of Avernus exists on two planes?

Plus, what about the Wraith Armor? It proves that the Spectral Realm is in the game, for Kain states that "The metal exists only partially in the human realm, causing it to fade between tangible and ethereal states." Another word for "ethereal" in the LoK universe would be spectral, for Raziel sometimes uses "ethereal realm" instead of "Spectral Realm" in SR2.

The reason why Kain is kinda transparent in the game when he wears the Wraith Armor is because half of the armor is in the Material Realm, and the other half is in the Spectral Realm.

KainSyndrome101
8th Jul 2003, 05:46
I mean I highly doubt a spectral armor would protect your from physical wounds.

The reason why the Wraith Armor would halve the damage done physically is because Kain is also attached to the armor in the Spectral Realm, while his other half is attached to the Material Realm, which means only half of what damage would usually be done in the Material Realm is done to Kain.


I assumed it was just a different Dimension, since Azimuth was the Planar, Guardian of Dimensions.

I don't ever recall reading that Azimuth actually created Avernus. I think it was all already built, long before Azimuth came in. All she did was invade the place and make it her home.

KainSyndrome101
9th Jul 2003, 00:20
The demons did come from one of her found dimensions, I'm sure. But what kind of connection does Avernus have with those particular demons? - is what I want to know.

I think Hash wanted the circle guardians corrupt because he somehow knew, or was compelled to know by "fate," that Azimuth would let his kind escape from their imprisonment. But how did Hash get out, or where did he come from? And when Hash died, perhaps the "agents of fate" then controlled them and sent them through time to find Raziel in SR2. It would be kinda like the neverending cycle that Raziel and Kain go through. But now that Kain has saved Raziel, anything could happen.

It kinda seems like that theory has a lot of holes in it, but I can't really think of anything else at the moment.:confused:

someguysteve
9th Jul 2003, 01:19
But what kind of connection does Avernus have with those particular demons? - is what I want to know.

it was just Azimuth's cathedral, but it did have a city around it from which she could get lots of blood for the runes to bring more demons.


I think Hash wanted the circle guardians corrupt because he somehow knew, or was compelled to know by "fate," that Azimuth would let his kind escape from their imprisonment. But how did Hash get out, or where did he come from? And when Hash died, perhaps the "agents of fate" then controlled them and sent them through time to find Raziel in SR2. It would be kinda like the neverending cycle that Raziel and Kain go through. But now that Kain has saved Raziel, anything could happen.


i don't know how he got to where he was, maybe he's like the squid just hidding out somewhere. He wants the pillars corrupt, but i'd bet his goals were more farsighted than just allowing some demons to escape, and i don't think that he died at that fight with Kain.

(Random Thought)
i wonder why Hash wanted the pillar guardians dead. they abused their powers while insane, but is it possible that they while unable to fix the pillars slowed their decay? or (i know the pillars can affect the land, but does it work the other way around). if that was so then Kain could have been killed and resurrected as a vampire so that the pillars could never find new guardians (or at least until the pillars were beyond fixing) then the killing of the other guardians could then speed up the corruption of the pillars.

KainSyndrome101
9th Jul 2003, 04:06
it was just Azimuth's cathedral, but it did have a city around it from which she could get lots of blood for the runes to bring more demons.

Yeah but, Hash was worshipped there, which means he was there before Azimuth, and he's definitely a part of those demons because he looked pretty much exactly like the spiky red demons at the end of SR2, which were the same ones in Avernus and outside of it. But Hash wasn't there when Kain was because he was inside Mortanius.

(Random Thought)
I wonder what happened to Avernus when Kain built his empire, cause we don't see it in SR1. Or maybe it was there but we just didn't get a look at it.

L_Master562
9th Jul 2003, 06:56
.....the Spiky Black demons at the end of Soul Reaver 2 moreso than the Red ones, yet that was because Hash was a black red demon and the Black ones in Sr2 were Red ones but recolored and such. So you were in a way right.

Lucent
9th Jul 2003, 07:27
I believe Avernus is the Silenced Cathedral.

Also, about the demons possessing individuals-- In defiance, I have seen a chained prisoner in a dungeon become "possessed" into a large spikey demon form just as Mortanious was in BO. It's quite shocking to witness for the first time too, and allI wanted was a light snack ^_~


Interesting enough, it would appear that the demon only possessed the body after I had fed from it. Which strikes me, since the demon possesed Mortanious as well. The coincidential similarity-- Both are dead.

Perhaps the demons can only possess the bodies of the dead? Which leaves vampires terribly vulnerable to possession O.O


Lastly, the book in Avernus that mentions the name ash'ak'gik says "bring me your first born, and sacrifice them on th altar of the world as to feed me."

The Pillars of Nosgoth strike me as the Altar of the World indeed. And the only thing that could be fed lies right beneath it, twisting its horrid tentacles around everything.

Elder God, you life sucking bastard ^_^

Just some thoughts

KainSyndrome101
9th Jul 2003, 07:46
L_Master562, those were the demons I meant. I just thought the big spikey black demons were a variation of the regular red demons, so I just called them that.:)

Lucent, that's some cool new info. I'm sure we'll learn a lot more about Hash in Defiance. And about Avernus being the Silenced Cathedral: That idea never came to light in my head, but it's a definite possibility.

ZeNeR
9th Jul 2003, 15:42
Originally posted by Lucent
I believe Avernus is the Silenced Cathedral.

Also, about the demons possessing individuals-- In defiance, I have seen a chained prisoner in a dungeon become "possessed" into a large spikey demon form just as Mortanious was in BO. It's quite shocking to witness for the first time too, and allI wanted was a light snack ^_~


Interesting enough, it would appear that the demon only possessed the body after I had fed from it. Which strikes me, since the demon possesed Mortanious as well. The coincidential similarity-- Both are dead.

Perhaps the demons can only possess the bodies of the dead? Which leaves vampires terribly vulnerable to possession O.O


Interesting that I haven't ever seen this posessing taking a place. And that possessing thing is the thing that Raziel will be doing in the Defiance. This can't be just a coincidence!
*Gasp*

Matt from Spam Buddies
9th Jul 2003, 16:10
-the whole LOK forums listen to Lucent-

-MEGA-GASP- :eek:

- Matthew

Apocrypha Roxy
9th Jul 2003, 17:37
I wanted a soft-baked cookie, and I got the whole damn West End bakery! :D

Wow. That really cleared stuff up for me. And gave all of us enlightening clues - Lucent, your theory makes great sense. Avernus could very well be The Silenced Cathedral. We'll need to find the maps of BO1 and SR1 to compare, but it would be more than coincidence that they land in the same spot.

And the sacrifice thing - DEAD ON. Origin of all Life - devourer of Death. It makes perfect sense.


And, thanks to you, I am looking forward to possessing things... It would kind of be funny if Raz got possessed while possessing someone. :p

Man, this game is gonna rock the HOUSE...http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/musik/music-smiley-005.gif

ZeNeR
9th Jul 2003, 18:12
I totally forgot to mention about the Silenced Cathedral and Avernus connection. Yeah, I think too that those are the very same places. But I made that connection a while ago, when I played BO1 the first time (which was after I had completed the SR1).

KainSyndrome101
9th Jul 2003, 18:54
When we visit the Silenced Cathedral in SR1, we don't really see much of Heaven or Hell, or any magic for that matter. But since it's been such a long time since Kain went there, maybe the Cathedral was "silenced" somehow. Perhaps Kain's slaughter of Azimuth or his taking of the Soul Reaver had something to do with it?

And another thing - do we really know how the Soul Reaver got into Avernus in the first place? I think it's been explained before but I kinda forgot. Didn't Moebius put it there or something, or is that just speculation?

someguysteve
11th Jul 2003, 21:22
Ok, someone please xplain to me how the Silenced Cathedral and Avernus are connected? Personally I don't see it.

i think the connection is how close they are to the pillars and the lake of the dead which becomes the (i forgot the name) SR1 water falls. the lack of Avernus in SR1 means that the cathedral was built out of Avernus or it was just added onto. also below the cathedral there was supposed to be a priestess who may have had some connection to hash.

as for "bring me your first born" that refers to first born children to be slaughtered at (Lucent made a good point with the pillars) the pillars.

Random Thought
i thought of hash being a leader of demons, but could squiddy have made him a false god (Squiddy was able to bring demons to attack Raziel) so the people would release lots of souls for him to devour (the pillars being nice and close). then, should he need to interact with people there would be no connection to him as a horrible devourer of souls.

Lucent
11th Jul 2003, 21:44
Lastly, the book in Avernus that mentions the name ash'ak'gik says "bring me your first born, and sacrifice them on th altar of the world as to feed me."


MY GOD! I didn't even realize my own words! Sacrifice your first born O.o...


"I am Raziel, first born of Kain's lieutenants..."

O.O

My god, I shocked myself :eek:

Apocrypha Roxy
12th Jul 2003, 01:24
That statement is very profound...

Very, very profound...

It can be interpreted and picked apart into very different things...

Also consider that Raziel is Squiddy's newly fledged, 'firstborn' reaper of souls. And he's been snacking on Squiddy's food supply.

Oh, God... he's fish food... :(

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 01:28
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
Oh, God... he's fish food... :(

Cool! I'm game. :D

If it proves true anyway...I'm still going with the sword idea, but I figure Squiddy's going to be a little upset with the Jawless Wonder in any case. ;)

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 01:53
Why do I appear to be the only one that remembers that The Silenced Cathedral is located in the mountains? And that the reason it was silenced was because the massive pipe organs would wipe out vampire-kind?

The Priestess did serve Kain and not Hash and you were to fight her under the Human Citadel. If anything, Avernus (well, what was left of it anyway) became that during Kain's empire, but I'd have to look at a map and ponder over it a bit more before I commit to it. Besides, any reference to Hash was most likely removed if the alter-area was kept.

EDIT: Added a bit of clarification.

KainSyndrome101
12th Jul 2003, 02:21
Oh... yeah. I feel like a complete idiot.

(Makes himself play SR1 all the way through)

Umah Bloodomen
12th Jul 2003, 02:23
No worries, Kain Syndrome. It's all good. ;)

The_Hylden
12th Jul 2003, 02:56
I was going to add from the http://www.siliconknights.com/heritage/faq/faqtoc.htm Website:

Azimuth is an explorer of alien realms. Her magic opens portals and doorways to other dimensions, allowing the creatures within to escape... After the insanity struck, her magic was left intact, but her mind was blasted into obscurity. She is now a raving lunatic that revels in the pain and misfortune of others. The magic she indiscriminately conjures has left numerous cities at the mercy of inhuman demons and creatures that delight in spreading pain. In many ways, Azimuth is an analogy to Nero, who played a fiddle while Rome burned... She revels in the destruction she has wrought with sadistic glee, a trait that was present even before she was driven insane by Nupraptor's magic.

After the insanity struck, her magic was left intact, but her mind was blasted into obscurity. She is now a raving lunatic that revels in the pain and misfortune of others. The magic she indiscriminately conjures has left the city of Avernus at the mercy of inhuman demons and creatures that delight in spreading pain.

The cathedral exists in two planes of existence. Kain must travel back and forth between these planes to navigate to the altar. Once at the altar, Kain must rise to heaven to obtain the Soul Reaver and then descend to Hell to obtain the Wraith Armour.

I don't know, in case you find it interesting.:)

KainSyndrome101
12th Jul 2003, 05:58
I believe those two "existences" are the Material and Spectral Realms. Remember, the two realms aren't dimensions, they're just life and afterlife. Well that's what I think.

KainSyndrome101
12th Jul 2003, 18:15
Uh uh. I never said that. I said they came from one of Azimuth's found dimensions, and they can shift between Spectral and Material somehow.

Zephonim
12th Jul 2003, 19:54
and they can shift between Spectral and Material somehow
I think they are in league with moby and the Elder God thats why they can shift between realms IMO:)

KainSyndrome101
13th Jul 2003, 00:03
In the blue rooms, the demons looked transparent to me, which is another reason why I think it's Spectral.

KainSyndrome101
13th Jul 2003, 04:59
Weird. I just checked on it in my game and they're definitely transparent. Your talking about when you step on the portals that lead to the blue rooms (spectral, IMO) right? Where you push the buttons to open doors in the Cathedral.

Edit: Wait, are you agreeing with me or not?:) BTW, they shouldn't go to ghost form in the "material" world. All they're doing is shifting, not dying and coming back.

KainSyndrome101
13th Jul 2003, 08:22
They only take your health because they aren't ghosts. They're just shifting between realms. Does Raziel take magic instead of health from his enemies? No, because he isn't a ghost, per se. He's a ghost who's inhabited his own corpse, and has the ability to shift realms because of the Elder God. How can the demons shift realms, then? Well, that I don't know.

The reason why the demons took a transparent form in Avernus's blue rooms (or the Spectral Realm, as I call them now) is beyond me. It might've been the BO1 team's way of showing you that you were somewhere else for sure.

KainSyndrome101
13th Jul 2003, 20:24
Oh yeah, dude! You're freakin right. They were transparent only after I killed them. But now it makes even more sense. For example: you enter the "Spectral Realm" as Kain in Avernus. A red demon shifts in from another part of the cathedral and it confronts you. It's solid, and it takes your health because it's still alive. But you kill it, press the buttons on the wall, and teleport out. Then you come back after to press a few more buttons. The demon returns, but it's transparent, indicating that it's the demons soul/spirit. It takes your magic instead of health.

In a SR2 sense, the soul that pops out when you kill the demons as Raziel in Spectral is like the same thing as the demons in BO1 becoming transparent after you kill them as Kain. It's just that in SR2, because of different gameplay than BO1, the souls of vanquished enemies can't attack you.

KainSyndrome101
14th Jul 2003, 07:07
That's a pretty good theory. It does make sense, even though it sounds kinda farfetched.

DJpick, about Kain keeping his solid form - I think the portals had something to do with it. Like they did the shifting for him or something and kept him alive. I'm not too certain on this one, but it was probably just the portals.

KainSyndrome101
14th Jul 2003, 18:37
Yeah, but THEN it begs the question how Kain could shift to the spectral, yet still keep his physical body?

Of course, Kain never shifted to Spectral himself, but like I said before, the portals obviously had something to do with it. If they could teleport him to other places in Nosgoth, then why not to the other realm? Maybe because he's "undead," he can survive in the Spectral Realm. I mean like, pretty much everything in my last two posts does make sense.:)

Zephonim
15th Jul 2003, 14:54
ermm it could simply be that there was doorways to other realitys/realms (whatever you believe) set up like normal everday doors, this was Avernus after all .

punkst4r
16th Jul 2003, 05:18
What if raziel yells out Hash....... and the war that was mentioned in BO1 happens.