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Wumpy Puppy
29th Jun 2003, 15:51
Hi. I've been reading the posts on these forums for a while (ever since I first heard that SR2 was announced I believe), but this is my first post...so hi. :) I wasn't sure wether to put this post here, or in the SR forum...all the posts I've seen about this have been in this forum, and since it seems like Raziel finding a new way to shift between planes will play a large part in Defiance, I think it would be most useful here. If I put it in the wrong place, I'm sorry. Anyway...:D

Over the last few days, I've seen atleast 4 or 5 people mention that there must be something special about Raziel because of the fact that he survived being thrown into the abyss. But, while there obviously is something special about him, I can't imagine that him "surviving" the abyss has anything to do with it...because he didn't.

When he was thrown into the water, he, like any other vampire would have, died. He woke back up in the spectral realm...along with slaughs, souls, vampire wraiths, etc. The way I see it, there was no difference between him and any random vampire wraith. When you pull the stake out of a dead vampire it comes back to life...but it's still actually no different than him...why are they more powerful than the regular vampires? Because they, like Raziel, are soul-stealing entities.

An even better example would be Dumah. You can talk to him in spectral before you pull the stake out, and both there, and in the real world, he tries to steal your soul while you fight him.

There are two big differences between the vampire wraiths and Dumah, and Raziel. Raziel can shift back and forth between realmsis one. But this still doesn't mean that he survived the abyss any more than any of the other "traitors and weaklings". This is simply because the EG granted him the power to use the portals. If he didn't have these portals to use, he'd be the same as Dumah...stuck in the spectral realm...dead. The other is that he doesn't need his physical body to be restored in order for him to come back either. But this is once again most likely some other gift that's been given to him by the EG.

In Defiance, it's been said and shown that the power to shift with the portals will be gone. From everything we've seen, I think it's safe to assume that Raz will have to figure out how to shift by possessing the body's of living things. It's too early to really comment on how this will happen, but I highly doubt that he'll wake up in spectral and say "hey, whadya know, I can possess people!" :) . I think it will have to be an ability that he will aquire at some point early on in the game, consequently right before or after, the EG takes away the portals that he's been letting Raz use.

Anyway...all I'm really trying to say is that in my opinion, there's really nothing that I've seen that shows there's something special about Raziel, in regards to him "surviving" being thrown into the abyss, and him being reborn as a soul-eater.

What do you all think?

Zephonim
29th Jun 2003, 16:50
i was just thinking that myself lol:D :D

Matt from Spam Buddies
29th Jun 2003, 17:22
Yup. That pretty much sums it up. :)

I was thinking the same.

- Matthew

Evelin The Winged
29th Jun 2003, 17:40
Good theory, but in the SR1 intor we see Raziel's body come to rest while in the material realm. THe camera then shift's to spectral, where Raziel wakes up. Could Raziel's body still be at the bottom of the abyss or something?

Wumpy Puppy
29th Jun 2003, 17:50
Originally posted by Evelin The Winged
Good theory, but in the SR1 intor we see Raziel's body come to rest while in the material realm. THe camera then shift's to spectral, where Raziel wakes up. Could Raziel's body still be at the bottom of the abyss or something?

The bodies of the vampires don't disappear unless their souls have been consumed. This is why their bodies were still there after you killed them in SR1, and why they were still on the stakes in SR2. So I assume, that since Raz's soul is still around (whether it's in spectral, the reaver, or anywhere else), his body is still laying at the bottom of the abyss.

Saitou
30th Jun 2003, 00:56
First thing, when you say that he, Raziel, didnt "survive" the abyss, well no not in the sense of not suffering tremendous amounts of pain and agony, that of which lasted a millenia. Though in fact he really did survive the abyss.

Well the first thing that sets Raziel apart from any "random" vampire wraith as you put it, is the fact that Raziel is Kain's first born son and lieutenant and therefore he isnt on the same level as those who are vampire wratihs. When you pull a stake from the dead body of a vampire wraith yes its soul comes back to reanimate it's corpse, why? Because of their immortal bodies. The wraiths are not soul devouring entities like Raziel, when they inflict physical damage on their prey, they form a mental link with that being allowing them to drain its life. Dumah is not stealing your soul, he just has the power of the other wraiths to form that mental link upon damage.

This is where you contradict yourself; the fact that Raziel can shift back between the spectral and physical realms does mean he survived the abyss and in fact way more than any other who was thrown in to the abyss before him. Although the Elder God did grant Raziel the use of the portals, that is the only ability/power in which the Elder God had granted him. If Raziel didnt receive this ability from the EG he would have found his own way into the physical realm as he will have to do in Defiance. The fact that he doesnt need his physical body is because he survived the abyss, its not a power granted by the EG.

There is something special about Raz in regards to surviving the abyss, the only reason he was thrown in the abyss in the first place is because Kain knew he would survive and come back as the soul stealing entity that he is, he simply had to it was his destiny as the "unholy" vampiric savior of nosgoth. Of course these are just my views and opinions. ;)

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 01:32
Originally posted by Saitou
The wraiths are not soul devouring entities like Raziel, when they inflict physical damage on their prey, they form a mental link with that being allowing them to drain its life. Dumah is not stealing your soul, he just has the power of the other wraiths to form that mental link upon damage.[/B]

I could be wrong (and probably am), but I could have sworn that when the Elder God introduced (I guess you could call it) the wraiths to Raz, he also said something about them consuming souls as one of the ways that they had "adapted" to the spectral realm. Since I don't remember what he said word for word, I'll just assume that you're right that Raz was the only one who consumed souls. I tried to look online to check the script from the game to make sure what I was saying was right, but I couldn't find any sites with it (nosgoth.net usually has it I believe, but it's been down all day down due to bandwidth).



Originally posted by Saitou
This is where you contradict yourself; the fact that Raziel can shift back between the spectral and physical realms does mean he survived the abyss and in fact way more than any other who was thrown in to the abyss before him. Although the Elder God did grant Raziel the use of the portals, that is the only ability/power in which the Elder God had granted him. If Raziel didnt receive this ability from the EG he would have found his own way into the physical realm as he will have to do in Defiance. The fact that he doesnt need his physical body is because he survived the abyss, its not a power granted by the EG.

I could be wrong again (obviously):), but I don't ever remember seeing/hearing anything that said the EG couldn't give any entity in the spectral realm this power. I don't see anyway that Raz could have "found his own way into the physical realm" without help from the EG. He would have only been able to run back and forth between where he awoke and where that first portal would have been. I don't think that him not needing a physical body in the material plane makes a difference. If the EG could get him halfway there (with the portals), it would only make sense (in my opinion) that he'd have the power to bring him into the physical plane regardless of if Raziel has physical body or not.

Once again, I could be wrong, but I don't see anything that shows that Raziel survived his death any more than Dumah did.:)

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 02:41
I looked online again and still couldn't find the exact words that were used, but here: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk the description of the wraiths does describe them as soul-eaters. :)

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 04:19
Ah...finally found it...


Elder God:
Beware, Raziel. These wraiths are vampire spirits, fettered too long in the spectral realm. When their vampire natures adapt to this plane, they become eaters of souls. Do not allow these spirits to reinhabit their corpses.
The wraiths are soul-consuming entities like Raziel. He doesn't say that the vampires that are brought back to life eat souls, but I think you're just supposed to assume that seeing as they drain your life the exact same way.

Saitou
30th Jun 2003, 06:35
LOL I actually went today and played the part in which you first see a wraith and the EG tells you about them, its quite different from Raz but you are right. Still though you cant deny that Raziel is indeed different from simple wraiths and even his brother Dumah. As much as I like discussing this it would be rather fruitless to continue, anything that characters my have said or suggested doesnt make them true and in any respect I believe we will be hard pressed to prove any debates we are having. So the EG may be able to provide these powers or he may not. One last thing though, I dont quite understand what your trying to say as Raz didnt die, so how can he not have survived the abyss; he simply isnt a vampire anymore but something more.

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 15:11
Originally posted by Saitou
Still though you cant deny that Raziel is indeed different from simple wraiths and even his brother Dumah. As much as I like discussing this it would be rather fruitless to continue, anything that characters my have said or suggested doesnt make them true and in any respect I believe we will be hard pressed to prove any debates we are having. So the EG may be able to provide these powers or he may not.
I agree that there obviously is something different between the Wraiths and Dumah, and Raziel. But, I don't think there necessarily would be any difference if the Elder God hadn't given him the gifts he did. I think that Raziel's soul could be more powerful, or different in some way, but I think that if he hadn't been given the ability to shift into the material realm, he would have been stuck in spectral forever, having no way to fulfill whatever his destiny is. In other words, without the EG's interference, he would have had to spend eternity playing with the slaughs:). You are right that it would be pointless to discuss what exactly the EG did, or did not give him the power to do...since there simply is no way to know for sure.


Originally posted by Saitou
One last thing though, I dont quite understand what your trying to say as Raz didnt die, so how can he not have survived the abyss; he simply isnt a vampire anymore but something more.
I just don't think that Raziel did survive the abyss...I believe that he did die. As far as I can see, if a vampire is thrown into water, and wakes up in the spectral realm, he must be dead. He was never really resurrected. In both SR's he still drew his strength from the underworld (except in SR1 when he had the reaver), and over time his health was slowly drained because it couldn't survive in the material realm without constantly eating. He is still a creature that is based in the spectral realm. It looks to me, like he's simply been given the gift to somehow enter the material realm whenever his energy is full. There's no way to know what exactly had changed after he woke up in the abyss; the Elder God could have only given him the portals like you said, or he could have given him both the portals, and the ability to survive in the material realm, there's no definite way to tell.

hippiechk
30th Jun 2003, 15:33
Well, I do think that Raziel is special in a way different from any other LOK character. He is the chosen one. He just doesn't know it yet. But I think Kain does.

And Raziel did not, in fact, survive the abyss.


from the Soul Reaver game script
Elder God: You did not survive the abyss, Raziel. I have only spared you from total dissolution.

In other words, he was transformed. The Vampire Raziel is dead.

As for the wraiths, yes, EG does say that they are eaters of souls. The funny thing is though, you never see them eat any souls. Think about it. Especially in that first meeting with them when the EG tells Raziel about them. There are several souls floating around the room, but the wraiths never even attempt to eat them.

Just my two cents worth.

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 15:50
Originally posted by hippiechk
Well, I do think that Raziel is special in a way different from any other LOK character. He is the chosen one. He just doesn't know it yet. But I think Kain does.
I agree. I just don't think that the fact that he can enter the material realm is the thing that makes him special.


Originally posted by DJpick
Actually, the Wraiths, and Wraith Vampires, don't feed on souls, they feed on the energy from a creatures wounds. Kind of like you can drink a glass of water directly, or boil a pan of water and drink the steam.
Although they don't feed on entire souls, they do, in fact, consume souls to survive. Raziel could also do this in a way in SR1. If the humans were friendly, he could get close to them and only take in part of their soul without killing them because they are weaker than the vampires and other enemies. Maybe the wraiths' soul consuming abilities are more powerful than Raziel's, and therefore did not need the soul to be free from the body in order to feed off it.

Evelin The Winged
30th Jun 2003, 15:52
But the EG was lying!...or so we've been told, at least. :( EG want's Raz to kill Kain, but Raz know's that he shouldn't. Moebius is EG's lakey, all the more reason not to trust that calamari.

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 15:58
Originally posted by Evelin The Winged
But the EG was lying!...or so we've been told, at least. :( EG want's Raz to kill Kain, but Raz know's that he shouldn't. Moebius is EG's lakey, all the more reason not to trust that calamari.
We don't know that the EG was lying though. Yes, we were told that he was lying, but that was by Raziel. You're right that we don't have any reason to trust "that calamari":D, but we also don't have any reason to think that Raziel knows what he's talking about. In my opinion, the EG gave Raz the ability to enter the material realm, because he thought Raz would kill Kain. Now, in Defiance, when the EG realizes that there's no chance Raz is going to kill him, he takes away the power he's given him. It's his/it's word against Raziel's, and we all know that Raz isn't exactly the most informed being in Nosgoth.:)

Blue Winged Fellow
30th Jun 2003, 20:22
After reading your posts, something poped in my head. Raziel looses his ability to shift planes, or better Mr Calamari removes the help because he's not "needed" anymore to set the dark entity's plan in motion.

Recall that when Raz confronts Mr Cal, and suggests that Mr Cal doesn't know how to kill him, Mr Cal says something along the lines of "there are worse fates than death". How about being stranded in the spectral realm in an area where you can't get out without phisically interacting with the environment? Like when we got all frustrated solving a puzzle?? Imagine living eternity knowing what you have to do to get out of the hole, but not being able to do it anymore? I can't imagine something much worse than that for Raz.

Once part of his soul has been encapsulated in the reaver, that's all that is needed to create the paradoxes that the demons need (William the Just and Kain, for example). Therefore, having little blue winged fellow running around in Nosgoth probably is not such a good idea, and since he is already in the spectral realm at the end of SR2, then the best way to keep him from altering things is to keep him there.

Problem is, as some has pointed out, the ability to shift planes has always been Raziel's, only he (and perharps Mr Cal) didn't know it. Mr Cal provided an "easy way" to gain matter (the portals).

Maybe now all Raziel needs is improve in his shattered will. Like when phasing through insubstancial barriers, all he needs is to "Will himself" to become manifest in the Physical Realm.

As before, it should be taxating to become manifest in the phisical world, so he can not really "shift at will". The condition that must be met eludes me though.

Once Raz learns how to become manifest, he becomes another fly in the chardonnay, next to Kain and must be eliminated. Making Defiance a more "action driven game".

I bet the first puzzle to solve in Defiance is "Getting out of the room".

Any thoughts?

Wumpy Puppy
30th Jun 2003, 20:38
I agree with everything you said except...

Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow

Problem is, as some has pointed out, the ability to shift planes has always been Raziel's, only he (and perharps Mr Cal) didn't know it. Mr Cal provided an "easy way" to gain matter (the portals).

Maybe now all Raziel needs is improve in his shattered will. Like when phasing through insubstancial barriers, all he needs is to "Will himself" to become manifest in the Physical Realm.
As I said earlier, I don't think that Raz will just suddenly realize that he has the ability to shift into the material realm...it would seem kind of silly to me:). It will probably be a power that he will somehow gain (like the phasing example you used) very early in the game.

I completely agree with everything else you said. Actually...I think simply being trapped inside the reaver for eternity would be a much worse fate than being stuck in one room.

Blue Winged Fellow
30th Jun 2003, 20:46
Originally posted by Wumpy Puppy
Actually...I think simply being trapped inside the reaver for eternity would be a much worse fate than being stuck in one room.


True, that was the intended destiny for Raziel by the EG, but the next worst thing is what I described since he doesn't really gets trapped in the reaver, that is... Or at least, not yet.

Wumpy Puppy
1st Jul 2003, 16:26
Originally posted by DJpick
Yeah, but Raziel was supposed to be outside of the EG's influence in SR2, yet we saw the portals.
No, that's not true. You're right that the EG said that in the end of SR1, but it was cut out of the intro of SR2.

Dark God Francisco
2nd Jul 2003, 18:15
I am in full agreement that Raz didn't survive the abyss. He did die since his body was probably desintegrated or most likely still at the bottom of the abyss in turn makes it impossible to recover then again who needs a destroyed body anyway.

I belive Raz is a suped up vampire wraith since he had been burning and falling in the abyss for centuries his soul had more that enough time to adapt to the spectral plane.

My proof of this is dumah his soul retained his original form instead of being one big cloaked ghost the reason being because he like Raz and Turel recieved the best portions of Kains power Raz getting biggest one it explains why they look much more "normal" than Zephon,Melchiah and Rahab.

Also Melchiah seems to have well developed spectral abilities since he can follow you into the spectral realm and attack you there.

Dark God Francisco
3rd Jul 2003, 00:46
Originally posted by DJpick
Personally, I thought the bosses "following" you intot eh Spectral realm was a game play thing, so you couldn't escape them and not get hurt. It was just a way to make sure you kept on your toes and didn't cheat to get full health in the Spectral Realm.

Nope that isn't just a gameplay element since only two select bosses can do it perfectly and one can go to the spectral realm partially but can't attack you(zephon) and one can't shift at all(Rahab)

Dark God Francisco
3rd Jul 2003, 03:39
Originally posted by DJpick
Well if Zephon can only partially go, then that means he shouldn'tbe moving or whatever, cause time stops. But the fact that on can't and one partially goes, then why don't the others do it? And besides, Kain doesn't follow, I would think if anyone could, he surely could?

Besides, seeing as how the 4 vampire lieutenants didn't quite make it past SR1, I doubt it will play any kind of importance to the story.

Melchiah was able to shift to spectral when I fought him and Dumah well that little skirmish when you shift before releasing him could indicate he has it.

Zephon spectral shift seems to be imperfect and Rahab well since he can only live in water its understandable why he doesn't have it since water is like air in the spectral realm.

As for Kain he definately has it and its proven in SR2's opening movies when he vanishes after saying "you nearly had me Raziel" before rematerializing there is small flash near the portal then Kain reappears.

Dark God Francisco
3rd Jul 2003, 15:02
The reason why Kain didn't follow you into the spectral realm is cause he pretty much was toying with you the whole time in SR1.

warpsavant
3rd Jul 2003, 17:11
If Kain can shift, then why will only Raziel shift in Defiance?

The manual says all the Lts have the ability to go to spectral, but only momentarily. This includes rahaab. This is why you see them all in spectral.

someguysteve
3rd Jul 2003, 19:06
If Kain can shift, then why will only Raziel shift in Defiance? The manual says all the Lts have the ability to go to spectral, but only momentarily. This includes rahaab. This is why you see them all in spectral.

it isn't a true shift like Raziel who leaves his physical body behind, thats why Rahab floats and doesn't fall to the ground, he is still supported by water in the material realm (i haven't seen this, but i'll bet anything he doesn't fall and crush raziel). i thinks its just their souls bleeding through for a moment

Vampmaster
3rd Jul 2003, 19:06
Maybe Kain thinks it's too risky. If he dies in material he can get back easy enough using the blood runes but he can't use the checkposts so he can die in spectral.

warpsavant
3rd Jul 2003, 19:14
Bleed through is a good way to describe it.

Blue Winged Fellow
4th Jul 2003, 11:56
Zephon could climb?? :confused: I never saw him moving from where he was!

And as for Rahab... You never get to see him in the spectral realm.

Threnodi
4th Jul 2003, 22:12
I didn't see Zephon do much climbing or moving either, but I sure saw all his little spider vamps doing it. :) And about Rahab, -can- you see ihm in spectral..? He didn't when I played, but then I never knew you could suck partial souls from the humans or talk to Dumah in spectral before removing the stakes till I came here either. Does anyone know when you can see Rahab in spectral?

Blue Winged Fellow
6th Jul 2003, 15:53
Granted DJPick, but I don't think you get to see him "crawling up the wall in the spectral realm" as you stated above (or maybe I misunderstood what you're saying)

I didn't know about the human "sacrifice" of soul, or the little Chat with Dumah either until I came here, so I went back and played the game again just for that. I've finished the game many times, and I've NEVER seen Rahab in the spectral realm, not even briefly.

Edit: Closing tags! :rolleyes:

Osyris
7th Jul 2003, 19:38
Raziel is much more than a vampire wraith. the first indications of this are in the intro of SR1. he has WINGS like nosgoths first vampires.

although all of kains "sons" were evolving. not even kain had wings and this marked raziel as one with a powerful link to his vampire Heritage.

secondly of course there is the fact that even though he is no longer a corporeal being he can with help from the EG (up until now) manifest himself by shear force of will, something a vampire wraith could never do.

ontop of that, near the end of SR2 raziel asks the EG
"i wonder old one...
Did you truely resurrect me or were you simply THERE when i awakened from my torment in the abyss?"

the elder god dodges the question which leads me to believe that raziel hit the nail on the head.

raziels resurrection was pre-ordained and not even the elder god could stop it. so he chose manipulation and eventual incarceration (within the reaver) as a substitute.

phew... lots of writing.. well THATs what i think.

Threnodi
7th Jul 2003, 21:20
I'll agree with you on one point: There's certainly something special about Raziel we don't know yet, because our little blue friend is...well....blue, and has wings. I look forward to getting that explained in Defiance. >:)

However on the other two points, we don't know if Raziel would have any better chance of manifesting himself than any other wraith if the elder god hadn't helped with the portals. From what we are hearing of defiance it sounds like he gets stranded without the EG's help, and has to find a new way.
It may turn out this new way is a way only Raziel can take, but it might be he just gets help or learns of a technique any wraith could take if they only knew of it. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

As for the last one, the elder god hedging when he accuses it of not resurecting him, this does seem to smack of squiddy getting caught in a little fib, but the fact the EG didn't bring him back doesn't mean he didn't come back like any other wraith. It just means he doesn't exist solely by the grace of the elder god. A fact I don't think the EG was too keen on Raz guessing, true, but it doesn't mean he was brought back in some special way. ;)

After all, hundreds of years passed while he was in the abyss. Raz might have just had a lot more time to acclimate to the spirit world than your garden variety wraith.

Still....what about those wings? ^_^

Osyris
7th Jul 2003, 21:41
yep the wings say it all. the rest is just speculation but i enjoy speculating:D

warpsavant
8th Jul 2003, 03:57
Does anyone know when you can see Rahab in spectral?

Yeah, go fight him. Before you kill him, just shift to spectral and jump off the pillar and look around, he'll be there, bleedin thru.

Zephonim
8th Jul 2003, 11:30
What's interesting, if you watch the intro, the outline of his wings look feathered and angelic


yeah i noticed this aswell but kain only rips out the bones of his wings and my figure of pre raz doesnt have any feathers but i think this just the first stage of raziels transgression above the rest of the brethren,maybe if he had been allowed to live longer he would have had feathers all over his wings,either that or he is some nix between hylden and ancient .

Only time will tell (i hope)

Blue Winged Fellow
8th Jul 2003, 11:51
Well, we all know that pigeons don't have feathers on their wings when they hatch. I presume, Raziel appeared before Kain just after leaving the "state of change" so it may be possible that he didn't have enough time to grow feathers.

Or it could be that he wasn't meant to have feathers in his wings, judging by the anatomy of the wings... I guess we'll never know that now, since he's no more a vampire, and I don't think he will "devolve" into one in the future.

Threnodi
9th Jul 2003, 19:05
Originally posted by DJpick
I have to disagree. The wraiths of SR1 couldn't manifest themselves into the Material Realm. All they could do was inhabit their original body, and if that disappeared, they were screwed. Plus, Raziel doesn't inhabit a "body" he wills various matter together to form a body.


My point though was, as of now we have no proof Raziel would have been any different from them. screwed without his body and unable to manifest. The elder god gave him a way to manifest by forming his own new body, but even that body is a poor substitute and looses health over time, right? Sort of a hack of a solution.

Now in defiance, it may turn out, like you say DJ, that Raz could do it all along. if that happens, then I'll definately agree that's a special thing about Raz. But it may turn out he just gets help from someone else, or is taught a method for manifesting that no wraiths know of, but could use if they did know. Maybe he absorbs the soul of the priestess in spectral, eh? Finds her there and fights her and eats her and then can posess people? Or maybe he learns how to manifest intangibly in the real world from ariel, and that's enough to make him able to inhabit any body, not just his own which would probably put out a sort of spiritual beacon to it's owner. Just possible theories there. ;) I'm really undecided on weather Raz has special shifting abilities myself, I'm just pointing out we really can't make good informed guesses yet.

And as for his wings being from the corruption of the land or from being a necro vamp, if that was the case there's no reason at all kain shouldn't have gotten them first. He too is a necro vamp, moreso than the others really, and as a guardian much more in touch with the pillars and the corruption. And besides kain, all the other brothers would have just as much chance as raz for getting wings too. So you'd basically be saying it was blind pure coincidence he got wings, which seems unlikely.

Threnodi
20th Jul 2003, 08:20
Originally posted by DJpick

Personally I don't think the EG had much to do with it like Raziel said. And EG DID seem to dodge the question.
Eh? Why then do you think Raziel (assumedly) has to posess people in defiance then? I mean if the elder god was not responsible for the amassing-mass-for-a-body portals, Raziel has no reason to change how he shifts in defiance...


I didn't mean the wings specifically, I meant the appearance of his evolution.
Ohhhhhh. You mean why they were batlike instead of feathered. That makes a lot more sense. :)

Lozza Mate
20th Jul 2003, 09:23
Raziel DIDN'T survive the abyss.

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 11:13
O.K ive mentioned this before and heres what i think,
At the end of SR1 the E.G warns Raziel "be warned ,Raziel once you pass this gate ,you are beyond my inlfuence "or sumin like that, anyway in SR1 you notice the E.G speaks to you wherever you are(sarafan tomb,cosuming your brethrens souls)through some kind of telepathic linkIMO ok? still with me? good!


Right ,now that Raziel has crossed through time the E.G never has a "psychic phone call" with Raz at all suggesting the link is severed but how do we explain the portals, well i think there is still some connection between Raz and E.G (could just be that cause Raz spent a few centuries in his lair ,i dunno) and at the end when his souls are flying about in sr2 he was meant to be trapped in the reaver and maybe squiddy had assumed this would happen and removed his "influence"somehow from the rest of the timeline.
Far fetched i know but so is time travelhttp://burns.thefinaldimension.org/contrib/dvv/asthanos.gif

Wumpy Puppy
20th Jul 2003, 16:23
I already pointed out that the Elder God's warning that Raziel would be beyond his influence if he went back in time was cut out of the game...


Originally posted by DJpick
Yeah, but Raziel was supposed to be outside of the EG's influence in SR2, yet we saw the portals.

Originally posted by Wumpy Puppy
No, that's not true. You're right that the EG said that in the end of SR1, but it was cut out of the intro of SR2.

It's obvious that they conciously left it out for a reason, and didn't just forget to put it in to the script.

Zephonim
20th Jul 2003, 19:16
But then WHY didn't he just put them back to get on Raziels good graces?
The last speech Raziel gives him must cut deep and he isnt speaking to Raz anymore and it seems to me that hes realised Raziel is out of his grasp now.(against him anyway ,Hence Defiance)

EvanK
20th Jul 2003, 19:26
<wump's original post>

thats a really good point. and probably the only reason raziel was able to hold on to his physical visage and his humanity as much as he has in the spectral realm, is because other than kain, he's the most powerful vampire in existence.

and you have a point about the portals, but come to think of it, in soul reaver 1, when you were supposed to have defeated kain (before they changed the story), you wouldve been able to switch planes at will, so raziel has probably always had the ability to posess fallen enemies, something of an inherited trait from kain, but he just never realized it cause he always had the elder god's conduits for his use.

Lozza Mate
21st Jul 2003, 06:50
Originally posted by DJpick
Eh? Why then do you think Raziel (assumedly) has to posess people in defiance then? I mean if the elder god was not responsible for the amassing-mass-for-a-body portals, Raziel has no reason to change how he shifts in defiance...
Well how do YOU explain the portals in SR2, where Raziel was supposed to be beyond EG'S reach?

firstly, learn to use the quote feature.

secondly, the portals have nothing to do with the Elder god. They are a natural occurance in the specral realm, the elder god just gives Raziel the ability to utilize them. He does not create them.

Lozza Mate
22nd Jul 2003, 08:21
the elder god in SR1 I believe.

and at any rate, (gameplay mechanics aside) if the elder god creates the planar portals, why didn't he just make one whenever/wherever raziel wants to shift? Since it would be in the elder's interest to do so it doesn't make sense for him to just randomly scatter them about the realm.

Lucent
22nd Jul 2003, 09:00
The abyss sure looks alot like the Hylden Gate from BO2...

>.>

<.<

Strange.

Saitou
22nd Jul 2003, 11:06
I also think that there is being to much read into direct character quotes from the game. It never says that Raziel is out of the elders grasp, Raziel says that "Your threats are unmoving. Even now I'm beyond your reach."; Raziel also states in an earlier meeting, "Your hold on me appears to be tenuous..." I am very sceptic on that the elder god ever really gave Raziel anything, but this perception can be interpreted many different ways. With Raziel's willful denial for the elders help there was no longer reason to make him believe he held any power over him in the first place, though I for one however disagree that the elder god ever gave Raziel anything except manipulate advice and utilization of the portals. "Well, they're certainly trying to eliminate you, Kain, there can be no doubt of that. I am assaulted relentlessly with demands for your demise." The same tiresome refrain over and over, it is obviously clear that there was only one reason for the elders "facade" as I see it, and that was to use Raziel to get Kain out of the picture of Nosgoths future or lack there of. Still though there has been very little revealed about the elder; I am sure that LOK-Defiance is to prove one of us right or wrong, one way or the other.;)



Originally posted by DJpick
is because other than kain, he's the most powerful vampire in existence.Technically he is no longer a vampire, as Amy has stated. And Turel has surpased where he was, and Vorador and Janos are up there too :)

Also how can you say Turel has passed Raziel? We havent even seen vampiric Turel since he and Dumah bore Raz into the abyss; the "Vile Bastards.":D Though certainly Janos and Vorador are highly evolved so is Raziel, though no longer soley vampiric he is infact still somewhat, anyway the point is Raziel has evolved in many ways since his trip into the abyss, and there is no way Turel has surpassed him in "power" or evolution.

diuqSehT
22nd Jul 2003, 20:53
the portals are like a natural phenomenon. Like geysers and volcanoes bursting through the earth's surface. Spectral energy just gathers in little eddies like that. Portals don't exist because Elder turned the light switch---they're just there.

and we saw Raziel pass out of Elder's influence in SR2. What's the big mystery there? Elder no longer has Raziel's loyalty, just like Elder knew would happen once the other timestreamers started messin' with him.

Lucent
22nd Jul 2003, 22:34
Y'know, it was clearly stated that in Defiance Raziel "without the aid of the Elder God, must find a new way to escape the spiritual realm".

In fact, the first portion of Raziel's section of the game is him trying to find a way out of the plane. The spirit portals and the whole "cawling out of the ground" animations are place-holders until the actual shift-from spectral stuff has been implemented. I'm quite under the belief that Raziel will find a way (probably not the same way that was cut) to possess beings in the material realm.

If the demons can do it (Hash'ak'gik to Moebius) then so can Raziel if he trie hard enough (because the demons are equally present in the spiritual realm as they are in the material, as seen in SR2). Raziel just needs to figure out how they manage to do it.

I doubt we'll be seeing the spirit vortexes in the final version of the game.

Lozza Mate
23rd Jul 2003, 07:32
Originally posted by DJpick
[B]the elder god in SR1 I believe.
Well if they are a natural occurence, then EG didn't help Raziel ever, and he had been doing it himself the whole time. In the NEWEST trailer there was a scene of the shifting to material, and there was a blue disc under Raziel while he was in spectral, until he emerged to Material. so obviously EG didn't help as much as he says.
]

the elder does not create the portals.

the only thing the elder actually did for Raziel is give him the shift glyph. Now that raz has become a 'traitor' the elder has removed it.

Zephonim
23rd Jul 2003, 11:25
Lozza mate you hit the nail on the head ,the elder god took away the shift glyph from raz ,I think this is what we can expect to see . Maybe somehow squiddy manages to rip the glyph from his soul (that would be cool)

Saitou
23rd Jul 2003, 12:07
Originally posted by DJpick
Also how can you say Turel has passed Raziel? We havent even seen vampiric Turel since he and Dumah bore Raz into the abyss; the "Vile Bastards"
Cause Raziel evolved for 1000 years, and was tossed, while Turel still had the 1000 years that Raziel was trapped :) So he surpassed raziel in his vampire form, but Raziel as a wraith may be stronger I guess. Or at this point they may be equals, since Raziel hasn't really "evolved" yet (atleast not in the way I interpreted Amy's description). I meant Turel now is a stronger Vampire, than when Raziel was when he was tossedz.

Well we dont know if Turel devolved like the rest of the brethern, having not even seen him in game yet. If he has devolved than by no means has he surpassed prefallen Raziel in vampiric form, the fact is Raziel had the biggest portion of Kains gift; growing wings is a big evolution one that Kain has not even experienced so I atleast disagree that Turel has surpassed Raziel's vampiric form. Evolution is not just physical change; gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form, Raziel has certainly done this. Strength however is a different matter and to say Turel is stronger than prefallen Raziel but possibly equal to wraith Raziel is contradictory as they are the same being. They are both Raziel just different incarnations, and one no longer exists. However we have yet to see Turel in action so I think we should wait before we assume he is equal in strength to Raziel.(wraith)


To thesquid, yes we saw Raziel no longer able to be swayed by the elder, but he was still able to form his body out of matter by the power of the shift glyph as Lozza Mate said, there never was a mystery and we werent debating that. Though I have no idea what you mean by other timestreamers, as there is only one, Moebius, who is infact the elder gods lackey; so this statement makes no sense really. Lucent, I was also under the impression that to traverse into the physical realm Raziel would now have to posses the bodies of fallen enemies or such to form his own body.

diuqSehT
25th Jul 2003, 23:17
re: timestreamers
(hint: title of game)

Some earlier comments made it sound like the "outside my influence" thing needed to be explained. The fact that it's still true even though they removed it from the opening speech last time around.


So is there going to be some kind of google search of the land for a dead body every time you need to shift? Or strategic placement of possessable bodies--for puzzle purposes? Nifty.