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Matt Buchanan
28th Jun 2003, 12:46
I loved Deus Ex but it did have somethings missing, one of the biggest of these is not being able to punch as you can in so many other 1st person shooter style games. All of my gaming friends strongly agree that there should be a "punch" function and wish there was one. This aspect would make the game much more realistic and allow to attack something in hand-to-hand combat without having to hit it with a crowbar or stab it with a knife. This function would also allow you to do cause smaller amounts of damage and allow you to travel light aswell insted of lugging a crowbar around just for hand-to-hand combat.

Please add a punch function,
Best wishes, Matt.

matt.buchanan@hotmail.com

cball05
28th Jun 2003, 16:36
Punching would be nice, but the game was fine without it - there were plenty of other choices, from the baton to the pepper spray (of death?)

Trollslayer
28th Jun 2003, 17:14
I don't think punching should be included.

First, fist damage is pitiful (and lets not pretend that just because you're nano-augmented that you'll punch trough walls, or will have the power to do so). Second, melee combat is much better and delivers more thrills and fun with regular melee based weapons (knives, swords). Third, imagine you're fighting a Commando. In the middle of the fight, you run out of ammo - what will you use first, a knife or a hand?

The idea behind melee weapons in FPS combat is their effectiveness. This isn't the magical world of Morrowind, where Unarmed combat is viable. Its an FPS at core, so you'll use weapons. And how effective can your hands be when fighting armoured foes? Imagine you're fighting an enemy wearing an exo-skeleton: obviously, the exo-skeleton, in order to be combat-efficient, will need maleable parts. If your only chance of getting trough the exos-skeletons' armour is to go trough those maleable parts, what would be more effective: a hand or a knife? You can't use your hand to cut trough metal, or supple parts of the exo; though you can use a knife to cut trough it.

I think its just comes down to effectiveness, that's all. Punching, in fact, won't help in stealthy maneuvers. You can't quietly punch someone, but you can quietly stab someone. Again, imagine you're surrounded, and ammoless, and only have a knife (or any other melee weapon). You can't act like Smith in the Matrix and use your fists, you'll always have to go with something that can cause damage. In this case, melee weapons.

Matt Buchanan
29th Jun 2003, 12:20
Deus Ex is all about opportunity, realism and freedom. There should be a punch/unarmed combat function in the game as this would enchance your freedom so as you could choose whether or not you wanna smash someone's face in with a crowbar, attach them to the national grid with an electric prod, make their eyes bleed with pepper spray or deliver a swift blow to the head knocking them unconcious.
A punch/unarmed combat function would also add realism and prove that JC Denton is capable of fighting without using a weapon and it would add a very interesting side to the game.
Having the opportunity to many different things in Deus Ex is what makes it great. You can do so many things in the game, you can even read a newspaper, go for a beer, take a shower, check your e-mail and as you know much more. Amongst all of those options there is not an unarmed combat/punch option, which is a very basic and simplistic option indeed which you expect that option to be already implemented and I and all of my gaming friends feel that this is an option that is missing. My friends are more than often suprised to find in a game so great that there is not an unarmed combat funtion.

Matt Buchanan
29th Jun 2003, 12:35
Oh by the way if you ever did come up against someone wearing an exo-skeleton i have advice for you... USE A DAM WEAPON!!!!
I simply suggested a punch/unarmed combat "function" not to merge the Deus Ex with Knockout Kings. This means would be to attack using weapons; knife, pepper spray, pistol etc.

Anyways I hope I cleared things up a bit for you "Trollslayer" in my last messege and this one.
Take care,
Matt :)

Trollslayer
29th Jun 2003, 15:42
I understand what you mean (this is somehow close to the pistol dual-wielding debate). It presents opportunity and realism, and freedom. However, the problem is that realism is not always credible.

Lets suppose that you had an unarmed function in DX1. It'd prolly have to be very close-ranged (mainly because its dependant on contact, while with a knife the contact range would be slightly longer). Damage would be blunt typed (there i go, allowing D&D terminology to invade my posts :p ). Punching, in itself, is not lethal (i could point out some 5 or 6 moves that could be lethal, but i doubt they'd be used in DX2 :D ).

Like i was saying, if in DX1 i would have a punch feature, i'd rarely, if ever, use it. The afforemntioned realism is what would stop making it credible. JC was nano-augmented, with superior strength and reflexes, true (and story-wise, it'd be strange if he never learned how to use his fists in the training academy), but how credible would it be for him to go against people with helmets, reinforced body vests, sub-dermal plates, and whatnots? Because i can understand that a knife can be slipped between a vest's side, or at the back of the head where a helmet ends; however, the fist wouldn't cut it - both in effectiveness and damage the fist wouldn't work. You can imagine a police baton knocking someone who has a helmet, but i doubt you can imagine someone achieving the same with his hand.

And yet, another example of how realism would mix it up: if you are about to punch someone, and that person has a gun, and that person is determined to get you, how do you think that person would realistically act? They wouldn't drop the gun and engage in a melee brawl, that much i can tell you - they'd flat out draw and shoot (in fact, if you let an NSF soldier see you in DX1, draw your knife and try to hit him - most often than not, he won't stay still, will he? He'll be shooting you, and be on the move - and the same would undoubtely happen with fists as a weapon).

Also considering it'd be a melee type weapon, its got to have its own damage model. I'd have to punch someone about 10 times before i'd knock that someone out; but with a knife, one or two slashes and its "Floor, meet terrorist.". If using fists would be implemented, its use would prolly disapoint.

Meanwhile, how credible would it be to fight with fists when no one else did it? Furthermore, i've yet to see an FPS-styled game where first person fist attacks are satisfying (no, Morrowind doesn't satisfy me much :p ).

You do have a point, of allowing it to be used (giving it that extra nice touch), however i don't personally feel it'd be viable. Of course, then again, im not a game designer, i'm just an anonymous poster on the web :D , and im just giving personal input, not exactly going trough lenghtly treatises on how and why it won't be included in DX2. For all i know Warren might come up with an idea to have nano-augs in your knuckles or carbon-based claws (a la Neuromancer, or Shadowrun, if you didn't read Gibson's book).

Cheers. :D

NoNicknameForMe
29th Jun 2003, 19:49
After I beat the game once, i'd have to go back through only punching... so I am kinda glad it isnt in the game.

FliX
29th Jun 2003, 20:49
there arnt that many FPS games that allow punching....

the only ones i can think of atm are SIN and Kingpin IIRC

i dont think its that important

Big Ragu
30th Jun 2003, 02:47
Point is Deus Ex didn't need punching, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
30th Jun 2003, 08:52
I think that at least foor the first part of DX1 (ie until you come to Paris), only a few ennemies have exoskeleton. and after that, I dont't think melee weapons (aprat from lightsaber) are very effective (I might be wrong, I know). So for the first part of the game, I would prefere punching a non-strong-armored guard than having to keep a baton in the inventory, since the range is not SO different, and if you can come in range for the baton without being noticed, you can make one step further and punch him instead of baton-ing him.

JeffDenton
4th Jul 2003, 02:18
Although the melee combat was fine, I would also like to see a punching function. It would be great to use your hands as a weapon along with your strength augs. C'mon people, you can't deny the fact that having superhuman strength and using it against your enemies wouldn't be cool. Imagine watching your enemy's body go flying after you inflict mortal damage on him with just your fists. Punching through drywall is possible (easily) in reality, and breaking through iron and many of its alloys has been accomplished by real people on many occasions. Why wouldn't it be possible for a nano-augmented agent on your computer to do so?

Grey Mouser
4th Jul 2003, 03:09
Anybody here play Max Payne with the very cool Kung-Fu mod?

I liked Max without it. But I really like Max with it!



and yes, Max and JC are two very different characters and games....but still...

Big Ragu
4th Jul 2003, 05:06
No offense Mr. GreyMouser, but Deus Ex is a very different type of game then Max Payne. Max Payne was a pure, no holds bar action shooter. Something like Kung Fu fits perfectly in that, but Deus Ex is focused more on thinking than shooting.I think some modders should make a Kung Fu mod for IW when it comes out so if you want it, you can get it. But if it ships with Kung Fu, it would radically alter the mood of the game.

And to answer your question, Kung Fu v3.0 is one of the best mods I've ever played.

Grey Mouser
4th Jul 2003, 07:38
Originally posted by Big Ragu
No offense Mr. GreyMouser, but Deus Ex is a very different type of game then Max Payne.

None taken, and it so happens I agree that HTH combat would be sort of wrong for DX...and yeah, it just (in my opinion) would not really fit DX:IW either. But still...I guess I want to play that hypothetical mod for DX:IW some day. :)




And to answer your question, Kung Fu v3.0 is one of the best mods I've ever played.

Nice! I thought so too. :cool:

JeffDenton
5th Jul 2003, 00:56
Well, still... we need to have some more use for the superhuman strength augs than to just be able to lift heavy boxes. We need to have *some* hand to hand combat and the use of heavy items to be used as shields or weapons to be thrown; like cars and small planes.
*lifts car over head and throws using his level 4 strength augmentation*

yachimec
8th Jul 2003, 15:26
I think that hand-to-hand combat could be made to work (although melee combat isn't usually very exciting in an fps).
You could have an aug that would go something like this:

"Shock-Knuckles (bear with me)
Arm musculature is enhanced with nanofibres, multiplying strength. Ultra-high vibration emitters are implanted in the knuckles, resulting in an attack that can shatter concrete"

I think that what we all want to see is a guy get punched in the gut, fly twenty feet backwards, and carome his head off of an exposed railing (or at least I do).

crimson_stallion
9th Jul 2003, 02:01
Originally posted by Trollslayer
I don't think punching should be included.

First, fist damage is pitiful (and lets not pretend that just because you're nano-augmented that you'll punch trough walls, or will have the power to do so). Second, melee combat is much better and delivers more thrills and fun with regular melee based weapons (knives, swords). Third, imagine you're fighting a Commando. In the middle of the fight, you run out of ammo - what will you use first, a knife or a hand?

The idea behind melee weapons in FPS combat is their effectiveness. This isn't the magical world of Morrowind, where Unarmed combat is viable. Its an FPS at core, so you'll use weapons. And how effective can your hands be when fighting armoured foes? Imagine you're fighting an enemy wearing an exo-skeleton: obviously, the exo-skeleton, in order to be combat-efficient, will need maleable parts. If your only chance of getting trough the exos-skeletons' armour is to go trough those maleable parts, what would be more effective: a hand or a knife? You can't use your hand to cut trough metal, or supple parts of the exo; though you can use a knife to cut trough it.

I think its just comes down to effectiveness, that's all. Punching, in fact, won't help in stealthy maneuvers. You can't quietly punch someone, but you can quietly stab someone. Again, imagine you're surrounded, and ammoless, and only have a knife (or any other melee weapon). You can't act like Smith in the Matrix and use your fists, you'll always have to go with something that can cause damage. In this case, melee weapons.

I actually agree that punching would be good. Soi amany times i recall me findign a nice shiny gep gun, and couldnt afford to drop any items to pick it up. The only unuseful item i had was a mellee weapon that i used to smash crates. If i throw it, then i have to shoot crates, which is a big waste of ammo. So, naturally, crowbar comes, gep gun stays. it was abit annoying. even if fists (or kicks) were near useless against enemies, it would be useful for breaking crates. melee weapons take up useful space, i found myseld throwing crates down stairs to break them so i could get extra inventory space.

Also it ouwld be nice to be able to sneak up behind someone (as it is a very stealth based game) and use your hands to dispose of them (choke, break their neck, etc). Thats not an unrealistic feature for a super agent to be able to do.

Maybe you could introduce a pain factor. Punching a wall could cost you a 1 or 2 health.

Loreleye
9th Jul 2003, 10:26
Ok, If you think a bit, if you are able to puch, why not kick too? I dont think you should be able to do either, what sort of COP would do that? In Deus ex, you are suppose to be good, and not kill your enemie? remember what paul says in the start?
The only reaseon for why I dont use meele weapon is that there is no long distance weapon that dont kill, and close combat where always difficult, since the gameplay where so stiff!
If the arrow wepone could have a arrow that knocked them down imidiatly, but not killed them!
If you able to puch why not being able to puch someone whit your stumach, if you having a big stumoch, where does it ends? This game aint made for people to have fun whitout the gameconcepts, no fun for fun if it aint for the game!!!!!!!

Foten
9th Jul 2003, 10:44
Originally posted by Loreleye
Ok, If you think a bit, if you are able to puch, why not kick too?

Yeah like in Duke Nukem 3D when u can kick whit ur both feets at the same time.:D

Skylink
9th Jul 2003, 12:21
Duke Nukem offers kicking :)

crimson_stallion
10th Jul 2003, 03:40
Originally posted by Loreleye
Ok, If you think a bit, if you are able to puch, why not kick too? I dont think you should be able to do either, what sort of COP would do that? In Deus ex, you are suppose to be good, and not kill your enemie? remember what paul says in the start?
The only reaseon for why I dont use meele weapon is that there is no long distance weapon that dont kill, and close combat where always difficult, since the gameplay where so stiff!
If the arrow wepone could have a arrow that knocked them down imidiatly, but not killed them!
If you able to puch why not being able to puch someone whit your stumach, if you having a big stumoch, where does it ends? This game aint made for people to have fun whitout the gameconcepts, no fun for fun if it aint for the game!!!!!!!

Think more into it. I'm not 100% sure about this, but the impression i got when i finished the game, was that the reason paul urged non-lethal tactics was because he was actually on the other side, and he didnt want you killing the people that were in reality his mates.

Aside from this, even though he told you to be non-lethal, the great thing about the game was that you had the option. You dont need to be able to punch and kick. And its not unrealistic for a agent to use his hands in any way. According to deus ex, a super government ultra agent would be completely defenceless if he didnt have a weapon. Does that sound realistic? If you want to be non violent, how about the hitman approach (poisoned towel on the face to temporarily render an opponent unconscious)?

I just didnt like the fact that when i diddnt have a weapon in hand, i was defenceless. If i was low on ammo and didnt want to waste it, id have to use some melee weapon, which to me were in generally a waste of inventory cos i only ever used them to break crates (for stealth neutralising i just used darts or the prod). Do you get what i mean? Like, i dont mean have a kung foo karate slap, or boxing punches, but some kind of unarmed ability. If you had something like a unarmed move, maybe you could make it practically instantly lethal/disabling if the enemie was unaware of you beign there, and pratically useless if they were aware. That way it would be usefeul, but not poewrful enough to make weapons unecessary.

To me, the only useful melee weapons were the dragon tooth and the prod. For example, in splinter cell if you are out of ammo you can still sneak up behind a gut, grab him, and put a gun to his head, then knock him out. But if he sees you then its too hard to get behind him to do it. In hitman 2 with the anestetic and fibre wire it was a similar concept. I think in both cases they worked excellent. i'd like to see something like that.

Do you think no cop would punch a guy? If you are a cop, and have a threat, and you dont have a weapon ready, you will not hesitate to use your hands if you have the opportunity.

As for the punching with the stomach.. thats just a stupid comparison because obviosuly you were being sarcastic, but its not unrealistic for a cop/agent to use his hands. Try to hit a cop and see what happens ok? lol i assure you he wont shot you with a dart or a gun.maybe hit you wiht a batton.. lol

crimson_stallion
10th Jul 2003, 03:41
Originally posted by Skylink
Duke Nukem offers kicking :)

Haha yep. wasnt that soo fun? just kickign that pig cop in the face lol. Special the double feet kick :p

Loreleye
10th Jul 2003, 19:21
Ok, I just wantet to know where to draw the line! If you can hit a person whit your hands, why just the hands? why not go over and hit someone whit your fat stumoch to?? that is realistic if you could do that???? Or is it just not realistic since you would not see any cop or agent do so? Well I just think that the line has to be draw somewhere, and I was happy about where Ion Storm draw it!!!!!!

crimson_stallion
11th Jul 2003, 04:50
Originally posted by Loreleye
Ok, I just wantet to know where to draw the line! If you can hit a person whit your hands, why just the hands? why not go over and hit someone whit your fat stumoch to?? that is realistic if you could do that???? Or is it just not realistic since you would not see any cop or agent do so? Well I just think that the line has to be draw somewhere, and I was happy about where Ion Storm draw it!!!!!!

Hitting someone with your stomach just doesnt make sense. . . about the only place that fits in is a console comedic fighting game or something. Maybe an old funny platformer. Personally i've never seen a police officer hit soemone with their stomach (or anyone else for tha tamtter) but to hit someone with a fist isfar from uncommon...

TheDerf
11th Jul 2003, 08:37
This guy wants to add punching to make the game realistic. Well let's go all out on the realism! How about incorporating a bladder and colon meter in the top right corner next to the health? They both fill up over time, but the speed they fill up can be influenced by whether or not you've been in several gunfights, whether or not to talk to a lot of women, or how much food/drink you've ingested. How genius! Now we know why those bathrooms are all over Deus Ex huh?

You run slower as your colon and bladder meters fill up. When the meters are nearing full, you can't fire larger weapons because at least one hand is keeping your bladder/colon from exploding. When the meters are full, you can't fire any weapons because both of your hands are down there. People won't talk to you when either meter is full. If your meter is full for more than a minute, you fall on the ground and die in a puddle of your own excrement.

Wow, that blows punching out of the water, doesn't it?

Loreleye
11th Jul 2003, 09:49
Well I dont know, if my bladder where full I would probably not lie down and die, I would let it all out instead though! wether Im in a bathroom or not!!!
I just wantet to get the line where people think the extra should be in! There no point in being able to punch for realism, if you cant kick!!!!!
If so, it is just that you love to punch, and not that you should be able to do it i Deus ex!
Well, if you got a big stomach, you could take more damage too you know, you are able to survive more gunshots! That would be realistic or what? And if you are heavy, you could jump on someone lower then you, and he would be squeezed under your big big stomach!!!!

Actually, I think you see that realism in a computer game aint maid just because you can punch or not!!!

P.S. I dont got a stomach fetish if you thought so! I just took an example that most would find odd, and put it on the tip! And, if it where to be more realistic, you could let your bladder and the **** from your back go, and the enemise would go away just because of the smell it makes? The developers have to draw a line from where you can see it is a game, or reality. It is a lot of more programming too get a total realistic game, then anyone would do! that would take years and years! maybe a whole lifetime!!!! If it is possible???????

JeffDenton
12th Jul 2003, 03:44
I think that this post is losing its point! The post is supposed to be about the subject of punching in the game. If you want a post about game realism, start a new thread. Although the bladder/colon meter was kind of funny...

vick1000
12th Jul 2003, 04:06
I'm sure someone could make a Mod using the gas effect.
That way you could rip one and the enimies would do the
gag thing.BTW,those voice overs for the gagging and burning
enimies in DX were some of the funniest ever,well worth
carrying a few gas grenades and a flamethrower.

AHHHH....AHHHH....AHH....AH...OHHHHH!!!!:D

daemoniak
12th Jul 2003, 21:55
brass knuckles are always cool

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 03:40
Originally posted by daemoniak
brass knuckles are always cool

true :) and i agree that this thread is starting to get abit ..strange.. lol. Maybe someone should introduce a new thread called "weird and comedic ideas" so that other threads can stay a little more on topic..:P

Loreleye
13th Jul 2003, 16:43
Ok, I never gone off topic, but somtimes not all my words can stay on topic, but I think that punching should only be in games where it has some use, not just because it is fun sometimes, or it should be there cuz of realism! But if it should be there cuz realism, then I ask why exactly punching, and not all the other thing a man or woman can do, should be in the game to! Then we sit left whit fun! Cuz I dont see how it is useful in the game!!! It aint useful other then what the meelee could do!
Someone seen to much on TV, and the fightings, thats not how the world is! in the world JC live in, it will have to be stealthy and or just run over them whit exessive force, but he would never just jump forward and twist he`s head and he die, he would use a smart devise, the mini crossbow! Or the knives. never he`s hands!
Of course he would punch him if he had to! But would you punch a man whit a machine gun? I dont see that! So then we are left whit fun! and should thing be in games just for fun?? Should you be able to punch the citiziens in your city in sim city 4????

Fire_Power
13th Jul 2003, 22:06
I doubt he meant that punching should be your primary means of combat. I can think of many situations where you need to defend yourself, but are unable to wield a gun/knife/mace.
I don't know about other places in the world, but in the US, carrying a gun in full view is a great way to get attention. What happens if a person attacks you in public and you gun him down? Some sort of cop (UNATCO or other) will probably try to mow you down. Instead, why not punch the guy in defense? Now the cop will help you, instead of kill you.
Also, punching a person would be a great way to make someone divulge information. Threatening them may or may not work, and killing them certaintly won't get you any answers.

TheDerf
13th Jul 2003, 23:04
Melee weapons are just too adundant in Deus Ex to even bother with punching. You can find a shank on any other person you come by. There's really just no use for punching, but if you want to torture somebody, melee weapons would do a better job.

crimson_stallion
14th Jul 2003, 13:09
Originally posted by Loreleye
Ok, I never gone off topic, but somtimes not all my words can stay on topic, but I think that punching should only be in games where it has some use, not just because it is fun sometimes, or it should be there cuz of realism! But if it should be there cuz realism, then I ask why exactly punching, and not all the other thing a man or woman can do, should be in the game to! Then we sit left whit fun! Cuz I dont see how it is useful in the game!!! It aint useful other then what the meelee could do!
Someone seen to much on TV, and the fightings, thats not how the world is! in the world JC live in, it will have to be stealthy and or just run over them whit exessive force, but he would never just jump forward and twist he`s head and he die, he would use a smart devise, the mini crossbow! Or the knives. never he`s hands!
Of course he would punch him if he had to! But would you punch a man whit a machine gun? I dont see that! So then we are left whit fun! and should thing be in games just for fun?? Should you be able to punch the citiziens in your city in sim city 4????

Ok, well i'll try to put down my case as basic and clear as possible.

I did not suggest to include punching for fun, nor for realism. I was saying it was realistic because i think someone said that it isn't, so i was providing examples to counter that view.

My reason for including hand to hand combat (not neccessarily punching in particular) was as a useful form to dispatch an enemy quickly and quietly without being seen or heard, without wasting ammo, and without having to waste inventory space on a melee weapon.

As I said, the ability to grab an enemie from behind and knock him out (in splinter cell) is not just fun and realistic, but useful. If you run out of ammo (or dont want to waste any) or want to maximise the element of surprise and take advantage of a situation (rather then running through you rinventory to find a melee weapon, wasting valuable seconds, and blowing the chance) you can simply grab teh guy from behind, take him somewhere dark and quiet, and knock him out.

Similarly, in hitman 2, ifyou dont want to leave blood stains, risk missing a target with a silenced shot (and alerting him toyour presence in the process) or have no ammo, you can simply use the anesthetic to knock him out OR take him out with the fibre wire, then drag his body away. This again, is not just for fun or realism, but is useful at times where a bullet is not suitable, and a melee weapon (like a knife or golf club) will simply do abit of damage, alert the guy to your presence, and have him turn around and start bashing you, leaving you with little or no choice but to rip out a pistol and fire away.

This is the type of unarmed combat I had in mind. Some way to sneak up behind a person, and use your hands to perform some move that will instantly kill (or instantly knock out) the opponent.

As useful as trank darks are, one shot doesn't disable a guy instantly, the effect takes time. Enough time for him to raise an alarm, start shooting, or call out (either of which can bring more enemies and completely eliminate your chances of that
'silent takedown'.

Similarly, sneakign up behind a guy and smacking him with a crowbar (or any other melee weapon, except the dragon tooth), even if to the head, does not instantly disable a target. Unless you use microfibal uscle augs and/or have full melee skills, it tkes more then one hit. Again, this gives the opponent a chance to retaliate and /or bring reinforcements.

For these reasons, there were times when i simply popped a round from my silenced sniper rifle in to teh enemies head, simply because i could not afford to have him call more guys, and I needed a sure kill.

To make melee weapons or trank darts instant (at killing or knocking out) would make them too powerful weapons. This would make it easier to just go through a level hitting people with melee weapons or darts and getting instant knockouts. Therefore, this would not be a good option.

However, to enable a unarmed move, (which can only be performed from behind an enemy and/or if an enemy is unallerted), that either instantly kills or knocks out your enemy, (such as those in splinter cell and hitman) would be the perfect tool for eliminatign a threat without having to worry about dealing with them again (or their friends).

Also, you would not ALWAYS be able to realistically get behind an enemy without being seen, which means players wouldnt be able to use its instant elimination factor to easily 'cheat' their way through the game.

When I said punching / hand to hand combat, this is what I had in mind. Something that can give instant, guaranteed results, be perfectly stealthy and silent, and effective. It doesnt have to be an unarmed thing, that is just my idea for implementing it. Maybe melee weapons can be adjusted so that sneaky hits from behind give instant death or unconciousness, doesn't bother me, just the concept in general. Sorry I any of my other posts sounded offensive or disrespectful in any way, it wasn't intended. :)

TheDerf
14th Jul 2003, 14:59
Crimson, I agree. It would be realistic for a super nano-augmented up the ass stealthy top secret government agent to be familar with those kinds of tactics. I think that Ion Storm would've put it in Deus Ex if the game engine wasn't so simplistic, because to add that stuff in and make it work, you'd have to animate another few "character deaths." I mean, if you go and snap somebody's neck, you don't want them to fall forward like a brick as if you shot them. You want to see them lose all feeling and flop on the ground in front of you. Character animation was not one of the strong points in Deus Ex. Obviously the animators had a tough time with it seeing as they could only come up with three ways for a person to die. However, I think that Crimson's idea will be in the sequel, because being able to do that is "not just fun and realistic, but useful."

Loreleye
14th Jul 2003, 16:10
Ok, I agree taht could be great! But someone can always come up whit something that would be great and useful! It would be useful to be invisible, but you cant go invisible in Deus ex! So everything that would be useful aint always good! Bad example, cuz I think it would be stylish to be invisible!
So then my point is only, where draw the line to what should be in a game! So therefore we cant just think about useful, fun, nor realism. Cuz it aint always fit a game, even though thous criterias are there!!!!!!

It would be useful that the melee weapens where instant lethal? So why dont you want the crossbow to be instant? Cuz as you said Crimson, It would be too easy! But I think that Ion Storm could come up whit something that made it harder!!!

Im left whit a feeling that there is something to say, but i cant come up whit what! Well sometimes I have to just stop, or I would talk a hole in your heads!!!!

Catman
14th Jul 2003, 18:10
Not to be picky, but you can go invisible in Deus Ex if you have the right augmentation installed. ;)

Loreleye
14th Jul 2003, 19:57
Ok, No its fine, though that was not the point! But thanks, i have nothing against being better, so just tell when i makes misstakes!

TheDerf
14th Jul 2003, 21:22
Well Loreleye, why isn't crimson's idea suitable for Deus Ex?

and...

Is your period key broken?

Loreleye
14th Jul 2003, 21:26
Hm, well it aint, cuz I just cant imaging JC using he`s hands, and tahts it! I dont think that the atmosphere would be the same, thats it!

TheDerf
14th Jul 2003, 22:42
Well if you don't like the idea of JC using his hands, don't use them. So there's your problem solved, now how about you try and give me a better answer.

crimson_stallion
15th Jul 2003, 01:38
Originally posted by Loreleye
Ok, I agree taht could be great! But someone can always come up whit something that would be great and useful! It would be useful to be invisible, but you cant go invisible in Deus ex! So everything that would be useful aint always good! Bad example, cuz I think it would be stylish to be invisible!
So then my point is only, where draw the line to what should be in a game! So therefore we cant just think about useful, fun, nor realism. Cuz it aint always fit a game, even though thous criterias are there!!!!!!

It would be useful that the melee weapens where instant lethal? So why dont you want the crossbow to be instant? Cuz as you said Crimson, It would be too easy! But I think that Ion Storm could come up whit something that made it harder!!!

Im left whit a feeling that there is something to say, but i cant come up whit what! Well sometimes I have to just stop, or I would talk a hole in your heads!!!!

Remember the cloak AUG? :P hehehe

The_Monopolizer
21st Jul 2003, 01:12
Ignore punching. What we really need is a multiple melee options.

I think Splinter Cell is a very good example. In that game, if you are touching an enemy and unarmed, you use your elbow to smack him. I think this attack is kind of silly since usually he is shooting you and it looks rediculous to see this guy repeatedly elbowing this guy who is unloading a pistol into him. The GOOD melee in splinter cell is the GRAB! You just sneak up on someone, hit action, and you grab him and hold him hostage. This move, is actually fairly realistic looking (though they dont complain or fight much in the game).

If DX:IW EVER does an expanded melee mode, it should be more than just a left mouse button attack. Here are some ideas:
1) If they are unaware, do the splinter cell type thing and grab them from behind. This would actually be complex, code and design wise, since then you'd have to consider it a kind of hostage situation, and other guards would have to react in a way other than opening up on thier patrol buddy.
2) Throw them to the ground! Most real life fights end up with something like this anyway, and it would be a good way to stun them while you take out your gun/prod.
3) A sort of disarm maneuver. Think like grabbing thier arm from
behind, and pulling the gun away.
4) Pistol whip, or some sort of weapon smacking. This increases immersion (since you can do it in real life), and gives an unarmed option to people who dont have one. This would kind of minimize the necessity of the baton type weapon, but perhaps the baton could be made more useful than the pistol grip.

Kickboxing though, seems rediculous. I don't think any real commando, hitman, or other professional fighter would EVER prefer to run up and PUNCH someone in the face rather than pistol whip, grab, or throw them.

These moves I think would help players be non-lethal, and would increase immersion a little IMO. Also if you were sneaking, itd be pretty cool to push the guard over and run instead of blowing his head off.


Oh yeah, why can't you just open the crate? Who the hell stores med kits, binoculars, sniper rifle ammo, body armor, and MONEY, IN WOODEN CRATES?
I hope DX:IW gets rid of the crate as the standard item-holder.

crimson_stallion
22nd Jul 2003, 14:23
Yep, some good points. he hostage situation idea could be interesting. More humane enemies may hold their fire, or even drop weapons, while ruthless enemies may just fire anyway with little regard for their fellow mercenary.

Like i mentioned before, the grab from behind woulddefinately be nice. I have to admit though it may be quite hard to implement, and ive never seen anything of the like in a first person game before. It would REALLY be something big if they did though.

Not to sure about the throwing though. That may be takign the unarmed combat abit far. I'd like to see a useful option for unarmed combat, but dont think too many things would be a good idea.;)

ZFGokuSSJ1
22nd Jul 2003, 15:48
IMO, there should be punching. Let's say you want a take-down WITHOUT weapons, just punch the guys in the head. I don't see why it shouldn't be in there.

operative x
22nd Jul 2003, 20:05
The punching idea is ok, but they should have a taser/gun thing!!! So you could creep up behind some guy and shock him so he will drop his gun then fall to the flour and start twitching then start to foam at the mouth!! that would be the coolest thing!!. Then you can also have metal conduct electricity in the game to use against the bad guys like if one dude is standing on some metal crate you could zap the crate and the electricity could zap the guy or if he is leaning on a metal hand rail you could zap that and the electricity would travel down the rail to zap the guy!!!!!

Mr.Tellurian
22nd Jul 2003, 22:57
I think it was in one of the XIII ingame-movies where I witnessed the Player being able to knock people around with the Gun's stock. So it IS possible to do such a thing with the UW Engine, so it is just a question of whether or not the developers want such a thing in IW.
Peronally I always somehow missed close combat possibillities in DX. I mean some of the game's style, JCs Coat-and-Shades look at least, reminded me of the Matrix, so it would have fitted the mood if he had been able to pull a few Kung Fu tricks.
Nearly all Cyberpunkish-Hero figures can do such things, just remember Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell who was actually a Fullborg and still able to kick the **** out of people.
It would fit the style and it woul definetly give the players a whole lot of new possibillitys of solving a level. Which means more freedom in gaming decisions.
Of course it is not nececarry and DX is still the best game ever created (IMHO) even without that...

Big Ragu
23rd Jul 2003, 06:01
Originally posted by Mr.Tellurian
...JCs Coat-and-Shades look at least, reminded me of the Matrix, so it would have fitted the mood if he had been able to pull a few Kung Fu tricks. ..


Watch out saying Matrix around here, some people are really tired of all the hype about it, even though I still think that you should be able to still do some SIMPLE little tricks here and there. Just a warning.:)

Trollslayer
23rd Jul 2003, 12:01
Originally posted by ZFGokuSSJ1
IMO, there should be punching. Let's say you want a take-down WITHOUT weapons, just punch the guys in the head. I don't see why it shouldn't be in there.

Erm...

1) You may not be able to take down someone with just a punch, it depends, as some people might be more or less resistant to punches;

2) You can't try to take down a humanoid, armored (or wearing a helmet) enemy with a punch (imagine an MJ12 commando, or a riot cop) - it won't work. Its a scientific fact that flesh against kevlar, or metal, fails :D ;

3) If you get unlucky and find someone who resists more to your punches, your "silent" takedown will be noticed by the sound of the fight, and won't be silent no longer;

4) To quickly make an unarmed takedown, you don't resort to punches most of the times. Here are the 3 most common unarmed takedowns:

a) Hitting with each of your rists on an opponents' ears;

b) Pressing someone's nerve area, between the neck and the shoulder (the deltoid, if i'm not mistaken);

c) Hitting an opponent in the back of their head (usually with a club, or baton).

Punching needs to be dealt by the front. And engaging enemies by the front =/= stealth. The minute someone spots you, you can try all you want to punch, but its more than likely to fail.

In fact the only way i remember of making a takedown by punching is delivering an uppercut to the clavicule (nose bone), making the bone penetrate the brain (you'd have to be pretty strong to pull it off, though) - is the only semi-quick way of knocking out someone with punches in unarmed, "silent" combat. But if its already hard to hit someone on the move, imagine trying to uppercut someone's nose on the move O_O

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Jul 2003, 13:33
1) You may not be able to take down someone with just a punch, it depends, as some people might be more or less resistant to punches;

like for any weapon. did you try to hit an armored bot with a knife?


3) If you get unlucky and find someone who resists more to your punches, your "silent" takedown will be noticed by the sound of the fight, and won't be silent no longer;

that's a risk, but it's the same for every silent take down (trank-ed guards run around screaming, guys you hit bith the crowbar or the baton may runaround and scream if you fail, etc)


Punching needs to be dealt by the front. And engaging enemies by the front =/= stealth.

yes, but you can run to him and hit him BEFORE he reacts. like in real life

*EDIT* oh, and
to the clavicule (nose bone),
I think the clavicule is the bone between your shoulder and the side of the neck. there is no bone in the nose, it's a carthilage. and you can also take someone down in one hit by punching him hard under the chin (ever saw a boxe match?)

Trollslayer
23rd Jul 2003, 14:18
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
[B]like for any weapon. did you try to hit an armored bot with a knife?

Yup. Didn't worked. :D

However, that's slightly different. What we're talking about is resistance to blunt attacks. People are more likely to resist punches than a shotgun blast to the torso. People are more likely to resist punches than a bullet trough the head. A silenced pistol WILL make a silent takedown. A punch will not. People can handle much better a punch than a bullet, because the body absorbs the damage (because its blunt), but with a bullet, the body is pitifully weak in absorbing that missile, piercing damage. You can duke it out with a person for some minutes (hell an aquaintance of mine and me duked it out for 10 minutes... and BTW, it wasn't stealthy :D). However, if either of us was using a pistol, the combat would end foe one of us, at about the second bullet.


that's a risk, but it's the same for every silent take down (trank-ed guards run around screaming, guys you hit bith the crowbar or the baton may runaround and scream if you fail, etc)

Thats right, but between using a weapon that will allow me to dispose quickly of my enemies, or my bare hands, i'll take the weapon, thank you very much :)


yes, but you can run to him and hit him BEFORE he reacts. like in real life

Thats if he's not wearing head gear, and if he doesn't resist the blow, or entirely dodge it. And again, a sneak attack with a knife, or club, to the head, is more silent and effective than a frontal punch with said weapons.

This was evident in DX1 - if you went to someone's front and started stabbing, the person would run around, firing at you. If you did the same in their back, you'd hit (i could intantly kill an NSFer with a knife to the back of its head, but it would take me about 3 or 4 stabs if i tried to kill him frontally - and those 4 stabs would cost me a limb that was utterly blown away by a sawed-off shotgun, or assault rifle). Of course, they will run regardless of what weapon you use when you approach them frontally - but while you also have to run around after them you punch, you can stand still with a gun and fire at will. While you'd run around trying to "silently take the enemy down with a punch", he'd have already alerted his buddies. With a pistol, you can make quick work of him, and his buddies.

And the fact that some people still forget - just because Alex could be using his fists, that doesn't mean his enemies would. (I believe i've already mentioned that one ;) ) So while the PC would be running around trying to punch people "silently", enemies wil ljust draw what they have and fire at will.


I think the clavicule is the bone between your shoulder and the side of the neck. there is no bone in the nose, it's a carthilage. and you can also take someone down in one hit by punching him hard under the chin (ever saw a boxe match?)

Thanks for the correction, i was almost sure the nose had a bone (and not a cartilage), and that it was the clavicule. My apologies on that one. Though the cartilage trough the brain, afair, is viable.

And that blow to the jaw is also possible. I've never been to a boxing match (and if all goes well, i won't be, ever).

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Jul 2003, 14:47
hmmm, it seems our way to play the game is slightly different

I was aiming for a silent NON-LETHAL take-down (means no stealth pistol, no knife to the face, etc)

so the only difference would be gaining space/weight in your inventory, and have a less effective hit. (again it's a question of choice)

and since your are a well trained, bio-augmented superagent, your punches should at least knock-out the regular guard, who usually does not wear a full-head helm

oh, and I used the frontal take-down a few time, when I couldn't avoid it (you, know, just jump from behind a crate when the guard is comming close), with the prod, and it works just right. so I think a well-aimed punch (in the face, but some other places might be just as effective) can just have the same result

Trollslayer
23rd Jul 2003, 15:51
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
[B]hmmm, it seems our way to play the game is slightly different

I was aiming for a silent NON-LETHAL take-down (means no stealth pistol, no knife to the face, etc)

Oh, sorry. I thought you meant silent takedown only, i didn't noticed if you said non-lethal or not, and because i didn't noticed so, i didn't considered it.

My tactic for non-lethal is just avoid enemies all together and kill only the necessary (like the 3 required people in DX1). That, or using a nifty AI-bug in DX1 - i usually did not kill enemies because i noticed i could shoot about 3 bullets into them and they'd run away. Same with the crossbow, 3 rounds and they'd run and hide, and wouldn't fire back :D But essentially i resort to all sorts of non-lethal maneuvers or distractions, but never takedowns.

I recall not even touching a soldier on Libery Island. I also totally disable turrets ( i don't set them to fire at enemies). I use tear gas to quickly run trough an area or to stun enemies while i open a door. I don't destroy robots, i either avoid or use EMP grenades, etc.. Neither takedowns, nor lethal ;)

Besides, it also depends on what we consider non-lethal... i don't use tranquilizers because i consider the non-lethal way of putting them to sleep as a kill, regardless. Other people might use tranquilizer darts a plenty because it should knock them unconscious, not kill them. Depends.

I rarely use the prod but usually i do it from the back, then run away. Kinda like teasing the guards :D

But even then, the takedown should be as fast as possible. Punches don't cut it near as fast or effective as a quick touch to the back of the head. A takedown usually envolves quickly subduing your enemy with the least possible danger to yourself. Drawing your fists, no matter how quickly, would not stop the guard from shooting. For instance the hostage situation in the Clinton... there was no way punching would serve as a quick takedown, because the other NSF soldier would listen (or even see you).

PDenton
24th Jul 2003, 08:09
What's the point of using melee weapons or fists to come up and knock people out. I just use a stealth pistol and shoot them in the back of the the head. More effective and less danger if you dont do it first time. What's the point? :confused:
I might knock people out if you could wake them up later and use them as a human sheild or torture information like door codes and computer logins out of them. But to be honest knocking someone out is pretty useless.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
24th Jul 2003, 08:17
hmmm it's called "conscience", you know, trying to be ethical. these guys you kill may not be aware they are doing wrong. the NSF at the beginning are fighting for freedom, the UNATCO are not all bad guys, etc

my point is, this game not being another FPS, I prefer not commiting anything irreversible, even if it's just a game. trying to be realistic, at least in the way I play

don't worry, when I play Quake III, I shoot everything

Deus Ex is not the same Game, being also about decision

and I don't use the crowbar, or the baton, just the prod or the trank crossbow

Trollslayer
24th Jul 2003, 13:13
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
hmmm it's called "conscience", you know, trying to be ethical. these guys you kill may not be aware they are doing wrong. the NSF at the beginning are fighting for freedom, the UNATCO are not all bad guys, etc

my point is, this game not being another FPS, I prefer not commiting anything irreversible, even if it's just a game. trying to be realistic, at least in the way I play

don't worry, when I play Quake III, I shoot everything

Deus Ex is not the same Game, being also about decision

and I don't use the crowbar, or the baton, just the prod or the trank crossbow

I agree with you in that. DX was about quick thinking, and decision making on the fly. Like Paul said, they are still people. I always act accordingly with that, by not killing them. I always do my best to avoid killing them (hence the multiple ways i can come up with to avoid casualties/takedowns).

Bio}{azard
25th Jul 2003, 00:40
i like to whack hobos with me crowbar and peppa that kid that asked for food,wait......peppers a spice....ooops



(whack whack whack (squish squish))

Testimony
25th Jul 2003, 17:59
First things first, flame me all you want or whatever, but this thread has gotten sadly out of hand with adolescent comments and flames.

But...

I just wanted to add my two cents in:

Punching would be good, just to save inventory space. Or hell, think back to DX 1 when you get captured and put in a cell with NO WEAPONS. Well, okay, conveniently you get one, but damn, what if you hadn't? Can you say "screwed" ten times fast?

Second, there was a comment about cops not using their first. Thats a load of BS. I see it all the time from civilian and military cops. Hell, they even teach hand to hand techniques in the military. Check out the CIA and FBI training also. Why the hell would you send an agent out into the world who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag?

By no means am I saying that it should be a primary weapon, but I want at least the option of defending myself if I have no weapons. Who knows, maybe in DX:IW you'll get captured and be weaponless to. You never know

Sense
6th Aug 2003, 17:19
Originally posted by Matt Buchanan
I loved Deus Ex but it did have somethings missing, one of the biggest of these is not being able to punch as you can in so many other 1st person shooter style games. All of my gaming friends strongly agree that there should be a "punch" function and wish there was one. This aspect would make the game much more realistic and allow to attack something in hand-to-hand combat without having to hit it with a crowbar or stab it with a knife. This function would also allow you to do cause smaller amounts of damage and allow you to travel light aswell insted of lugging a crowbar around just for hand-to-hand combat.

Please add a punch function,
Best wishes, Matt.

matt.buchanan@hotmail.com

Yes, that's a good idea. I don't think it would be very hard to add either. And it doesn't just need to be used in combat, I'm sure it would be fun in other situations too. ;)

Sense
6th Aug 2003, 17:23
Originally posted by PDenton
What's the point of using melee weapons or fists to come up and knock people out. I just use a stealth pistol and shoot them in the back of the the head. More effective and less danger if you dont do it first time. What's the point? :confused:
I might knock people out if you could wake them up later and use them as a human sheild or torture information like door codes and computer logins out of them. But to be honest knocking someone out is pretty useless.

Sometimes you're out of ammo... Maybe in DX:IW there will be situations where you don't want to kill someone, like a scientist, just knock them out. Another good idea, I think, would be the ability to hit people with your gun, or anything in your inventory. I know you can throw objects like trashcans at people like this (and hopefully they don't die from a trashcan hit, that will be stupid), but the point is less restrictions. You don't want to just have 1 option of doing something, you want as many as you can. And some things like this, I don't think would take much to add, so there really is no point of not having them. Just my opinion though.

jungernaut
6th Aug 2003, 17:58
Hey there! I can picture running up behind someone, on a building's roof, and pushing or punching them over, or even just using my momentum from running to knock them off (There's your useful "stomach-punch"). You may run the risk of getting countered and thrown off by your enemy, but that would be part of the experience (hopefully, i'd have my leg augmentation).

The part in DX1 when u were captured was a little silly when i found a weapon on the next crate i found. Even Miguel, the NSF, smuggled in a knife and medkit! It made for fun story, but I would rather fight with fists, or at least have to work a bit harder than walking straight into a weapon after Daedalus freed me.

That said, I only support punching/HTH combat if it doesn't look dumb.

Oh yeah, even better than hitting your enemy off a building: Picking them up, holding them over the edge, asking them questions or just intimidating them and letting them go weaponless (like Batman in Batman 1).

Lastly, "grab from behind" maneuvers should not have 100% success rate, but should work on all enemies with a different chance for success (0-100%). Heck, u could disable a bot sneaking up behind it and pulling a wire in its neck.

These would all be fun, but implementing them is another story.

One last thing: Game developers cannot do everything. So we'll just have to continue to wait and to watch--maybe we'll get more of what we want in the future.

Uncle Egon
7th Aug 2003, 00:00
i think it is OK to have punching (or martial artsy moves) in the begining of the game, as a means of melee when you have no other weapons at your finger tips. isn't it the likely event, however, that as you progress through a game you gradually get better equipment?

with that having been said, imagine a player wielding a sledge hammer (or a sword, axe, shovel, frying pan, etc...) and they are considering an attack on an unarmored enemy around the corner. who would drop their currently held weapon to "just punch" them? the weapon you have would cause considerably more damage than a fist, regardless of how resilient to punches they are.

so with having punching in the begining of the game, you have an on deck weapon in the begining and (at your discretion) end of the game. but all in all, punching would be considered obsolete by the end of the game. Example - the knife compared to the sword. Which did you use and why?

*edit*
also, i just considered what someone said about the super strength of the agent. if that were the case to determine damage of punching a number of things could occur from this;
those being:

A) punching would be the only worthy melee weapon in the game, out-matching every other [melee] weapon due to strength modification directly effecting damage.

B) the strength modification of the agent would also work for swinging a coffee mug (or any other melee weapon) at an enemy, determining how fast or hard he is going to swing it. thus the damage would again be balanced and the weed wacker weapon would undoubtedly be stronger than simple punching or kicking anyway.

Trollslayer
7th Aug 2003, 00:11
Originally posted by Uncle Egon
Example - the knife compared to the sword. Which did you use and why?

The knife. The sword "is teh k3wl", but occupies too much inventory space. Unless i create a stealth/melee assassin JC, i don't use the Dragon's Tooth. As a weapon, the DT is good - most powerful melee weapon in terms of damage, longer range than the knife, and can destroy crates with just one blow. But the knife is shorter and two blows to a crate to destroy it isn't that much to me.

Uncle Egon
7th Aug 2003, 00:23
Originally posted by Trollslayer
The knife. The sword "is teh k3wl", but occupies too much inventory space. Unless i create a stealth/melee assassin JC, i don't use the Dragon's Tooth. As a weapon, the DT is good - most powerful melee weapon in terms of damage, longer range than the knife, and can destroy crates with just one blow. But the knife is shorter and two blows to a crate to destroy it isn't that much to me.

You had very reasonable reasons for not using the sword. Consider now if hand to hand (fists) were to take the place of say, the knife. Certainly you would have to use up no inventory spots but at an expense of say four hits to drop a target? also, i hear they do not have inventory spots as like the first game in the second deus ex, so if this were the case would it change your decision to take the knife over the sword?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
7th Aug 2003, 08:06
Originally posted by Uncle Egon
isn't it the likely event, however, that as you progress through a game you gradually get better equipment?
(...)
with that having been said, imagine a player wielding a sledge hammer (or a sword, axe, shovel, frying pan, etc...) and they are considering an attack on an unarmored enemy around the corner. who would drop their currently held weapon to "just punch" them? the weapon you have would cause considerably more damage than a fist, regardless of how resilient to punches they are.


punching still takes at least one less space in your inventory. So I prefer dropping all my melee weapons and punch the guy, and again since I'm sneaking, it's only a worst case scenario. and I would prefer not to have to carry a baton troughout the whole game just because I'm going to meet 3 guys in the game I absolutly can't avoid.

Trollslayer
7th Aug 2003, 10:02
Originally posted by Uncle Egon
You had very reasonable reasons for not using the sword. Consider now if hand to hand (fists) were to take the place of say, the knife. Certainly you would have to use up no inventory spots but at an expense of say four hits to drop a target? also, i hear they do not have inventory spots as like the first game in the second deus ex, so if this were the case would it change your decision to take the knife over the sword?

I'll have to say first that i don't like punching (which i believe was already pointed out in the thread by me :)) If it existed however i see no way it could occupy inventory space - unless IoSt came up with gloves, or other implements, made for hand-to-hand combat. If fists replaced the knife... i'd email Spector and tell him one or two things :D I prefer close quarter bladed melee weapons such as switchblades, machetes or combat/army knives to fists. In the event of it being replaced, guess i'd lose out on a quick way to destroy crates, and on a quick stabbing weapon.

Still regarding the knife and sword, and assuming they'd both reappear under the new inventory scheme... well given this a videogame which doesn't use any real-life tactics when it comes to the use of a knife or a sword, the sword would be a good idea still. The advantage of the sword is that, if the enemies still use the same hit'n'run pattern of DX1, the sword will do a better job. It's length allows me to strike a running enemy because i can reach him better with the sword. The knife is too short, and it has a "regular" blade. The advantage of the sword is length and attack power.

However the knife also has its advantages, also considering that enemy pattern. First, its quicker to draw (you'll remember DX1's animation of the DT firing up took about 2 to 3 seconds - the knife is just drawn). And its also quicker to attack. I'd wager i'd make about 1.5 to 2 stabbing motions with the knife in the same time i'd do 1 attack with the sword. So, while not as powerful or as long as the sword, its quicker to draw and to attack.

Now given the circumstance that it'd be under the new inventory, i'd be quite tempted to use the sword - all the above advantages plus only one space in inventory. BUT... given i prefer to not engage in combat at all (and prefer to play DX1 sneaking and never killing anyone), a great melee weapon such as the sword would be wasted in my hands. I believe i'd still fall back on the knife.

Catman
7th Aug 2003, 13:30
Lara Croft can punch and kick. :D

Sense
7th Aug 2003, 13:52
Originally posted by Uncle Egon
i think it is OK to have punching (or martial artsy moves) in the begining of the game, as a means of melee when you have no other weapons at your finger tips. isn't it the likely event, however, that as you progress through a game you gradually get better equipment?

with that having been said, imagine a player wielding a sledge hammer (or a sword, axe, shovel, frying pan, etc...) and they are considering an attack on an unarmored enemy around the corner. who would drop their currently held weapon to "just punch" them? the weapon you have would cause considerably more damage than a fist, regardless of how resilient to punches they are.

so with having punching in the begining of the game, you have an on deck weapon in the begining and (at your discretion) end of the game. but all in all, punching would be considered obsolete by the end of the game. Example - the knife compared to the sword. Which did you use and why?

*edit*
also, i just considered what someone said about the super strength of the agent. if that were the case to determine damage of punching a number of things could occur from this;
those being:

A) punching would be the only worthy melee weapon in the game, out-matching every other [melee] weapon due to strength modification directly effecting damage.

B) the strength modification of the agent would also work for swinging a coffee mug (or any other melee weapon) at an enemy, determining how fast or hard he is going to swing it. thus the damage would again be balanced and the weed wacker weapon would undoubtedly be stronger than simple punching or kicking anyway.

You might get better equipment, but this is deus ex..hopefully it's very unpredictable..I can think of many options where you might not have any equipment and only being to jump will seem incredibly lame...

Maybe you're taken hostage and all of your equipment is taken, maybe Alex is hated in one city and to meet with someone he must give up all his equipment, or Maybe the group you've aligned yourself with will kick you out if you kill anyone--so non-lethal take downs are necessary, and there should be many options to put someone in submission, just like in real life.

And instead of just dropping weapons, I think it would be a good idea to have the ability to throw your inventory at other characters/objects. Obviously weapons will do more damage, but these could add some fun to the game for sure and could even be practical to some situations.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
7th Aug 2003, 14:54
yes that's one thing that I missed in DX1 : I once tried to throw a big crate (with my super-strength) on a Guard, to at least knock him out, but it just bounced on him and didn't even move him (except just after, when he began to chase me)

I mean if I need level 2 augmented strength to lift this crate, he should feel it a little more when it hits him

Sense
7th Aug 2003, 15:52
I tried too. :D I also tried throwing a couch on the cleaner bot, the toilets, basically everything.

Does anyone know if DX2 will make it so the ground/walls actually are effected by explosions? I hear HL2 will have this... I hope Dx2 will have this, it could add a lot.

Catman
7th Aug 2003, 15:54
It still amazes me how the cats can walk through the burning barrels. :D

Trollslayer
7th Aug 2003, 16:13
Originally posted by Sense
I tried too. :D I also tried throwing a couch on the cleaner bot, the toilets, basically everything.

Does anyone know if DX2 will make it so the ground/walls actually are effected by explosions? I hear HL2 will have this... I hope Dx2 will have this, it could add a lot.

Unless its scripted, or done with some programmable, deformable model property to blow up on impact, i doubt it. If it used the Geomod technology of Red Faction, it just might, but since it doesn't...

operative x
7th Aug 2003, 19:32
The only way I would use any type of knife is if it looked like this (http://www.imperialweapons.com/knives/18rambo.html) and not some danm kitchen knife like in DX1.

Trollslayer
8th Aug 2003, 00:43
Originally posted by operative x
The only way I would use any type of knife is if it looked like this (http://www.imperialweapons.com/knives/18rambo.html) and not some danm kitchen knife like in DX1.

Actually, that one looks like the DX1 knife... with more curved angles, but pretty much the same.

Iveoles
9th Aug 2003, 23:54
You all keep saying about how unrealistic it would be to take out a guy in one hit. However it has been stated on the Official website that your augmentations will allow you to jump 40ft in the air and run faster then cars.

So I see no problem in hitting a secriuty guard 10ft in to the air with a well placed punch. Also it would be just cool, and that what people want, a cool game.

Myself, I can't wait to be able to jump 40ft traveling to damn fast for people to get a good shot at and whack them into the wall across the room.

Atleast that's my thoughts......

Dragosani
10th Aug 2003, 04:14
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
*EDIT* oh, and
I think the clavicule is the bone between your shoulder and the side of the neck. there is no bone in the nose, it's a carthilage. and you can also take someone down in one hit by punching him hard under the chin (ever saw a boxe match?)

The Clavicle is also known as your collar bone, if that helps.
There is a bone in the nose (nasal bone), though you are correct, the nose is mostly cartilage. And I believe it is possible to drive the nasal bone into the brain. Not really sure on that, but that's what I've heard.

Trollslayer
10th Aug 2003, 11:40
Originally posted by Iveoles
You all keep saying about how unrealistic it would be to take out a guy in one hit. However it has been stated on the Official website that your augmentations will allow you to jump 40ft in the air and run faster then cars.

So I see no problem in hitting a secriuty guard 10ft in to the air with a well placed punch. Also it would be just cool, and that what people want, a cool game.

Yes but "cool" doesn't always equal with "good" (though i guess this isn't easy to understand, given some of the overly naive and dream-like ideas strewn about the board). When "fans" ask for cool, they're not being objective, so they'll get a good game, first and foremost, wheter they like it or not.

The game, as much conspiracy theories, unrealistic events and flashy weapons it presents, still has to maintain a sense of credibility - punching a guard and seeing him fly 10ft into the air is more suited to an Asterix book than DX. Im not pro-punching, but i'd prefer regular punching to be used instead of something as naive as punching a guard and see him fly 10 ft upwards because its "cool".

Sense
13th Aug 2003, 21:25
Originally posted by Trollslayer
Unless its scripted, or done with some programmable, deformable model property to blow up on impact, i doubt it. If it used the Geomod technology of Red Faction, it just might, but since it doesn't...

Bah

Trollslayer
13th Aug 2003, 21:36
Originally posted by Sense
Bah

Bah what? :confused:

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
14th Aug 2003, 07:31
Originally posted by Trollslayer
Bah what? :confused:

maybe "bah, bah "
*gives some milk to Sense*

Merces Letifer
16th Aug 2003, 04:29
The ability to fight unarmed would add more depth to the game, IMO. The level in DX where you break out of the MJ12 prison, for example, could have made a little more interesting if you had only your bare hands instead of the baton and 10mm. However, I think unarmed combat should more stealth oriented. Rather than punching and kicking, Alex could go for pressure points and vital areas: cutting off blood flow, knocking the victim unconscious in a single blow, snapping the neck, breaking the nose bone and pushing it into the brain, strangulation, etc. All of which would require you to have the element of aurprise and possibly be behind the victim. Just my $0.02.

Loophole
20th Aug 2003, 16:02
How about a Nano palm strike, which causes a vibration that shatters internal organs rendering the victim dead at lower levels. At higher levels maybe it could be used at a distance. The character could find a shoalin training manual which might make the penny drop with regards to something in his training days with the blind old master of unarmed combat lessons, thus allowing advancement to a higher level of skill.
or
how about a strike which stops a person in there tracks, like in that crouching tiger hidden dragon film where the old lady stops the man in the courtyard fight, and all he can do is move his eyes.

I think either of those is alot more easier to explain away unlike how does j.c. Denton not have a hunch back like figure with a GEP gun, sniper rifle, rocket launcher, various small arms and a bottle of forty shoved under that jacket of his.
Thank you I am now spent.:cool:

Loophole
20th Aug 2003, 16:06
I think you get the idea from the subject.
Or maybe Grasping the Dragons pearls(think about it) for the purpose of interrigation.:cool: :cool:

papaw63p
13th Jun 2007, 12:03
I couldn't agree more. Most of my games have the "punch" feature, & I really do miss it in Deus Ex Invisible war.:nut:
papaw63p

luminar
19th Feb 2008, 18:19
i think that the majority of people against this idea are basically overeacting really badly. punching is a viable option. look at the baton it has no armor peircing abilities yet it was equally effective against armored enemies. besides jc is nanoaugmented giving him tremendous strength allowing him to pick up big heavy metal boxes. can you not see how if you were that strong you could do enough damage to kill a guy even though he has armor. another idea is you could have a skill called unarmed or hand to hand that would allow you at untrained levels to do basic damage to unarmored opponents. at higher levels you gain more damage and the ability to damage opponents with armor. this is just a really quick idea that needs a lot of development but done right it could be a very useful option.

drago148
25th Feb 2008, 06:06
mmm really good idea, but you can trow think on ennemis, its the same think :D

xhaan
14th Aug 2008, 04:19
Old post, but I'm bored and it's already been bumped a ton already, so...

The thing about adding something like punching to the game, is it can be one of two things: useful, or useless. (or game breaking as a possible third option, some times...)

If it is on par with melee weapons, then there is no need to carry a melee weapon (except maybe an electric prod or something)

If it is not as good as a melee weapon, then there will be no need to punch, unless the game somehow forces you to do so... which would require some tweaking and balancing to go from usable melee to somewhat less effective but still useable melee... and could be a lot of work considering all the other little details that have to be ironed out.

If people just want it as an 'option', whether it's worthless or not, that's fine. But some times there are bigger priorities to think about before thinking of whether you can punch or not.

Edit:
And think of it this way. I don't know about IW, but in DX1 you already have two swords, two blunt weapons, and an electric prod. Asking for punching is like asking for a slightly different new gun. There's plenty of options already and only room for so many (the game has to get released eventually, you can mod stuff in if you REALLY want it that bad)