View Full Version : Raziel and the wheel of souls(how many of him -are- there in these scenses?) ;p

27th Jun 2003, 20:23
I've seen a few refrences to the loop of raziel and his imprisonment in the soul reaver, but it doesn't have a thread yet. considering how mind spinning it all is (at least it was for me) I thought I'd make one.

Two things I don't understand:
Why was it just when he was about to be killed by the reavers that reality wavered and kain had the chance to change history and save Raz?
It seemed to me that this temporal flux or whatever only happened when Raziel's soul was in two places at once very close. I assumed it didn't happen to him all the time (like you might think it would considering he's always carting the soul reaver) cuz his wraith-blade-soul had become symbiotically bound to him, so somehow while bound to him they counted as only one soul. If this is true though, then as soon as the blade abandoned him, and twined around the soulless bloodreaver, the space distortion should have started immediately. One raz in his body, one on the sword. Yet Kain waited till the last possible moment to pull the blade out, urging raziel not to fight. unless he meant for Raz not to fight to keep the spirit blade bound to him...

But...then again when you first fight kain in SR1 there's no displacement....perhaps it's something about having two Raziel-souls in sword form? For that matter there was no displacement when you fight your sarifan self..and there's no less than 3 raziel souls in the room...If it was only in sword form the "coin edge" occured, maybe that would be why it was right before he slipped away kain could pull the sword out, when his soul was hovering in between, starting to be part of the blood reaver, which would make one pysical soul reaver and one wraith blade....that'd be tricky timing on kain's part. Heh, well I just thought up that last theory right now, and I guess it sorta changes the question. Guess now what I'm wondering is: Why is it only soul reaver duplicates that cause the distortion, as opposed to just duplicate versions of Raziel period?

Other thing....what was supposed to happen to the wraith blade after it and the blood reaver had killed raziel? I mean there were two of his souls there....one in his body, one twined around the blood reaver attempting to leech the soul from his body. Unless the blood reaver absorbs two souls (and since it loops over and over such a reaver would eventually have infinate souls) what happens to the extra soul?
So...if it had killed him it would have leeched his soul, been unable to devour it (as we know it is, since that's why the souled blade shattered over raz in SR1) and would then somehow leave his soul fresh-imprisoned in the blood reaver, dooming him to eternal imprisonment..? It seems to me It would -have- to be raziel's soul fresh from his body that ends up in the reaver....because if it dissapated we'd have paradox. There would be no link to raziel's body soul and his blade soul. But if it getsa sucked in to the blade, what happens to the wraith blade soul twined around the sword that killed him? Does it dissipate cuz the sword is full? Is that the ultimate end of raziel on this earth? After that his soul is free from the world?
In this quote he seems to believe that he's going to be cycling through this forever:

... the ravenous, soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade was - and always had been - me. This is why the blade was destroyed when Kain tried to strike me down - the Reaver could not devour its own soul. The paradox shattered the blade. So - this was my terrible destiny - to play out this purgatorial cycle for all eternity... I could not bear it - despair overwhelmed me.

If both versions of his soul are bound, like he seems to think will happen, every cycle a new version of himself would be added to the total.....we'd have a billion million raziels cramed in there...which doesn't sound too happy for space and time in general. o_O I suppose he could just be wrong about eternity. But....
again, that's as far as I've got, anyone else have a thought on this?

And a point:~~~~~~~~~~~
A ramification I only realised after playing SR2 the second time, is that if Raz's soul is the wraith blade, and it's symbiotically bound to him so much that they only count for one soul (explaining why there isn't any spacial warping through the whole series) then the possible overflow of knowledge impressions and emotions would explain a -lot- of the hunches Raziel tends to have. i.e.

"I sensed that in time my journey would return me full circle to this place. (sarifan stronghold)"
"I had never beheld them (pillars) in this undefiled state - yet something profound and indelible resonated within me at the sight. "
and especially this one:
"As Janos presented the blade, (blood reaver destined to be his eternal prison) an inexplicable sense of dread crept over me, more palpable than anything I'd felt before. " if you'd had your soul yanked from your body and speant a tourtured eternity imprisoned in a sword, wouldn't you have a tad bit of anxiety about the prospect of having it all happen again right in front of you? ;)

27th Jun 2003, 20:37
Well here's one theory:


I think there was another one like that and a few different ones if you use search.

27th Jun 2003, 22:57
whoops! thank you! I hadn't seen a large part of the archived threads and hadn't realised I'd missed them. More to look through! See how many of you allready said everything I did. ;)

28th Jun 2003, 08:55
The one commonality to all three of the history-changing events that we've seen (Kain killing William, Raziel sparing Kain, Kain saving Raziel... including the vertigo in William's tomb) are the presence of two incarnations of the Wraith blade, the 'soul' of the Reaver. Consider:

- When Kain killis William, both are armed (thanks to clever little Moebius) with the Soul Reaver.

- When Raziel first approaches William's tomb, he finds the broken Soul Reaver; and the wraith blade within draws on him to heal itself.

- When Raziel spares Kain, he has taken up the Soul Reaver again; thus he has the wraith blade bound to him, and the wraith blade within the Reaver.

- When Kain saves Raziel's life, he speaks of 'my soul hovering both within and without the Reaver blade' (paraphrase). Kain is waiting for that; perhaps it is the moment right before his soul is fused with the wraith blade anew? In any case, again, two wraith blades.

That, in any case, is the common element for all of the paradoxes/distortions. The others are very good questions... Vampmaster is right, there are several theories of this sort from last summer if you can find them! Happy searching! :D

(This one of mine may be helpful... here it is. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2131)

30th Jun 2003, 02:02
Thanks for the link! That thread was interesting and hilarious to read. ^_^ I still don't get though if there is theoretically infinate numbers of Raziel souls in the reaver if kain hadn't saved him...anyone have a notion on this?

30th Jun 2003, 02:42
Something actually just occurred to me when I was posting in a thread where a similar topic (the paradoxes) had come up again... two thoughts, actually, though only one was really significant in the other thread. (I'll mention both just so that people don't think I'm contradicting myself on the same night... ;))

One is that the two incarnations of the wraith blade present at that point merge into one. Since this would by logic be an infinte loop, then the effect is, I think, not so much that there are an infinte number of Raziel's soul... or maybe there are. But there is still just the one Wraith blade, and the effect of this repeated process is to make the blade itself essentially ageless. That could be an additional insight into the source of the paradoxes; because the blade would then be practically identical throughout history, there is a paradox when they meet because then you have two identical incarnations of the same thing, which isn't supposed to be. (And maybe the absorption is the wraith blade-entity's attempt to solve that problem: because there are suddenly two of itself in EXACTLY the same place, they just fuse.)

The other is that there can in fact only be one Wraith blade, at least as far as history and the Reaver are concerned. In that scenario, the fact that the wraith blade reappears when the Reaver goes after Raziel is irrelevant; the blade is just supposed to do that (perhaps with the aid of the wraith blade), and so with the creation of the new wraith blade from Raziel's soul, the old one (that is, the one Raziel brought with him) is effectively killed; it just dissipates into the ether or something. The reason why would be that, according to history, the Reaver must consume Raziel's soul in that time and place so that it is the Soul Reaver afterward. And then the Reaver is shattered upon Raziel, and the wraith blade binds to him. It is this that he carries back into time with him. That would be why the wraith blade could not 'reinhabit,' so to speak, the Reaver; because it is from the future, and the blade that housed it is no more. That would cause it to cease to exist, because the event that created it would not have happened. So Raziel's soul must go into the Reaver; and the Wraith blade just ceases to be at that point, bereft of a host.

That second one is much more confusing, so if it didn't make any sense I'll try to explain it in another way. It makes perfect sense in my mind, but finding the best way to describe it (without a helpful visual aid, anyway) is difficult. I'm not sure which one makes the most sense to me at the moment; I'll have to ponder it...

30th Jun 2003, 18:20
No, I understand, I think I was toying with two simmilar explinations in my first post....well Raziel seems to think the first way is the way it's gonna be, when he says

"So - this was my terrible destiny - to play out this purgatorial cycle for all eternity.. "

and though I know they've said what the characters conclude is far from written in stone, like I said in the first post, I do think Raziel is picking up some vague wisps of emotions and memories from the wraith blade version of his soul throughout SR2, specially that feeling of dread at the end. -It- knows what's gonna happen. So, if he thinks he's gonna be doing it for all eternity that could have been one of the desparing memories he picked up from the reaver.