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Fifer
8th Jun 2003, 15:23
I apologize if this has been discussed before, but I doubt I could find it by searching:

There's a couple things that have been bugging me since I completed Soul Reaver 2 many months ago. First, I'm going to number some items/events in case I need to refer to the later:

1. I replayed the videos from Blood Omen and got to the scene where Vorador kills several of the Circle and Malek gets there too late. I noticed that Vorador is carrying what looks like the Soul Reaver.

2. In Soul Reaver, Kain breaks the physical Soul Reaver over Raziel's head and the soul trapped within it bonds with Raziel becoming his etheric blade.

3. Raziel near the beginning of Soul Reaver 2 finds William's broken Soul Reaver sword, and it is repaired by his etheric blade, which in turn, becomes more aggressive.

4. In Soul Reaver 2, we learn from Audron that the original Soul Reaver was actually meant to be a Blood Reaver used to empower vampires who weilded it. So something must have happenned to change to turn it into the Soul Reaver.

5. At the end of Soul Reaver 2, Raziel is at the same castle at the same time as the events in #1 above. In the room with Raziel is the Blood Reaver stolen from Audron, while Vorador has one also in #1 above. After Raziel is done killing, his etheric blade mergers with the Blood Reaver and turns on him, trying to absorb his soul which reveals to us the soul trapped in the Reaver broken over Raziel's head in #2 above was his own soul-absorbing soul trapped in the Reaver which is what turned the Blood Reaver to the Soul Reaver.

So here's the questions: why were there two Soul Reavers at that time?

And, if events had played out as history originally ordained (Kain had allowed Raziel to be absorbed), wouldn't there have been TWO of Raziel's souls within the blade (his etheric blade which is a twin of his soul and his present soul)?

And I wonder if the Reaver that Kain has in Defiance will actually be the Blood Reaver since he stopped Raziel's soul from being absorbed, or if it will have PART of his soul (and still be a Soul Reaver) since Kain seemed to want Raziel to stay stuck on the sword for a little while.

Vampmaster
8th Jun 2003, 15:28
When there are two (or more) of them, one of them is from the future. The wraith blade on Raziels arm is also a future version of himself. So if he is destroyed, he can not later become the Soul Reaver. The one Vorador has is the bone sword. It's not the Soul Reaver, just a similar sword.

I think at the end of SR2, Kain had to allow Raz to get sucked just far enough into the Blood Reaver to make it the Soul Reaver for a split second:

Two SOUL Reavers are needed to allow history to be altered, but Raziel only had one. So Kain let Raz far enough into it to make the Blood Reaver into the Soul Reaver. Then because there were then two of them, Kain could change history and pull Raz back out of the Reaver making it the Blood Reaver again. Raziel still needs to get sucked in sooner or later.

There's more about this here:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16867

Fifer
8th Jun 2003, 16:13
I may not have fully understood your fist paragraph, Vampmaster, but what I was alluding to was:

If Kain had not saved Raziel from being absorbed fully into the Reaver blade (the Wraith Blade merged with the Blood Reaver), then in "Soul Reaver 1" when Kain breaks the sword over Raziel's head, wouldn't there have been two souls released from the blade (both of them a future copy of Raziel's soul: one the Wraith Blade from SR2 entwined with the Blood Reaver and Raziel himself from SR2)?

Edit: punctuation, and my head hurts from reading the thread you put in your post.

Matthew
8th Jun 2003, 16:38
There is only one Reaver.

In Nosgoth's early past the Ancient Winged Race forged the Reaver which they called the Blood Reaver and which was meant to devour the blood of its victims.

In SR2 Raziel was supposed to die and the Blood Reaver was supposed to consume his soul, thus becoming the Soul Reaver which the fledgling Kain would find during his first journey (BO-LOK) and strike Raziel down with it (LOK-SR).

When Kain struck Raziel in LOK-SR with the Soul Reaver, a paradox occured, because the Soul Reaver could not destroy itself (Raziel). Then the soul within (Raziel) was released from the Blood Reaver and the material blade was destroyed due to the paradox. Raziel then gained his own soul which coiled around his arm and became his symbiotic Wraith Blade.

In the past, Moebius the Time Streamer made sure that Kain and William the Just both had the Soul Reaver. William's was destroyed due to the paradox and thus, history could be rewritten.
The people put their beloved king's earthly remains into the Sarafan Keep, along with it his Soul Reaver.

When Raziel found William's tomb in SR2, he restored the Soul Reaver and thus the spirit within coiled around Raziel's arm again. As I see it, Raziel then kind of had 2 Wraith Blades around his arm. And thus, they become powerful enough to overcome their master and change into a parasitic weapon (that's why the Wraith Blade is so short and tightly around Raziel's arm in SR2).

Bah... Well, that's how I see it. If my perspective has some flaws to it, then, by all means, correct me.

As for Vorador's sword... that wasn't the Soul Reaver... as a matter of fact it had very little to do with the Reaver... It has earned the name of Bone Reaver here in the community... maybe they'll touch this matter in Defiance... we'll have to wait and see.

- Matthew

Kain's Ancient Blade
8th Jun 2003, 17:26
1. I replayed the videos from Blood Omen and got to the scene where Vorador kills several of the Circle and Malek gets there too late. I noticed that Vorador is carrying what looks like the Soul Reaver.

Fifer, that Blade that Vorador was carrying when he slaughtered the Circle members was not the Reaver. Hope that clears things up for you.


LOK series. My anti drug.

Fifer
9th Jun 2003, 03:01
The one Vorador has is the bone sword. It's not the Soul Reaver, just a similar sword.


As for Vorador's sword... that wasn't the Soul Reaver... as a matter of fact it had very little to do with the Reaver... It has earned the name of Bone Reaver here in the community... maybe they'll touch this matter in Defiance... we'll have to wait and see.


Fifer, that Blade that Vorador was carrying when he slaughtered the Circle members was not the Reaver. Hope that clears things up for you.

OK, I get it. Momma always said I was a little slow, but not that slow.

As far as the other part is concerned, I was just trying to figure out if there were suppossed to be two copies of Raz's soul released when Kain hit Raz in the noggin' (the wraith blade that turned on him and his own future self). Both would be present within the blade if Kain hadn't pulled it out of Raz, altering history.

Vampmaster
9th Jun 2003, 23:40
I'm assuming that at the end of SR2, the Blood Reaver was turned into the Soul Reaver just enough to allow history to be altered (saving Raziel) but Raz had not been drawn so far into the Blood Reaver that Kain couldn't seperate him from it making the (physical) Soul Reaver was turned back into the Blood Reaver. I'm assuming this because Kain has the Blood Reaver in Defiance.

As for whether there are two versions on Raziels soul in the Reaver, I don't think there would be. It wouldn't make sense to me. (Either they pile up meaning every time Raz takes it back in time another copy is added until there are an infinate number of them all intertwined or the Soul Reaver consumes it's own soul and it has already been said (by Raziel in SR2) that it can't do that.) That's just my opinion though. It'll probably be explained in Defiance.

NightChyld
10th Jun 2003, 01:17
I thought that there were Three souls that were Raziel. The first was the soul which was the unliving Raziel. Then, when the soul reaver was shattered over Raziel, it joined with him creating the Wraith Blade. That's two now. Then, the soul of the wraith blade and of the shattered blade combine. I always thought that what was ment to happen (in the altered timeline) was that one of the three souls would be consumed by the Blood Reaver creating the Soul Reaver. This would explain why when Raziel fades into the spectral realm, he still had a wraith blade. But I guess my theory is disproven now considering that Kain in LOKD will have the Blood Reaver. Am I making any scense?

PS. In Bo1, how do you suppose the reaver makes its way into that huge temple thing where you Kain gets it? And how did William the Just get the reaver?

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jun 2003, 01:30
The soul is the same, it is simply portioned. (Hence why it desperately tries to become one all the time).

**coughcoughparadoxcoughcough**

I personally believe Azimuth played an integral role in the Reaver making its way into Avernus Cathedral. Seeing how she is the other follower of Hash'ak'gik, and I believe closer to Moebius than previously thought.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Moebius himself managed to issue the Reaver to William. They were quite close during his short reign. (This aspect I hope to see in LOKD).

warpsavant
10th Jun 2003, 01:31
William got the Reaver from Moebius. No one knows exactly where Moebius got it.

No one knows who/how it got into Avernus Cathedral. It wasnt even really in Avernus, it was supposed to be Heaven. Avernus was just how you got there.

And I think there is only 1 soul in the Reaver, well, that and whatever the Ancients put in there in the first place.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jun 2003, 01:35
**coughcoughAzimuthcoughcough**

warpsavant
10th Jun 2003, 01:39
"Ah, what’s this? I had not even realized the blade and the raiment were here. You wear those trinkets well, Kain. But I do believe that they would look better on me."

Those are lady Azimuths words, I'm not even sure she knew they were there. Its hard to tell. It does appear she had something going on according to Ariel.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jun 2003, 01:49
Right, and Moebius tells the truth all the time. :rolleyes: :p