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Leo
2nd Jun 2003, 09:37
Who would like to have dual pistols? Meeeeeee

Why cannot I use two pistols? Cuz there is no such option or the superagent has his other hand full.

Well, I would like a secondary attack for pistol. The accuracy could be bad but hey, at least I will get to waste all those unused bullets I got while playing DX, I used shotgun more. Dual pistol gives the feeling of a movie star, cool feeling for cutscenes or sth.


And another thing. In my opinion the story should be based on the players will cuz it would make more fun. For example, if I choose to go to France to eliminate thread there back at USA or whichever place the game started chaos will only grow, time dependant reinforcement arrival, if you took too long to clear out France you could run into dozens of soldiers or robots :) and it would be as playing on hard. I find it cool, way more fun to think for a strategy. I guess some of you did not catch the thought.

Rhap
2nd Jun 2003, 16:24
I agree with you that would be fun, but I doubt its possible to implement that.

I'm impressed as is, with how the programmers give us several methods of completing the game. I.E. stealth or genocide.

The game, to me atleast, isn't linear in the slightest.

Oh, and as for wanting dual pistols; No thanks, I'll take my MOD'ed-out-the-arse GEP gun any day ;)

- Rhap

Catman
2nd Jun 2003, 16:37
Well, in Hitman, 47 can hold two pistols. Of course, it's a completely different game engine, but that does suggest it could be done for Deus Ex.

Maybe in III? :D

Leo
2nd Jun 2003, 16:50
Deus Ex 3 ? you have not seen the second part as you want the third, what if DX:IW turns out to be crap

_ _ _
The dual pistols is just a suggestion, maybe a patch could be released, ppl who like could use the chance.

sean74
2nd Jun 2003, 17:30
Dual Weapons
That was one of the great things about Max Payne.. god that was cool running around with Dual Uzi's shooting mo-fo's up like there's no tomorrow :)

Linear gameplay
DX1 was a mixture of linear gameplay with choices.. They do force the story along by giving you no choice on which city to go to, but they do allow you to take care of each map in your own way.

To totally make it non-linear they'd need to give you access to Jock and the helicopter any time you wanted, and let you go to any map you wanted at any given time. Though that would just be damned hard to work out in some cases. For example to make DX1 completely non-linear you'd have to have the ability to go straight from Liberty Island to Area 51. (beginning to final showdown)

The way many other RPGs handle this is basically this:

1. First time you play the game.. you just don't know where the final showdown is, which forces you to interact with NPCs to discover the story, and get clues on what your objectives should be and ultimately what and where the final objective is. This is the best choice to use (if you disregard replayability)

2. You wouldn't have yet reached the skill level to make your way there, and/or defeat the NPCs there even if you knew what those objectives are in advance. This is a good choice too.. it allows replayability and still allows full autonomy

3. One of the cheapest ways of preventing you from going to the final showdown.. basically just disallow you the choice of going there. To truly be a great RPG you should avoid this whenever possible. Unfortunately this is hard to avoid because in order to do this the characters must be very dynamic and be able to react to any of the choices you might have made prior to the time you've reached them. And really doesn't lend itself well to the game telling a story

Unfortunately if you want to make a game that has an intricate story with a good plot to it you need to take some of the control away from the person playing it.. Or be able to predict the choices people will make, and all the possible consequences of those choices and spend all your time accounting for them.

You're either telling a story, or letting a person do what they want, no matter how boring it might be. Deus Ex is great, because it found a great balance between the two.

Sparhawk
2nd Jun 2003, 18:59
maybe if a big group of fans would like, they could make it optional.... it don't really care, i don't use those guns hehe sniperrifle is pretty nifty i think :)
as for the lineairity in the game.. it's a necessity.... and it's hard to balance the freedom you give to the player and how much you push him in the direction you want... if they wouldn't push, you might not even get there hehe
With DX1 they did a great job, i trust them to do it again :)

NoNicknameForMe
2nd Jun 2003, 23:00
Didn't you play Fallout? Fallout 2? You could go and get power armor in Fallout 2, along with a chaingun or energy rifle as soon as you started. You'd only know where they where, however, after you had already beat the game, thus, making replaying the game a fun and less annoying experience.

WSimons
2nd Jun 2003, 23:26
I believe 2 silenced full-skill and upgraded sniper rifles would be the choice for me. Sniping guys while at the same time being able to knock out cameras and gun turrets, silently of course, would be awesome!!

NoNicknameForMe
3rd Jun 2003, 02:40
Um, thats the most retarded idea ever... two sniper rifles... what will they ask for next, rocket powered lay-z-boys?

sean74
3rd Jun 2003, 03:20
not sure how they'd work out the 2 sniper rifle thing.. :)

Also I don't see how it would be helpful. You typically use the sniper rifle with a scope for precision 1-shot 1-kill shooting. The point of dual pistols is cause it's less accurate and less deadly, so you'd want to go throwing as much lead at them as you can (spray 'n' pray)

TheDerf
3rd Jun 2003, 03:39
Dual pistols would be ok. I'd never use them though.

What I hope for is that they spend more time on the melee weapons and pick-up-able items and such. I'd love to pick up a vase and smash it against somebody's head. Whoo! That would make pretty much everything you can pick up a weapon. You could choke someone with a plant...

Leo
3rd Jun 2003, 12:02
What i mean with freedom:

Well, Jock could be blocked, so you could act in only one area at the beginning :)
You would have to earn Jocks trust in order to get transport, from there, if you choose to go directly to Area 51 .. well, I have to say: where is it? It is a secret base, you have to know where it is and then and only then you could go there [of course one could search for it but that would be stupid, the game would be too large in size]

Now, this is the interesting part: you get to choose where to go where you know something is going on. Since i understand there will not be any more Maderley like persons, ... byt hey, if you do have to follow orders, lots of things happe, what if you suddenly get lost from the rest of your group, what if you kill the group :)

that is what I call freedom, make your own rules or follow somebody, of course at the first attempt everybody would follow the directions but at the second run ....... yeehaw

DarkForge
3rd Jun 2003, 19:53
Originally posted by Catman
Well, in Hitman, 47 can hold two pistols. Of course, it's a completely different game engine, but that does suggest it could be done for Deus Ex.

Well, I don't actually know what engine is being used for DX2. But the first game was of course a modified "Unreal" engine game. And "Unreal Tournament" offered you dual pistols (or Enforcers, as they're called in UT). So it's definitely possible.

#37
4th Jun 2003, 00:55
If you use dual pistols, like Unreal, it seems implied that the game is becoming a traditional FPS. Many people on this board have already given the "wtf?!" response to any FPS-ization, and I agree.

Sure, it would be ok to have the option of the "guns blazing" approach, but Deus Ex wouldn't be the same if you took out an illegal power generator using atomic arrows.

That's probably because I'm partial to my complete-accuracy, laser'd/scoped, incredibly-large-clip stealth pistol.

WSimons
4th Jun 2003, 04:04
Originally posted by NoNicknameForMe
Um, thats the most retarded idea ever... two sniper rifles... what will they ask for next, rocket powered lay-z-boys?

Did I not explain why I wanted that? They are powerful as well as able to shoot from far away. Deadly from close, from far, and can destroy even cams and turrets.

Jock
4th Jun 2003, 05:07
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sean74
[b]Dual Weapons
That was one of the great things about Max Payne.. god that was cool running around with Dual Uzi's shooting mo-fo's up like there's no tomorrow :)



Yo, those were like Mac 10's. not uzi.

UZI
<img src="http://darkstar-sifi.co.uk/images/bbguns/aeg/thumbs/uzi.jpg">

Mac
<img src="http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Ingram%20MAC-10.jpg">

Learn the differneces.

TheDerf
4th Jun 2003, 05:18
(talkin to Mr. Simmons.)

That's not why we/they don't agree with your idea. It's not possible to effectively use two rifles simultaneously, so how would your sniper rifle idea work? Every gun is deadly up close and far, it's just the longer barrel that makes a rifle more accurate. If you say a rifle round can destroy a camera or a turret, well, smaller rounds can do the same. The basic differences between rifle rounds and small arms rounds is the sharpened tip, the size, and the charge, but anything moving at 900 feet per pound can destroy a camera... and I guess a "turret" too.

(referring to the previous post)

The guns in Max Payne were called "Ingrams". I thought that was retarded, just like the "Berettas". Both are the companies, rather than the models of the weapons. It's just like them putting "Dual Smith and Wessons" or "Dual Heckler and Kochs" in there.

...and I was going to point that out, you just beat me to it.:)

WSimons
4th Jun 2003, 06:17
TheDerf:

I am referring to the game when I say it can take out cams. When I play it, that's what I use to destroy security devices. Also, my name only has one "m," my name isn't Richard.

TheDerf
4th Jun 2003, 13:32
Alright then, but I think "Simmons" sounds better than "Simons". It was a typo anyway.

WSimons
4th Jun 2003, 21:34
It may sound better but Walton's name, in the game, has 1 "m."

NoNicknameForMe
4th Jun 2003, 22:49
Thats great Richard Simmons, but you wanted TWO count em, one, two. As in 2, dos, deux, duce, double, twice, a pair, of sniper rifles. That is retarded.

WSimons
4th Jun 2003, 23:44
What would you prefer then, a gay short-range weapon? Ooh maybe you'd like 2 knives?!

TheDerf
5th Jun 2003, 00:09
Now there's an idea!

Two knives... I wonder how Alex would hold those. Just that alone would make it enough for me to want it in the game.

I'd take that cattle prod (or whatever it was) over the sniper rifle. Even a taser I'd take over a sniper rifle. Have you ever played Syphon Filter? Wow. You can set people on fire with a few thousand volts of electricity, and have fun doing it.

Better than just two knives... two throwing knives! ...and! and! after they hit their target, they can have some kind of magnets inside of them that turn on and retract them to your belt so you'd never lose them. I'm a genius.

...and Mista Simmons, I already explained to you why two sniper rifles wouldn't work.

NoNicknameForMe
5th Jun 2003, 00:31
Wait, while your at it just make some super aug that lets Alex use one half of his brain for one rifle, along with corosponding eye, and the same for the other. With the other half obviously. You could just plug in two usb mouse's (whats the grammar for that?) and go to down, YEA!!1



And to anwser your question, knives are objects they do not have sexual orientations, dipshiste.

sean74
5th Jun 2003, 03:33
OK, i think I have richard simmons here figured out.

The sniper rifle is a bit more powerful than the pistols in the game and you can take down more targets with 1 shot using them.. so he's thinking 2 of em = better.

The problem is this, pistols can be wielded 1-handed, sniper rifle's cannot. Plus the barrel on a sniper rifle is too long, it's not a weapon you in all honesty should be using for Close Quarters Combat. despite the fact that you may have been using them in game that way.

To make it fair, they should just take the reticle off the sniper rifle altogether so you're forced to get the idea that if a target is so close that you don't want to use the scope to hit it with a sniper rifle, you should be using a pistol. Play "America's Army" that's the way they do it to prevent people running around with a sniper rifle shooting from the hip.. no reticle = yuck

I could imagine trying to wield a sniper rifle in each hand. You'd probably miss the broad side of a barn at 10 feet doin that, and you'd f-up your hand pretty good the first shot you took. While JC and Alex probably wouldn't mind the kick while holding a sniper rifle one-handed, I don't think they'd be much better aiming that way than most people would.

sean74
5th Jun 2003, 03:35
Originally posted by NoNicknameForMe
plug in two usb mouse's (whats the grammar for that?)

2 USB mice of course

Leo
5th Jun 2003, 18:56
2 sniper rifles in ur hands ... well, can u imagine the accuracy?

all you need is to have a sniper rifle that reloads faster, like, have a bigget fire rate, a weapon mod :)

Big Ragu
9th Jun 2003, 03:56
That's pretty far out there. I mean, two rifles, that wouldn't be accurate cause you wouldn't be able to aim. What, use 2 scopes? How about two GEP guns while you're at it?

NoNicknameForMe
9th Jun 2003, 20:52
A rocket powered lay-z-boy with two mounted GEP guns, infact.

sean74
9th Jun 2003, 22:00
Great game that was mac-only if I recall correctly.

You go through the entire game scooting around in an office chair, using office supplies as weapons. Don't think they had any rocket powered lazy-boys though.

http://download.com.com/3000-2275-878367.html?tag=lst-0-1

wallydog
9th Jun 2003, 23:11
The fact is a sniper rifle is a two handed weapon. Trying to shoot one in each hand would be possible just so inaccurate that it wouldn't be worth the time. You'ld be better off with two knives than two sniper rifles. At least you'ld hit the target. As far as shiney goes, I think I'll withhold judgement untill I actually play the game. If it is shiney as you so put it, maybe the gameplay will make you completely forget it. I'm just stoked that it's going to be here soon.

JoeTheBigFatHo
11th Jun 2003, 02:15
NoNicknameForMe and TheDerf, u two must be big fat poos to behave like that! Picking on poor W.SIMONS (ONE! ONE! ONE! buyonenowgetonefree ONE letter 'M'). He's probably just a kid, u have to excuse his ill thought-out use of the word 'gay' to describe knives - you backed him into a corner. (Unless he really has homo-hating issues, in which case he's obviously beyond defence).

But to have the audacity to criticise him for this after using the word "retarted" to describe his suggestion is bad! And then consciously and repeatedly calling him "Simmons" is just plain bullying... haven't you ever been bullied? Sucks. Anyhoo - I digress, don't be poos! He's probably run off now, afraid that nobody on this board likes him anymore... Well, Simons, I SALUTE YOU!

Oh, and two sniper rifles would never work. What a retarded idea, no I JEST! I JEST, I TELLS YOU - YOU MUTHA!! It is an 'un-pc' term and should be rationed accordingly.. but you have to admit it was kinda funny the way he wound u up with that suggestion! :)

Ps. If someone wants to play it, why not put it in? Obviously, it won't be in the game, but maybe a nice player, like W.Simons, could make a mod. Just make it totally unpractical in game-terms... but FUN! Oh, sorry W.Simons if you're not a kid, but, say, a 34 year old Russian accountant with a family and an overdraft. And NoNicknameForMe and TheDerf, neither of u are really poos, I would never go that far.. Sorry, I have shamed myself publicly.
:(

NoNicknameForMe
11th Jun 2003, 03:56
Jo... you are the most psychotic person i've ever met... that says alot.

sean74
11th Jun 2003, 05:47
JoeTheBigFatHo = http://www.dribbleglass.com/posters/a-i.jpg

JoeTheBigFatHo
11th Jun 2003, 10:00
Yo mofo, don't be misunderestimating me! :) Ah, go on, I'll take it as a nice thing, then! Don't want to feel like the only banana on the Planet of the Apes. Oh, r u lot yanks? Off topic, I know, but yo momma's off topic... No, really she is, your mother has nothing to do with this topic. Check out my thread in the community section if ur interested in hearing what I have 2 say. Or if u want to flame/bomb/laugh at me.

Don't feel like poos, u r not, u seem like really nice people! I was just illustrating, and this may make ME a poo, I don't know, that flaming W.Simons over his poorly thought-out idea and subsiquent attempt to right himself is a poo thing to do. If you want to flame anyone flame me! I won't take it seriously (it's only the cyberglob, dude!). I'll be in the community forum. Love u, but only as far as ur american dollar's will take u! XXXx

ps. that's the main community forum, not the deus ex one. nobody seems to go in there... as if dx players don't have an existence outside of the net... like the AIs that u r.

Leo
12th Jun 2003, 09:08
double weapons in ur hands ... an augmentation would do the trick, it is just that I am not sure what it could be. Maybe stronger arms, a targeting aug and some other stuff, but two sniper rifles, well, for futuristic tech it is not a problem, the rifle can acctually be modified to a smaller gun with the same or even "better" bulllets to teach somebody a leson a mile away, whatever, what I was talking about was two pistols, yeah, maybe swords knives and so on would increase fire rate, hmmm, nice :)

ikkyo
15th Jun 2003, 17:50
I'd just settle for a decent SMG, that bullpup thing in DX was a bit pap. Even after I'd wasted a bunch of upgrades on it :(


Except of course the 20mm HE rounds that made droid killing alot easier. Why not a secondary fire mode?

And why not a hand-to-hand option. I mean the dude is meant to be a super-soldier, I'd hope he was a bit handy. On second thoughts it would probably look a bit naff in an FPS wouldn't it?

Leo
16th Jun 2003, 08:35
if you look at weapons in DX what alternate attack can u add exactly?

ikkyo
16th Jun 2003, 18:55
When you put it like that, you might have a point :)

Ok thinking off the top of my head:

- Having the option to fire the SMG 7.62 rounds with the LMB and the 20mm HE rounds with the RMB

- Being able to build up the plasma gun (which really wasn't as cool as it should have been... Grrr) so youy can let an area effect round off.

Granted I'm stretching it a bit, but you see what I mean?

WSimons
16th Jun 2003, 21:11
Haven't any of you played Goldeneye for N64? I believe in that game you can have 2 sniper rifles and I think it works pretty well.

sean74
16th Jun 2003, 23:56
you're still going on about two sniper rifles?


Please give us a detailed explanation of how it works in Golden Eye on the N64 that seems like it's a good idea to you.

Sniper rifles are about a meter long and a bit bulky, they also aren't all that easy to aim, unless you use the scope, which I don't see you doing for 2 sniper rifles simultaneously. :)

Joshman2105
17th Jun 2003, 00:40
2 sniper rifles didnt work very well in Goldeneye if i remeber correctly, but most weapons in DX:IW are supposed to have an alternate fire mode, but dual pistols would be a welcome site

Leo
17th Jun 2003, 05:23
well, kinda sounds like playing Unreal Tournament or something, like, every weapon has a secondary attack ... I dunno, maybe they should play Soldier of Fortune Double Helix [the only SOF I played :) ] and pick some ideas there, cuz some weapons did have some nice secodaries, like, slammin with a pistol to make a silent takedown, but the target is still alive, so u had to take out a knife and .. well, the only knife John Mullins had was also throwable, not seprated knives like in DX.

I do not know exactly, some secondaries would be useful for fast accessing, even if it is not really an attack.

-one secondary I 100% recomend they add is: stick a LAM to a wall, walk away, press button to detonate it at any time. If u say u would use a GEP gun instead, how can u maneuver the rocket round a corner.

Maneuver rocket round the corner, yeah, it can be done. If DX:IW development team is using Unreal engine, did they play the game [Unreal Tournament] too? Well, if they did, then for fun a GEP gun can have a secondary as the Redeemer, u can actually pilot the fired rocket, the camera is on top of the missile, u can fly it aroung, scout a bit, and detonate it at any time too ... this would be useful.

TheDerf
17th Jun 2003, 05:45
Goldeneye was a great game, but it wasn't designed for realism and style like Deus Ex.

Anyway, back to my idea.

So I say that there should be dual throwing knives rather than dual pistols or *cough* sniper rifles *cough*. They'll have magnets in them that turn on after they hit their target so they always come back to you. Wow.

Leo
17th Jun 2003, 05:56
man, I can complete DX without throwing a knife. Why such obsession? think they will add enormous damage?

Joshman2105
17th Jun 2003, 15:09
Knives, which werent huge in DX1 should be looked at definitely, but as for the lam with the seperate trigger i read somewhere that was in the game, i think it was from Extended Play.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
17th Jun 2003, 15:43
do you think it would be too much to ask for a tetra-GEPMod? if you are seated, you could use two with your hands and two with your feet, all it would require would be a strength/accuracy mod (and a chair)

Joshman2105
17th Jun 2003, 16:06
Umm...no, what fun is sitting in a chair and blowing up everything that passes you, i think 2 GEP guns are ridiculous, but 4????:confused:

TheDerf
17th Jun 2003, 18:06
Aw cmon people.

Magnetic throwing knives would be perfect. These knives would always give Alex a weapon so he'd never have to go bare-handed. The idea is better than a gun with infinite ammo that Alex carries. Plus, the knives were an underated stealth weapon in Deus Ex, and with my idea, throwing knives would be cooler than ever.

WSimons
18th Jun 2003, 07:26
Yeah but the person throwing them better know how to catch them too!

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
18th Jun 2003, 08:08
I wasn't completely serious, joshman2105. it's just that the Idea of 2 GEP semmed funny to me. Why not a SMGEP? or an AutoGEP, wit a fire rate of 20Rnd/s?

(btw, they did that in Quake 3, on certain servers)

Joshman2105
19th Jun 2003, 01:49
yea well ur form paris so i will rip on a french person any chance i get, and thank god DX isnt Quake

NoNicknameForMe
19th Jun 2003, 05:13
There are throwing knives in DX.

WSimons
19th Jun 2003, 06:31
But they weren't magnetic.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
19th Jun 2003, 07:45
hum hum

Ok, you could be mistaken, since I forgot to Put my signature under my post

I don't play Quake III, and YES Thanks god DX isn't Quake

the idea of an automatic grenade launcher wasn't serious either (why not a nuclear ballistic missile launcher?)

this time I won't forget

NoNicknameForMe
19th Jun 2003, 09:07
Originally posted by WSimons
But they weren't magnetic.


They were... um....






goodnight....

TheDerf
19th Jun 2003, 10:26
They were really cool, and I'd love to use them more (in DX2) if they included them.

Something else that would be really cool... If there was some anti-magnetic field you could turn on around you while you turned on the magnet in the knife, and the knife would basically seek the metal in the area. Anyone packing would get stabbed in the groin.

I guess that wouldn't work in a big city area for obvious reasons, but it could work in a park... or a park.

Leo
19th Jun 2003, 12:53
maybe u have been playing too much of Soldier of Fortune 2 Double Helix .. throwing knives can be picked up from the body ... in DX it is not possible, I dunno, maybe some other game

TheDerf
19th Jun 2003, 17:12
SOF2 was a great game for relieving tension, and I don't say that because it has sexual content, because it doesn't.

What's the point of throwing a knife and later picking it off of a body? If you're later gonna approach the person (or the person's corpse) anyway, why not just run up and stab him? My throwing knife idea would let the player take out an enemy and stay within cover, allowing you to further play the game all stealthy-like.

Then you'd have your different types of knives. You get your poison-tipped, your (timed? remote detonated?) knives, your electrical surge thingy magiger knives... I'd buy any shooter if they had this.

sean74
19th Jun 2003, 17:18
Originally posted by TheDerf

What's the point of throwing a knife and later picking it off of a body? If you're later gonna approach the person (or the person's corpse) anyway, why not just run up and stab him? My throwing knife idea would let the player take out an enemy and stay within cover, allowing you to further play the game all stealthy-like.

well the point would be it's more realistic.. if you just happened to walk up near a body you took out with a throwing knife it'd be nice to be able to pick it back up.

Though I can't say that I ever even tried to use a knife in DX1, throwing or otherwise. Though I did turn into Luke Skywalker with that Light-Saber *cough* I mean Dragon Tooth Sword :)

Leo
19th Jun 2003, 17:22
I have a question to the knife-man: do u use weapons!?

Joshman2105
19th Jun 2003, 17:49
i think the "light saber" was a great weapon, now knives i used once to kill someone i pepper sprayed

sean74
19th Jun 2003, 17:52
my favorite weapon: Fire Extinguishers. I always kept 2 or 3 of them in my inventory..
1. they'll put you out if you're on fire :)
2. they work better than that pepper spray
3. i think if i recall corectly they had longer range than the pepper spray also

TheDerf
19th Jun 2003, 18:12
Originally posted by Leo
I have a question to the knife-man: do u use weapons!?

I try not to. If I do use weapons, they'll be melee. Once in a long while though, I'll need to use a GEP gun or the sniper rifle.


well the point would be it's more realistic.. if you just happened to walk up near a body you took out with a throwing knife it'd be nice to be able to pick it back up.

You wouldn't have to. There's little frickin magnets in my knives that turn on and retract them to your belt after they've hit.

Cmon, someone has to agree with me. Are these not cool futuristic weapons?

Leo
19th Jun 2003, 18:20
ok, I agree with u in the way that DX:IW should have many weapons

so anyway, what do u think bout my idea: dual pistols?

TheDerf
19th Jun 2003, 18:41
Sure, they'd be great, but I would only use them on my second time through when I'm experimenting. I prefer stealth and taking my time to do things. Metal Gear Solid is a great series for that sort of thing.

You know what, yes. I would love dual pistols. Two would be good for close quarterers combat when you got the ammo.

terrymx
19th Jun 2003, 19:00
i dont mind the double pistol idea, but i wouldnt use it. i tried it on sof2, and it give terrible aiming. i really like the jungle stage, after that it got boring.

the only two guns weapon i use constantly in dues ex are the pistol and the sniper. otherwise i use grenade, the electric riot rod, and ofcourse, the dragon blade. i use submachine guns sometime to save bullets for other weapons. i like the game to be as much 'thief' as possible.

i need to upgrade my gf2 somehow if i want to play this and doom3. :(

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
20th Jun 2003, 07:30
Originally posted by TheDerf
Cmon, someone has to agree with me. Are these not cool futuristic weapons? [/B]

I don't think small magnet could have a very long range, and if they have this would create a magnetic field when on your belt that could be damaging for any electronic equipment you may have in your inventory

TheDerf
20th Jun 2003, 17:36
It's 62 years into the future. Anything is possible.

NoNicknameForMe
20th Jun 2003, 23:09
In your inventory, YOUR WHOLE BODY IS A COMPUTER... breathe breathe, sorry pet peve of mine is people forgetting that Alex and JC and Paul all use electrical energy, and the nano augs are controlled with electronics... so an emp would fubar them.

TheDerf
21st Jun 2003, 01:24
Hey foo. I don't want your lesson in physics of the year 2065 unless you're Miss Cleo.

...

NoNicknameForMe
21st Jun 2003, 01:40
If anything nanotechnology will be even MORE sensitive to emp disturbances than current tech. And you just can't insulate from something like magnetics or gravity...

Joshman2105
21st Jun 2003, 02:36
magnetic throwing knives would probably jsut plain out ot work, but being able to pik them from a corpse would be cool and alot less complicated, plus what happens when the knive falls a bit below your belt :eek:

TheDerf
21st Jun 2003, 03:41
:eek:

Leo
21st Jun 2003, 07:05
if u have been briefed on physics in year 2065 then tell me:

1) will the EMP tech advance and have a big damage effect

OR

2) Alex is going to be weaker

does not make big sense, Alex is JC's clone, if u know the answer, u must know how DX:IW's story is going ot be. or am I wrong?

sean74
23rd Jun 2003, 03:39
this whole debate seems odd to begin with. The whole purpose behind the throwing knife is for a silent-but-lethal takedown. Why not just have a perfectly silent weapon? I think the logistics of firing a round silently would be much easier to work out than trying to figure out how to get a knife to return to you :p

Ever see one of those physics shows where they hook a car battery up to a coil? You put a piece of metal inside that coil and when you energize it it will propel the piece of metal completely silently (although at today's current tech level it's not going at anywhere near lethal speeds)

TheDerf
23rd Jun 2003, 04:53
Why not make every weapon in the game silenced? Why not have this universal ammo idea include one hit kills with every shot? Here's an idea; include a deluxe cd/radio player with every gun so you can listen to your favorite tune as you masacre someone.

The purpose of my throwing knives is to add class and style to an already great concept. Has anyone here ever seen Desperado? That one guy with the knives was bad*ss. The people shooting at him have guns, a bullet proof car, and a snow cone maker, but that guy with the knives takes em on and goes out like a man. Who wouldn't want to throw knives at someone? Don't get me wrong, shooting them is also fun, but it can get boring.

Uncle Ben's Rocket
23rd Jun 2003, 06:47
I c where thederfs getting @. Like a set of weapons that you can take into the shower to listen to your tunes. Sharper image style.

There should be real weapons in DX anyways. THe whole issue of this ammo type and this type of gun would be a nonissue. HL2 is already sporting HK's future line of guns. Why not be realistic.


That one guy with the knives was bad*ss
yeah he was cool. But he was killed in the only scene he had in the movie.

TheDerf
23rd Jun 2003, 08:00
Well fifty years into the future, when there's all these technological advantages floating around, would you still want to use the same weapons we did fifty years back? Maybe the design of a typical assult rifle was changed for good reasons. Maybe there's a greater need for GEP gun-like weapons to deal with the combat robot population.

They should've taken out the flamethrower and the plasma rifle. That flamethrower concept died back in Nam, and the plasma rifle is to me, a little too far of a step into the future.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Jun 2003, 09:15
I want a railgun!!

(do you think I could ask to drive a Tank?)

andyland
23rd Jun 2003, 09:34
I Recon that 2 pistals would be sick

And also I think that you should be able to kick and punch for when you run out of ammo or a annoying bisnessman who's geting in the way.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Jun 2003, 11:37
yes punching would be great (although you can always use the crowbar, I would have liked to fight bare-handed)

and why not a gauntlet, or a chainsaw?

Leo
23rd Jun 2003, 14:45
so u want to say that just because that man is a bad*ss u must add throwing knives to DX:IW?
a sick idea, why do we need weapons in DX:IW? just to run around with knives, sure, if u can pick 'em up, let it be so, but magnetic knives, ooh man, gees.
was crossbow not enough?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Jun 2003, 14:55
I have a question, how will they manage to have the same ammos for the shotgun and the crossbow?

Leo
23rd Jun 2003, 15:08
simple, there will be no crossbow and/or shotgun

Catman
23rd Jun 2003, 15:11
It would be funny if there were: You shoot a shootgun shell at some bad guy with your crossbow, and he picks up the shell, loads it into his shotgun, and blows you away.

:D

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
23rd Jun 2003, 15:16
what do you do when a french soldier throws a grenade at you?

(you pull the pin and send it back to him)

what do you do when he throws a pin at you?

(you run, he has a grenade between the teeth)

TheDerf
23rd Jun 2003, 17:43
Andyland mentioned punching a little bit earlier, and that idea is fine. What I had in mind though, to replace punching (which would be your last resort) with knives that come back to you after you throw them. So you'll never need to go and punch someone because you have a better last resort weapon.

Not only was that guy in Desperado great, but yellow is the color of cheese.

I thought that the crossbow was a good weapon (I used it all throughout the first two "stages"), but it can't be used like my shanks due to the ammo factor.


what do you do when a french soldier throws a grenade at you?

what do you do when he throws a pin at you?

Those are blonde jokes.:p

Leo
23rd Jun 2003, 18:46
I didn't use throwing knives in DX but killed persons scream before they die [at least using a gun] so how can u talk bout silent takedown? Anyway, puncing is something for other games.
A crossbow and prod knock target unconcious which is the MOST silent takedown, no one can hear it, just see it happen ... this is the way most terrorists saw me when I used cloak aug. (edit some spelling)

Trollslayer
23rd Jun 2003, 19:19
I'm sorry if this opinion has already been mentioned in the thread (i'm at work and have little time to read trough it all).

I agree that Dual Pistols is possible in Deus Ex, for no other reason that, at its core, its an FPS. In an FPS, for the most of them out there, you get the chance of dual-wielding 2 equal weapons (in a tolerable fashion of course; 2 Sniper Rifles is cumbersome and impracticable in many cases). Deus Ex, giving you the possibility to go stealth or go balistic, should give that choice. However...

Dual-wielding two pistols isn't exactly practical in many cases. The average person has a dominant right hand, and if using a pistol in the left hand, while in a firefight, they'd have to be good at it - a problem uncovered by many FPSs out there. Hey, i don't play games for realism, i play them for fun, but its undeniable realism in games add nice touches and fun gameplay elements - that said, wielding a gun in each hand in an ordinary FPS feels cheap - basically because you're always pointing to the same side, and you feel the character is a combat machine, since he doesn't even shake his left hand, or misses, and has the hands at the same level. And including this kind of cheapness in DX2 wouldn't be very good.

Not mentioning you'd have to drop it or holster it to do other actions. I'd *hate* to be in a firefight in DX2, with dual pistols, and having to cycle trough weapon modes to unequip them because opening a door, or handling a keypad would require a free hand o_O

While i think the option should be available due to its FPSistic nature, i also think it should be thought of due to plausibility reasons in some cases.

Leo
23rd Jun 2003, 20:03
*sad* u didn't cover the player freedom *sad*

but whatever, two pistols are just an alternate attack of pistol, u don't have to use both guns if u don't like. It just gives u awesome feeling, one shot at a time, not like in TR1-5. Left hand can be controlled by an aug [accuracy bio-mod], as u said, it is possible in such a futuristic game as DX:IW

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
24th Jun 2003, 07:40
Those are blonde jokes.

Didn't know, I'm french

sean74
24th Jun 2003, 14:44
Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
Didn't know, I'm french

I wouldn't worry about it. I imagine they were probably french jokes first. Though blonds using a grenade are almost as ludicrous as a frenchman with a grenade :)

WSimons
26th Jun 2003, 22:22
At least blondes know how to talk correctly!! (I don't mean that literally, but French sounds nothing like how it looks)

Big Ragu
26th Jun 2003, 23:45
The point is that dual pistols are impractical. They are only for die hard action games like Max Payne, Deus Ex isn't a die hard action game.

And I know what your gonna say, "the player should get to chose what he does." If that's the case, why couldn't I stay with UNATCO. So what if there the "bad guys", I might wanna paly a bad guy. THAT should have been an alternate ending.

Serephin11
27th Jun 2003, 02:19
hi guys

The throwing knives, I never really used them, cause when I did, it was against a commando(then I was dodging rockets like there was no tommorrow). And dual pistols I dunno, alex is some super human, special agent right? Wouldn't it suite him to use one pistol (accuracy over rate of fire). Well then again, like I said he is super human so accuracy wouldnt be a problem.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
30th Jun 2003, 16:17
Originally posted by WSimons
At least blondes know how to talk correctly!! (I don't mean that literally, but French sounds nothing like how it looks)

errr? does English REALLY sound like it looks?

An English friend sent me this: How do you pronounce "ghoti"?

gh like in "enough"
o like in women
ti like in "attention"

total : fish

WSimons
30th Jun 2003, 19:06
I don't even want to try to pronounce your user name!

crimson_stallion
10th Jul 2003, 09:44
In sam and max you had a map. You could go to any item on that map, but until you got information in the game about where abouts the item was, it did not appear ont he map, thus you could not go there. Once you got the place on the map, you could go to any one of those places anytime. I think that was a pretty good system.

As for dual pistols.. i dont know. To me the dual pistols thing is too much a hollywood thing. Deus ex is more of a realistic (even though its set in the future) rpg/fps/action/adventure game. I dont think many people can fire two pistols even remotely accurately. Firstly, i think firing a pistol with one hand would be very innacurate. The fact taht you have another in your off hand (i.e. left hand if you are right handed) would make it even worse. I think the whole twin pistolt hing is better left to games like unreal, doom, possibly half-life, i.e. the no brainer shooters. In deus ex, whod use twin pistols if they take up double you inventory, are terribly accurate, and you have an assault rifle handy..

WaynePleasant
13th Jul 2003, 01:48
One: JC and Alex (that's his clone, right?) are not quite superhuman. They are not perfect. Carrying two pistols the size of the stealth pistol would require a lot of concentration, discipline, and training. While the two Agents are enhanced, they still must follow the same rules of physics we do. Now, if the agents were equipped with two small caliber relvolvers or perhaps caseless munition pistols, it might be more feasible. Shorter barrels would be better for the accuracy of the guns, too. All needless weight must be eliminated. Even with this, the accuracy of the guns would be terrible at further than a few paces. I suggest the developers at Eidos ask firearm production companies about this, or at least someone with some expertise with firearms, if they wish to implement the double weapon feature. Overall, I think it would be a bad decision, as it would take away from the realism of the game.

Two: I have noticed the terrible spelling and grammatical errors of many posts in the forum. It would be a nice, polite gesture to your fellow gamers to make your posts as legible as possible. Just read your posts after finishing, and correct your errors before you send in said post.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
15th Jul 2003, 14:44
just one question :

did one of you ever try to play games like Time crisis II or Vampire nights (on PS2), with one gun in each hand?

even without recoil, you're far less accurate, and fire rate doesn't help enough

so I don't think dual-pistol could be realistic, or it wouldn't be accurate enough to be useful. (except maybe in a corridor, with metal walls)

TheDerf
15th Jul 2003, 17:37
Well the case is whether or not dual pistols belong in the game. How inaccurate it would be, how practical, how realistic; all factors that don't even matter. That stuff can be dealt with by the fact that the game takes place in the future.

Deus Ex is a shooter. - You shoot things. - You shoot things with a wide variety of weapons.

So do dual pistols belong in the game because of this? Is Deus Ex not that kind of a game? Well isn't Deus Ex a game designed to appreciate reality? What's reality without freedom?

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
16th Jul 2003, 07:42
Well isn't Deus Ex a game designed to appreciate reality? What's reality without freedom?

hmmm

in that case you should also be able to try double-GEP, or anything stupid I suggested.

And reality ISN'T Hollywood, the fact that characters in John Woo's film can shoot dual pistols, 12 shots in a second in the middle of a target doesn't mean it's real. I don't know if REAL people REALLY use dual pistols (except, like I said, in films or videogames)

crimson_stallion
16th Jul 2003, 12:22
Originally posted by TheDerf
Well the case is whether or not dual pistols belong in the game. How inaccurate it would be, how practical, how realistic; all factors that don't even matter. That stuff can be dealt with by the fact that the game takes place in the future.

Deus Ex is a shooter. - You shoot things. - You shoot things with a wide variety of weapons.

So do dual pistols belong in the game because of this? Is Deus Ex not that kind of a game? Well isn't Deus Ex a game designed to appreciate reality? What's reality without freedom?

You're contradictign yourself abit there arent you? First you said that it doesnt matter if it is innacurate, impractical or unrealistic, then you said the game is designed to appreciate reality.

You say "What's reality without freedom?". Can you fly(without help)? Can you walk on water? Can you eat a 10 foot boulder? Can you lift a building? The real world is free, but there are still limits to what can and cannot be done. It's called physics.

You say it doesnt matter because its the future. Son, I can all but assure you the worlds physics will NOT change anytime soon. In the 50's shows were like "woww its the year 2000, we are all flying around in ships in space and searching for aliens, while firign out lasers". It's the year 2003. Where are the civilian transport ships? Where are the laster pistols and photon cannons?

The world does not change that fast. In 10 years time, we will probably have oddish looking cars, damn fast computers, weird architechture, etc, but the laws of physics will still be here, and I dont think people will be runnign around with twin pistols. Besides, why would you when a compact SMG (such as an MP-5-PDW) is not THAT much bigger, fires at a faster rate, holds more ammo, is more accurate, is easier to control, and the list goes on. Could a person with dual pistols fire at a fate of 650 rounds mer minute? Unless the pistols are fuly automatic, i doubt it. Why do you think real officers dont run around with two pistols (or army).

Deus ex IS a shooter, but it is intended to be based strongly on a reality (of a fictional world). The realitve realism and debth is what made the game so great, and different. If we start bringing in double pistols and things liek this, we will be bringing it closer and closer to anohter dull and realtively boring FPS. The "shoot anything that moves" type. If you want to use double pistols, buy some game that has them, because in deus ex they wouldhave no purpose but "for fun". They would be useless tactically. Everyone would use them for an hour or so, realise they are useless, and never use them again. No point in somethign that is there merely to look good or 'cool'. Alex denton is an agent, not a TV cop !

TheDerf
16th Jul 2003, 13:27
Well the case is whether or not dual pistols belong in the game. How inaccurate it would be, how practical, how realistic; all factors that don't even matter. That stuff can be dealt with by the fact that the game takes place in the future.

Deus Ex is a shooter. - You shoot things. - You shoot things with a wide variety of weapons.

So do dual pistols belong in the game because of this? Is Deus Ex not that kind of a game? Well isn't Deus Ex a game designed to appreciate reality? What's reality without freedom?

I made that post to try and redirect your thought processes. The four questions at the end were just things you should be thinking about when you reply.

World physics will not change. True, I never said they would. So when my augmented JC jumps 50 feet into the air from a standing position, I'm suposed to believe that's normal? In a time where something like that is possible, why is it so far-fetched that a person could be stunningly accurate when firing dual pistols? Then when a person can achieve this accuracy by means of practice or augmentation, it can be practical to carry with you and use in combat, two pistols.

General George Patton Jr. ran around with two pistols. Of course, one of those pistols was not issued to him.

Wilder
16th Jul 2003, 13:36
I don't know if any of you have fired a pistol, but if you have you will find that it is impossible to use dual pistols for several reasons. One: you can't aim. You can only actually aim one pistol (you only have one eye capable of aiming, and you're eyes don't move independently). This means that the second pistol would be shot with you're off hand and from the hip. You would have better luck beating someone with it. Second: especially on you off hand the kickback from any remotly powerfull pistol would throw you off aim if you tryed to use is one handed. As for the idiot who wants double snipers, go die. Unless you had one eye ripped out of your skull so that it would be dominate and swiveled independantly, had a small processing computer installed into you're brain so that you could simultaneosly aim both guns while calculating wind resistance and where the scope lines up with the bullets tragetories (please note for those of you who have never used a weapon w/ a scope: you do not line the little x up with the target. The scope intersects the bullet tragectory {bullets do not fly straight, they curve} at a certain distance and you aim up or down pased on bullet path and distance), and had superhuman strenghth to hold the recoil you can forget using two sinper rifles. It's also pointless because from a players point of view it would be easier to only have one (Your eyes don't move independantly so you could only focus on one scope at a time) rifle and just swivel from target to target. True, you could have this mass head surgery and walk out looking like Gunther from DE:tC, but I personally would rather use my happy nano-augs to outrun cars and get leech drones than to be able to use two pistols.

TheDerf
16th Jul 2003, 13:58
It might help to read a few of the posts more carefully before you reply. You basically repeated what 50 people have already said.

I go shooting all the time. It is very hard to hit something when simultaneously firing two pistols, but that's just me and probably everyone else who isn't nano-augmented like JC.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
16th Jul 2003, 14:38
that's why a dual GEP-gun would be better!

since a GEP gun fires homing rockets, you can fire both, no aiming problem

and since you are nano augmented, no recoil problem, as long as you weight 500 pounds

(please check signature before flaming. I don't take a chance this time)

Serephin11
18th Jul 2003, 01:00
Like the Derf said it is extremely hard to aim with two pistols. I've fired a .44 Magnum and that thing nearly took my hand off from the kick back. Perhaps there is a chance to use dual pistols with relative ease, using a pistol would require you to be close to your target say 50 meters, then with dual .22 calibre pistols this 'could' be done. I realise that a .22 calibre has next to now power in a pistol but it could be possible to weild two of them and becuase you are using two pistols from 50 meters away, so accuracy wont really matter because you have two. But suffice to say dual .22 pistols or any other calibre would be highly inpractical, gimme an SMG anyday.

crimson_stallion
18th Jul 2003, 10:40
Back to my other point made. Even if alex could fire two piustols relatively accurately (being 'superhuman' and all) it all comes back to my main point: what is the point?

Unless you have one of the few fully automatic pistols (HAHA try firing two of THOSE accurately) you would have no purpose in having two pistols.

As I said, an MP5k will be not a great deal larger or heavier, would be a hell of alot more accurate, and would fire at a faster rate. In addition, it is availiable with the internal suppressor (i.e. the MP5 SD) which is more effective then the 'bolt on' supressor you would get on pistols. As I said, even if a superhuman alex could use two pistols, the guy with the MP5 will kill him in a heartbeat. So again, why? Like i said, only reason woudl be for 'fun'. And again, like i said before, people would use it for an hour max, realise its a bad option, and give upon it. The accuracy would have to be reduced for weapon balancing reasons (so as to not make it too powerful) and thus again an SMG would e infinately more useful (as would probably a single pistol.

Please answer me this: In a GAME, what advantage would dual pistols have over an SMG or assault rifle, aside from looking cool? If you can give me a good answer for that (aside from taking up less space, because an MP5K wil most likely take up LESS space then two pistols), then I will accept the idea..

All comes down to function over form.

TheDerf
18th Jul 2003, 22:39
In Deus Ex 2, the chances are that Alex will not be charging down mounted machine guns on a beach with 10,000 fellow soldiers and therefore would not need a rifle. When I'm playing Deus Ex, Alex will not kick open the front door and go Rambo on anyone inside and therefore would not need a sub-machine gun. Alex will probably spend a lot of time around civilians, so he'd need a weapon that wouldn't bulge out of his coat when he walked or pinch his crotch when he sits.

I like to play my game professionally, sneaking around with as little casualties as possible. When I do have to kill or render someone unconcious, I won't be 200 feet away with my MP5. I'll be anywhere from 50 feet or less away from him when I fire. In that situation, a sub-machine gun is overkill, but hey! If you like to slaughter your victim, go for it.

Now read my other posts carefully. I never said that I was in favor of dual pistols, but I don't like the idea of Alex walking around in public with an assault weapon. I like the traditional sidearm because it fits the way I do things. Rather than rushing through the front door and having a two minute fire fight, I'll sneak in the back way. Now you can play like me and bring your MP5, but like I said, overkill.

There are more pros than cons of using an MP5 over any sidearm. I thought that was something I wouldn't have to bluntly state like this. In a game, I would imagine that there would be no advantage of a sidearm over an MP5 aside from size. Does that mean it's wrong to put dual pistols in? Since the MP5 is so godly, let's just use that the whole game. The only weapon modeled would be an MP5. They should title this "Deus Ex: MP5." I bet that would market nicely.

If Alex were quite the marksman with dual pistols, tactically, it wouldn't be so stupid. I don't want to explain this. Just think about it.

[SYN] Nexus
18th Jul 2003, 23:11
I totally agree with you the small firearms are much more realistic for public use.Thats also why I used the STealth Pistol in DX till the end.

Big Ragu
19th Jul 2003, 02:04
An MP5, or any other SMG wouldn't technically be overkill, unless you use full auto. But Mp5, like many other assault guns have a rate of fire selector. You can shoot one shot, three shot burst, or all out. If you use a single shot, it would be practically the same as a pistol, but with a larder clip. That is why I want a rate of fire selector in Deus Ex: IW.

Also, about the size, packing an MP5, or even an MP5K wouldn't be the most comfortable thing, but that is why its a game.

TheDerf
19th Jul 2003, 03:46
Shoot a target with any 9mm pistol and shoot the same target with any 9mm sub-machine gun (preferably an MP5). See a difference? No. Was there a difference? Not enough to even take into consideration. So, do you need an MP5 to shoot someone at 10-15 yards with a 9mm round? No; overkill.

Big Ragu
19th Jul 2003, 06:00
If you could have a gun that holds 7 rounds and single fires, or a gun that hold 30 rounds and has multiple rates of fire, you should choose the second one.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be pistols, I saying the SMG is a better weapon.

(Don't see how if both shoot the exact same, one can be overkill.)

TheDerf
19th Jul 2003, 16:18
I should choose the sub-machine gun, but it doesn't fit my style of playing.


I'm not saying there shouldn't be pistols, I saying the SMG is a better weapon.

Can you people read?


There are more pros than cons of using an MP5 over any sidearm. I thought that was something I wouldn't have to bluntly state like this. In a game, I would imagine that there would be no advantage of a sidearm over an MP5 aside from size. ... and now I'm repeating it.


You don't need a sub-machine gun to shoot something with a 9mm round. Period.

Big Ragu
19th Jul 2003, 16:55
No, you don't need, but it's better.

The_Monopolizer
21st Jul 2003, 01:53
Maybe you could make guards hide behind cover when they are fired at. So if you had 2 fully auto .45 pistols with extended clips or something, and you ran across the room blazing at the enemy, you could get through and they'd have been hiding behind the corner, scared to death. A new twist on non-lethal tactics: intimidation through badass dual pistols!

Maybe make the NPCs afraid of you if you whip them out!

No really... they might do it.

TheDerf
21st Jul 2003, 03:01
I hope they've added something like that into Deus Ex 2, not the full auto pistols, but the AI recognizing times when and when they shouldn't shoot back.

The_Monopolizer
21st Jul 2003, 05:23
If only Equilibrium: The Game came out just before DX2, then no one would be asking for this.

crimson_stallion
22nd Jul 2003, 12:16
Originally posted by TheDerf
In Deus Ex 2, the chances are that Alex will not be charging down mounted machine guns on a beach with 10,000 fellow soldiers and therefore would not need a rifle. When I'm playing Deus Ex, Alex will not kick open the front door and go Rambo on anyone inside and therefore would not need a sub-machine gun. Alex will probably spend a lot of time around civilians, so he'd need a weapon that wouldn't bulge out of his coat when he walked or pinch his crotch when he sits.

I like to play my game professionally, sneaking around with as little casualties as possible. When I do have to kill or render someone unconcious, I won't be 200 feet away with my MP5. I'll be anywhere from 50 feet or less away from him when I fire. In that situation, a sub-machine gun is overkill, but hey! If you like to slaughter your victim, go for it.

Now read my other posts carefully. I never said that I was in favor of dual pistols, but I don't like the idea of Alex walking around in public with an assault weapon. I like the traditional sidearm because it fits the way I do things. Rather than rushing through the front door and having a two minute fire fight, I'll sneak in the back way. Now you can play like me and bring your MP5, but like I said, overkill.

There are more pros than cons of using an MP5 over any sidearm. I thought that was something I wouldn't have to bluntly state like this. In a game, I would imagine that there would be no advantage of a sidearm over an MP5 aside from size. Does that mean it's wrong to put dual pistols in? Since the MP5 is so godly, let's just use that the whole game. The only weapon modeled would be an MP5. They should title this "Deus Ex: MP5." I bet that would market nicely.

If Alex were quite the marksman with dual pistols, tactically, it wouldn't be so stupid. I don't want to explain this. Just think about it.

1) I say again, a submachinegun would take up little more room then a pistol. It would take LESS room then two pistols.

2) Not everyone plays the game with a stealthy style, so not EVERYONE would consider an mp5 overkill

3) I wasnt saying a assault rifle / submachine gun is a perfect weapon, im simply saying that there would be no point whatsoever in using two pistols if you can use a submachine gun. Obvsiously a sidearm has an advantage of size, concealment, lightweight, and that it doesnt waste precious ammo quite so readilly, BUT once you start to use two pistols at once, practically every one of these advantages is eliminated, thus leaving only disadvantages. The pistol is also one of my favorite tools, and I also usually play a stelthy type game if possible, but personally I think a silenced SMG if anything is easier to use and conceal then dual-pistols. Naturally with one pistol this is not the case, but with TWO it is.

I personally thing that if a certain weapon has little purpose in the game (such as DUAL pistols) then its better off saving valuable programming time and resources and leave it out of the game. What woudl you prefer, 30 average weapons (half of which are practicaly useless) or 10-15 excelent, quality, well detailed and rendered weapons, with realistic sound effects and characteristics, and which all have some form of purpose? The original deus ex had an assault rifle. EVen though i didnt like to use it, it did come in handy at times when i ran out of ammo on my other weapons, or when I came up against a particuarly tough opponent(s) who were too difficult to eliminate with a pistol and unnafected by a prod/dart.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
22nd Jul 2003, 12:49
I'm not sure, but I think this thread is going in circles.


What woudl you prefer, 30 average weapons (half of which are practicaly useless) or 10-15 excelent, quality, well detailed and rendered weapons

I agree, that's one (of the few) things I disliked in Max Payne: you had the choice between a lot of weapons, with different types of ammo, but in the end you always used only one weapon for each ammo, and you didn't even use all types of ammo, because they weren't efficeint enough

I would have preferred less weapons, but each of them useful in different type of situation (Heavy fire, zone damage, stealth, etc)

crimson_stallion
22nd Jul 2003, 13:09
Originally posted by Big Ragu
An MP5, or any other SMG wouldn't technically be overkill, unless you use full auto. But Mp5, like many other assault guns have a rate of fire selector. You can shoot one shot, three shot burst, or all out. If you use a single shot, it would be practically the same as a pistol, but with a larder clip. That is why I want a rate of fire selector in Deus Ex: IW.

Also, about the size, packing an MP5, or even an MP5K wouldn't be the most comfortable thing, but that is why its a game.

True, it would'nt, but neither would 2 pistols. If he can carry a gep gun in his jacket they why not aye ;) lol

crimson_stallion
22nd Jul 2003, 13:56
Originally posted by Big Ragu
If you could have a gun that holds 7 rounds and single fires, or a gun that hold 30 rounds and has multiple rates of fire, you should choose the second one.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be pistols, I saying the SMG is a better weapon.

(Don't see how if both shoot the exact same, one can be overkill.)

What he's saying is that it's overkill because you don't NEED an SMG if a pistol is sufficient for a particular situation. i.e. If you have a single target at close range, you don't NEED an SMG because a pistol will do the job jsut fine. I.e he's saying it's overkill because you are using more then you NEED (I think.. correct me if i'm wrong).

Yet the point im tryign to make is not that pistols are useless and that an SMG is entirely superior for every situation, but that DUAL pistols is useless and that an SMG is superior for probably every situation (then DUAL pistols).

It's true, if you play the stealth style of game, then an SMG is overkill. In fact, you coudl probably finish the game in such a case without a firearm of any form. BUT not all players have the patience to wait around to watch fro enemy patrol routes, sneak around with a prod at close range (or trank darts), and other players are simply action junkies and thus want to be able to go out an shoot everything that moves (without worrying about 'will he turn around and spot me before i prod him' type scenarios).

Deus ex is a game that puts great pride in allowing the player to take many different paths interms of playing style. To force players to play a particular way (such as stealthy, or 'shoot it if it moves') would be stripping the game of one of its greatest assets.

On this note, it could be argued that not including dual pistols would similarly be reducing player freedom by not allowing then to play their dual pistol movie style game. In a way this is true, but deus ex (despite being sci fi) IS intended to be fairly realistic, and as I said before, dual pistols (IMO) would have no unique advantage other then 'looking cool'. I'll try to demonstrate thsi point;

A pistol has the following advantages over an SMG
1) light carry weight
2) ease of concealment
3) small size making it more practical in enclosed areas
4) slowish refire rate meaning you dont waste ammo
5) relatively quick to reload
6) relatively accurate out to medium range
7) lowish reciol because if lowish power and two hand grip

Now, lets look at these issues for dual pistols:
1) double weight of single pistol (probably no less then an SMG)
2) harder to conceal (two lumps in the jacket instead of one)
3) harder to manouver because you need one in each hand
4) double fire rate (2 rounds in teh space of one for a single pistol) means you are more likely to use uneccessary ammo
5) take double (probably more) time to reload then 1 pistol
6) little to no accuracy from anywhere but EXTREMELY clsoe range
7) higher recoil because each gun is stabilised by only one hand

Now lets compare an SMG (MP5 only as an EXAMPLE to dual pistols):
1) similar weight to two pistols
2) fair enough, probably harder to conceal then two pistols (youd probably need a suitcase or soemthing of the like), but this plays little part in deus ex because NPC's dont notice things in your inventory
3) probably easier to manover because you are only holdign one weapon, with two hands
4) higher fire rate means likely wasting of valauble ammo, but thats why you set it to semi auto
5) takes less tiem to reload then two pistols
6) very good accuracy from close to meduim range (on semi auto)
7) manageable recoil because you have two hands to stabalise the weapon, especially in semi-auto
8) added advantage of havign option of 3 round burts or full auto fire, in case you get in a sticky situation (i.e. accidentally trigger an alarm and have to deal with 4 guards with tough AI who are pretty pissed.
9) 30 round clip as opposed to the 10 or so youll find in a pistol (usually).

So back to my point:
While a pistol has some important advantages over an SMG, TWO pistols do NOT. For this reason, in MY opinion, inclusion of dual pistols would be redundant for these reasons:
1) If you want concealment and simple you use a pistol
2) if you need more firepower you use an SMG

You asked for people to read your posts more carefully. Now how about you read MINE more carefully. I dont think I ever said that an SMG is the ultimate superior tool for every occasion. I don't think i said that an SMG is superior to a pistol in every case. What I DID say is that an SMG is probably superior to DUAL pistols in every case.

At the least, I would like to see deus ex 2 include some from of each of the followign types of weapons:
1) pistol (hopefully also stealth pistol OR a bolt on silencer)
2) shotgun
3) sniper rifle
4) rocket launcher/gep gun/etc
5) hand held grenades of some form
6) smg or assault rifle of some form
7) possibly a heavy machine gun, but not neccessary
8) energy weapon of some form (its inevitable)
9) melee weapon of some form (knife, baton, etc)

These are main weapon types we see in most shooting games, beause with all of these, you essentially have a weapon for every situation (every normal situation at least). I would rather see one of each of these weapon types in the game, well modelled, with realistic physics, each with unique and realistic characteristics, and quality soudn effects, then see 25 weapons, of which there are 3 of each type (give or take), which all feel the same, sound the same, but look abit different. Similarly, i'd like to see alot of effort and time put into making these main weapon feeel quality, as opposed to putting time into bringing out countless other little weapons (such as dual pistols, 3 different standard pistols that are practicalyl the same, 2 SMG's, 2 assault rifles, 2 sniper rifles, 2 granade launchers, a rocket launcher, a knife, a baton, a crowbar, a brick, etc) of which half are redudant.

As is said to begin with, who will use DUAL pistols in the GAME throughout the game, if an SMG uses the same ammo (thus ammo is jsut as easy to find), has a faster refire rate (which can be set to semi auto), has improved accuraccy, takes up similar space in inventroy (believe me they would in the game) and reloads faster? Yes, in reality it may be unrealistic to walk around with an SMG tucked in your jacket.

In reality, a single pistol is more then enough for 90% of situations an every day person will get into. In fact, a prod or knife is enough, and a pistol overkill. However, we are talking about a game. A game which (although intended to see fairly realistic) allows you to tuck a rocket launcher, a pistol, a knife, a shotgun, a gep gun, 20 lockpick kits and, 30 grenades (10 of each type) inside your inventory AT THE SAME TIME.

In such a game, if the weapon characteristics are realistically modelled, dual pistols have no advantage over an SMG.

Sorry for the shockign length of this post but I had to clear up my point. Dual pistols in a game, if modelled realistically, are basicaly a waste of time, space and money. Not only in the game, but for the people designing the game. At least thats my humble opinion.

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
22nd Jul 2003, 15:16
reminds me of a song, by Status quo

"We go round and round and round and over again..."

Catman
22nd Jul 2003, 16:26
Or this ditty:

This is the song that does not end.
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend.
Some people starting singing it
Not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it
Forever just because
This is the song that does not end ...

TheDerf
22nd Jul 2003, 18:08
Maybe I should just stop, let this topic die, and let crimson_stallion breathe. I'm lucky that I lived through reading his post anyway.

Big Ragu
22nd Jul 2003, 18:22
Yeah, it going nowhere.

Catman
23rd Jul 2003, 13:10
Okay. I'll put it out of our misery.