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MajinVejitaXV
30th May 2003, 03:09
This is something I've considered for awhile now, and I was thinking about it earlier today and decided I might post my thoughts here and get some feedback.

Raziel evolved and got wings. He was thrown into the abyss for his transgression, blah blee blah blee blah. Through the course of the Soul Reaver arc of the Legacy of Kain series, we are basically told that Raziel was in fact taking on traits of the ancient vampires, the ones who were born as such and at one time were not cursed and were more like deities than monsters.

I'm sure I'm not the first to notice it, but when we see the murals throughout Soul Reaver 2 and meet Janos Audron, the last remaining ancient, we can gather that the ancient vampires had wings similar to those of an angel. Raziel's, however, were like those of a bat. Normally, this wouldn't even register with me, if it wasn't for...

The Seer. The woman who helps Kain in BO2, and a Hylden. She too possesses wings, however that are like Raziel's, bat-like in nature. I would attribute Kain's taking of her blood to Raziel's appearance, as perhaps her traits passed through Kain from her to Raziel, however BO2 takes place in the alternate timeline, as we have been told (which, in my opinion, is somewhat of a mistake).

So, what is Raziel? Vampire? Hylden? Bizarre amalgam?

-MajinVejitaXV

Apocrypha Roxy
30th May 2003, 03:39
Raz was in the first step of evolving towards the line of the ancients: he sported wings. baby birds don't have actual feathers on their wings when they hatch. But they get them later on.

Ok, so I'm comparing Raz to a baby bird, it's late, but you get my drift, right?
Along the line, if the Razielim were not wiped out, Raz and his brood would gain feathers on their wings. For now, they just got the basics.

Okay I'm tired it's 11:30 and there's school tomorrow so pardon the addled thoughts g'night folks.

The_Hylden
30th May 2003, 04:21
The seer in BO2 met Kain in the alternate timeline, there's nothing substantiating the fact that they met originally. Also, just because Kain took her blood what exactly would that have to do with Raziel's resurrection? Kain raised his soul through necromancy, giving him a piece of his soul in order to bring Raziel's soul back from the either. Nowhere does it state that they shared blood. That's not how vampires in Nosgoth are created. Blood means nothing.;)

warpsavant
30th May 2003, 07:32
Tell that to Prince Vorador and Janos.

Raziel is Raziel, he's one of a kind.

Apocrypha Roxy
31st May 2003, 00:27
If blood was the means of transferring vampirism, then Kain would have passed onto the boys everything he'd ever drank.

Including those smelly people from Steinchencroe. :rolleyes:

Can you say 'Food Poisoning'? No wonder he kept so many antitoxins! :eek:

Although we're not quite sure how Vorador and the oher vampires were turned, necromancy is the way Kain raised the lieutenants.

The Amazing Rando
31st May 2003, 01:02
Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy

Although we're not quite sure how Vorador and the oher vampires were turned, necromancy is the way Kain raised the lieutenants.

Actually, since we know about the "blood curse"" I would say this answer tells us how the other vamps were made, along with Kain's brood.


Q: How did Janos make Voradoor-like Kain made Raziel and his sons, or like
Mortanius made Kain? Was the way Kain made and the way Kain created his
brethren the same? Howd Voradoor make his children?

A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.

While she didn't directly say it, I take this to mean the whole traditional neck-bite.

The_Hylden
31st May 2003, 01:07
Right, she also said somewhere something to the effect that the blood is only needed to feed the body, but the soul is what remains inside and immortal. Further deviating this from normal vampire tales and I applaud the inspiration of it all.

Riovanes
31st May 2003, 02:04
After taking all of this in, I thought, perhaps, I would have something incredibly profound to put forth... Unfortunately, all I really have is my knee-jerk reaction to what is nothing more than a surface-scraping theory that takes appearances as truth in a tale where we've already learned that initial appearances and actions mean nothing...

Hylden, behold...

"Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?"

BAH!!!

The_Hylden
31st May 2003, 03:13
Hylden, behold... "Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?"

Waht the heck did I do to deserve that?

I did read it in an interview, however, I can't substantiate it, I'll freely admit. But, man, chill! If someone knows what I was referring to please back me up, for, unfortunately I've been accosted before the jury was in.

The Amazing Rando
31st May 2003, 05:25
dude chill. wow.

first off: lighten up. don't take everything so seriously, specially with someone like Rio. That's just who he is. You have not been accosted, believe me, you'd know if you were.

Second off, I believe that quote would be something said on South Park, you know on Comedy Central (note the bolded word). However, ther's a chance I'm wrong as I haven't seen many episodes of that. It would be the teacher (Mr. Mackey?) who would say it. Not an attack, at any rate.

Third, he was basically just saying "Don't judge a book by its cover" or "Not everything is as it seems". You know, don't take everything at face value in this series (or on these forums->see point 1)

Edit: I'm getting a feeling of deja vu. Now if only I could remember-it was some impression I got about the world, something about a scary feeling. . . it'll come back to me eventually I'm sure.:p

Umah Bloodomen
31st May 2003, 05:31
**chuckles**

Riovanes
1st Jun 2003, 07:12
As Rando said - you would KNOW if I was getting after you - there's a distinct difference between a "Rio Ribbing," and a "Rio Ass-Reaming." They may sound similar, but one involves wordplay that only I believe is witty, and the other involves... wordplay that only I believe is witty - with a little bit of "I hate you because your ignorance has driven me to kick small puppies in order to vent my rage," thrown in.

By the way, I do believe the word you were looking for was something other than "accosted." It most certainly wasn't "acquitted," as that would've meant you'd been let off the hook. Really, "accosted," would've been fine, if you hadn't used it in conjunction with the word "jury." See, to accost someone is to attack, molest (<-- This is NOT sexual, for those of you who only watch Fox News), or otherwise interact with a person in an unpleasant manner - which would've been absolutely perfect for your reply, other than that being accosted usually leads TO a jury trial - it has no place as a trial term. Unless, of course, your lawyer randomly slaps you with his notes for misusing a word...

(By the way, since my first attempt at levity somehow got by your stellar powers of perception, I should tell you that I'm an English major - I pick at EVERYONE's language... So let's be clear: IT'S NOT JUST YOU!!!)

BAH!!!

The_Hylden
1st Jun 2003, 09:25
No, I got it, you're right and it's cool. I was just a little too edgy because it was my first post, and I think I just liked the dramatic sense that accosted seemed to give when I used it. It just sounded so eloquent.:rolleyes:

KoolKat_EF
1st Jun 2003, 16:32
Is that not why Kain cast Raziel into the abyss? Because he was potentially Hylden?

I think I heard this over at the NR forums, but there is a theory that Raziel's wings were the first sign of his step towards the path of the Hylden. Kain then threw him into the abyss to well kinda baptize him, to stop it from happening, to purify him. Kain could then take him through time and use him to help save Nosgoth now that Raziel was pure.

I dunno if anyone will agree with this. The other guy explained it better and it really did sound plausable in his words, but I can't remember what thread it was in or which member wrote it.

Oh yeah, someone also had the idea that if you mirror Raziel's clan symbol and turn it upside down, it looks like the wings on his back when they are folded and I've noticed that it also looks like the wings on the backs of the Hylden on the wall paintings in SR2.

I'll try to find the relevant threads for y'all to see.

warpsavant
1st Jun 2003, 17:45
Originally posted by The Hylden
Right, she also said somewhere something to the effect that the blood is only needed to feed the body, but the soul is what remains inside and immortal. Further deviating this from normal vampire tales and I applaud the inspiration of it all.

Thats in the SR1 manual, I dont think its anything Amy said anywhere, and to be honest, I guess it could've been someone else who wrote that in the manual. Like Seth perhaps.


Originally posted by KoolKat
Is that not why Kain cast Raziel into the abyss? Because he was potentially Hylden?

I think I heard this over at the NR forums, but there is a theory that Raziel's wings were the first sign of his step towards the path of the Hylden. Kain then threw him into the abyss to well kinda baptize him, to stop it from happening, to purify him. Kain could then take him through time and use him to help save Nosgoth now that Raziel was pure.

I dunno if anyone will agree with this. The other guy explained it better and it really did sound plausable in his words, but I can't remember what thread it was in or which member wrote it.

Oh yeah, someone also had the idea that if you mirror Raziel's clan symbol and turn it upside down, it looks like the wings on his back when they are folded and I've noticed that it also looks like the wings on the backs of the Hylden on the wall paintings in SR2.

I'll try to find the relevant threads for y'all to see.

WHAT?! Its interesting but I think its nonsense. Also Raziels clan symbol turned upside down represents his tears, and not wings.


And last, the Seers wings (if you can even call them wings) and Raziels are completely different IMO.

KoolKat_EF
1st Jun 2003, 19:19
Um, I would've thought that the clan symbols the right way up would've represented his tears.

If you do a quick sketch and compare to the folded wings on Raz's back - yep, it makes sense.

Well, I don't think it's nonsense cos, in a way, the baptism idea kinda makes more sense. By damning Raz to become the blue guy, he was stopped from evolving further into a horrible or evil thing.

KoolKat_EF
1st Jun 2003, 20:24
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16589

warpsavant
1st Jun 2003, 21:28
Well, the clan symbol depends on what Raziel, since Raziel wears it one way, and after the abyss its flipped upside down, and looks like tears. His clan symbol is right side up both ways I guess. I 'd say the way he wore it as a vampire was right side up personally. :)

And the baptism idea makes more sense than what exactly? The idea that Raz was cast in because Kain was jealous or what?

Edit: Oh yeah. I thought you were talking about a NR thread. I read Dariens latest theory the other day. Well, I guess I have to post there now and tell him I think thats crazy.

Umah Bloodomen
2nd Jun 2003, 00:20
You know, warp, I am surprised you haven't included the symbol's explanation from the one who drew it. ;)


Originally posted by Dan Cabuco
I think Blincoln is going to publish a special secret on Raziel's symbol. After it was designed, I used it to form the base of PreFallen Raz's wings. Abstract enough for you? heh.. But Also, Raziel's symbol was designed to be reversible (upside-downable?) so when he becomes Fallen Raz, the symbol looks kinda like tears coming down..

warpsavant
3rd Jun 2003, 00:14
I didn't want to bother looking for it, it wasn't the wings/tears thing that I thought was nonsense, but the whole Raz is a Hylden idea.

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Jun 2003, 01:29
Originally posted by warpsavant
I didn't want to bother looking for it, it wasn't the wings/tears thing that I thought was nonsense, but the whole Raz is a Hylden idea.

At your age, I wouldn't want to bother either. :p ;) :D

I know you didn't think that was nonsense. I just looked it up to further your earlier statements. :)

warpsavant
3rd Jun 2003, 02:52
My thanks. It backs us both really, its wings one tears the other. It just depends on what Raziel. My fascination with smurfs and all Im always thinking of the blue one.

Razafan should have the same symbol on its side or something.

darien_specter
3rd Jun 2003, 07:09
At least someone remembered that I said that three weeks ago... :( is no one reading stuff in the SR forum anymore or something?

Crazy, eh? Well, you're crazy! Everyone's nuts but me! Ehh... :p I expected more from you than that, warp - you usually have more to say! Tell me (over there, of course) why you think it's crazy... please? I always like to know your opinion... you might have caught something that I missed. I admit that it might be a bit of falling into the "everybody's evil! EVIL!" trap... :p

hm_rules
6th Jun 2003, 06:52
but what if raziel is half & half? Meaning hes partually hylden and partually one of the ancients. suppose sometime back then one of the hylden and ancients fell in love "mated" and had a son just like raziel and was somehow put in the timestream and ended up where he did. like i said just a stupid thought its really late here.

Evelin The Winged
6th Jun 2003, 09:49
Originally posted by hm_rules
but what if raziel is half & half? Meaning hes partually hylden and partually one of the ancients. suppose sometime back then one of the hylden and ancients fell in love "mated" and had a son just like raziel and was somehow put in the timestream and ended up where he did. like i said just a stupid thought its really late here.

Also crazy. Are you forgetting about Sarafan Raziel? He was human!

hm_rules
6th Jun 2003, 19:49
maybe hes half human and half hylden and then kain made him into a vampire. so then that would make him of all the kinds, thus allowing him to be the saviour of nosgoth.

thats just another thought though.

warpsavant
6th Jun 2003, 20:24
I am never going to talk about this subject again. My last words on this subject are Raziel is Raziel, and whatever he might be, he is not a Hylden.

Azrael
6th Jun 2003, 20:55
Ya know, you guys have the most strange ideas/theories/thoughts, etc... :p
*calls the guys in the white coats*
:D:D:D:D



Posted by warpsavant:
...My last words on this subject are Raziel is Raziel, and whatever he might be, he is not a Hylden.
:eek: Interesting :eek:

darien_specter
8th Jun 2003, 02:58
Raziel is Raziel? No, that's crazy!! Oh... wait... eh... :p

punkst4r
9th Jun 2003, 01:21
If blood had nothing to do with raziels evolution or anything but restoring the body. Then why did kain have to drink the seers blood to obtain the telekenesis ability? and why not her soul?

punkst4r
9th Jun 2003, 01:26
My theory on why raziel could have grown wings is that he was the one who ripped janos's heart out and and probably that had some effect on him.

Umah Bloodomen
9th Jun 2003, 01:28
Kain = Vampire
Raziel = Soul Reaver

Let me know what doesn't add up here.

As for your *added information* **shakes head**

Also, please use the EDIT function if you have something more to add. This will cut down on unnecessary duplicate posts.

Apocrypha Roxy
9th Jun 2003, 18:05
Originally posted by punkst4r
If blood had nothing to do with raziels evolution or anything but restoring the body. Then why did kain have to drink the seers blood to obtain the telekenesis ability? and why not her soul?


Why did Kain have to drink the Seer's blood to obtain Telekinesis?
By drinking her blood - which seems to have specific properties, seeing that she may be a hylden or hylden hybrid of some sort - the 'magic' I guess passed into his bloodstream. But she made him drink her blood - perhaps she willed the transfer of the gift?

Also note that Kain killed the builder of the Device and drank of him too - who was pure hylden. The purity of his blood is what killed the Mass. Nevermind that it was shaken-not-stirred with Kain's blood; the little bit of pure blood is what mattered.

Kain doesn't snack on souls. That's Raziel's job. ;)

Also read the SR1 manual where Raziel talks about how humans think it is a disease of the blood that makes a vampire - and how he explains that it is only to feed the body, so that the soul may survive. They're walking corpses, dude! :D