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ZelenGangrel
28th May 2003, 20:54
Ok, this is my first theory in a very VERY long time, so bear with me.

I was just sitting around thinking about an old theory of mind and came up with an interesting idea.

The point in time in which Kain killed William is an ongoing paradox. Kain, as he has shown, has no new memories from the time change because of that moment. Unlike the end of SR2. So this point in time is a constant moment of change in history. Kain fights against the legions, he travels back in time and kills William. The war of course, never happens. History changes But now, Kain has no reason to go back in time to kill the young king, so history changes back. And so on and so forth.

This one instant, is in constant change. It remains so even now. So this is the point, where anything is possible. A sustained paradox, made possible by the clashing of the Reavers. This is Kain's edge of the coin. A point in history that is changed, and rechanged for all eternity.

So I believe that this is where we will end up. That point. In order to change destiny, you must first find a point in which it doesnt exists.

(Thanks for listening to my drabble)

:cool:

Matthew
28th May 2003, 21:01
Where'd the coin land?

Hmm... Good question... By the time, we all know that Kain's intentsions were to obtain the Soul Reaver AND save Raziel.
But now he failed the first part of this mission.

Hm-hm-hmm... :confused:

- Matthew

Twist Of Fate
29th May 2003, 01:58
i think many people fail to recognize the possiblity that the coin didn't even land yet

Matthew
29th May 2003, 16:28
!

Didn't think of it. Very good idea! :)

- Matthew

KoolKat_EF
29th May 2003, 18:56
... but on a more serious note, I understand most of what you are saying ZelenGangrel.

Y'know, a lesson can be derived from all this... :rolleyes:

No matter what the mistake, what ever happens, don't ever time travel. :eek:

Time is meant to be linear and by travel backwards through it, it can lead to all sorts of paradoxes and loops and shifting. Travelling forward wouldn't do any harm, I wouldn't think?

UberJedi
29th May 2003, 20:30
Actually Time isn't really linear if you think about it. Example:

I could either go to the movies or stay home.

---------<

That is the time line, there are two choices, each one takes a different path. If I go to the movies it could catch on fire and I could perish. If I stay home I will continue to live. So my time line would be branched out with different possibilities each one leading to different things.

Ardeth Silvereni
29th May 2003, 21:34
That does seem possible, Zelen. Kain's lack of new memories after the 'William' paradox of BO1 does appear inconsistant.

As far as the nature of time is concerned - In LoK I think it flows in an endless cycle. Time begins, Time ends, and them Time begins again, exactly as before. There is no free will, and no choices that haven't already been predestined. I first heard the idea in the Sci-Fi series LEXX, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to fit.
Kain:
... and profoundly ingrained, Raziel.
You must understand, our presence here doesn't alter history.
You and I meet here because we are compelled to - we have always met here.
History is irredeemable.
Drop a stone into a rushing river - the current simple courses around it and flows on as if the obstruction were never there.
You and I are pebbles, Raziel, and have even less hope of disrupting the time-stream.
The continuum of history is simply too strong, too resilient.
Except... then how do we explain William, here?The only time the cycle of history can be disrupted is by using the Soul Reaver to create a paradox - otherwise nothing changes at all. That could explain how Moebius can predict the future. He's looking back into a previous cycle of history for his information. After Raziel refused to kill Kain in SR2, Moebius looked shocked because the old cycle of history had become obsolete, and for once he could not look back to see how history was going to progress.

Evelin The Winged
29th May 2003, 23:37
Exellent explanation, Ardeth.

hippiechk
29th May 2003, 23:46
I agree with you Ardeth. And you bring up some excellent points, particularly with the pebble facts.

But that brings us back to the original question - where did the coin land?
I'll go with the coin hasn't landed yet theory.

KoolKat_EF
30th May 2003, 20:56
Originally posted by UberJedi
Actually Time isn't really linear if you think about it. Example:

I could either go to the movies or stay home.

---------<

That is the time line, there are two choices, each one takes a different path. If I go to the movies it could catch on fire and I could perish. If I stay home I will continue to live. So my time line would be branched out with different possibilities each one leading to different things.

Yes, there are many choices, I understand that - like a family tree of possibilities. Yes.

What I meant in my post was that time is linear in that it is originally meant to go from past to future. It's not supposed to go into loops and paradoxes. Or at least I sure it's not, otherwise it wouldn't be so difficult to time travel.

No matter how many choices there are, you are only going to be able to take one at a time without the aid of time travel and so time goes in one big line.

The_Hylden
30th May 2003, 23:55
Hmm, perhaps the coin has landed on it's edge, and now two new faces/possibilities have replaced the old ones, giving two more possible futures from this one happening. Or, yes, it hasn't really landed on it's edge yet. It's all esoteric anyway.:D

darien_specter
3rd Jun 2003, 06:43
Here's another thought on Kain's lack of new memories after going back to kill William (although I am personally fond of the endless paradox myself :D). Perhaps he doesn't have any new memories because nothing that he'd experienced had changed. Granted, it does seem odd that, in all his travels, he'd never have encountered a fanatical vampire hunter; but let's pretend that he didn't for a moment.

We know how, in SR2, Moebius steers Raziel deliberately all over history to get him to a moment in time when he can attack Janos Audron. It also seems evident that Moebius steered Kain into the past so that he could launch his genocide. Consider this: Moebius sends Kain off into the forest to find Vorador; Vorador gives Kain his signet, telling Kain that he can summon him at need; after which, in Dark Eden, Kain calls Vorador to his aid when Malek appears. Vorador is thus lured out of his swap retreat of safety... Now if this series of events happens regardless (since Kain has no new memories of it), and after Kain kills William Moebius is leading an army of vampire hunters... then suppose that he is waiting to haul Vorador off at this point, to prepare him for public execution?

And just think... if Moebius got him before he could kill Malek, who is a soul fused to armor anyway... maybe that could be one of a little blue fellow's adventures this time around... :D

Ardeth Silvereni
3rd Jun 2003, 23:58
Originally posted by darien_specter
Perhaps he doesn't have any new memories because nothing that he'd experienced had changed.I'm not convinced. I think Kain had to experience some reshuffling of memory to accomodate the fact that William the Just never became the Nemesis, and Stahlberg was intact. These were tangible differences between old and new Nosgoth.
The only way out of this that I can see is the Time Streaming Device. I can't recall exactly when he used it, but I think it was straight after William died, when his guards arrived. Maybe he missed the reshuffling while he was travelling back to the present. He was outside of time, and therefore retained all his old memories and didn't gain the new ones.

I do like the rest of your ideas though. Vorador would surely have been affected by Moebius's staff like any other vampire. Your scenario is entirely possible, in my opinion - it even offers an explaination to something else that was bugging me about Vorador and the extinction of the vampires:

Vorador's mansion was a haven for vampires, and surely the prime place to hide out as their numbers decreased. The mansion was able to withstand the Vampire Purge of the Sarafan after all.
But why then did its defenses fall to a relatively untrained mercenary army? Previously, I thought Vorador may have just given in and let the defences lapse - he was fatalistic after this second purge had been initiated - we saw that in SR2.

Your post raises an interesting situation. Kain's dialogue in BO1 suggests that Vorador was the only power in his mansion - his brides were "nothing more than beasts, slave to his will and the easy prey he provided". If he left them to go to Dark Eden, perhaps they were powerless to effectively protect themselves against a well-timed attack planned by Moebius. I can't imagine anyone getting past Vorador unless he let them, or wasn't there at all.
Originally posted by darien_specter
And just think... if Moebius got him before he could kill Malek, who is a soul fused to armor anyway... maybe that could be one of a little blue fellow's adventures this time around... :D I wouldn't rule it out entirely, but I think I'd prefer to let Vorador keep his victory. :)

warpsavant
4th Jun 2003, 01:16
I prefer Vorador keep his victory as well. But, who is to say that Vorador was attacked and captured in the Mansion? Dariens post made me think that it might be possible that he was captured right after the confrontation with Malek. The "lured out of the swamp" makes perfect sense, the best time to get him, regardless of how fatalistic he is, wouldbe right after or during that battle. I also agree that a full blown assault on the Mansion by humans to capture Vorador is hard to comprehend, unless they all had Bone Armor on or something.

darien_specter
4th Jun 2003, 05:45
That is a very good point, Ardeth; I had forgotten about those things changing. (Sort of dumb when you think about that one of the different things is exactly the thing he was going to change... arrgh!) But that also sounds like a good explanation for why he might have missed the shuffle; especially as it might not have been as big a one as the SR2 end, which was described as worse than when Raz spared Kain. It might be, too, that he could have missed part of it as being sort of expected, in that if he suddenly didn't remember the Nemesis, maybe he was somewhat expecting it and it didn't really surprise him.

Which raises an interesting question: when Kain acquires his new memories, does he lose the old ones? Does he have a memory of his memories changing? What does it all mean??

I actually agree that it would be nice if Vorador still offed Malek personally; it just occurred to me that the other might be a plausible Defiance scenario. But it would make just as much sense; after all, Moebius sacrificed Malek once before, when Raziel attacked the Keep - in fact, for the same intention, to force Raziel into a situation where he would be destroyed (by the Reaver, when the wraithblade reawoke.) So why not sacrifice Malek again to lure Vorador out of the swamp? No need to actually save Malek, I suppose... and the fight with Malek could have left Vorador weakened, and even more vulnerable when Moebius swooped in with his staff...

The Amazing Rando
4th Jun 2003, 06:04
Well, I think that maybe you people are just reading a little too much into a descrepancy between BO1 and SR2, considering that the story has changed so much and all. I do think that not everything needs to be analyzed as to why Kain didn't have new memories then, since it wasn't planned that he would need to in order to agree with SR2's plot.

I could come up with an idea explaining it using the game, but I have to play that part of BO1 again to get some info, and that probably won't happen for a while as I don't have BO1 on my comp at the present time.

Anyway, to restate what I said, Kain apparently didn't get new memories because he didn't need to because there was no SR2 planned at that point that would make it so that Kain needs new memories. No game/writer conspiracies or mistakes in BO1 (as it came first) IMO.

Ardeth Silvereni
4th Jun 2003, 10:33
Originally posted by The Amazing Rando
... I do think that not everything needs to be analyzed as to why Kain didn't have new memories then, since it wasn't planned that he would need to in order to agree with SR2's plot...

... Anyway, to restate what I said, Kain apparently didn't get new memories because he didn't need to because there was no SR2 planned at that point that would make it so that Kain needs new memories. No game/writer conspiracies or mistakes in BO1 (as it came first) IMO. I agree, but it's much more fun to think of scenarios to explain inconsistancies with the new games, however minor. Every time a plausible explaination is found to cover an inconsistancy, I think it strengthens the storyline of the series, making it it even more robust.
Originally posted by darien_specter
Which raises an interesting question: when Kain acquires his new memories, does he lose the old ones? Does he have a memory of his memories changing? What does it all mean?? Raziel said "Behind Kain's eyes, I could see new memories blooming and dying..." That suggests to me that old memories are lost - but we know Raziel it not infallible. He may be misinterpreting what is happening, seeing as he's never experienced a memory reshuffle himself.
Personally, I would expect that old memories would be overwritten with the relevent new ones, but I doubt that happened in Kain's case. He was horrified by his new memories, and he singled out the fact that Janos was going to be resurrected on this altered timeline. I don't think this happened before - or if it did, the consequences of his resurrection weren't so disastrous. Kain must have been able to compare the old timeline with the new one somehow.

The Amazing Rando
4th Jun 2003, 14:26
Originally posted by Ardeth Silvereni
I agree, but it's much more fun to think of scenarios to explain inconsistancies with the new games, however minor. Every time a plausible explaination is found to cover an inconsistancy, I think it strengthens the storyline of the series, making it it even more robust.

I must disagree with this. I feel tht it does nothing for the storyline by us sitting here trying to come up with explanations for things that have no affect to the story. This is probably why I also don't like fanfics (one of the resons at least), it's just one possible explanation, and no tat of the writer (Amy) necessarily.

I see this on another mb about a book series I like, where there's multiple authors, and I think it just sounds dumb trying to cover things up like theres a conspiracy. There's no explanation (at least yet) and it has no meaning, so I say let it drop.

Anyway, as long as there are multiple explanations, unless stated in one of the games, then I don't think it helps at all or actually explains anything.

ZelenGangrel
4th Jun 2003, 18:30
Just a ray of sunshine today, arent we?

Topics that have theories that branch off into wild explanations are the best kind. Not because they are true but because they are brainstorming sessions that let us entertain ourselves until we know the truth or forget about the topic.

There's no reason to end a topic just because its not neccessarily going to get anywhere.

The Amazing Rando
4th Jun 2003, 20:12
Who ever sadi to end the topic? I didn't, I just think people are trying to explain something that needs no, nor has any, explanation. I wasn't criticizing anyone, I just was aying I think it unnecessary to build a theory about something so minor, and that I disagree that it strengthens the story in any way. That is just my opinion, which I am allowed to have, even if it differs from yours.

Danimalxx
5th Jun 2003, 07:40
Yes I am new..haha..but please bare with me,

Danimalxx
5th Jun 2003, 07:59
Yes I am new..haha..but please bare with me,


To get back to the original "coin landing" question, I think it is safe to say that the coin did in fact land and it did so on its supposed edge. This is true because you get two possible outcomes combined into one act: The creation of the Soul Reaver from the Blood Reaver (Although it is still called the Soul Reaver) and also the retention of life for the Reaver of Souls, Raziel the Messiah of Nosgoth. This moment was important because the Legacy of Kain future we have seen in this specific gaming universe depended on the Soul Reaver being endowed with Raziel's soul devouring characteristic. (For Instance, the blade would have never been shattered on Raziel in the future, giving him his symbiotic wraith bladen which he uses to open various cool things in SR2)

But, my theory is just a theory and probably has many holes I have not considered yet...haha. After playing SR2 though, the whole "wraith blade" scenario confused me. The Soul Reaver blade was destroyed when Raziel was struck with it because Raziel's essence was inside the blade and could not reave the soul of a reaver of souls, or Raziel could not reave his own soul...whatever...ugh. But does this mean that Raziel's essence was then entwined around his own arm in the future(...or "past future" to be technical)?? Any theories on this aspect?

The Amazing Rando
5th Jun 2003, 18:09
Sorry Danimalxx, but I do have to poke a biiiiig hole in your theory, or at least the reasoning behind it. The two actions you mentioned, only one happened.


Chris' answer posted by willow
Q: I’ve noticed that Kain wields the physical incarnation of the Soul Reaver… I’m all kinds of confused…

A: Both characters are armed with an incarnation of the Reaver -- Raziel with the Soul Reaver wraith blade, and Kain with the "Blood" Reaver (it's not the Soul Reaver, because it's still an empty vessel -- Raziel's soul is not in the blade).