PDA

View Full Version : Making the game more accessible



MIBman
24th May 2003, 01:36
I'm just posting this to make sure that the dudes at ION STORM are gonna simplify the control scheme because in the original it sucked ass to map AUGS to F5 F10 F11 etc. I hardly used them. It was impossible reach the augs in time for a hectic situation. They need to change it to be more like the jedi knight control scheme or give an option. For instance it could be possible to use the "C" and "V" keys to cycle through the augs and then use the "F" key to activate the one your on. It would work waay better for multiplayer and make it easier for newer players. I know a ton of people who picked up Deus Ex but then gave up after the very first mission because they were dropped into a combat situation with no skills whatsoever. Somehow a super bionically enhanced agent had to take a full minute to aim his pistol at a target 200 ft away. I would also be nice to simplify the interaction from the original game. I know that for DOOM 3 there isn't a need for a use key because its possible for the player to touch the keypad by aiming and standing close to it. Makes it less dangerous.

Zero
24th May 2003, 03:53
*Sigh* No comment. I'm just not going to take the time to explain why that's such a bad/misinformed idea. I might do it tomorrow.

MIBman
24th May 2003, 17:34
do it today dammit i just wanna know why

Zero
24th May 2003, 20:26
Ok, now that I'm fully awake I'll provide my response to your post.

First of all, concerning the ease of use of augmentations, it was (and actually still is, considering that I still play the game...) very easy to switch the config around a bit to allow you to activate your augmentations using keys located close to your movement buttons. For example, I use YGHJ to move, and my T key is bound to Speed Enhancement. My U key is bound to Vision Enhancement and Cloak, and my K key is bound to Ballistic Protection, Aggressive Defense System, and Regeneration. Very simple configuration, and it takes less time for me to get into full combat/stealth/whatever mode than it would for you to scroll through your augmentations and select the ones you want to activate.

Now, concerning the skills, they added to both the realism and the gameplay of the game. You weren't incredibly skilled in the first mission because, well, it was your first mission. You had absolutely no real-life experience whatsoever. You couldn't be expected to be able to take down a moving target from a mile away the second you stepped into combat; you'd have to become more experienced and learn how to use your weapons more efficiently. Now, for the gameplay aspect, skills allowed you to focus on the area of the game that you preferred; as the enemies get harder to take down and greater in numbers, you could either add more skill points to your weapons skills to take them down more efficiently, or add points to Computer and Lockpicking in order to bypass combat altogether. Now, just because something is done a certain way in Doom 3 doesn't mean it's the best way. I'd actually prefer as little resemblance to Doom 3 as possible in this game, at least in the gameplay department; whereas Doom 3 will be just another kill-em-all, tunnel-crawling shooter, Deus Ex had strategy. Now that the sequel is being released for X-Box as well as PC, though, I think you'll get your wish on many of these things; the game is being enormously simplified in order to be played easily and efficiently from a ten-button controller. You probably will have scroll-select augmentations, and it'll probably be like that for the PC too. And you definitely won't have skills.

That's not a good thing, though.

MIBman
24th May 2003, 23:16
Those aren't very good points to justify using the old system. First of all, nobody uses that control scheme. YGHJ for movement? For most gamers, they don't wanna spend the time taking the default control scheme and then realizing how useless it really is. I know for most of us WASD users, it might be sensible to remap some augs around the keyboard but the Jedi Knight 2 control scheme is waaaay more efficient and easier for new players to take control. I know that back then about 3 years ago it was harder to learn new keys but simplification is the best way to do it. It's not that the old map augs system has to be done away with its just that there should be and option to cycle through augmentations. The skills system was a very nice part of the first game but one of its faults was that to create a high level of accuracy for players late in the game, gun accuracy in the beggining of the game had to be ridiculously low in order to create noticable differences later in the game. This created a lot of unnecessary difficulty for new players in that not only you yourself had to learn some new skills but so did your ingame character. There were also consistency issues in the fact that a futuristic super agent starts the game with virtually no accuracy and no augmentations. I know the developers are remedying this with augs in the beginning of DE:IW. Its not that i didn't like the skills system. The AI in the original game really compensated for alot of these things by being stupid (IE: run out of doorwayget shot in the head. buddy comes over and gets shot in the head). Games nowadays need to be simplified in terms of accessibility but added to in terms of gameplay. I'm gonna feel sorry to admit this but I've actually tried the DOOM alpha and if you see how standardized and simplified the control scheme is and the interaction with the keypad and doors and stuff, you'd admire the amount of innovation and simplicity that goes into this kinda stuff.

brilliantcombat5
25th May 2003, 02:45
Well what do we have here? a good ole difference in opinion. Zero is right that DX2 should be very far from Doom3. Also correct about the Xbox version which makes it dumbed down. I dont want to say it but i think this game is going to be a big dissappointmet.

brilliantcombat5
25th May 2003, 02:46
Well what do we have here? a good ole difference in opinion. Zero is right that DX2 should be very far from Doom3. Also correct about the Xbox version which makes it dumbed down. I dont want to say it but i think this game is going to be a big disappointmet. THERE I SAID IT.

And i also need some advice on upgrading. whould you get a geforce4mx for 68$or a geforce3 ti for 65$??

MIBman
25th May 2003, 22:20
Get a Geforce 3 Ti. The MX series is based around DirectX 7 architecture which makes it basically a souped up Geforce 2 with a new label. The Geforce 3 has the perpixel lighting and shading and all that other DirectX8 crap. Personally I would buy a Geforce4 Ti 4200. Both the cards you mentioned are pretty obsolete and only the Geforce 3 is gonna be able to run Deus Ex 2 or Doom 3 with some of the pretty effects. Just make sure your getting hte Geforce 3 ti 500 and not the Geforce 3 Ti 200. The Ti 200 is actually just as slow as the Geforce 2 in many ways but has many more funtions needed for modern games. Gawd I really need to get out more. How the **** do i know all this geek information?

Herald
26th May 2003, 23:32
mx series is not strictly speaking dx7. gf4 mx is dx8 in terms of features, but similar in power and performance to the geforce 2 mx - basically, its an entry-level card despite the flashy geforce 4 name. youre right though, go for a geforce 3.

incidentally, the version of the mx with dx9 features supported is geforce fx 5200

MIBman
27th May 2003, 22:43
Naw I'm pretty sure The Geforce 4 MX is DirectX 7. It won't do that per pixel lighting and vertex shading that the Geforce 3 will do. The 5200 FX is DirectX 9 but its actually slower than the Geforce 4 Ti 4200 in several tests. Nvidia may have nice drivers but their newer cards suck. I still need to get an upgrade but teh Radeon 9500 is $150 right now and i need something to play Deus Ex 2, Doom 3, and Half-Life 2 with some nice settings.

brilliantcombat5
29th May 2003, 21:07
Thanks guys for the help. I found a 89$ geforce3ti500 128 mb by Gainward but 90 is a little steep at the moment, aside from playing bad video games i also hate spending money so i have to igure something out thanks for the info

sean74
29th May 2003, 21:43
You can't find a GeForce4 Ti4200 for under $100 yet? Honestly I'd spend the extra few bucks and get the Ti4200 if you can. maybe a Ti4400 if the price difference isn't too big.. but yeah definately stay away from MX cards.

Those cards whole reason for existance is for Retailers to say they their computer configuration has the latest GeForce card available and save a few bucks doing it.

Stormraven
31st May 2003, 03:10
Hey MIBman
Can't reach aug buttons in time? That's sad man.

When you've been playing DX for 3 years, you practically slam the entire F6-F7-F8-F9 button set at the slightest sound of waves crashing on the beach, just to activate Aggressive (and maybe even turn on Speed at the same time). It's kind of a reflex. It seperates the DXMP n00bs from the experts. If you hear the rocket, but can't think fast enough, then you're just not good enough. I watched my classmate (Exodus) play on my computer, and his hands were practically swimming back and forth from WASD to the F3-9 buttons. It's called efficiency. You (like the target audience Eidos is pointing DX2 at), are probably too dumb to think about turning on augs, and its for guys like you they dumbed the game down.

Also, if you're too lazy to map your keys, then you're not smart enough to play DX. We'd do anything just to give us an edge in a clan match

I would know. I've been in a couple of good DXMP clans

Q=Ballistic/Targeting-Aggressive
E=Speed
4, 5, 6 (DXMP grenade slots)= Combat Strength
3 (my sniper rifle slot)= Scope
Numpad 7, 8, 9 (DXMP multitool, lockpick, med slots)= Upgrade skills multitool, lockpick, medicine
Everything else in NumPad = MEDPACK!!!!

BTW: GO ZERO!! CRUSADER AGAINST DUMBED DOWN DX2!!

hey ur in [N/A] right?

Unless DX2 goes MP, i'm not buying it. I'd rather stick to MOH:AA

MIBman
4th Jun 2003, 23:11
Dude i haven't played Deus Ex for 2 years. I bought it when i came out and I've been waiting for the sequel for that long. I've only started on this forumever since they made the new website. Most people don't have the time to gain the instinctive ability to hit the right keys. Besides, doesn't anybody think that a simpler fully functional way to get to your augs is more efficient and player friendly? People who played the original can still remap the damn keys like in the original. Its fanatics like you who ruin games by insisting they be the same every year. Every version of Rainbow Six since the original came out in 97 has been virtually the same and Unreal Tounament 2003 stilll has all the problems from the original just because people can't accept change with improvements.

Stormraven
6th Jun 2003, 00:46
we don't want things to be the same every year. UT2003 was no different from its sequel, except for some warped up graphics, and am i rushing out to buy it? no0o0o0o0o.

We don't want things to be the same, we just want them to be similar, it is a sequel after all. And having the augmentations mapped that way isn't too bad either. It's just that some of us thought that they were too counterintuitive and hated it. but for the rest of us, it just seperated the DXMP vets from the n00bs. We loved DXMP because of its complexity. because it wasn't just another Quake clone. it was different from MOH:AA, different from Counter-Strike. sure those games were good by excelling at what they were designed to be, mindless shooters, but DX excelled by adding a new factor in multiplayer shooters. one that gives you a power bar and lets you use it to give yourself enhanced combat ability. Augmentations aren't bad. they're....different

and lets face it, there's no REAL good place to put 7 augmentation buttons and make them intuitive. it's different for every player. they all have their own sweet spot, and if they mapped every augmentation to a non-F* key, then it would be difficult to push the buttons. if it says "F7", you have a general idea of where the button is, but if it says "[", then it just gets confusing.

TheDerf
6th Jun 2003, 02:04
It was impossible reach the augs in time for a hectic situation. They need to change it to be more like the jedi knight control scheme or give an option. For instance it could be possible to use the "C" and "V" keys to cycle through the augs and then use the "F" key to activate the one your on. It would work waay better for multiplayer and make it easier for newer players.

I hate your idea MIB.

The last thing I want to be doing in a combat situation is scrolling through my augs with two keys. You talk about the augs are hard to access? This is harder! If it were me or any other person, we'd be fumbling past the aug(s) we want to turn on in an effort to select the augmentation as fast as possible. Then you gotta scroll back one or two. Then you gotta hit a button to turn it on. Then you gotta repeat steps 1-3 to get another aug. I'd prefer that every aug has its own key away from the controls I use, and it's just convienient that Ion Storm felt the same way I do when they set the default keys for Deus Ex.

MIBman
6th Jun 2003, 06:05
Well the last thing I would want is to fumble through 5 different keys for 5 different augs. I think using 2 keys is waaaay simpler and intuitive. It's not dumbing it down in any way just making it easier for new players until they can become accustomes to the augs they really need to map keys for. And besides its not like you would rely solely on the scrolling method to get to your augs. Some augs (like thermal sight) would usually need to have another key mapped eventually anyways. Having keys away from the keys you normally use cripples the player. Not only would you need to move your hand away from either the movement keys or the mouse which immobilizes you for the split second necessary for combat. That was the biggest flaw in the original control scheme and one reason why almost everybody on this forum complaining about keeping the old bogged down control scheme remapped the aug keys anyways!

TheDerf
6th Jun 2003, 08:40
Yes, you have to move your hand away from the movement controls, but it only takes .64828045437 seconds to select your augs and get on with it. With your idea, I'd take me 5-10 times longer to pick my aug(s). So by the time I get my augs selected, the enemy would have not only shot me several times, but he would have had my pants off and his zipper half way down.

MIBman
6th Jun 2003, 22:34
Well see that's you. According to Mister Rogers everybody's different yah. Most people would have a harder time doing it your way or at least would quit before picking it up. so quit being such a gosh darn facist nazi commie hitler man and let the rest of the world discover the greatness that is Deus Ex. Most of the people I know picked up Deus Ex and never got into it because it started off with such a castrated control system for NOOBs.

sean74
6th Jun 2003, 23:23
Originally posted by MIBman
Well the last thing I would want is to fumble through 5 different keys for 5 different augs. I think using 2 keys is waaaay simpler and intuitive. It's not dumbing it down in any way just making it easier for new players until they can become accustomes to the augs they really need to map keys for. And besides its not like you would rely solely on the scrolling method to get to your augs. Some augs (like thermal sight) would usually need to have another key mapped eventually anyways. Having keys away from the keys you normally use cripples the player. Not only would you need to move your hand away from either the movement keys or the mouse which immobilizes you for the split second necessary for combat. That was the biggest flaw in the original control scheme and one reason why almost everybody on this forum complaining about keeping the old bogged down control scheme remapped the aug keys anyways!

No offense, but you're just wrong.

I think the problem might be that you're not a touch-typist? I would assume that anyone that knows how to type would find it much easier to just press a single key and have it perform an action rather than have to cycle through a menu system with 2 keys and use a 3rd to select that item from the menu.

And while the upper F-keys aren't usually in reach for the left hand for a touch typist, you can remap keys. Look at your keyboard and count out the number of keys that (a touch typist)has access to with their left hand. That's how many options you have at your immediate disposal.

One of the things that makes PC games much cooler than console games.. you get what, 12 keys max on a console's gamepad? I count 28 easily reachable keys with the left hand, and another 7+ if you're willing to reach past what your left hand is usually responsible for all without ever moving your hand off it's home-position.

I never took the time to map the augs to anything other than the F-keys, but even with having to move my hand up to reach them I didn't have a problem remembering which ones do what, or finding them when I needed them. I certainly found them easier to use than a menu system would have been (and keep in mind I'm using "menu" in a loose way.. scrolling through selections like you're saying is in fact a rudimentary menu system)

sean74
6th Jun 2003, 23:28
Originally posted by MIBman
Well see that's you. According to Mister Rogers everybody's different yah. Most people would have a harder time doing it your way or at least would quit before picking it up. so quit being such a gosh darn facist nazi commie hitler man and let the rest of the world discover the greatness that is Deus Ex. Most of the people I know picked up Deus Ex and never got into it because it started off with such a castrated control system for NOOBs.

and if anyone is being a nazi here it's you. TheDerf is just commenting on the fact that your idea seems unacceptably slow to him (and with good reason) and you're getting your panties in a bunch over it insisting that your way is the only correct way.

The only thing I think they could have done better in DX1 with regards to the keybindings is making it a little more user-friendly to set them. I hadn't realized that you could set the augs to non-F-Keys until I messed around editting User.ini's on other games and realized it was possible

MIBman
7th Jun 2003, 01:12
yah but my way is to let everyobdy pick which way they wanna have it

NoNicknameForMe
7th Jun 2003, 17:44
Well if you can't controll the game chances are you shouldnt be playing it anyhow, just because you buy a Porsche dosent mean you learn how to drive for crap...

MIBman
8th Jun 2003, 00:00
Exactly that's why you want to make it simpler to drive. ION Storm wants more people to play it right? Thats why making the control system more intuitive is a GOOD thing. Shouldn't be playing such a great game in the first place? You bloody Nazi.

sean74
8th Jun 2003, 04:49
I'm all for them offering the chance for a dumbed-down interface, so "special" people like MIBman here can play, but only if it's an option, and doesn't involve removing any of the controls involved that helped make DX1 so great.

If every key on the keyboard did something different that's fine by me, just so long as they don't ruin the thing by trying to reduce your options to keys that those mouth-breathing "arrow key" users can reach :p

Big Ragu
8th Jun 2003, 19:03
What was so complicated about the original interface, seemed pretty straight forward and easy to use to me?

NoNicknameForMe
9th Jun 2003, 02:20
/me nods at Big Ragu in agreement.


My point was if you cant controll the game, it wasn't that hard, then you have no chance in hell of understanding the real complicated things, like plot.

Big Ragu
9th Jun 2003, 03:21
I agree.

HippieHunter
9th Jun 2003, 03:43
MIBman, it's just that your too friggin lazy. Having to cycle augs is more stupid than jumping off a bridge. because if you miss the aug you need, you have to cycle through to find it again.It's pretty easy to hit the f keys.

Big Ragu
9th Jun 2003, 03:50
I mean, if you need a certain aug incase you find yourself in a gunfight, you don't want to find yourself cycling through augs to find the one you want. Thats takes way too much time, it takes less to just a a "f" key.

MIBman
9th Jun 2003, 04:03
Okay I surrender. Gimme a break I discovered Deus Ex before I discovered Half-Life k. It was like the first modern fps I'd played next to DOOM at the time so of course I would have trouble learning the interface. I haven't touched it in a year. But I think you guys need to understand that just cause you're all accustomed to one system and are good at it doesn't mean it's gonna work for everybody else. Its just like the game itself. You got multiple augs for the same key spots and you customize it depending on which augs you want. Now you might hop on over to your friends house and play it but it might be different. Cloak might be radar. Long jump might be silent footsteps. Everybody's different and just because somebody finds it harders to use one interface doesn't mean ya gotta shut him out right? A lot of people responded by saying they didn't want a dumbed down interface. Well, hell, I say intuitive is not dumbed down dammit. A lot of people who never played the first game are gonna be playing this one and those guys aren't gonna like the old interface with all the keys that needed to be used back from 2000. I bet a lot of those guys are gonna be hitting their autosave keys and turning on the high jump guys. Anyways that's all I got to say. I just don't want my mailbox filled with nothing but stuff from this forum no more.

sean74
9th Jun 2003, 04:07
edit your user settings so that you no longer receive emails when someone replies to your posts.

MIBman
9th Jun 2003, 04:27
thanks but I'd like to have some notification for some other threads.

FrogBlastTheVentcore
28th Jun 2003, 05:12
Holy crap. You are all fighting about controls. Set it the way YOU feel comfortable playing and mind your own business. Just because you feel that your way is better doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna think so too, but people, in their stupid ways of never letting anything go, just keep on fighting about it, even though they have already made their point about 2 billion times. Let it go. Just allow people to set their own controls and mind your own damn business.

MIBman
28th Jun 2003, 06:05
Actually we stopped arguing about it almost 20 days before you made your post. I said that we should let people set the controls like they feel onlyt there should at least be an OPTION to toggle the augs around ya know.

Loreleye
3rd Jul 2003, 17:56
Ok, first of all, What is best is in the eyes of each and everyone of us. Thats a fact!
Efficency aint always best! And MIB it is cuz of guys like you that this game might not be as big hit as the first game, cuz it is simplified!

Daywalkermi
14th Jul 2003, 00:48
Each time I try a new game (which is quite often, as I enjoy downloading all sorts of demos) I go into options and then controls. If I want F5 to be my quicksave button i change it. I don't, however, go to the nearest board and whine about the default settings being different from what I am accustomed to... I CERTENLY don't suggest that they should take an important part of the game and cripple it because the default setting confuses my little head, and even if I did, I would never say that people who disagreed were nazis, cause that would insult my own intellect so much more than theirs...:mad:

ahh that felt nice, now i can sleep peacefully :o...