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fneh
22nd May 2003, 11:31
If raziel's soul is the Soul reaver then surely it allows a paradox to be made if he has the wraith blade right?

I believe the reason 2 soul reavers coming together can make a paradox is because it is raziel's soul within them. The only soul in all of Nosgoth that has free will. Making the paradox is a display of this. Surely this would mean that raziel doesn't need 2 soul reavers to make a paradox if he already is one anyway?

for me to be wrong would mean that raziel isn't actually the soul reaver anymore. Perhaps kain will use Turel or something and that's why the soul reaver has changed in defiance.

Of course this still raises the question of why the reaver was destroyed when it hit raziel. I have 2 theories on this that aren't too great:

1. All the vamp Lts. had a portion of kains soul within them. If turels soul is in the soul reaver then all the Lts. are unable to be harmed by it because of the portion of kains soul being unable to devour itself. This would also explain story wise why the soul reaver couldn't harm any of the bosses (for the last encounter with kain in SR1 it was rewritten in the SR2 into where the reaver never struck kain to back me up there)

2. raziel really is invincible like he suggested to the elder towards the end of SR2.


what does everyone think?


EDIT - KAN'T SPELL

darien_specter
22nd May 2003, 16:06
Raziel himself points out at the end of SR2 that the Reaver shatters on him because it can't devour its own soul; it couldn't kill him because it would be killing itself. Whether Kain changed any of that by yanking the Reaver out of Raziel, we don't know; but it still must be true for SR1 because that's what happened to Kain and Raziel before their experiences in Defiance, and Raziel's memories haven't changed, so everything that we played as him is the same. Can't be as sure about BO though, I suppose...

fneh
22nd May 2003, 20:55
Amy Henning said herself that just because Raziel says something doesn't make it true.

I'm sure we all know raziel to be far from the smartest being in Nosgoth don't we?

Vampmaster
23rd May 2003, 10:41
If Raziel tried to use the wraith blade on himself it would cause a paradox because if the WB consumes him it never gets created in the first place because there'd be none of his soul left to create it from.

EDIT: I'm glad you said that about Raziel. It means he still might find a way to have the Reaver without completely absorbing him.

warpsavant
23rd May 2003, 19:41
You can't change the course of a river by throwing in pebbles. But if you throw enough pebbles....

1. No, the Soul Reaver is Raziel.

2. I don't know. Maybe.

fneh
24th May 2003, 22:55
I have another point to make that can back me up assuming the soul reaver is turel unless anyone can correct me here:


Moebius' staff disables vampires. Why does it disable the wraith blade? Raziel is unaffected by the staff and if the wraith blade shared his soul surely raziel would also be vunerable in the staff's presence right? I don't remember him being though, do you? Turel IS a Vampire and for all we know he suffered the same fate as dumah (being staked and forced to remain in the spectral realm until he was released from his staking) making him a wraith


EDIT: but for me to be right here then that would mean that reaziel was never supposed to be the soul reaver at all and the SR2 ending without kain making the paradox would have had to be a paradox if raziel was devoured too. Remember moby set this 'false destiny' as so many of you call it (which explains why raziel was the savior of nosgoth even though he'd have to be it inside the sword somehow) very carefully. He made sure there were 2.................


wait a minute!!!!! Don't you need 2 SOUL reavers to make a paradox????? there was only one during the paradox at the end of SR2. The 2nd reaver was a blood reaver.......does this mean that both incarnations of the reaver can make paradoxes when they cross or is it just a massive plot hole?

someguysteve
25th May 2003, 02:08
wait a minute!!!!! Don't you need 2 SOUL reavers to make a paradox????? there was only one during the paradox at the end of SR2. The 2nd reaver was a blood reaver.......does this mean that both incarnations of the reaver can make paradoxes when they cross or is it just a massive plot hole?

i haven't played SR2 in a while but there was no paradox at Janos' keep when it was only the blood reaver so i think it has to be two soul reavers or maybe two blood reavers (i don't know if this occurs in BO) anyway maybe there is no paradox with the orignal soul reaver and Raziel because Raziel's soul was changed somewhat while in the sword (in SR when the blade is broken it didn't turn into another Raziel) or maybe while the reaver is bonded to his arm they act like one entity since its the same soul.

were you talking about the last paradox when Raziel was impaled? or some other one that i've forgotten of

fneh
25th May 2003, 10:40
Originally posted by someguysteve
i haven't played SR2 in a while but there was no paradox at Janos' keep when it was only the blood reaver so i think it has to be two soul reavers or maybe two blood reavers (i don't know if this occurs in BO) anyway maybe there is no paradox with the orignal soul reaver and Raziel because Raziel's soul was changed somewhat while in the sword (in SR when the blade is broken it didn't turn into another Raziel) or maybe while the reaver is bonded to his arm they act like one entity since its the same soul.

were you talking about the last paradox when Raziel was impaled? or some other one that i've forgotten of


at the very end when kain saved raziel. He shouldn't have been able to do it because the only soul reaver there was the wraith blade. The physical blade was the blood reaver. Unless raziel really is capable of making paradoxes with only having his 'twinned soul' then there's a MASSIVE plot hole there

Vampmaster
25th May 2003, 13:42
There's not a plot hole: There's one Soul Reaver (the WB) coiled around the Blood Reaver and because Raziel is both inside and outside of the Blood Reaver, he is both himself AND the second wraith blade that is being created within it. So there's two: the wraith blade that Raz has been carrying around and the earlier one that he's being turned into.

fneh
25th May 2003, 14:24
Oh I see. So even though raziel's soul left the blood reaver it was still the soul reaver for that instant where kain pulled out the reaver. I wonder why it didn't stay as the soul reaver? How can a soul leave the reaver after it's been devoured?

Ardeth Silvereni
25th May 2003, 23:36
How can a soul leave the reaver after it's been devoured?

I think the Blood Reaver hadn't had enough time to get a proper grip on Raziel's soul. I expect the Reaver (twinned with the wraith blade) had to work much harder than usual to extract Raziel's soul from his body, as it was continually fighting the paradox that said it wasn't possible.

If the wraith-blade soul is capable of feeling pain, it may have also have been holding back slightly. Devouring its former incarnation may have hurt it.

I would liken it to ripping your arm out of a lion's mouth. The lion has eaten your arm by some definitions, but there is a big difference between eating and digesting.
By the look of the agony Raz was in, I think this is appropriate. :)

Vampmaster
26th May 2003, 14:25
Actually I don't think Raziel's soul can be consumed. Raziel said that the reaver could not devour it's own soul and that the paradox of it trying shattered the blade in SR1. It can however imprison him in the Blood Reaver which is not the same as consuming him.

Kazumitsu
26th May 2003, 15:52
OK noe of this may make sence but i'll ry.

For a paradox Raz has to have a wraith blade ad the wraithblade in the soul reaver that makes it the soul reaver rather tan the blood reaver.

theres a thiry i read about ages ago that all the atoms in hte univerceare connectd and you can calculate the path of all of them by looking at one thereticaly so everything is predestaned. an atom will be affected by all the other attoms around it and them by all hte other attoms around it so there is no real random actions. theres another one that says if you meed yourself and ou shake your hand you will blow up our hand as attoms that are exactly thesame don't like it and seace to exist. what if thats not what hapens what if raz's twin souls one out one in the reaver if they are together are enough to start to let the attoms be truly random like the twin souls trying to exist in the same place jolt the atoms around them into randomness creating the potential for a paradox. in the scene with moe and he reaver being fixed by the wraithblade nothing realy important happend there was the potential but nothing realy happend soraz didn't create a paradox there it only the potentail.

this also means it has to be Raz's soul in the reaver and he wraith blade becaue in the last scene in SR2 Raziel is getting his soul pulled into the blood reaver that the wraith blade is useing in order tro eat it and put it somewhere the souls trying to inhabit the same space again caues the potentialfo a paradox and Kain pulling out the reaver is waht caused the paradox. at that point if it was someones soul inhte wraith blade then there would be no paradox potentail.

The wraith blade was able to start to devower Raziels soul becaue it can store it somewhere where as befoe there as no wnere to put it it coudn't eat itself so the wraith blade gave he blood reaver the means to devower souls. like through the blood reaver raz is ale to take the blood from his victims. as raz sid his soul was half in eh blade and half out of it just enough in the blade for the wraith blade to start to react to razes soul but not enough or the blade to have a perminant hold on his soul.

ok this is just a hole loud of therios here.

fneh
26th May 2003, 16:08
I assume your first language isn't english Kazumitsu?




Vamp. You're wrong about the whole reaver cannot devour it's own soul. That comment was regarding when kain struck raziel and his soul was inside the reaver. At the end of SR2 the reaver didn't have a soul to devour. It was empty but because there was no blood for it to feed on and the wraith blade was so arroused it tried to tke raziel's blood. As we know he doesn't have blood, only his soul, so it tried to take that. It wasn't trying to imprision him as such. more so it was trying to feed from him.


Now I'll try to make sense of Kazumitsu's reply:


hmm......I sort of understand you. but no. That wouldn't work. the wraith blade is raziels soul as far as we're concerned right? then if your atom theory is right then how can the wraith blade exist if it is connected to raziel? Are you implying that the atoms have changed into something else? If that was true then you pretty much said that the wraith blade IS NOT raziel because they couldn't possibly exist together.


Correct me if I'm wrong in my reply. I couldn't understand it properly

darien_specter
26th May 2003, 20:17
The wraith blade wouldn't have tried to take Raziel's blood; it feeds on souls. I'm not sure how you support the claim that the Reaver was merely trying to continue feeding on Raziel. Whatever the reason or cause, its attack on him was different from its original vampiric forging. He describes the wraith blade as 'the ravenous soul-devouring entity trapped in the blade'. It seems to indicate that the wraith blade is distinct from the physical sword that houses it; and so the Reaver's attack on him must have been of a different nature...

fneh
26th May 2003, 21:03
this is getting way too complicated. I don't think anyone knows what anyone else is actually saying now!

darien_specter
26th May 2003, 21:22
how true... :D

Kazumitsu
26th May 2003, 22:41
Me and my damn dyslexia its sometimes bad anot other times i can manage things like this ok just i don't know when i'll get good day. its not even suposed to be like that but it is. i'm from England and english is suposed to be my first languige but i think my first languige is doble dutch :p

Its why i don't post much.

Raziel's soul when its traped in the reaver has to be alterd to do that some how thaen its simeler enough to the raith blade to cause possable paradoxes. Wile Raziel is still Rraziel he's diffrent enough from the wraith blade to be able to keep it on his arm. there'd have more changes in his soul than just she shape.

I'll start to confuse myeslf here sooner or later

fneh
26th May 2003, 23:14
dude, I'm sorry if I offended you. I had no idea you were dyslexic.

It shouldn't put you off posting though. Afterall, you can't help it. I know a few people that are dyslexic, but I've never known anyone that was particularly bad with it.

I can just about make out what you mean (thanks to ICQ there where I have no end of horny girls from all over the world trying to talk to me in not too great english)

Kazumitsu
26th May 2003, 23:26
Don't worry you didn't offemd me i know how bad i am.

jesta
28th May 2003, 23:27
wait a minute!!!!! Don't you need 2 SOUL reavers to make a paradox????? there was only one during the paradox at the end of SR2. The 2nd reaver was a blood reaver.......does this mean that both incarnations of the reaver can make paradoxes when they cross or is it just a massive plot hole?

This is Just The by product of an erlier paradox when Kain was not kiled by Raziel enabling him to be there to Pull out the Rever.
as it was him that persuaded raziel not to kill him so he could do that in the first place

And to Quote Kain History is Imuteable , he then goes on to explaine that history an only be changed by the Reaver meeting its former/future self but just suposing that he is rong and there are other ways to change history but he may not know this.

after all Amy Henning has said that just because one character says somthing does not mean its true.

time travel in its self is a complicated subdject that can tie your brain in knots just thinking aout it. Besides there has to be some leaway to the writers of the game for some lose ends if there are any Because they did modifiy the story from SR1 which was going to end in a totaly diferent way to how it did......

Vampmaster
29th May 2003, 09:13
Originally posted by fneh
Vamp. You're wrong about the whole reaver cannot devour it's own soul. That comment was regarding when kain struck raziel and his soul was inside the reaver. At the end of SR2 the reaver didn't have a soul to devour. It was empty but because there was no blood for it to feed on and the wraith blade was so arroused it tried to tke raziel's blood. As we know he doesn't have blood, only his soul, so it tried to take that. It wasn't trying to imprision him as such. more so it was trying to feed from him.


I'm OK with this (the Blood Reaver consuming him), but I thought you meant the wraith blade had gone inside the Blood Reaver (making it the Soul Reaver again) and that would be the same type of paradox that shattered the blade in SR1.

fneh
29th May 2003, 11:20
no vamp but in all honesty I think I lost track of what we were saying to each other a good few posts ago and started ranting whatever came to mind :D :rolleyes:


And Jesta: Kain pulling the reaver from raziel wasn't a result of kain surviving because a new paradox was made. Kain got new memories and time had to re shuffle (which was quite a task as we saw).


As said above the only explanation is that raziel's soul was inside the reaver (afterall that is what the edge of the coin was. Kain could have pulled the reaver out at any earlier time if raziel didn't need to have forged the soul reaver) but didn't stay inside the reaver as Kain originally planned.


One thing that gets me though is the pic of kain and raziel fighting on the website. I mean Kain risked everything to save raziel. Why would raziel want to kill kain again? has the spectral realm turned him into a kain hater again and he won't see reason in anything he says? I hope not. While I like the idea of raziel becoming a complete evil bastard, I don't want him to just start killing everything mindlessly because he's angry. C'mon! I mean raziel went through his teenager stage in SR1.....and SR2....I want the poor little guy to actually get some kind of brains this time instead of being SO naiive(sp?) and....well stupid

dangerizer
29th May 2003, 15:37
I read an article in a magazine raz is supposed to become far more sinistar through the course of the game....more like he begins to change somehow.

Threnodi
27th Jun 2003, 23:23
Originally posted by fneh
While I like the idea of raziel becoming a complete evil bastard, I don't want him to just start killing everything mindlessly because he's angry. C'mon!


I sorta hope Raziel doesn't go evil on us. That's just me, but I think the way him and kain have gone through so much, and still ended up focusing compass style on their constructive, or to use Janos' word, "benevolent" destinies despite all the stuff they've been dragged through...well I'd hate for Raziel to be going through the next game blinded by rage again, only this time at mobius and the EG. And I don't know how else he could be 'evil' after discovering the "human side of vampires" and the "monstrous side of humans" or however he put it. He's realised he can't simply align himself with any one sect or group. And I mean Kain allready did that going-evil thing, and seems to be reconsidering. I'm hoping raziel won't have to go through that stage to get anywhere, I thought he'd sort of toyed with it in SR1 and in SR2 was coming more around to kain's way of thinking, i.e. to spit in the eye of the dark forces manipulating them and be a force for good in all their blood sucking soul reaving vampiric/demonic glory, in spite of everything these manipulating forces have had them do.
In short, I don't really wanna see Raziel be a "complete evil bastard" -or- killing everything mindlessly...If he's doing dark nasty things I at least wanna get to see him doing them in that attitude he had in SR2 like 'well now you've pulled me through all this horror to make me what I am...and just perhaps you pushed things a notch to far, and you'll find the thing I am now can start pulling back.' And the more he learns, the less uncertainty he'll have to dull this attitude, and the more focused (and well, guess nasty) he can be. If that's what you mean by "complete evil bastard" then I guess we're on the same page. ;)

How did you mean it? I keep being surprised by all these people who seem to want Raziel to be "evil". Maybe I'm just using the wrong definition.

Vampmaster
28th Jun 2003, 12:04
I don't think he's going to be evil. I reckon he'll be really angry so he'll trust nobody and take it out on anyone. I think he'll still do what he has to, but he'll have to watch doesn't kill the wrong person.

fneh
28th Jun 2003, 13:36
I just hope he stops being such a dumbass.....

Dace
28th Jun 2003, 18:34
He's not really a dumbass. He's being munlipated but even Kain was munlipated and no one felt he was a dumbass. I just think he has this innocence about him. So he's all to willing to trust people till they prove themselves unworthy of his trust. Look how he deals with a person after he found out he couldn't trust them.

someguysteve
28th Jun 2003, 19:09
I just hope he stops being such a dumbass.....

i've heard stuff like this before, but i've never really seen it in the game. in sr1 he does try to kill kain and does kill his brothers. but he probable had to gain those powers and i don't think anyone thought that squiddy was lying.

in sr2 he maybe should have killed moebious, but besides that his only mistake that i can think of is making a path for the sarafan, but nobody expectted that did they? and he did defy history when he didn't kill Kain, all of history. no one ever says anything about that do they.

fneh
28th Jun 2003, 19:28
he's a dumbass because he constantly says how smart he is and KNEW moebius was a great manipulator yet STILL fell for his trap and didn't kill him when he had the chance.

Also, he led the sarafan right to Janos without even thinking.

AND he keeps ranting crap to everyone like he knows everything. He did it to the elder all the time and kain too. He's like a brooding teenager blinded by hormones!

RAZIEL IS STILL ON PUBERTY!!!!!!!:D

Maybe in defiance he's finished and is all angry because he has realised how stoopid he's been in SR2

Dace
29th Jun 2003, 05:38
I hardly consider his attitude or behavior to be a sign of him being a dumb ass. His tone is most often condescending. He is defantly arrogant. Aggorance can lead one to do stupid things. He thinks he knows what's going on but only see's half the story.

He's going up against creatures who have had more time at the game than he has. Not to mention that some of them like the elder god and Moebius. well Kain too, have access to seeing the future. It's kinda hard to get the drop on someone when they already know what you are going to do.

I don't think Raziel's problem is that he's a dumbass. I think his problem is his arrogance and later self rightousness. Leading the Sarafan to Janos was a mistake. But something he did not think about. He was blind to that because he was on a quest to find the truth. He was arrogant enough to not consider he'd be followed.

As for Moebuis, he needed him. He did not know how to work the time streaming devices so he trusted the man to do the right thing. Which he didn't but you know thats what leaps of faith are all about.

Vampmaster
29th Jun 2003, 10:57
I think it's a no-brainer that there are going to be dark forces and manipulators in the game. And it's said in previews and such that they're against the hylden.

someguysteve
29th Jun 2003, 18:40
i was thinking about Moebious and Raziel would only know as much as Kain told him and Kain isn't likely to tell them how completely moebious used him. all the brothers sitting in a cirlce around Kain, Dumah: tells us about the time Moebious made you unleash a genocidal war against your own race.

fneh
29th Jun 2003, 21:09
ACtually I was under the impression the hylden were banished to the demon world because they were ENEMIES. Why BANISH someone to their allys domain?:rolleyes:


Raziel said in the first game about moebius manipulating kain and at the start of sr2 raziel said how he knew about his schemes. KAIN SAID to raziel about how he was made the last vamp when they were in William's chapel. Raziel carried on as though he'd been told this a thousand times (which he probably had seeing as the vamps were always so bored)

Threnodi
2nd Jul 2003, 21:28
Mm I don't think Raz was really all that especially dumb either. First off, bear in mind that as far as he can remember he's been a vampire lord who could do nearly anything he wanted at any time (save maybe growing wings without permission. ;) He's probably not used to having to be on his toes and think of consequenses....I think after Janos though he's learning hard.

About not killing Mobius, we saw when he tried -not- to kill Kain what an effort that was, taking all the will he could muster or something simmilar I think he said. The first time he had a 'chance' to kill Mobius he didn't even have the wraith blade cuz Mobius' staff nulled it, the second time, he did in fact have both Reavers, in William's chapel, but he had no understanding of how history can compel you to take it's course, and didn't have anyone there to make him realise this was the case. I'm betting that same history force that tried to force him to kill Kain was there, nudging him as nessisary to make sure he didn't kill Mobeus, and he didn't have the experience to fight it. So that's not really being stupid as much as inexperienced.

And as for Janos...is there anyone here who guessed right off the bat that the Sarifan would follow? I sure didn't. And after all, he's just coming to terms with the idea of time travel and immutability and what with all...It probably never occured to him history's current course involved him sealing Janos' fate, after all, he was from the future, right? He technically shouldn't be able to effect anything major without one of those huge efforts of will. I don't think it occured to him he really would have to watch out for traps like that, because he was in the mindset he wouldn't be able to do anything catastrofic without really concentrating on it.

As for his arrogence...heh, yup that's Raz. But again, if you were being toyed around like he is, wouldn't you want to throw it in everyon'es face if you thought you could get away with it? And untill Janos and the very end, he -was- getting away with it. I think he fooled himself into thinking he was the one with the upper hand for a bit. And really....he does have an ace. The fact he can change history. They may be manipulating him, but one fateful decision like not killing kain...he can do that kinda stuff if he can just avoid the pitfalls on the way.

So...just inexperienced. It'll be nice when he actually knows enough to make his arrogent taunts stick without nearly getting sucked into a sword or getting his friends killed. ;)

Vampmaster
3rd Jul 2003, 19:59
Originally posted by DJpick
I think it's a no-brainer that there are going to be dark forces and manipulators in the game. And it's said in previews and such that they're against the hylden.
Where? I was under the impression the demons and Hylden were working together, but the demons were just stronger, and therefore had a better chance to defeat Raziel.


Well according to gamespress:


They are pitched against the Hylden; a force so evil that these two embittered rivals must unite. Taking on the role of Kain and Raziel in alternating chapters, you must battle through a world loaded with conflict and intrigue in order to defeat the dark forces that threaten to condemn the land of Nosgoth to eternal damnation.

There's other sites that said the same thing, but I couldn't find which ones. BTW, I thought you'd said to Dace "How do you know they're in a game?" and not "You sayin they know they're in a game?". That was what was confusing me.

Dark God Francisco
4th Jul 2003, 03:42
I don't think Raz can make a paradox with just the wraith blade and himself since every time he made a paradox he had himself,the wraith blade and the physical blade.

Vampmaster
4th Jul 2003, 18:27
Yeah, I got what you meant afterwards.