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Vampmaster
20th May 2003, 12:34
This is a new theory based on an old one. I suggested that the abyss could be a construction of the Elder or something and in a different theory I suggested that he might have created the demons (not the hylden, they are different) from members of the other races. Well that if the abyss is what the Elder uses to make the demons and Raziel is some how immune. That would mean that Raziel could have demonic abilities that would allow him to fight them and the Elder himself and he would already have the soul reaving ability from being a vampire before being thrown into the abyss. Yet unlike the demons Raziel is beyond the Elder's control, making Raziel the one being capable of defeating the demons and stopping the Elder.

Vampmaster
20th May 2003, 12:41
Thought of more:

If creating vampires means stealing a soul from the abyss, then (in my theory at least) that means that all the vampires created using Kains method could have been partly demonised. That might explain why the brethren and the clans became so deformed. Also it could explain Voradors statement about Raz being more demon than vampire.

EDIT: If the Elder gets his tenticals on Janos then maybe Janos would become the Elders most powerful weapon against his enemies. (Alternatively he may already have done this and let Janos maintain his original form to fool Raziel. If Janos is evil it may be Squiddys fault.) If the hylden were actually his strongest enemies and he decided to use the ancients against them. What if the reason the hylden want to destroy every being in Nosgoth because they beleive that they have been imprisoned in their dimension that the Elder has taken over so much of Nosgoth that it has become to dangerous to allow any potential slave of the Elder.

EDIT 2:

I might have to assume it takes a long time (a millenium or so) to produce a demon if that would have been a hole in my theory.

What if the ancients didn't only make the lock and key, but opened the gate in the first place. They could have wanted to imprison the hylden and (unintentionally) let Squiddy out in the process.

fneh
21st May 2003, 11:34
I like the idea of squiddy creating the abyss but creating demons in it? the only people that got thrown in there were 'traitors and weaklings'. What good would an army of weakling demons be to squiddy?

Vampmaster
21st May 2003, 13:23
Well if they were turned into demons they wouldn't be weak anymore and if they were enslaved by the Elders will, they wouldn't be able to betray him. I think the abyss existed long before Kain even thought of a use for it. So maybe more powerful warriors could have once been absorbed into it. I think it might just be their souls that are used to make the demons. They'd just be sucked in from anywhere or maybe just lost souls wander in from time to time. The wheel of fate the Elder talks about could mean the souls are reborn as demons.

fneh
21st May 2003, 13:32
If the abyss turned vampires into demons why did raziel get burned away in the water? Why didn't raz turn into a big nasty demon?

vampires burn to nothing in the abyss. afterall it's water.

the most squiddy could do is use their souls and he wouldn't need to do that when there's souls all over the place for him to use. he could even use hylden sould or sarafan souls if he wanted if that was the case. using weakling vampire sould would be pointless, especially seeing as the demons are being pitted against raziel (and IMO kain in the end boss of BO)

madcdcd
21st May 2003, 14:30
I'm not quite as well versed as some, but there is the small question of if the Elder had enough time to create an entire army of demons. After all, the abyss didn't exist in the times of Raz's travels in SR2, right?
If I understand correctly, (and don't misunderstand, I could be waaayy off) That leaves only about a millenium at most. If it takes about that long to create one demon, where did the army come from?
I'm sure you folks can enlighten a fledgling such as myself.:D

fneh
21st May 2003, 14:48
I agree little fledgling.

Raziel was in the abyss for centuries, there must have been at least 30 of those demons in SR2 alone. that's a LONG time making them isn't it?

Also the Hylden were banished to the demon dimension. this suggests (to put it lightly) that there is an entire world full of the things. The elder just 'borrows' them for a time.

madcdcd
21st May 2003, 15:18
But how could squiddy pull demons from the other dimension and not let the Hylden out? Or am I thinking of the wrong place?
After all we're assuming that the Elder and the Hylden are enemies of a sort, no?

fneh
21st May 2003, 17:16
We don't know enough about the elder to assume that. He does exist in both spectral and physical planes though. thee's no reason why qood old squiddy can't exist in the demon plane too.


I'm sure it'll all be explained if everyone can just be patient.

Vampmaster
21st May 2003, 18:47
Originally posted by fneh
If the abyss turned vampires into demons why did raziel get burned away in the water? Why didn't raz turn into a big nasty demon?

vampires burn to nothing in the abyss. afterall it's water.

the most squiddy could do is use their souls and he wouldn't need to do that when there's souls all over the place for him to use. he could even use hylden sould or sarafan souls if he wanted if that was the case. using weakling vampire sould would be pointless, especially seeing as the demons are being pitted against raziel (and IMO kain in the end boss of BO)

I'm sure the abyss is more than just water. If the abyss was only for traiters and weaklings in Kains empire then that would mean Kain made the abyss. I don't think it's just a big waterfall otherwise Kain wouldn't mind if the weaklings were just put in any old pond. Also if you jump in to the abyss even after consuming Rahabs soul, it still kills you. So there must be something special about it.

I think it had a darker purpose before Kain decided to only put weaklings in there. The lake of the dead is depicted on the BO1 map. If ancients or hylden were put through the abyss at the time during their war they would certainly have time to be demonised by SR2's time period.

Assuming the Hylden are the Elders enemies is not compulsory to my theory. The first part still makes sense if you ignore that part. However if Squiddy just decided to keep the souls of dead ones around from before the banishment and then demonise them when he needs to. I think the demons are more likely to be made from ancients anyway. If the hylden are his enemies, I don't think he wants them banished either, he'd want to wipe them out and then do the same to them as the ancients. Maybe the abyss is doing a similar thing to what was happening to make dark eden. It could be making Nosgoth like his own dimention.

madcdcd
22nd May 2003, 00:51
Is there somewhere I can see a timeline of Nosgoth including the events from BO2? Because now I don't know when the demons were on Nosgoth and when the Hylden were on it.
Not that it much matters, since who's enemies with whom doesn't affect the theory in question, (I think).
By the way, do we know that Kain is the one responsible for the abyss? I have to admit that I haven't played either BO game, and am not the most fluent in who's who and what's what.

But I do have to say that I read some of the most fascinating theories imaginable lately. :cool:

So anyway, if someone can point me in the right direction, I'd be much obliged.

hippiechk
22nd May 2003, 02:11
I had a better one and can't seem to find it right now. But this link should help you. (http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timeline.html)

Reaper007
22nd May 2003, 07:02
Originally posted by Vampmaster
What if the reason the hylden want to destroy every being in Nosgoth because they beleive that they have been imprisoned in their dimension that the Elder has taken over so much of Nosgoth that it has become to dangerous to allow any potential slave of the Elder. i have a hypothesis here, that the hylden were going to kill everyone to feed the elder, by doing so would cause the elder to undergo some sort of transformation(open a portal to the hylden dimension, etc). i know that in BO2 they didnt bring up the elder but keep in mind they would have never had to meet, they would only have to know of him(it).


Originally posted by Vampmaster
What if the ancients didn't only make the lock and key, but opened the gate in the first place. They could have wanted to imprison the hylden and (unintentionally) let Squiddy out in the process. i really like this thought it explains where he came from and how (in my hypothesis) they may know of him(it).

EDIT: i had a thought about the elder and the hyldens exchanging places(i'm going into actual science here). one popular thought is that if people did go dimension hopping an exchange would have to take place to keep the balance so to speak. for instance if u hopped ur double from that demension would be pushed into the dimension u just left to take ur place. in the case of the elder and hyldens i'm guessing the eldars powers represent the hylden in numbers, and the growth of his powers over the years = the hylden reproducing in the other dimension. in BO2 we find out some hylden have slipped back into nosgoth with nothing being pushed back into their dimension, so something had to happen to achieve balance, this is where kain comes in and stops them, finding the balance again. ironic how kain restores the balance and he is supposed to be the balance guardian.

EDIT 2: that would mean that by killing the elder u kill the hyldens and vice versa.

Reaper007

Vampmaster
22nd May 2003, 10:28
I meant unless Kain made the abyss (which I doubt because it's on the BO1 map), then it won't have always been used for weaklings. By the way Raziel wasn't that weak - he was Kains strongest son. If it's their souls that are used to make the demons then how strong their physical bodies were wouldn't make any difference to how strong the demon was.

The demons havn't always been in Nosgoth at the same time as the hylden. There were very few (none in the game) BO1/SR2 type demons in BO2, but there were lots of hylden. On the other hand there were very few hylden in the other games, but the other types of demons were in SR2 and BO1.

I don't think the word dimension (in Nosgoth) means like an alternate time line where there's an alternate version of your self. AFAIK, it can mean alternate time lines (eg Sliders), but it can also mean (x, y, z) axis of a graph or theoretical (a, b, c..... ) axis or possible directions corresponding to those axis. There's a few meanings to it. Yours is one meaning, but for my theories I assume it just means a place that you need a portal or something to get to. It seems like that's what the LOK writers mean by it.

Lozza Mate
22nd May 2003, 10:35
Originally posted by Vampmaster
Also it could explain Voradors statement about Raz being more demon than vampire.
I believe Vorador was speaking aesthetically when he said that. as in if he isn't a human and not a vampire then the only thing left is demon. and demons aren't a specific race they are like the term 'monster': something that hasn't been classified.

Vampmaster
22nd May 2003, 10:56
If it turned out true then Vor's statement would add to it. That's all I meant. It also seemed Vor was speculating that Raz's appearance might have some meaning to it. Even before his dunking, his wings were demonic. Perhaps they were supposed to be feathered or Vor just didn't know what to expect.

I don't think that the demons are a race. (I don't even think the hylden are demons) However I do think there are different types of demon and that types with similar traits will have a similar origin. For example ones from the hylden dimention look similar, the SR2 ones are all huge with spectral abilities and then the devolved vamps from SR2 could be considered a type of demon.

fneh
22nd May 2003, 11:10
the lake of the dead IS on the BO1 map. I have the copy that came with my PC version right here. it's pretty muchj in the middle of the map. no mention of the abyss though.


and it could just be water. you die in there if you can swim bacause it's a vortex and you can't swim out of it. (though it probably isn't just water)

and raziel specifically says in the intro he was cast into the lake of the dead and mentions it's where weaklings and traitors are cast.

Lozza Mate
23rd May 2003, 02:34
The abyss itself has no inherant significance. Other than the fact that it houses the elder god it is just a convergence point for multiple lakes.

The reason it is seen as a bad place is because it is for vampires. A vampire cannot survive being thrown into the abyss (besides Rahab and Co.) and therefore it is an exellent place to execute vampires who have turned against their kind.

Vampmaster
23rd May 2003, 10:08
OK, maybe he doesn't use the abyss but what about the idea of him making demons out of ancients, hylden and humans using other methods?

fneh
23rd May 2003, 17:53
I hightly doubt it. Why did the ancients banish the hylden to the demon dimension if the demons were the hylden or the ancients. that doesn't really add up. The demons are totally unexplained as of yet but they must have always been there for the hylden to be banished to their world. (I HATE this whole demon dimension rubbish.)

madcdcd
23rd May 2003, 21:42
Originally posted by hippiechk
I had a better one and can't seem to find it right now. But this link should help you. (http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timeline.html)

Much thanks, that's a ton of help.:cool:

someguysteve
24th May 2003, 03:52
If the abyss was only for traiters and weaklings in Kains empire then that would mean Kain made the abyss. I don't think it's just a big waterfall otherwise Kain wouldn't mind if the weaklings were just put in any old pond.

i think that the reason it was reserved for traitors and weaklings was just due the aesthetics, its a monument, it has that nice vortex, and after a while there would be a great deal of shame associated with being tossed into it. also maybe they tried ponds but they dried up over the centuries.


I don't think the word dimension (in Nosgoth) means like an alternate time line where there's an alternate version of your self. AFAIK, it can mean alternate time lines (eg Sliders), but it can also mean (x, y, z) axis of a graph

maybe thats how squiddy got there (from his spot beneath the pillars), not physically moving his body but by moving an appendage out of the demon dimension into the material/spectral realm into that corresponding spot. meaning he could be massive, or that i'm wrong.

fneh
24th May 2003, 11:27
squiddy exists in all planes. You know he's in both physical and spectral. What's to say 'the hub of the wheel' doesn't exist on the (rather rediculous) demon plane?

hm_rules
6th Jun 2003, 06:38
ok in sr2 when you first leave the sarafan strong hold and jump into the lake, where the light forge is located at. At the bottom of the lake is a circle with a spiral symbol on it and a rock path that leads to it. What im getting to is, is this where the abyss is possibly at in sr1????

But then again i was thinking in sr1 the abyss is located just a few steps away from the pillars where kain has set up his thrown. so i dont think it could be the place where the abyss is at unless the land had changed which is possible since its been a millenium between the two periods of time.

I also posted this question under the soul reaver forum, just thought id put it here also since the topic was about the abyss.

DarkWraith
6th Jun 2003, 12:50
I think I'm right in saying that the circle your refering to was origionally meant to be the site of the spirit forge before it got taken out of the game. you can see some concept art of that location at the Lost Worlds.net (http://www.thelostworlds.net/SR2-Forges.HTML)

hope that helps ya out.
DW

Stukedogg
6th Jun 2003, 14:58
Wow! I love Reaper007's hypothisis. It makes so much sense. And maybe the elder was always the leader of the hylden, he came with them you know. That would explain why he wants all vampires dead. I think that Raziel was created on acciedent and he became "the one" vampire that couldn't be destroyed. So they decided to use that against vampires (kind of like in the Matrix Reloaded). so Kain had to create him because he is the key to saving nosgoth (The Pillars are the lock, The Reaver is the key) Because the pillars lock the Hylden in the demon dimension, and the demons are working for the Hylden. It says that in SR2. So I think the Hylden want to eliminate their nemesis the vampires, get rid of the humans and by feeding the elder, enabling him to reach full power.

Yeah!!!

Reaper007
6th Jun 2003, 18:50
Originally posted by Stukedogg
Wow! I love Reaper007's hypothisis. It makes so much sense. y thank u:D :D :D

Reaper007

Vampmaster
10th Jun 2003, 21:24
Originally posted by fneh
I hightly doubt it. Why did the ancients banish the hylden to the demon dimension if the demons were the hylden or the ancients. that doesn't really add up. The demons are totally unexplained as of yet but they must have always been there for the hylden to be banished to their world. (I HATE this whole demon dimension rubbish.)

There are obviously more than one type of demon. Some could have originated from Nosgoth and others from the demon dimension. I'm trying to say that the ancients could have opened up the door to the demon dimension so they could shove the hylden in there but let demons out in the process. I mean that in the same way the ancients sired humans to become vampires, the original demons could have sired ancients, hylden and humans into new demons.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Jun 2003, 23:33
Not to mention there was a demonic presence in Nosgoth well before the Hylden were introduced into the storyline.

For those who require a more thorough explanation:
Lady Azimuth and her ED (Extra-dimensional) little pets there in Avernus during BO1, as well as Hash'ak'gik.

punkst4r
21st Jun 2003, 04:48
If the hylden didn't originally come from another dimension then how did they appear in the first place?


We all know that Mobius is "evil" right!,and the Elder said that Mobius was one of "many" of his loyal servants.Who are the other servants and since when does the Elder have anything to do with the circle of nine because mobius is part of the nine.Since Mobius was inffected by Nupraptors maddness too then we can assume that he's up to no good and he just happened to be The Elders helper.:confused:

Vampmaster
21st Jun 2003, 16:09
Who said they appeared? I think they were always there and one day they just had a dissagreement that caused the war with the other races in Nosgoth. It was the humans who decided they were demons because that was how they looked. Even Janos says they are only the "authors of the demons", but he doesn't say they are demons.

Threnodi
4th Jul 2003, 22:51
Originally posted by Lozza Mate
The abyss itself has no inherant significance. Other than the fact that it houses the elder god it is just a convergence point for multiple lakes.


I think it's more than just a random landmark even if some people in the land might be led to think it is. In the intro video Raziel even referrs to the Abyss as the 'lake of the dead' so assumedly it is the same one on the map in BO1, so kain definately didn't create it, and it was an established bad place even when Kain was human. Also in the intro to SR1 the abyss has a green glow in the middle, which would indicate it's not just a natural convergence of lakes either. I'm not sure what it is, but it seems it's something old and unnatural, at any rate.