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KainSpawn
18th May 2003, 15:05
My vote goes to Vorador. He seems to want to do the right thing.

If you guys don't think anyone is good in LoK, just put the least evil character.

Blade2642
18th May 2003, 17:47
Nobody in LOK is "good"...

Matthew
18th May 2003, 20:40
I also put "other", because it's very true - almost no pure soul could be found on the face of Nosgoth.

I think that we've already thrown Ariel off from the "pure" list and I think that it was a right choice...

And Vorador ... I think it's the other way around - HE might have a VERY crucial and devious part in it all...

Raziel and Janos ... Well ... Raziel has practically always been so arrogant and admired himself, he doesn't care much about others.
And Janos - I think that he's not all so sugar-coated as it seems...

So basicly - only Kain is left. Despite his macarbe appearance and actions, I think that Kain is the only one seeking to restore the Pillars.

But nonetheless - I shall call Kain "GOOD" if he is willing to give up something dear to him in order to save the world.

- Matthew

Umah Bloodomen
18th May 2003, 20:41
I didn't vote on account of the same reasons already listed. I would like to elaborate more on my personal opinion however.

Each person and each race will obviously consider themselves to be working for the *greater good* and be convinced that they're *righteous*, however, that doesn't necessarily make them *good*. The agendas and views of each person and each group appear differently in the eyes of those who don't agree with those same agendas and views. Not to mention you have a lot of manipulation going on in the plotline, therefore those agendas and views are susceptible to being twisted for the pupose of others (which, again may be looked down upon as being *wrong* or *evil*).

Ardeth Silvereni
18th May 2003, 21:58
Umah expressed my feelings pretty clearly. Good and Evil is entirely subjective in the LoK universe. Moebius clearly believes he working for the force of 'right' by serving his god so devoutly - although we see his actions as destructive.

I think there is perhaps only one measure of goodness here - and that it when goodness is equated with harmlessness. Kain, Moebius, Raziel, Vorador... all of them cause significant harm to others. Janos is a predator of humans. By this reasoning, none are good, regardless of their intentions.

The_Last_Ancient
18th May 2003, 23:08
Both Umah and Ardeth have excellent points on this subject, but I can't help but think--it all depends on the way we look at it.

Isn't every story dealing with two opposing forces defined in the same way--in which there is no true good or evil because of the fact that each force sees themselves as serving the greater path?

So in this case, if I had to choose one of the above characters as the more benevolent one, I'd select Janos Audron. Although he IS a vampire, he seems to have a more tolerant view of the humans, saying that they are simply unenlightened and vulnerable to manipulation. Janos does seem too good to be true in games such as the LoK series at times, but I personally don't think he is one of the opposing forces in the vampires' way.

warpsavant
18th May 2003, 23:14
Elzevir. All the other characters are "unimportant" compared to Elzevir, so, it doesn't matter if they are good or evil. Elzevir is EVIL and thats GOOD.

Riovanes
19th May 2003, 19:13
Although it's been said already in a myriad of different ways...

This question seems to ignore one of the central points of the LoK series - that "good" and "evil" are all predicated upon whose side of the battle lines you stand on. Ethereal concepts such as morality spring from inner musings and social upbringing - they are not concrete "yes" or "no" things, and should not be defined as such. To the Sarafan, their crusade was holy - to Raziel, they were monsters - and in their eyes, HE was the evil one. So who's in the right here? It's easy for us to sit back and say, "Well, the Sarafan are evil because they're committing genocide," from the comfort of our bleeding-heart couches, but something tells me that were fantasy to become reality and we found ourselves in the midst of the same situation, many of you would not be so certain as to the horror of the massacre of the vampires - it is human nature to fear what we don't understand, and destroy what we fear, so even if it's not "right," the course of events in this game series can only be called "natural." Think about it for a second - let's assume that Nosgoth is a real place for a second, and that there really is a vampire infestation - someone comes along and tells you that your wife (or husband) and children are in grave danger from roving monsters that suck the life from their victims. Now, let's say, that as a rational person, you choose not to believe this somewhat alarmist message until you have seen it with your own eyes. One day, whilst walking through the woods, you see a vampire feeding on a townsperson - maybe even someone you know. Suddenly, the threat of vampire attack is all too real - now it's a matter of protecting your family and yourself from the fate of the person being sucked on behind the trees, and not a matter of "but I don't want to hurt anyone." A predator-prey relationship has been established - and it's kill or be killed. All of a sudden, who gives a screw about right and wrong? You just don't want to be bitten.
It's the same way for the vampires - they are eating to survive - so to them, they're not doing anything wrong, really - just what they have to do to keep going on. But realistically, they ARE killing people in a violent manner when they feed from them - most of us would think of this as manslaughter - a crime we still electrocute people for if it's bad enough. So are the vampires then "right?" Their very existence is harmful to life around them, because it requires them to seek nourishment in a damaging manner. Hmmm, are we still sitting around being philosophical about whether or not we can pity them? And if you answer as one that has never been in a fight-or-flight situation, then you're wasting your time. While I've never been in a kill or be killed situation, I've gotten myself into a rough spot or two in my life - I hate violence in real life, but when the guy ahead of you wants to smash your face into a bar top, you stop thinking about whether or not it's right to fight him, and you kick him in the face to keep him from hurting you. It's not a question of ethics - it's a question of survival. "Good," and "evil," are just words we tack on after the fact to make ourselves feel better.

I believe the point of this question belies its wording - it's not so much who we think is "good" as who we like the best - the character we get behind the most is the one we're going to think of as being "in the right." But because of the wording of the question, I'm not going to vote - this concept simply cannot be accurately answered in this manner.

BAH!!!

KainSpawn
19th May 2003, 20:11
Good to see the poll is getting the reaction I had hoped for.

I wanted to see if you people who have always deconstructed and scruntized the LoK series were willing to voice you opinions on who you thought were the people who might not have the best intentions for Nosgoth but will do it the most good in your eyes.

In other words, I'm trying to get you to make a stance and not play the fence. I'm tired of hearing the same old everyone is evil rants on different boards. The truth is that not everyone is evil they are simply those who are trying to bring about what they think is best. I'm trying to force you to decide.

Whether that be Vorador, Kain, Raziel, Janos, the Hylden, the Elder God, the Pillar Guardians, or the Sarafan is not the case. I want to see if you are willing to make that step and accept a side voluntarly with all its ups and downs.

This encourages a social movement. One where people will not debate the facts but the ideology that drives those who created the facts to action. The purpose here is to create an environment in which we can better understand the opinions of other people and the actions of the characters in the games.

But I'm only 16, I could be wrong.

Riovanes
20th May 2003, 03:43
Age notwithstanding, this is akin to trying to reach for the stars when you haven't quite been able to grasp the kitchen cupboards just yet - deliberately trying to draw people into a debate by asking leading (and irreconcilable) questions is asking for trouble on more levels than I care to count. That, and need I remind you - these are GAMES we're talking about. While they are a form of art in their own right, they are not great literature, nor astounding cinema, and have no real historical impact worth mentioning other than to affect the flow of current trends - they will not ever be taught in a classroom, outside of a pop-culture course, nor will they ever be cannonized (and if you don't know what that means yet, wait a while, and you will) into a format of what's "good" and what's not. If you're looking to re-establish the Renaissance, I suggest you try a different medium - you'll find the majority of video game fans aren't really up for the whole intellectual revolution thing - they just want better graphics, more action, and a slew of cheat codes.

BAH!!!

DarkWraith
20th May 2003, 07:39
Hey KingSpawn, I found a little loophole thing in the whole Kitchen Cupboard thing. All you have to do is go and drag a chair over from the kitchen table then stand on it. Then you can reach the cupboards and make the jelly sandwich you've been dreaming about.

That aside I agree. In the end there is no 'good' and 'evil'. It’s all a matter of perspective and when you reach the fabled light at the end of the tunnel, you realize that it’s not the Elysian Fields that await you but instead some fool who has been shining a torch in your eyes.
DW

Raziel 3
21st May 2003, 11:51
I'm not gonna vote for a certain reason now I believe differently from alot of people as to Raziel being restored to an Acient and another race manipulating the war between the Hylden and the Acients and judging by peoples posts I believe differently on this topic. I believe both Raziel and Kain are good now I know both have commited horrible acts but its not all their fault. Kain has always been manipulated by people hes just a victim of circumstances and hes only done what hes had to do nothing more so truly you cannot call him evil besides his destiny was altered who knows how he would have been if it was never altered.

Same case in point to Raziel. Raziel has always been manipulated by people Mobieus,Kain,The Elder God and also he was kinda evil as a Sarafan but Kain said when his destiny was altered so was Raziels because their destinies are bound together so he might not have been a Sarafan if his destiny was not altered so they are both victims of circumstance and manipulation and have only done what they had to do and believe was right and so I believe they are both Good well their alot more good then anyone else in Nosgoth thats for sure.

anarwally
24th May 2003, 07:31
Well, in real life I do believe that some things are good and some are evil (or wrong if you prefer). Even if too many situation in life end up being of the "two wrongs don't make a right" kind. However, since this is a video game it is kind of fun to discuss these things on occassion. (On the other hand, this topic does seem to rear it's ugly head on a regular basis. TTTWND)

In any case, I don't think the "good" character has been revealed yet in the LoK universe. Perhaps in the end someone will do something that is not self-serving or that doesn't just advance their own agenda. I think whoever sacrafices themselves or their own goals to "save" Nosgoth will be the good character in all of this. Assuming that actually happens I think it will be either Kain or Raziel, probably Kain.

Glucolisis
9th Aug 2003, 01:57
The humans are the good ones!

Berkano
9th Aug 2003, 02:42
Argh.. not good and evil again!

From a kantian ethics standpoint...
ITS KAIN!

If I shall define 'good' as the system of conduct by which I want the whole of the sentient universe to comply to, then I'd prefer they were all like Kain.

For one, Kain has never lied, selectively with-held truth, truth that was out there to be known, he need not be a source of knowledge.

Kain has done everything in his power to protect himself, his way of life, and sees no reason to be self-sacrificing, which is a good way of doing things.

At the same time, he has accepted what he is. A blood-sucking vampire. Nothing can change that, and its not necessarily a bad thing.

Wolves hunt to survive, so Kain kills a few humans so what? Not everyone can be omnivors, and specifically hunting and eating humans isn't a horrible thing. Its just what he is.

The humans don't have to like it, hell its their job to rebel, to kill a few vampires, to wipe them out IF they can. If the human race sees something as a threat, and wants it gone, then there is nothing wrong with that either.

If you can find an accomodation in between, thats good too. Its the dance of life dammit!

Usually things don't turn out so black and white/ me or you situations. Usually there is a compromise, but sometimes... sometimes there ISN'T.

Its when people start doing things that are NOT in their best interest overall, that things start to go wrong.
Look at the humans in SR2/BO2, following the Hylden because they're too stupid to realize what they're doing. Lead by corrupt pillar gaurdians.

Kain is the most honest, true, and sensible of all these characters. True, he's not the nicest fellow but he does what he's suppose to.

Berkano
9th Aug 2003, 02:52
Hey Riovanes stop knockin the video games.

Hehe..

True, they have no significance in the long run, but most games, if good and entertaining do bring up age old concepts that have been redone thousands of times throughout history.

The reason they won't be using Legacy of Kain in the classroom is because they already have better examples of the same material. Most of it coming from ancient greek philosophers and others from the 16 - 18th century.

Don't trivialize the content of a game because its been done before, there are only so many worth-while concepts in human existence for people to market dammit!

Now if your going to critique the game, make fun of something a little bit more original like oh I dunno, the tendancy for these characters to define their existence through pain as apposed to pleasure.

How many happy moments have the characters in LoK experienced? Really? I think the closest was when Raziel and Janos had that little heart to heart chat (no pun intended).

After said chat, Janos gets brutally murdered, and Raziel recieves a guilt trip. Mind you, I think he needed the drop in arrogance.

Zephonim
9th Aug 2003, 05:56
Yeah i remember when i first played SR2 i was a bit taken aback by how much of a defiant blue twit he turned into,for example as soon as he sees the elder god he rips into him ,but i do wish he did kill moebius when he had the "blades coiled in sinster embrace":D

Vampmaster
9th Aug 2003, 09:58
While there are no saints in Nosgoth, there may be some individuals that want to do the right thing, however they are always the nobodies who get killed without playing a major part. I think the closest thing to good guys are the humans in the Citadal and the anti safafan humans from BO2. I would like to see if any of the Ancients or Hylden are opposed to the actions the rest of their races.

diuqSehT
10th Aug 2003, 06:53
Nupraptor? (pre-insane)

I like the way Ariel gets portrayed as a suffering saint. Everyone always says she's hiding something, but I'm happy with her just the way she is.

PeopleAreFood
12th Aug 2003, 02:23
My vote goes to Kain.
he has had this whole thing planed out since
he cast our blue pal into the lake of the dead.

Chaotix
12th Aug 2003, 02:49
Kain. He is the one trying to cure the wrongs. Raziels motives are to kill Kain and discover some truths. Kain seems to already know the tale and just wishes to complete a duty.

Saitou
16th Aug 2003, 18:15
Honestly have you even played all the games? Vorador does not want the human population dead. He is the most neutral character out of everyone. He prefer that the vampires stay out of human affairs all together, and before you say no he doesnt look at what he did to the the circle but wait the reason he slaughtered the circle was because of their sponsership of the sarafan's "Noble" Crusade against his kind. Also the most truely good character is Raziel; he is the protagonist, the anti-hero so to speak. Out of everyone he truely wants to save Nosgoth above everything else. He doesnt want to return the pillars to the vampires as Kain does, "The pillars dont belong to them Raziel, they belong to us!" If anyone is arrogant its Kain as cool as he is, that however is beside the point. He doesnt want to finish what the Ancients started by vanquishing the Hylden from Nosgoth forever; he simply wants to escape his current path and find his one true destiny; which of course is to be the Messiah of Nosgoth.

"Ah I'm sick of hearing that particular phrase...it smells of martyrdom"



*Note*:These are of course just mho's

Umah Bloodomen
16th Aug 2003, 23:57
Non-typical theories aside, Vorador has an animosity towards humans (presumably because they murdered his sire), however it's not really to the point of wanting the entire race dead. I do second the notion of him wanting to stay out of the affairs of humans all together, (except of course when it comes to food), on account he even tells Kain this in BO.

N0V4
18th Aug 2003, 17:48
On a side note:

Most evil that is done is in the evil guys mind actually good.

Exmpl:Kain doesnt sacrifice himself damning Nosgoth but he did save the vampiric race

Exmpl:The Hilden are destroying Nosgoth because they want to get out of that vortex they were thrown in for something their ancestors did.


Real life empl: Adolf did ALOT of bad things but in his eyes he was making a world of the "true" race.




There is no REAL evil and no REAL good...its all dark and light tints of grey.

Just my 2 cents and also my opinion

lokkagrey
23rd Aug 2003, 10:39
I had to go with Janos. Yeah, sure he's got a blood curse on him and he's also is one of the ones who banished the Hylden. But he's the only one who shows any kind of concern for lowly humans. He may have to attack them to satisfy his blood curse (which was imposed upon him, lets be fair) but as he tells Raz he doesn't hate them even though they persecute him. That takes a good heart. And I'm not talking about the one they take out of his chest.

Stephenls
12th Sep 2003, 23:04
I voted Janos Audren, but that's a cheat. I believe that up until now, he's been the most consistently "good" (which I generally define as "benevolent") character.

However,right now it looks like a couple of centuries in Hell will have disagreed with him, and I doubt I'll be able to call him benevolent by the time I've finished playing through Defiance.

Kain is not benevolent. He is consistently self-serving. I don't honestly think he even bothers to rationalize his selfish actions to himself -- mostly I think the rationalizations he offers to others (Raziel in particular) are mostly artifice used to manipulate them into aiding him in his schemes. Kain's defining trait is that he wins, usually by playing dirty. He is not a hero in the modern sense of the word (the ancient meaning, "one who accomplishes great things," makes Kain a hero, but it also does the same to Moebius), nor is he the typical underdog protagonist or misunderstood antihero we see in so many other games. Generally, I see this as Kain's purpose -- if I want to play a good guy out to save the world, there are a hundred million other games I can play. Kain is a mastermind among masterminds -- I root for him because he's a very, very charismatic villain, not because he's the hero.

Raziel... is a brat. A whining brat. A useful pawn of a whining brat. And from what we've seen, he always has been. Which is not to say I don't like him; his voice acting provides him with almost as much charisma as Kain. But he's not a "good guy." He's also a fanatic -- he's always absolutely sure that whatever opinions he holds at any given moment are ultimately, absolutely correct. In Soul Reaver, he knew that Kain was evil and deserved to die. Then he didn't anymore, and so drifted along the path of least resistance for a while, which lead him through the shrines and eventually to Janus. Because he is a brat, he reacted positively to Janos's "father-figure" influence, only to see Janos "killed." Then, he knew that the other him was evil and deserved to die, just as the other him knew that vampires were evil and deserved to die (this is what's called a pattern). He seems to slowly be growing out of brat-hood, but he hasn't accomplished that yet as of the end of Soul Reaver 2. He's not a good guy yet. He could be, eventually, but not right now.

I don't know enough about Vorador to comment, as I never played the first game. He actually seems the most benevolent of the bunch, aside from the "grudge against an entire species" thing. Nevertheless, just as I don't know enough about Vorador to really comment, I don't know enough to call him a good guy. This is the LoK universe, which means I don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

Moebius is not a good guy. This is obvious. Neither is Cthulhu- er, I mean, the Elder God.

Ariel is a ghost. I don't know if she qualifies as a "person" at all anymore -- in many mythologies, ghosts lack free-will and are defined primarily by whatever feelings they had when they died. She hates Kain and may not even by capable of seeing her own blindness in the matter, in which case she's not so much a "good guy" as a "wretch deserving of our pity." If that's not how ghosts work in Nosgoth, then I don't know what to think about her yet.

Cold_Killer
13th Sep 2003, 05:12
All i can say is that theres no good nor bad, its all revenge...

Umah Bloodomen
13th Sep 2003, 05:19
I just want to urge the participants of this discussion to err on the side of caution when introducing real life examples into their posts. As I mentioned elsewhere:


I am not opposed to comparing real life to the fictional instances of the series, in fact I encourage it. However, what may be intended on furthering an objective discussion may be viewed (by some) as offensive, and that needs to be considered beforehand.

Volatile discussion matter is frowned upon by the administration because 9.5 times out of 10, no good comes from it. I can encourage objective and realistic discussion, however, I cannot condone offending the masses. When it gets to the point that tempers are flaring or problems could arise, then I must intervene. I hope that you understand where I'm coming from.


There is also no need for anyone to help push the discussion into a negative direction either. If it continues, this thread will be closed.

Vampmaster
13th Sep 2003, 20:14
Janos may have said he doesn't hate the humans, but it's likely he does hate the hylden. If he's an enemy of Kain and Raz in Defiance, maybe he let his hatred get the better of him and cares more about getting his revenge on the hylden than protecting the humans. If it's because of the demon dimension, I'd like to see more of what the place is like; whether it hurts him just to be there or the hylden are torturing him or worshipping him as a god. As long as it's not that last one, Janos could also just be reacting the same way Raziel did when his brothers threw him in the abyss. Raz turned on them even though they were just following Kains orders and it was apparantly for the good of Nosgoth (Raziels reaction to Turel in Defiance could be an interesting comparison). After a few centuries in the of torture Janos may not care that Raziel was tricked by Moebius and only want revenge on him.

HotHead
17th Sep 2003, 08:12
I think the greatest good in the legacy or Kain series is Kain himself. He may have done wrong in the past but he now knows the truth behing the world of Nosgoth. That is used to belong to the vampires before they were cursed with their blood thirst and trasformed into what they are now, a damned race that must feed on the life of humans in order to survive. Kain is merely trying to return to the vampires what is rightfully theirs.

Cold_Killer
17th Sep 2003, 20:57
Yes, Kain is the all mighty in the game, it would be bad if he died, i mean, he is everything in the game!!

LoL...

frog8986
27th Oct 2003, 06:50
IMO the "hero" of the legacy of kain games is ironically Kains creator Mortanius. Motanius is only known for one evil act of his own will. This one act of having Kain killed is in fact the only hope Nosgoth has ever had. The only other thing that could be looked at as being evil is what he does to malek but when some one lets the whole circle get killed but himself, Mortanius and Moebius then yeah some how you should get a dose of punishment. I will say that Mortanius when a bit far but who knows what the other members of the circle done to him if they would have lived and not Mortanius.

You do have to love it, the necromancer a good guy

RA Fox
27th Oct 2003, 07:44
Janos Audron.. A mystical and intriguing person , but still no objectivly bad things are known behind him. Yes he IS a vampire but does we know how he feeds ? Human can survive the act of feeding if he is not drained totally. And by his apperance in SR2 it is the only way i can think. Maybe naive but still it he is only one who haven't ,at least i don't know about it, killed anyone. Yet he avoided all possible fights with Sarafan , so i'm sure he didn't kill em either.

Sotos
27th Oct 2003, 14:49
As the game title says

LEGACY OF KAIN

the Kain is the main Dark hero and not Raziel

Raziel is just a VICTIM from Kain that just becomes the main Dark character in the Soulreaver series...

But surely is not the MAIN HERO of the SERIES

THERE ARE NOT ANY TRUE GOOD CHARACTERS IN THE GAME only bad...
Maybe raziel is not the true Evil because he is a VICTIM but surely not GOOD anymore
In the SOULREAVER he does not care even if he kills millions or anyone that comes to be in his way for to complete his <target>

as aout VORADOR and JANOS(i do not remember these character so well) they are Neutral Evil characters according scenario

Offtopic
KAIN has become very cool with his new telekinitic powers...

As about Raziel i have not seen so much new powers...Most of the new powers of RAZIEL that i saw is mostly have to do Devouring souls and enter HUMAN BODIES like beeng a DEMON...

Darkmaiden
27th Oct 2003, 16:02
I remember when Kain said about revenge when he was talking to Raziel in SR2. Kain said it is honest does he means it is the only way out of the whole situation. I know I am going off the topic of good and evil, in some ways in the characters views they have done some acts of good and evil. But I believe that some of the characters are more like the victims or pawns. Like the mastemind behind it all is the one who is evil while everyone else is just acting out the scenes of good and evil. Like me I done some good and bad things, but doesn't mean that I am evil or something. My view of evil is someone who does not care about the views of others or the land around them. They do what they do to show that they are the winning side. Those of good I believe is someone or something that does care what happens to someone or something like Kain for example even though he does not show it he probably does care in his own way. If he was evil I don't think he would bother trying to restore Nosgoth at all instead just try to rule somewhere else or others places. Like in SR2 he trys to show Raziel the real problem of Nosgoth which needs to be restored. Also I don't think it is everyones fault for doing the acts of good or evil.:cool:

DmonX
28th Oct 2003, 14:11
Good and Evil do not exist! For example if I kill someone it is EVIL.
But if Raziel kills his brethren and him self it is GOOD.

It just doesnt make sense

omegafury
29th Oct 2003, 04:11
the current incarnation of raziel would have to be the only good soul in nosgoth. because he's the most innocent.

bare with me, i know that sounded dumb.

the hylden, janos and kain all seek to mainpulate raziel to bend the fate of nosgoth in their favour. granted raziel is no angel, but he's the only one can't be held responsible for keeping the war on nosgoth in effect.

janos, as an ancient stated this war, as did the hylden. and kain seeks to continue it and ultimatel let in end with him as the victor. but raziel has been a tool of all three of these (see 'origin of vampire/hylden feud' thread).