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KoolKat_EF
16th May 2003, 22:21
Just a little question...

Well, Janos appeared to be a calm and good person in Soul Reaver 2 when Raziel met him. He was very dignified and gentle.

Yet, at the end of SR2, Kain insists that Janos must remain dead because of the Hylden.

Why would Janos turn evil if he were brought back to life?

Was it a different soul that inhabits his corpse or is he merely faking the niceness that Raziel finds?

I don't have the Bloodomens which would probably explain this, but could someone enlighten me, cos it's really bugging at me that someone so quiet and dignified would go evil.

Then again, it might be something that he does by accident after his ressurection?

I dunno.

Umah Bloodomen
16th May 2003, 22:36
You can find my views throughout the LOK community, so I will refrain from repeating myself here.

Just remember, that appearances are often deceiving...

KoolKat_EF
16th May 2003, 23:00
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

Just remember, that appearances are often deceiving...

Another deciever? :( Poor Raziel... he must be so tired of being lied to.

I would never have guessed that Janos would be evil.

Glucolisis
17th May 2003, 00:15
who said that janos would become evil?

Umah Bloodomen
17th May 2003, 00:16
I didn't say he'd become evil, I said he was inherently evil.

Glucolisis
17th May 2003, 00:21
That could be a possibility.

But koolkat said that he would become evil after resurrection, why?

i think janos is not a saint (he is hidind something) but is not going to deceive raziel.

Umah Bloodomen
17th May 2003, 01:16
It isn't a question of becoming evil after being resurrected. It's about being discovered he is evil after being resurrected.

As I mentioned, I believe that Janos Audron is inherently anti-vampire (which in this storyline would imply being evil to most of the forum members).

As a friend and I were discussing via MSN, it is very common in literary works, to reintroduce a character (usually bringing them back from the dead) and have something be noticably "off" or "not right" with that individual.

Now I have also commented on the charade Janos is pulling to further persuade Raziel to fufill his destiny (which I believe also is conveniently the agendas of the demon race - Hash'ak'gik and co.) I have pointed out a few instances where Janos appears to slip up in his little charade, post-resurrection, I think it will be easier to distinguish his motives, seeing he will be reverting back to his true-self. (Despite his outward appearance).

How Janos is guiding Raziel is deceptive to Kain and others with their own agenda.

Wise Man Domingo
17th May 2003, 02:17
anyone here played BO2? Because the whole Hylden thing is explained there...

Let me see if I can do this right...

Janos Audron was being used to fuel the "Device" the Hylden planned to use in BO2 to wipe out all life other than Hyldens in Nosgoth. I'm guessing this is why Kain warned Raziel that "Janos must stay dead!" at the end of SR2 (now having the new memories of BO2 planted in his mind by the alterations in history that occured when he saved Raziel from being devoured by the Reaver).

Umah Bloodomen
17th May 2003, 02:28
He who thinks himself wise, O heavens! is a great fool. ~ Voltaire

Something of interest... (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13159)

EDIT: Adjusted the spoiler tag.

Vampmaster
17th May 2003, 13:20
How's that a spoiler? I won't be convinced on any theory even my own unless I see it happen in the game.

I tried to prove that the theory is based on assumtions on which terms are relative and which arn't. (I lost my train of thought towards the end a bit, though.) For instance the Builder could have been 'bending the truth' a bit as well with his description of how pure blood of the elder races kills the mass. Both races would try to make the other look like the bad guys.

Umah Bloodomen
17th May 2003, 13:41
Originally posted by Vampmaster
How's that a spoiler? I won't be convinced on any theory even my own unless I see it happen in the game.

I tried to prove that the theory is based on assumtions on which terms are relative and which arn't. (I lost my train of thought towards the end a bit, though.) For instance the Builder could have been 'bending the truth' a bit as well with his description of how pure blood of the elder races kills the mass. Both races would try to make the other look like the bad guys.

First of all, it wasn't directed towards you. Secondly I was being *polite* by shrouding my instance of sarcasm with the spoiler function. Whether it happens in the game or not, I really don't care. The point is, I had fun coming up with an explanation that other people wouldn't or quite possibly couldn't have.

Also, you and Anubis argued relative terms, and not to be overly critical (although you're going to take as such), you have yet to thoroughly put forth something which condradicts the theory Anubis and I presented in a way that is plausible, well thought out and elaborate. (In regards to the thread I provided, I am not talking about other discussions in which it was briefly mentioned).

I also noticed that you lost your train of thought in the thread in which I am referring to, and to be frank with you, it's really done nothing for the sake of argument of the theory (be you for it or against it).

I will admit that your theory could very well be possible, however you have yet to at least admit that our theory could be as well. I don't care if you, or any other individual who reads it, end up conforming to it and believing in it with all that you are. All I hoped to gain from the thread in question is that it be acknowledged as a possibility.

It's already pretty clear to me that the thread in question intimidates other individuals (hence the lack of in-depth responses other than Anubis' and I). The only reason why I choose to supply the link to it over and over again is because many aspects that we discussed have been touched on over and over again, and it's just easier to supply the link as opposed to retyping the same things.

Vampmaster
17th May 2003, 18:18
I know it wasn't directed at me. It was directed at Wise Man for saying you havn't played BO2. I just asked a question and posted some of my opinions. You're theory is possible, I thought you had been saying that no others were. In fact some of my theories I adapted so that they coincide with yours. Sometimes I've tried to give more than one version of a theory so that if one doesn't agree with yours the other will. My use of the word 'contadict' was inaccurate. I just meant I'd found a detail that didn't fit in with the theory. How's the quote from Voltaire sarcasm? :p It would have made sense if you were being serious. (OK, I was winding you up by nitpicking that last one)

I've been taking too much offence at some of your posts lately (and those of Rio and Anubis as well). Sorry for the misunderstanding(s).

ZelenGangrel
17th May 2003, 18:33
Every grain of sand effects all the others.

So what if the simple resurrecting of Janos causes some chain of events that bring about the downfall of Kain and Raziel. Janos doesnt neccessarily need to be evil, just that his interacting with his enviroment causes things that will lead to the fear in Kain's eyes.

The Amazing Rando
17th May 2003, 19:33
Originally posted by Wise Man Domingo


I'm guessing this is why Kain warned Raziel that "Janos must stay dead!" at the end of SR2 (now having the new memories of BO2 planted in his mind by the alterations in history that occured when he saved Raziel from being devoured by the Reaver).

K, You're saying he warned Raz not to revive Janos b/c Janos would fuel the device, but that Kain already had the new memories before he warned Raz. This means that Kain had already gone through the events of BO2, correct? If so, wouldn't Kain already know that he prevented the Hylden from using the Device to kill everyone? Hmm. I think it would, which would mean that he really shouldn't care if Raz raises Janos, as the Hyden's plan will be prevented anyway.

Valaquen_
17th May 2003, 20:16
I believe that Janos Audron is inherently anti-vampire

I would think so, since the vampire curse is most probaly what wiped out his race, they probaly turned against each other and killed each other, leaving Janos alone, bitter even.

Maybe Janos must stay dead for the time being, remember Raziel said that Kains words were lost to him as he slipped away, maybe Kain hadn't quite finished his sentence.
So maybe they'll leave Janos dead until Kain finds it necessary to ressurect him, probaly a crucial plot thing...

chemicalflava
17th May 2003, 21:09
This post contains information that could spoil Blood Omen 2 for people who haven't played it. Just a heads up.

OK... So remember when the Sarafan King (was he the king? I forget) told Kain about how his race (the Hylden) was a beautiful race until Janos's race banished them to another dimension (making the Hylden take it upon themselves to curse Janos's race with vampirism)? Welllll... at the end of Blood Omen 2, Janos gets thrown into this dimension. Maybe Janos comes back evil or something (at the very least he will be physically deformed).

Or maybe Kain just felt bad for Janos (pfft, yeah right).

Apocrypha Roxy
17th May 2003, 21:50
Methinks Janos in BloodOmen2 was not EVIL.

But he was a bit loony. You have to admit that.

After all, he was Nosgoth's biggest Duracell. Right? Of course he's a little 'off'. Just like Ariel. Of course, Ariel hasn't revealed everything she knows, so it's possible the same applies to Janos.

Still, they invoke empathy. I mean, she's a ghost with half a face tethered to a bunch of broken columns, and he's the last of his kind, who gets his heart ripped out, is used as the world's biggest battery, and then gets chucked into Hell itself.

Oopsie. :rolleyes:

SR2 Janos was not evil. Nah, he was cool. It's all good. Until he gets his heart ripped out. Which kind of sucks, ya know. :(

KoolKat_EF
17th May 2003, 21:51
Ok, sorry ppl but I'm just even more confused.

I think I'm beginning to understand, but only just.

All this is very complex and at times can confuse me, yet I really do want to understand.

dangerizer
17th May 2003, 21:54
now that you mention it now i wonder if the boss character we see in the trailor is really the changed Janos. It appeared to resemble a stone form of an ancient vampire. Maybe this is the somewhat transformed version of him, possibly evil delivered from the demon dimension. It will still be cool to see the ending since we have no idea who or what is leading the hylden, or maybe their is a 4th party involved further complicating things. Too many doors are open in the story to speculate almost anything UNTIL DEFIANCE IS PLAYABLE. That is what makes it interesting though.

Umah Bloodomen
18th May 2003, 03:23
Originally posted by Vampmaster
How's the quote from Voltaire sarcasm? :p It would have made sense if you were being serious. (OK, I was winding you up by nitpicking that last one)

I've been taking too much offence at some of your posts lately (and those of Rio and Anubis as well). Sorry for the misunderstanding(s).

Methinks one of us should brush up on their Voltaire history and the meaning of sarcasm. (And I'll give you a clue. It isn't me). :rolleyes:

In regards to your second statement, I hadn't noticed. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Slight clarification.

chemicalflava
18th May 2003, 03:43
More SPOILERS.

Janos isn't evil as of Soul Reaver 2 and even Blood Omen 2. At the very end of Blood Omen 2, Janos falls into the Demon Dimension (the dimension the Hylden are from). The demon dimension will most likely f*** Janos up, mentally and physically (as it did the Hylden). So maybe Janos comes back and does some bad things, making it so Kain would say "Janos must stay dead!"

And check out Blincoln's thread about Chakan vs. Blood Omen 2. THATS SOME CRAZY JUNK, MAN!!! Kinda sad that they felt so lazy as to "copy and paste" elements of a game.

Hmmmmmm... As I sit here, I remember a part of BO2... Remember what Janos looked like before he turned BACK into Janos (when he was a CopperTop)? I forget exactly why he was like that, but the monster that Janos was looked a lot like the Hylden and the demons. Maybe this is what the demon dimension will do to Janos....

JUST MAYBE!!!

The Amazing Rando
18th May 2003, 04:53
We have a handy new "Spoiler Feature" chemicalflava, which puts that big blue box over spoiler text. You can see it demonstrated earlier in this thread. This way, people don't accidentaly miss a spoiler warning and see the text, even tho BO2 isn't exactly new anymore. Methinks you might want to use the feature instead, especially in the upcoming months when Defiance is coming out. It'll probably make some people much happier. Just a heads up of course.

You may also want to check out this old and mostly ignore, but still useful (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=13502) thread to learn about the spoiler and other features of the board.

Vampmaster
18th May 2003, 12:00
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Methinks one of us should brush up on their Voltaire history and the meaning of sarcasm. (And I'll give you a clue. It isn't me). :rolleyes:

In regards to your second statement, I hadn't noticed. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Slight clarification.


I thought sarcasm meant where you mean the opposite to what you say.

If you were being sarcastic by saying "He who thinks himself wise, O heavens! is a great fool.", then wouldn't that mean "He who thinks himself wise, O heavens! is wise indeed."? The first one really does make more sense to me. I'm not trying to make an arguement out of this. I only mentioned it as a wind-up.

As for Voltaire history, I don't know anything about that.


EDIT: I looked up sarcasm and it only mentions irony so I looked that up as well. I keep forgetting irony has two meanings. The meaning I usually assume sarcasm to have is "the expression of meaning by use of words normally conveying the opposite" and the meaning I usually assume irony to have (esp. when Kain uses the word) is "an apparant perversity of fate or circumstances". I got consused as to which meaning you meant. It makes sense now.

DarkWraith
18th May 2003, 12:35
Ok here we go again.
As i have often said before I have never understood why you consider Janos manipulative. I can follow the proof you provide but i still prefer to think of Janos as a good guy.
when he falls into the demon dimension i always believed that Janos would be overpowered by the Hylden and used by them to power another 'device'

Possibly a naive belief but hey I'm allowed to be naive if i want and childish too :p
hey nothing new there

I reckon Janos will turn out good

I'll go back to writing on the wall in crayon now
DW

someguysteve
19th May 2003, 03:23
K, You're saying he warned Raz not to revive Janos b/c Janos would fuel the device, but that Kain already had the new memories before he warned Raz. This means that Kain had already gone through the events of BO2, correct? If so, wouldn't Kain already know that he prevented the Hylden from using the Device to kill everyone? Hmm. I think it would, which would mean that he really shouldn't care if Raz raises Janos, as the Hyden's plan will be prevented anyway.

maybe Kain wants him to stay dead because of events that occur after BO2

The Amazing Rando
19th May 2003, 04:12
such as, oh I don't know, Kain ruling Nosgoth, then raising 6 lts., ruling Nosgoth some more, and then tossing one into the abyss so that he can go through the SR series followed by Defiance?:rolleyes: ;) :D

ZeNeR
19th May 2003, 04:40
I think Janos has some dark intensions which haven't been exposed yet. And his name can't be a coincidence.

It's refering to an old Roman two faced god, Janus (Janos in some translations). Names in the LoK series have always had a clear meaning taken from some mythology, like Christianity: Kain is a murderer, Raziel is an Angel of Death, Rahab is a leech and so on.

So my point is, Janos can truly be a two-faced person.

Surely LoKD will enlighten us all. :)

Ardeth Silvereni
19th May 2003, 16:39
Personally, I think Janos has to stay dead because at some point he's going to go on a major psycho rampage... :p :D

A bit of thinking out loud here... most has probably been mentioned by other people in the past.

As has been mentioned in some other posts, I think the character of Janos will be deeply affected by the events at the climax of BO2 (presuming he appears in Defiance). I think the demonic dimension could 'damage' him.I don't think Janos is inherantly a sinister individual, but he could become one.
I find it difficult to believe he was cunningly maintaining a fa├žade of benevolence, simply to manipulate Raziel. I would expect him to be a fairly powerful individual. Surely there would be easier ways for Janos to affect Nosgoth, and I don't think he can exploit Time as Moebius can. I doubt he would be well enough informed to pull off that kind of deception and know its outcome.

I will argue against myself though...

If he was decieving Raziel, that suggests an alliance with the Elder God and (indirectly) Moebius. I can't really see a motive for this. If an alliance existed, why would the Elder allow Moebius to have Janos killed?

Unless: Could Janos's resurrection have been planned from the start? To further strengthen Raziel's resolve to follow his direction? It certainly seemed to work.

Janos clearly despises the Hylden, but this is the only expression of hatred we've seen from him. We saw how bitter he was at the Sarafan Lord. This wasn't just because of his imprisonment in the Device. I can imagine him being consumed by a need to deal with the Hylden once and for all. Up until now, I've been expecting an alliance between the Elder and the Hylden, seeing as Moebius's manipuation of Raziel in SR2 apparently aided the Hylden cause (I guess he expected Kain's intervention).

What if: The Hylden and the Ancients hate each other and want each other dead. The Elder God (who I think is working in the interest of the demons) is currently playing double agent. Moebius is its trump card, giving it enough information to play the other two races off against each other, pretending to aid both. Maybe it wants them to destroy each other so it can have Nosgoth alone.

I'm having a little trouble digesting the sheer quantity of discussion in the thread you linked to, Umah. I think I'm reading the gist of it, apologies to you and Anubis if I'm not. I want to mention these ideas:
- The agenda of the Ancients is their self-advancement at the expense of other races. They were perhaps more damaging to the human population than the Hylden. Kain's agenda is likely very different from Janos's, and (as we have been playing from Kain's viewpoint), we are assuming Kain's is in the best interests of Nosgoth overall.

I think this makes sense. Kain is excluded from the various factions, and is therefore harder to control or predict. His agenda seems a very honest one, and he is not affected by historical prejudicies.
It's more difficult to judge Janos, as we don't know enough about his race's history. I'm falling for his 'nice guy' image at the moment, but I'm open to the possibility that he will be a big problem to Kain and Raziel in the future, as their interests conflict.

Evelin The Winged
21st May 2003, 15:36
What if the Ancients and Hylden are being manipulated into killing each other? Like, something or someone want's both races dead or something?

ZeNeR
21st May 2003, 15:55
Originally posted by Evelin The Winged
What if the Ancients and Hylden are being manipulated into killing each other? Like, something or someone want's both races dead or something?

Yup, this is what I'm suspecting. I believe that there is some yet-unseen force, which wants both, the Ancients and the Hylden, to die.

Raziel 3
23rd May 2003, 12:15
I don't believe Janos is evil in Defiance though he may be evil due to the Demon Dimensions form and mind altering affects. Also I think that the Hylden are not the Dark forces I think the Acients and the Hylden were both manipulated into war because it was perfectlly calculated so both races would destroy each other the hlyden were destroyed by being exiled to the demon dimension and turned monsterous and the acients were destroyed by being cursed with the blood Curse killing thier reproduction and eventually they died out when you think about it it was very well planned out and I believe that they were merely pawns. As for Janos he may not be telling the whole truth but I doubt he is evil cause his monster form was a devolution just like Kains other 5 lieutenants Devolved into monsters so to did Janos well gtg I'm at school peace.

Kain's Ancient Blade
23rd May 2003, 12:52
definition of sarcasm:
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.

2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule

n : witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"

Syn: Satire; irony; ridicule; taunt; gibe.

KoolKat_EF
23rd May 2003, 20:09
Ok, I've re-read the whole thread and it is making more sense now.

Janos isn't originally evil. He has his heart ripped out and then when Raziel resurrects him, he is used as a battery (excuse the expression:D) to power a Hylden device. He then somehow is thrown into Hell and affected badly. Angry at the Hylden, he begins to become bitter and angry and eventually becomes bad.

Poor Janos. He didn't deserve that. :(

Thanx for explaining the whole thing for me. :)

DarkWarriorBlake
4th Jun 2003, 04:40
Perhaps, despite Kain 'stopping' Janos powering the machine, eliminating his only lover and Janos and building his vampire army to conquer the world, he was in fact too late to prevent what the Hylden were attempting to do with the mass.

However because of his interference it took a great deal more time.

However, since it was Raziels destiny to destroy his human form and cast himself into his present fate, Kain's further interference in removing the soul reaver and keeping Raziel alive also affected the time line, perhaps preventing time to play out as in Soul Reaver 1 and Kain;s army becoming slightly...fudged.

punkst4r
8th Jun 2003, 02:03
I think that one of the reasons is because at the beginning of BO1 kain uses janos heart.

He probably remembered that he used or needed to use janos heart to revive another vampire.

Janos was being used to feed a machine in BO2 so kain probably wanted to prevent that.

punkst4r
8th Jun 2003, 20:45
Since janos couldn't fly because of Mobious's staff couldn't he have used the reaver against the sarafan?since it's so powerful.

KoolKat_EF
8th Jun 2003, 20:58
I guess that maybe he couldn't.

He put it back into the box and by the time he had teleported Raziel, the Sarafan were on him.

Moebius says that the staff disables the enemies meaning that he probably couldn't walk either, leaving the Soul Reaver beyond his reach.

Also, he probably knew that the destruction of the Sarafan was for Raziel to do and so unable to move, and unable to hurt the sarafan, the only thing Janos could do was be killed.

punkst4r
9th Jun 2003, 00:24
If he wasn't able to move then why was raziel able to move when he encountered mobius for the first time? and besides walking isn't something special that only vampires can do. And isn't teleportation also a vampiric gift that he shouldn't have been able to do?instead he should have gotten the blade and escape out the balcony with raziel.

Umah Bloodomen
9th Jun 2003, 00:58
Raziel is no longer a *typical* vampire. He was affected by Moebius' staff in a completely different way than Janos Audron was. (The Wraith Blade was indeed disabled there at the beginning of SR2).

As far as subduing enemies is concerned, I feel that the effects of the staff vary from individual to individual. Some may inexperience total paralysis, others may just be stripped of their powers (enhanced strength, magical abilities, etc.)

Aside from Teleportation being introduced as a Dark Gift in BO2, the fact Janos didn't teleport certainly raises some questions about his agendas. I refuse to repeat what I've said elsewhere, but there is definately more than meets the eye in regards to Janos Audron.

punkst4r
11th Jun 2003, 22:03
Whats the problem?
"My bad"

someguysteve
12th Jun 2003, 02:34
i don't think that any future problems that might arrise from Janos' resurection will be entirely his fault. Half the problem is going to be the fact that Kain is alive when he shouldn't be, and Raziel too. maybe the last part of SR2 should have happened in Janos' retreat, but if his heart wasn't removed the whole resurection problem disappears, however his heart was removed and that means he doesn't save Raziel and the cycle begins again. so now there are 2 people who are changing events, anyone else want Mobious taken down

just a thought i've had

resh
12th Jun 2003, 20:05
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
ROTFLMAO!

What's this got to do with the thread?:confused:

Please reply with something related, don't clog this thread up with things like that. Thank you:)

Grey Mouser
14th Jun 2003, 00:16
One would almost think there was a Criminal Element (http://www.mafia-game.com/) involved.

But nah....no one could possibly be that lame....or could they?


sniffsniff....hmmm, maybe ;)

KoolKat_EF
14th Jun 2003, 15:43
LOL Grey Mouser, there might well be, ya never know... ;)

Umah, he has got a point.

He wrote what he did after reading the posts here cos he thought we were clever.
You wrote what you did after reading a post here cos you thought it was funny.

In a way, both were on-topic, though neither contributed, not yours or his because if I remember correctly, I created this post querying the intentions of Janos, not querying ppls views on posts here.

:D

resh
14th Jun 2003, 15:52
Thank you Umah for updating ur post b4, it makes a big difference, CHEERS:D :p :D ;)

Umah Bloodomen
14th Jun 2003, 20:37
GM ~ I do think that people could be (and are) "quite possibly that lame", and are obviously displaying that in this situation. It's clear that certain allegiances have been revived and have resorted to again becoming the cumbersome plagues they once were. ;)

EDIT: Doing my part to clean up the unnecessary crap in this forum, by removing that which I've added.

resh
15th Jun 2003, 18:47
Bit confused with ur post there Umah:confused:

KoolKat_EF
15th Jun 2003, 18:58
You're not the only one.

KoolKat_EF
15th Jun 2003, 20:38
...I'm curious as to what alliances our indigo friend is speaking of. :p

That doesn't mean I'm finished with this thread. There may yet be more topic related posts to come.

In another thread, I heard someone say that Janos may well be two-faced, because his name is like that of a roman god of January Janus who is two faced, just like Raziel's name is that of the angel of death, Rahab is leech...

Does this hold any grounds? Is it possible that Janos might be two-faced? :o

I know it's unlikely, but you never know.

warpsavant
15th Jun 2003, 22:28
Originally posted by KoolKat

Does this hold any grounds? Is it possible that Janos might be two-faced? :o

I know it's unlikely, but you never know.

There is(or may be) a 2 faced mural of Janos in the Air Forge.

Apocrypha Roxy
16th Jun 2003, 15:49
Originally posted by warpsavant
There is(or may be) a 2 faced mural of Janos in the Air Forge.

Yeah, I saw it... and in the unlocked features, too. Ooh, yes...

Somehow I think Janos goes kooky somewhere along the line. We just have to find out in Defiance, and then our theories will be on-target or null.

Hey, I can wait until Fall/Winter...

Matt from Spam Buddies
16th Jun 2003, 17:37
Janos going cooky? You mean nuts?

Hm... Interesting... I doubt it, but maybe Janos falling into the Hylden Gate in TLOKS-BO2 has to do something with it... And the Sarafan Lord's lines before he threw Janos in... ;) Just maybe.

- Matthew

Matt from Spam Buddies
16th Jun 2003, 20:00
Why yes, yes of course. :)

The Sarafan Lord:
"Then go, and see what it makes of you!"

And after that they engage on each other, but the Sarafan Lord gains the upper hand, grabs and lifts up Janos by the throat.
Kain is then too busy picking up the Soul Reaver. The Sarafan Lord continues.

The Sarafan Lord:
"I sentence you to the hell of your own making - a prisoner of all time."

After that he throws Janos in.


That's that. Basicly their conversation supports the theory that the Hylden are not all that evil they seem in TLOKS-BO2. Maybe they did turn so vile because of their banishment in the demon realm? Maybe they were once a beautiful and peaceful race as depicted in the murals? Is the Seer really the only Hylden who escaped the banishment? Will Janos lose his pretty face and become a demon like the Hylden? Will Batman and Robin escape from the trap of the Joker?
Find out next week, same bat channel, same bat time.

- Matthew

KoolKat_EF
16th Jun 2003, 20:18
"Then go, and see what it makes of you."

Did he then know what would happen?
OMG, it was the Sarafan that turned him bad!!! :eek:
They must not have known he would have gotten out. :o

Then maybe, if the Hylden gate can turn Janos bad, then maybe the Hylden weren't as bad as they seem. They were probably corrupted by their time in the gate.

But that raises the question - was Janos as good to begin with if he and his race banished them to the other dimension? Would the Hylden be as bad as they were if it weren't for the ancients?


Oooooh!!! I'm onto something here... I do love theorising and sleuthing. :D

[edit] I was referring to your post concerning Grey Mouser's post.

punkst4r
16th Jun 2003, 20:19
So....about Janos.I think that in the next game he will probably come back from the demon world that he was thrown into in BO2, and it will be explained how vorador came back in BO2.

KoolKat_EF
16th Jun 2003, 20:32
So....about Janos.I think that in the next game he will probably come back from the demon world that he was thrown into in BO2, and it will be explained how vorador came back in BO2.

I wonder if in anyway, Janos and Vorador are connected? Nah, seems a bit unlikely, but in LoK, anything can be expected. Makes you wonder though.

Matt from Spam Buddies
16th Jun 2003, 20:46
Let's try to get along here, mates. :)

But anyway, let's forget the bad things now... and move over to the worse things. Mwuh-hah-haah. Janos turning bad. Great.

A lot of people think that if that theory turns out to be correct, then Raziel will most probably visit the corrupted Janos. But it can also be the other way around - Janos could come out. Anyway...

I have to support Umah's theory again - there are no sides in LOK. There are merely beings who believe they are working for the greater good. There is no black and white.

- Matthew

KoolKat_EF
16th Jun 2003, 20:56
Anyway, back to topic, hopefully for the rest of this thread, nope, there is no black or white in Nosgoth. That would be silly. :p It'd be too strange, there'd be no storyline twists or mysteries.

Does anyone think it possible at all that Janos and Vorador are connected. I know that Janos is Vorador's maker, but does Janos have anything to do with Voradors ressurection?

Hmmmmmmm...

punkst4r
16th Jun 2003, 22:33
I don't think that Janos had anything to do with Voradors resurrection because he was long dead since Vorador's execution,but i'm pretty sure that Janos was lying when he said all that bull$*** about not hating humans and that they don't know what theyr'e doing.No vampire can be that calm after years of torture from the humans.

someguysteve
17th Jun 2003, 01:20
but i'm pretty sure that Janos was lying when he said all that bull$*** about not hating humans and that they don't know what theyr'e doing.No vampire can be that calm after years of torture from the humans.

i don't think so, i recently replayed SR2 and was thinking about this for a little while. i think that the ancients were bascally good, i'm not sure if the hylden were evil before being locked in the other dimension and their war was justified or both were good and they just didn't get along.

back to janos, i think if he was evil he then he would have done something by then unless hes waiting for Raziel, who could be manipulated. at the retreat though janos basically tells Raziel that vampires and the humans are good, or at least have the potential to be. also he makes a point at not hating them, i think that were he evil he could easily say that he did hate humans and understandably so and it would allow him to tell Raziel later on to kill humans or something, but by saying otherwise he takes away this opportunity.

as for his intentions i think that he could go mad in the protal, but not entirely from being in the other dimension, but from all the things the hylden will do to him in there.

punkst4r
17th Jun 2003, 20:05
Hey why didn't janos just fly out of the gate that he was thrown into? What the hell do you have wings if your not gonna use them.Both times that Janos got the chance to fly away to safety he just got his @$$ kicked.There has to be more to him.:confused:

Anubis_Orr
17th Jun 2003, 21:41
In Soul Reaver 2 the Sarafan brethren were equipped with Moebius' staff when they invaded Janos' aerie (the staff that disables vampires). Janos was impaired by it's influence and this allowed the brethren to kill him. As for Blood Omen 2.... quite frankly it's inexplicable as to why Janos didn't merely fly back up. Kain at least had the foresight to cripple Raziel's wings before casting him into the abyss.

punkst4r
17th Jun 2003, 23:51
I know that the sarafan had the staff but he had enough time to do something about it because he was able to teleport raziel out of harm.Janos did have the soulreaver to help him out or at least raziel could have had donne something about it.


Why did Janos or the ancients build that whole puzzle that raziel had to figure out to get to Janos' retreat if it was only meant for Janos to be there? away from harm

Anubis_Orr
18th Jun 2003, 00:27
The whole point is that Janos sacrificed himself so Raziel would survive and complete his destiny. As to why they made the puzzle my only answer would be that they wanted to insure that only Raziel would be able to unleash the forge's power.

Matt from Spam Buddies
18th Jun 2003, 18:15
Yeah... And I guess it would've been really boring just walking in there and diping Your hand in the Forge. :rolleyes:

- Matthew

punkst4r
18th Jun 2003, 20:01
I wasn't talking about the forge.I was talking about the puzzle where you have to carry the blood all over the place to get to the top.

KoolKat_EF
18th Jun 2003, 20:42
I see what you mean, Punkst4r. Perhaps they knew he was coming?

The Amazing Rando
18th Jun 2003, 21:32
Well, you wouldn't just want anyone to be able to et to you while you were sleeping, so they built a puzzle that would require someone with the reaver (and a couple enhancements) to be able to reach Janos.

Now this means that they planned for someone who couldn't fly to be able to reach him. Maybe it was made for Kain?

More likely tho, it provides support for the whole Janos isn't good/telling the truth, as the only one that should be walking and have the Reaver w/ enhancements, would be the one who could enter the forges-by prophesy, Raz. Since they knew he would be walking, it calls into question Janos' line "My child, what have they done to you?"

He apparently knew what they did, but acted like he didn't. And, as I know it's been said in the past, someone (prob Moe, unless Janos is plotting with him) set it up so the Sarafan would be there right when Raz opened the way, as there was no other time they could get to Janos, so somebody knew what was going on.

punkst4r
18th Jun 2003, 22:13
If Janos actually didn't know what happened to raziels wings then it wouldn't have made any sence because I think that since raziel was meant to be the "soul reaver" and the ancients made the sword they were expecting a winged Vampire so therefore the way up to Janos retreat shouldn't have been there.Probably the reason why Raziel was the only one who grew wings was because he was meant to be the soulreaver since the ancients were alive and they were winged.:confused:

KoolKat_EF
21st Jun 2003, 20:38
It all seems so very strange. There is definately more to Janos than is being let on.

It does now seem that he would have been lying to Raziel by pretending to not know of Raziel's condition.

I think it will have been very likely that Janos and Moebius are in it together.

O_o There is definetly something not right here. It doesn't make any sense.

Dace
22nd Jun 2003, 19:36
I just kinda have one thing to ask. What diffrence does it make if Janos comes back from the Demon realm evil? The events of BO2 take place loooooooong after SR2. Thus unless Definance is going to occur after BO2 the events at the end of BO2 with Janos and stuff wouldnt have much impact on whether or not he is in fact evil in SR2 or will be evil in Definance.

The only reason I think Kain warns against raising Janos is because it will likely end Kain's life. Kain is the biggest wild card. Removing him from the equation would put everyones well crafted plans back in line. Since Kain uses the heart of darkness in BO 1 it would stand to reason that at this point Janos is still dead. Thus Kain needs his heart to survive. If Kain die's then Kain doesn't stop the Hylden in BO1. Furthermore he doesn't go on to create his empire and thus create Raziel and thus lead up to the events that lead up to the events that occur in SR2.

Time paradox's galore.

Perhaps thats what the Hylden wanted all along in the first place. To unmake Nosgoths saviors, both Kain and Raziel by having them erase themselves from history. At least in the states that we know them as. Thus by returning the heart Kain and Raziel walk right into the Hylden trap.

Or maybe Kain just doesn't want Janos to be the battery for the device. Keep in mind that the events of BO2 could be the direct result of SR2 and returning the heart to Janos. Kain wouldn't remember BO2 till the end of SR2 when time readjusted itself.

More time paradox's. Isn't this game great.

As for whether Janos is evil or not. Eeeeeeh I don't think he's evil. He may not be telling us everything but that doesnt make him evil.

Oh and vampires are evil. They all deserve to die, Go Hylden :)

fneh
22nd Jun 2003, 19:54
I think you're all thinking too hard about janos here.
Here's my resoning:

BO2 when he was thrown into the demon world or whatever.
HE IS A dumbass. He all dramaticly jumped to attack the SL then just got his ass kicked. C'mon! what kind of Greatest Vampire to ever live gets his ass kicked so badly?

SR2 When he was killed:
the staff disabled his abilities and he was too concerned with saving raziel (so he could complete his destiny) than himself. He said so himself that saving raziel that once was his purpose.


I;;m guessing we'll see more of him in defiance. Raziel is going to resurrect him. I'm guessing this is why raz and kain are at each others throats again. Kain will want nothing but HIS way for the good of Nosgoth. Raziel just wants HIS OWN way that benefits him. Raziel's stupidity is boundless......

dangerizer
23rd Jun 2003, 01:31
I still want to know what is so different about the reaver when raziel goes to pick it up in jano's place. raziel says he felt nothing like the other reaver in williams tomb.

someguysteve
23rd Jun 2003, 02:12
I still want to know what is so different about the reaver when raziel goes to pick it up in jano's place. raziel says he felt nothing like the other reaver in williams tomb.

the difference is that in William's tomb the blade contains Raziel's soul, in Janos's keep the blade is merely the blood reaver (w/o Raziel's sour) which later absorb's Raziel's soul before the thing with William's tomb. so essentially he feels his own soul while in the tomb and later (earlier in time) he feels nothing because it is just a sword

dangerizer
23rd Jun 2003, 02:34
Originally posted by someguysteve
the difference is that in William's tomb the blade contains Raziel's soul, in Janos's keep the blade is merely the blood reaver (w/o Raziel's sour) which later absorb's Raziel's soul before the thing with William's tomb. so essentially he feels his own soul while in the tomb and later (earlier in time) he feels nothing because it is just a sword

But after the soul reaver is created it goes after kain not raziel. that makes no sense. raziel keeps from striking down kain but was able to let go of the reaver. if the soul reaver wasn't created from this then what you are saying makes no sense. it did not try to devour raziel then in the cathedral when kain was there. from what chris said the soul reaver is not created until raziel is consumed by the blood reaver. so i don't think what you said really fits.

Dace
23rd Jun 2003, 07:02
Well if you are talking about when Raziel was trying to resit killing Kain that was more a matter of history forcing Raziel to do something than the soul reaver wanting Kain's blood. Raziel was supposed to kill Kain, the weight of history was catching up to them and it was going to force him to do so. However Raziel resited and spared Kain's life thus changing time.

As for the diffrence in reaction. The soul reaver already contained Raziels soul so it didn't give off the same dread that the blood reaver did. This is because the blood reaver was seeking Raziels soul and he could feel that. When he held the soul reaver on the other hand it already had his soul in it so it did not posses the same hunger.

kain to raziel
27th Jun 2003, 07:06
Well so far what we have seen from Janos is that he is Mr.nice guy that can't fight a lick! I realize Moebius's staff disabled him against the Sarafan lieutenants but that fight against SL was pretty dissappointing from Janos. I tend to think Janos will come back from the Demon Dimension with bad intentions for Kain and Raz.

Dace
27th Jun 2003, 08:06
Originally posted by kain to raziel
Well so far what we have seen from Janos is that he is Mr.nice guy that can't fight a lick! I realize Moebius's staff disabled him against the Sarafan lieutenants but that fight against SL was pretty dissappointing from Janos. I tend to think Janos will come back from the Demon Dimension with bad intentions for Kain and Raz.


Thats a matter of when though. He gets thrown into the demon dimension in the future. At the time the game picks up for Raziel and Kain they'll be waaaaaaaay into Nosgoth's past. It's not likely they would meet the new Janos until after they travel past the time of BO2.

Which kinda brings me to another point. Maybe I've missed something but why do people keep mentioning evil Janos from BO2. Or rather a Janos after BO2. If this game picks up right after they left off then the events of BO2 have theorltical yet to occur and thus unless one travels past BO2 we are not likely to see the results of Janos being tossed into the other realm.

Just a something I was curious about since I've seen more than a few refrences to it.

Osyris
7th Jul 2003, 20:34
Right people are just makin stuff up now.

Janos is the Reaver Guardian.

Raziel is the Chosen One. a saviour.

Janos is a good guy. Janos is the key to finding out Raziels Purpose.

i THINK Raziels purpose will be to save the both Janos's Race the Ancients and Nosgoth as a whole. after all what good is a Messiah if he doesnt save the Race that worships him.

as far as this whole Janos is manipulating Raziel to evil ends stuff. i personally think its paranoia! Raziel is beset on all sides by mallevolent forces manipulating him to there own ends, this is true, but Janos is not a mallevolent force, and i think people are looking for twists and deception where there isnt any.

Umah Bloodomen
7th Jul 2003, 21:26
People are entitled to believe whatever they want, regardless if you agree with them or not. There are plenty of well-rounded threads and explanations to support the malevolent intentions of Janos Audron. Instead of publically criticizing the opinions of others, perhaps you should take the time to fully read those opinions before forcing your own upon the masses. We may not be correct in our theories, but then again, you may not be either.

Osyris
7th Jul 2003, 21:36
i can only applogise. now that i read my post it was a little out of order. everyone is entitled to there own oppinion. sorry all.

punkst4r
11th Jul 2003, 07:11
Hey Osyris I see what you mean about all the twists and deception being made up but you should do what every one else did and take every single little event into consideration and you can see their point of view which to me also makes sence.

Osyris
11th Jul 2003, 18:57
i get what your saying, i honestly do and im not trying to attack people. but i just dont see any proof that supports the theory.

i just think that since so many characters in the game have proved to be something other than what they first appeared that people have begun to expect it from every new character they encounter.

basically for the story to draw to a close i think that someone somewhere is going to have to tell Raziel the trueth. i believe that Janos is that one. this doesnt mean i think he's squeaky clean and that he hasnt done terrible things in his past, but i think his agenda coincides with the restoration of Nosgoth, and not with forces that tore down the pillers and cursed his race.

if you still think im wrong make me a believer. show me the proof and ill bow my head and concede the point. :)

Dark God Francisco
11th Jul 2003, 21:12
I really don't think Janos is evil. He seems to be genuinely nice and be the only person in nosgoth who isn't trying to screw Raz over.

punkst4r
13th Jul 2003, 06:40
Look at the ancient vampire in ign.com that raziel is facing and if you think that looks like janos it might change your perspective on the janos being evil thing.

Vampmaster
13th Jul 2003, 12:22
And if you read the gamespy preview, you'll find...

Osyris
13th Jul 2003, 13:21
heheh no sooner do i challange people to prove to me that Janos is evil than a picuture of an ancient floating infront of Raziel with his reaver appears!
Dang it all!

iv seen the picture and i must agree that it lends no small amount of strength to the arguement that Janos is evil. the picuture is without context, but ill concede that it looks like i was wrong

Zephonim
13th Jul 2003, 14:16
well it could be evil Janos or it could be another entity projecting himself through the body of janos,as i said b4 his eyes tell all(but i dont understand a word they are saying yet:D :D )

KoolKat_EF
13th Jul 2003, 21:37
I'm actually beginning to be confused now, but I've still got my own views for it though I'm beginning to doubt them.

Quicksilver
14th Jul 2003, 15:07
It might not be a guarantee that that pivotal screenshot IS from a boss fight. Perhaps Raz finds Janos' body, slots the heart back in, and resurrects him as planned. Janos might then (after a cutscene or something) just become a floating help desk (a little like Ariel in SR1). You know, you walk up to him, press 'x', and he directs you to the nearest burger bar. It would explain why the winged figure in the screenshots apparently does nothing except turn to face Raz when he moves.

But hey, it's aaall just exposition :)

Osyris
15th Jul 2003, 12:21
i dont think a truelly pivotal screen shot would even be released at this stage in the games development. like i said the picuture is without context. it maybe it is Janos, maybe not. it IS exciting tho:D the game looks great and i cant wait to find out what REALLY going on

:)

punkst4r
16th Jul 2003, 04:21
Probably janos has those spots on his legs because he decayed over time,seeing as how you can resurrect him even after death and he didn't become turn ashes.:o