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SIGIL
14th May 2003, 20:40
I will not attempt or assume to speak for anyone else but I have read quite enough complaints about the supposed shift in focus toward a destruction or degrading end. I am so sick and tired of the automatic assumption that anytime a designer feels the need to flesh out the gameplay that the story and dramatics will suffer proportionately, or vice versa. Just because certain other games fail to achieve excellence in BOTH visceral and dramatic experience does NOT mean that eveyr game with this duality of focus will suffer the same fate.

I do not think for even a second that Ms Hennig ( or is it Mrs? ) will magically lose her wits and mastery of story telling just because there is greater focus on the refinement of combat and gameplay now. Honestly, the SR team has already proven they know how to create dramatic and intriguing stories with high production values to boot, so their new found focus on gameplay is only a natural ( and WELCOME ) evolution. We have always had great stories and production values in the LOK game series, but the gameplay has not managed to rival the dramatic excellence of the series. Mind that I am not saying the gameplay has been bad, I mean that the gameplay has just never WOWED me to the same degree that the story and production does.

At first when I saw the trailor I was abit disappointed in the difference of " feel ", but now I find I am more excited for this title than I have been for any in the series. I now find the " feel ", while different, to be FAR more exhilirating and robust. Where before there was a game series with a great story and good game play, now there comes a game to that series with a great story, great production, AND great gameplay.

To me this new evolution of the series can only be a good thing.

fneh
14th May 2003, 20:47
Chris already said that they were still keeping the story a major factor. All that's happened is they improved the gameplay and made it enjoyable to play as well as what was already making the game. Why everyone thinks having one means you can't have the other is beyond me....

blincoln
14th May 2003, 20:49
Yes. Game series need to evolve over time or they become stale. I'm incredibly happy with the direction Crystal Dynamics is taking Defiance in.

KoolKat_EF
14th May 2003, 20:57
I think we can trust the Soul Reaver team to do a good job.

Sarah
14th May 2003, 21:23
Edit: Yeah, what Sigil said...


I'm not worrying about LoK: D-they do have over 6 months to 1 year left to go; now that it's confirmed that all the voice actors are returning, all I wish for is them to slim Kain down a bit, and to take as much time as is needed.

Riovanes
15th May 2003, 00:57
God bless you, SIGIL, for having some small grain of sense about this whole thing.

BAH!!!

hippiechk
15th May 2003, 01:24
Kudos to you, Sigil!
I simply could not agree more!

I posted this on the gfaqs boards earlier today in response to someone elses complaint and comparison of this to other games:

First of all, none of us can truly compare Defiance to any other game as no one has actually played it yet. It's not fair to judge it solely on reviews and trailers. We can judge it ruthlessly after we have played it.

Every LoK game has been Story over Gameplay, and that has been perfect for my tastes..enough so to make LoK my all-time favorite series, and all of a sudden they

They… what? Give us a game that we've been begging for? Yay!
I agree here. The story is what has captivated me from the very beginning and it's what keeps me coming back for more. LOK is by far my favorite game series just because of the story.

However, I do not necessarily believe that the story will be watered down in Defiance. Perhaps the game play factors have just been elevated? Raising the game play level to that of the story? Let's hope so. Again, none of us will know until we play it.

blincoln
15th May 2003, 01:32
I try not to pull out the "if *you* had seen Amy's office" card too often (=P), but...

...if *you* had seen Amy's office, with the like wall to wall books and films, you'd know she's not going to sacrifice the story. Maybe it will be told differently, but it will still be there.

Sarah
15th May 2003, 01:36
Yah-not everyone else has had the curtain pulled aside for them.... Only the select few, pure of heart and with complex websites, are holy enough to view that fount of knowledge.

SIGIL
15th May 2003, 01:56
Well I thank everyone for the kind replies. When I posted this I was not very sure what kind of response would come from it. I did however feel that every true fan of this game would see where I was coming from on this.

Anyway....................................


God bless you, SIGIL, for having some small grain of sense about this whole thing.

Rio, I have to say I was quite suprised by the brevity of this post. :p :D

Seriously Many Thanks to you and to Hippiechick as well.

But to be honest I figure that we all see what I was talking about whether I was the first to make a thread about it or not. I guess everyone may have gotten a little caught up in the frenzy oif the moment, what with the release of the trailor and the previews of late. Anticipation clouds judgement and as a result we do not always see things so clearly as we otherwise might.

And to Blinc, that would have been so intimidating to me. Being invited to the CD offices. :o

blincoln
15th May 2003, 02:26
Sarah, you can back me up, you were there too =P.

Sarah
15th May 2003, 02:29
Hey-I showed up too early-Amy wasn't there yet. I got to see the walls in her office, and she did have a ton o' stuff on them involving the games, along with a messy desk...
I really don't think the team will sacrifice Story to provide Great Gameplay-I do think they are capable of doing both, especially when they don't get rushed by Corporate Pushing.

Riovanes
15th May 2003, 03:49
Alright, alright Sigil... point taken, I'm a windbag.:p

But even so, I'm glad to see there are other people who understand that awesome gameplay does not equal suckass plot and crappy VO... After all, not every game with a whomping combat engine is DMC...

And for those of you that have seen the holy land of Hennig, to you, I can only say...

BAH!!!

Lady Kreliana
15th May 2003, 04:40
People really have to keep an open mind about this game. They find out that there's going to be more action and gameplay and a little less story, and automatically Defiance is going to be an utter piece of trash simply because it's not what they want it to be.

I don't want this game to be another Soul Reaver. I don't want this game to be another Blood Omen. I want this game to be Defiance. Something original to LoK, something to freshen our tastes, and I feel that's something we need.

^_^

Vampmaster
15th May 2003, 10:01
I'm sure you can see why some of us are concerned because of how other games over compensate for one thing by neglecting the other. What the game needs is balance ;), but if anyone can pull it off it's Amy.

SIGIL
15th May 2003, 15:12
I hear what you are saying Riovannes, however I do not even give DMC credit for good combat.......... and the story OH DEAR GOD don't get me started.

Why?

Well I was getting VERY bored playing DMC one day so I decided to try a little experiment. Just for kicks I closed my eyes and bashed buttons on the controller during a big fight. I kept my eyes closed for about 10 seconds, mashing buttons and whipping the stick around all the while. When I opened my eyes I found that, not only had I lost NO health, I had killed all but like two enemies! And we are talking about a first time rental here. Needless to say the game went back immediately.

That is not good combat. It is spectacular to watch and hear but not intense to experience.

Matthew
15th May 2003, 15:44
SHE-EESH!

The game's not out even yet and this is the second biggest complainer. Whatever actually, don't want to keep counting them.

Dear SIGIL...

... LOK-D, when I last checked, is not out yet.

And WHY on EARTH are You comparing it to DMC?

Did Amy or the gang say that they COPIED everything off DMC?

Wow. You must have some special eyes that read stuff differently.

Oh well.

LOK-D promises to even surpass the all-mighty BO-LOK and we DO NOT want YOU spoiling our fun just because You didn't like DMC.

Quite frankly - no one aparently seems to care about the fact that You didn't like DMC. So SUSH, sit down, let the artists do their work and complain after You've actually played the game.

- Matthew

Evelin The Winged
15th May 2003, 16:10
Yeah! What he said!


all I wish for is them to slim Kain down a bit, and to take as much time as is needed.
Yeah! He must have been eating donuts or somehting...

Morte
15th May 2003, 17:02
Time will tell. I remain indifferent.

Blade2642
15th May 2003, 18:10
Hear hear the mighty SIGIL and his words of wisdom!!! ;)

Riovanes
15th May 2003, 20:00
Originally posted by Matthew
SHE-EESH!

The game's not out even yet and this is the second biggest complainer. Whatever actually, don't want to keep counting them.

Dear SIGIL...

... LOK-D, when I last checked, is not out yet.

And WHY on EARTH are You comparing it to DMC?

Did Amy or the gang say that they COPIED everything off DMC?

Wow. You must have some special eyes that read stuff differently.

Oh well.

LOK-D promises to even surpass the all-mighty BO-LOK and we DO NOT want YOU spoiling our fun just because You didn't like DMC.

Quite frankly - no one aparently seems to care about the fact that You didn't like DMC. So SUSH, sit down, let the artists do their work and complain after You've actually played the game.

- Matthew

Hey Matthew? Go back and read Sigil's first post again VERY CAREFULLY. There are these things in life called sarcasm and irony. Can you say that? S-A-R-C-A-S-M, and I-R-O-N-Y, both of which Sigil has employed extremely effectively in this post to say this:

"Don't complain about the goddamn combat system, because we don't know if it's going to make the story suffer or not - in fact, the story will probably STILL be great, it's just that the game will PLAY better now, which is a GOOD thing."

The title of the thread was an ironic dig at the people that have been *****ing about this all along.

So, do yourself a favor and take your own advice, lad. Sit down, shut up, and go study a literary term or two so you don't jump down someone else's throat out of your own ignorance, yes?

BAH!!!

Vampmaster
15th May 2003, 21:58
While some of my favorite things about the game could have been removed, what I've seen so far is far better than DMC could ever be.

Azazel005
16th May 2003, 13:29
Originally posted by SIGIL
I hear what you are saying Riovannes, however I do not even give DMC credit for good combat.......... and the story OH DEAR GOD don't get me started.

Why?

Well I was getting VERY bored playing DMC one day so I decided to try a little experiment. Just for kicks I closed my eyes and bashed buttons on the controller during a big fight. I kept my eyes closed for about 10 seconds, mashing buttons and whipping the stick around all the while. When I opened my eyes I found that, not only had I lost NO health, I had killed all but like two enemies! And we are talking about a first time rental here. Needless to say the game went back immediately.

That is not good combat. It is spectacular to watch and hear but not intense to experience.

While I completely agree with your original post Sigil I totally disagree with you analysis of DMC's fighting engine - while there may have been times early in the game a player could get away with that 'button bashing' method, try fighting a single shadow like that and I guarantee that you won't survive. I find DMC's fighting engine to be phenomenal, and almost entirely skill based. I delved several long hours into the harder difficulties and I assure at no point was button bashing an option.

Any plan to improve the controls would be wildy aprreciated by me anyway. Whether they base it upon DMC, some other action title or come up with completely new model. Im just glad to see some consideration given to gameplay. Try Button bashing through Sould Reaver 2 and you'll find that most often that works also.

Vampmaster
16th May 2003, 17:54
AFAIK they're using SR2s engine which was exclusive to CD so the controls should be more like SR2 than £$%.

SIGIL
16th May 2003, 18:15
FIRST OF ALL Thank you RIo for the back up it seems I was hasty in my initial impression of you and for that I owe you an apology........... so here you have it.

Secondly, I was not comparing LOKD to DMC at all. I really do not undertsand how that assumption was encouraged. So let me clarify; After having watched the trailor and gameplay vid time and again like a crack head watches the glass pipe, I have no doubt that LOKD will play like a gamer's dream. As for DMC I thought the game SUCKED. I hope no one sees any comparison in that statement.

Further more WHERE, in either of my posts did I COMPLAIN? I was praising CD's new focus on gameplay, and relating my excitement at the prospect.

Finally I do not care if other people about what I care about............:confused: I know there are people whose opinions do not agree with my own, and I respect that. In my opinion though DMC was overhyped and not all that and a bag of chips, with an XL cherrylimeade slurpy in a plastic no spill cup.

Yes the game had it's moments but not enough to really ensorcel me.

As for Azazel005's point. I hear what you are saying and fully agree that there were challenging moments throughout DMC. But to me a player should NEVER for a single solitary moment, be able to paly an action game with their eyes closed. That was the point I was trying to make.

Anyway my thanks to those who did not read the wrong meaning into my ranting I understand it might be difficult to do.

:)

Riovanes
16th May 2003, 18:43
I'd wager your initial impression was probably spot-on, Sig. I do tend to be an ass - but I only do it to people that do it to someone else first, or display such a grievous amount of ignorance, and in such an offensive manner, that I can't ignore it. So I'm basically the forum jackass - but I feel that in most cases I'm pretty well justified.

Besides... DMC did blow pretty bad... Dante had so many possibilities as a character, and instead the developers decided to make a game that would be simple enough for everyone to get into, as opposed to making a work of art out of their concept... But hey, that's marketing for you.

BAH!!!

SIGIL
16th May 2003, 18:55
Well a true Jack ass refuses to admit the fact. So I do not think you fit the bill so to speak.

And yes marketing is the doom of gaming as an art form.

punkst4r
11th Jun 2003, 22:47
Since the story is so good I think that they should make a movie out of it, because that's what really keeps people into the game and it also has a lot of twists and your not sure whats gonna happen next.

Saitou
12th Jun 2003, 06:49
I felt the same way you did sigil. When I first had seen the trailor I was definitly having mixed emotions about LOK- D. As i thought about the game it began to grow on me more and more until i finally was in the mindset of what was i thinking this game is going to kick major @$$! I never thought that a revamped and upgraded combat system would ruin the story though. How could it, when you have such a masterpiece that is LOK.;) Although I was not around to read peoples post complaining and comparing LOK- D (this is my first post:D ) to DMC I find it disappointing that fellow fans would not have faith in CD and Amy to keep up the spectacular and great story of our favorite series.

punkst4r- About LOK being a movie, I'd rather see it as an anime, well that might be a biased opinion:o but imo it be easier.

Evelin The Winged
13th Jun 2003, 17:02
ANIME?! Fah! I can see it as a CGI or whatever you call it but never like a japanese cartoon!

Vampmaster
13th Jun 2003, 23:10
Right, there's no need to translate it into japanese and back to english just to get that badly dubbed effect. (j/k) Conversion to an anime makes sense for japanese games because it adds to the culture of them or something, but the LOK games are made in california. Saitou, are you from japan? Your statement would be understandable if you were and wanted to see it in a format you're used to. I think if real actors can't be used then a LOK movie would be shown best in the format it was made in.

Saitou
14th Jun 2003, 03:26
Yes, I'm used to anime, I was just saying that I thought it would be sort of hard and maybe alittle weird seeing as how most of the movie would have to be done in CGI. While I didnt mean in anime form per se but just in an animated way.

[post script: I live in So. Cal;) but mostly I live and breathe anime]

Zephonim
14th Jun 2003, 13:26
I agree about the cgi movie ,it would be a lot easier to make than a game and most of the time i just play through the soul reaver series to see the videos (wich i have recorded onto video:D ) so an improved fighting system is a welcome even if it is the same as dmc (both are pretty d@mn good in my book) it will be better than just jumping all over the land to get to places quicker and only feeding when you need to !

I think thats makes sense ,yeah!?




These blades now coiled in sinister embrace have inspired terror into the hearts of creatures far more durable than you old man!!!!!! :D

punkst4r
14th Jun 2003, 17:04
When I said to make a movie out of it I meant in the way it looks when there are cut scenes not with real live people because then it would limit the kind of power that raz and kain have.

Apocrypha Roxy
16th Jun 2003, 16:23
I'd love to have a LoK CGI movie... movie(s)...

One for each game, perhaps? Nah... wait... they could just chronicle it into different volumes (you know there's SO much story to tell...) and include in animation/dialogue what you only read in small bits (how the brethren were raised, Kain's life as a nobleman, etc).

I'd become a movie fanatic, then...

Matt from Spam Buddies
16th Jun 2003, 17:31
I wouldn't say now to a cool animated (animated not anime) LOK Series.

It could be done in the same principal they did the Animatrix. As Roxy already said, some chronicle of the ongoings of Nosgoth. They could stick it in the very final LOK game.

... Though I'm pretty sure they'll never do such a thang.

- Matthew

Vampmaster
16th Jun 2003, 21:24
You know how RE:CVX came with a Weskers report DVD where he recaps the games? Maybe they could do something like that some time, but instead of using in game graphics they could re-do some of the stuff like the fights in BO1 so that they're good graphics and then add some extra scenes. It would be sort of a recap DVD and sort of a movie that complements the game. There could be an extra bit covering the events of the game that unlocks (with a password since DVDs don't read memory cards) after you complete it. (CD, when I suggest extras I only mean if there's time without having to delay the game or leave stuff out of it. I make a point of saying that cause I know they read the threads.)

Matt from Spam Buddies
16th Jun 2003, 21:45
Yes... yes, they do. :)

I loved the Animatrix. It's so interesting looking at how different artist had their own point of view of things.

If it is possible, somehow, I'd like something similar in the very end of LOK.

Animated series of the chronicles of Nosgoth... And if different artist do it then they spend less time at it.

Wouldn't it be a nice easter egg in the end? :)

- Matthew

punkst4r
16th Jun 2003, 23:14
I think that the reason why everyone thought that the story would be affected by the new improvement of combat is because everyone is used to seeing trailers with part of the story and this time all that we saw was meaningless combat.Don't get me wrong I love the improvement in combat it's just that it's all I saw.I'm sure that the story will still be as good as ever.:D

Saitou
17th Jun 2003, 02:13
Dont get me wrong, I was simply saying that for me it would be cool as an anime, but I know that would never happen unless i took the time and devotion to do a fanbased one, unfortunatly I have no time. CD doing what Vamp or Matt said would be really nice complement to the whole series and would be such a great refreshing addtion to the the legacy that is kains. The animematrix was anything but "weird.";)

punkst4r
20th Jun 2003, 04:15
They should gather up all the cinematics from the legacy of kain and pu them in chronological order so that we can see exacly where everything took place even though everyone already knows.