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Zero
13th May 2003, 01:16
As I'm sure you all know, this game won't have the skills system anymore. For better or for worse, it's been replaced by biomods. What do you think of this change? Discuss here.

Belenus
13th May 2003, 05:05
Well, I for one like to think in my games. Unfortunately, in order to make games "accessible," many devs today are making design decisions that take decisions out of the players hands so he can play without thinking as much. This is a damn shame. What do we know about DX2? Smaller levels and no skills...heh Doesnt it seem like alot of the RPG has just been forcibly sucked out of the series? If I wanted to play a straight up FPS, I could pick up any number of titles. Why make yet another straight up action game?

If you ask me, the world should have been made more of an open expanse like Morrowind (not totally open, of course, doing this with the entire world would be ridiculous, but maybe city by city you know?). The skill system should have been kept and, instead, Biomods which "overlapped" too much with the skill system should have been removed (like aqualung).

Instead, they went the other way and, it sounds to me at least, like they are bringing us an action also ran. Doesnt anyone else feel somewhat miffed by this? I was really impressed with DX and it is just sad to see such a good franchise deteriorate in this fashion. Unfortunately, it is a growing fashion in the gaming industry to make games that even morons can excell at (compare Freelancer to Privateer 2, for example, or maybe even Rogue Squadron to Tie Fighter).

Bleh, a damn shame man, a real damn shame.

Zero
13th May 2003, 23:36
My thoughts exactly. IMO this game is being dumbed down way too much to accomodate the consoles. I mean, did you see the interface on the screenshots? Sure, it looks nice, but doesn't it seem a bit like it could be operated by a monkey with access to a ten-button controller? I hear the inventory's gone as well. I mean, I'll still buy this game, but I highly doubt that it'll be nearly as good as the original.

atomicslug
14th May 2003, 14:15
I feared this would happen from the very beginning deus ex 2 was announced for BOTH PC and XBOX. Multiplatform games usually end up being dumbed down

It was kind of obvious they decided to take this route. The original wasnt a resounding success in terms of revenue or profits. Sure the game was good [i infact loved it to bits] but it just didnt appeal to the mass audience.


So they decided to dumb it down this time round so they could rake in a bit more cash...

To be honest i would of done the same thing if i was in their position. It makes sense from a business perspective to appeal to the most people as possible.


Anyway...i'm blabbering on here...


Basically i'm dissapointed that they've decided to take this route. However, i wasnt surprised either. This seems to be an increasingly popular trend with game developers today. I fear we wont be seeing many games like the original DX in the near future...

AlteredGlyph
14th May 2003, 17:16
Just wait a second. JC Denton, trained, nano-enhanced operative. And he can't even hold a sniper rifle steady? What the heck was that. It takes 2 minutes to hack a twenty percent keypad? I can only hold my breath for fifteen seconds?
Really, the skills didn't make sense. I still feel that they will have an inventory screen, but then again, did you really enjoy playing tetris with your items? Drop the gep, move the assault rifle, pick up the plasma gun... It wasn't bad, but it got annoying after a while. I, personally, like the new interface, but they'll HAVE to have a few screens, for your notes, etc. Unless, horrors of horrors, you just can automatically open a door if you know the code. That is the one thing I fear. It may be dumbed down to that level. But is it is, I'm still playing for storyline value.

Belenus
14th May 2003, 17:48
AG:

That being said, even special op forces have individuals who have specialty training in certain weapons. While plenty of grunts may know and understand the basic use of the sniper rifle, only a few have mastered its use. Everyone in a SWAT team is not a sniper, for example. IMHO, the skill system made PLENTY of sense.

dae
14th May 2003, 21:23
well...perhaps...but...
if your unsatisfied with DX2...check out the DX1 mod Ghost in the Machine...its gonna be close to 50 hours long...gonna be released Q3/Q4 2003...

http://gitm.deusex-online.com

AlteredGlyph
14th May 2003, 21:34
Belenus, although you ARE right, J.C has spent pretty juch his whole life in training, so I believe he would have better skills than he does at the start of the game. And still, as an agent, that according to the first missions he gets sent on, he works alone, so he would be trained in infiltration tactics. I still wonder how he suddenly gets the ICE breaker when he gains hacking skills. Gradual progress, depending on how much of the tool, weapon, you use, would make sense, but sudden upgrading of skills doesn't make sense. Really, the Biomod system makes a lot more sense.

Belenus
14th May 2003, 22:18
*edit*
One last thing, using your logic: it doesnt make much sense why he isnt fully upgraded at the start does it? I mean, if you have the means why send out your agent incomplete right?

/sarcasm on
"Gee, that would be fun"
/sarcasm off

More sense to you, maybe, but not to me. We minus well just leave it at that.

xMichaeLx
14th May 2003, 22:55
These Eidos bastards steal game copyrights so they can edit the games how they see fit!
I first noticed this with an old game called Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen, the original publisher of that game was Crystal Dynamics, Eidos bought this company so they could have access to game titles associated with CD.
Eidos is nothing more than game pirates. Deus Ex 1 Owned all games of it's day. No game could compete with it's interactivity, it's genious. Now that Eidos has control of the game, they are making it all about graphics and "Coolness", what they don't get is that DX1 wasn't about "Coolness" it was about JC Denton, A ****ING GAME CHARACTER. That was all, it was about editing a game character, making that game character into what you wanted, whether it be a spy, killing machine, evil person, greedy person. DX1 wasn't about "Benchmarking" or "New Trends" it was about Gamers. DX1 was an RPGFPS. not some Console POS game that you play for a month and buy a new game.
Anyone here still play DX1 like me? I still think it is better than games like Quake 3, Unreal Tourny 2003 and BattleField 1942.

That's just me I guess, I would rather play DX1 than go out for great looking POS games.

Sparhawk
15th May 2003, 01:45
it has allready been said, going for more platforms then one, especially instead of solely for the pc.... you get compromises..
i guess this is one of them... i will see and then give my opinion once played, but yeah, not a good feeling about it neither

TheDerf
15th May 2003, 21:53
Wow, what you guys are saying is really depressing.

True, the first one was a great game, but what's this about dropping a lot of what made DX1 great? Deus Ex 2 is being "dumbed down" to fit more action?

I acually loved Deus Ex for its almost completely interactive environment and somewhat lack of action (because I play stealthy). If I wanted action, I would blow chunks out of someone's head in Soldier of Fortune 2.

I thought Deus Ex 2 was going to continue the story of Deus Ex while bringing larger, more interactive environments, with better graphics and gameplay.

If all of this is true, I'll buy it, but I might not like it.
Kind of like seeing Terminator 3.

Oh, and about the sniper rifle issue and some of the other skills, I agree. It's really not that hard to hold a sniper rifle while standing, especially if you've been trained to for almost the whole length of your life. I go shooting all the time, and the only times you'll get "scope twitching" like that is if you're trying to hit something a quarter mile away.

Belenus
16th May 2003, 04:46
"larger, more interactive enviroments"

Nope. Read the interviews, Specter admitted the levels would be smaller. Also, the game will be significantly shorter. I heard them say the "pacing" will be faster. This means MORE action. Add all this to the fact they claim the game will be more "accessible" and there you go.

Belenus
17th May 2003, 03:27
Guys, I got to play DX:IW at E3 for a good while, talk to some reps and am able to better comment on it now.

1st thing: Its not as dumbed down as I had feared. Though it was not implemented as of E3, the dude I spoke to assured me there WILL be an email system, a news system and so on to give the player more in depth knowledge of the story and pertinant information such as atm codes, lock combinations, etc). The big positve here (for me) is that some skills, such as hacking and lockpicking and so on, live on as Passive Augmentations. Passive Augs are on all the time and consume no energy. They are, basically, skills.

2nd thing: Some of the design changes that were made to make the game more accessible actually arent all that bad. Lockpicks and multitools are now one and the same, for example. The change makes a good deal of sense and doesnt detract, I think, from what made DX1 good.

3rd thing: Its not as dumbed down as I had feared but I it is still a bit dumbed down. Example, all ammo = the same (come on, there are some pretty basic console shooters that have differing ammo types...). The big negative here (for me at least) is that the person I spoke to told me there will be no passive augmentations for determining weapon skill. Weapon Modification will become the only way to specialize your character as far as offensive choice. I dont like this one bit.

4th thing: The graphics and physic engine are nice. The sound is nice. Etc etc etc. These arent things that really mattered to me at all in DX1 but I guess its nice they are there in DX:IW.

So, IMHO, there is some bad news here but its not all bad. With any luck, DX:IW will be cool. All that needs to happen is the weapon modification system should be seriously refined to accomodate the fact there are no weapon skills and the story has to be on par with part one. The story bit is gonna be the true test for me, I think. Also, as a side note: I am happy I got to play the game on a PC at the Nvidia booth. The XBox version was very very VERY difficult to control with that horrid controller.

Zero
17th May 2003, 17:27
Ewwww... all weapons use the same ammo? This from the people who decided to make the game more realistic by taking out the music??

I'm still worried.

Ontrose
17th May 2003, 21:52
Yeah after reading all this im really worried too. I think everyone wanted longer, more deeper Deus Ex experience, but now we are getting just another FPS game, like there isnt already enough of these. In pictures DX2 looks like another PD/NOLF.

Its sad that current trend is to make games so that even the most mentally deficient ppl can play them and be good at them. But i wont judge the game until i have played it, but it certainly doesnt look any good.

EDIT: I was really disappointed to both IGN videos, especially after seeing HL2 and Doom3 vids. Combat was never the strongest point of DX1, and in DX2 its all we seem to have..

Zero
18th May 2003, 02:25
Wow, I saw those movies too. Horrible. Nothing but combat.

I'm debating even buying this game at this point. Ion Storm's just been doing one bad thing after another lately when it comes to Deus Ex 2. Don't get me wrong, Deus Ex was (and still is) my favorite game ever, but I'm beginning to reconsider whether or not I'll buy the sequel.

Belenus
18th May 2003, 03:19
Ya, the ammo thing kinda pissed me off too. I really hope they change that. I do believe there will be more to this game than combat but I am skeptical as to how much more. The good thing is the game isnt finished. Alot of things were not implemented as of E3 (like, as I said, the news/email/etc systems were not in - I only got to talk to one NPC, so I cant really judge those interactions fairly at this point). Its very much wait and see.

Also, I saw one of the cutscenes and, well, it seemed very anime-ish. The way the characters were done and so on just did not say "cyberpunk" to me. In game, everything is cool as far as that is concerned. But the cutscene did not make me a believer.

Uncle Ben's Rocket
19th May 2003, 03:17
I smell fear.
Well i can understand. But hold it. Same ammo for everything is impossible! Its madness! Will there not be a variety of guns like the gep gun, plasma rifle, taser, ps20, and auto shotgun? Doesn't make sense man. Doesn't make sense. I can understand if you are playing the demo(Belenus) and the ammo for basic weapons is the same(sniper rifles, handguns, assault rifle). Not many fears on my end of the phone line.

Belenus
19th May 2003, 07:07
I sparked a conversation regarding many of these issues on the Ion Storm boards (under the nick "Fiver"). Heres the link:

http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP619612110&id=13993

Stormraven
19th May 2003, 22:49
hey guys, just reading the stuff u guys are saying, and i think that generic ammo is definetely gay. i mean, if sniper rifle and pistol use the same ammo, either the sniper rifle will have to have the same amount of ammo as the pistol, which gives you practically unlimited sniper shots, or the sniper rifle will have to use more ammo (i.e. 1 sniper round is equal to depleting 10 pistol rounds). That's just gay. If i shoot 4 sniper rounds, and then rush into a compound just to find out my pistol only has 15 bullets left...well, you get my idea. Download and play the demo of Oni, and you'll understand why generic ammo is so bad.

ENERGY weapons made by the same company (i.e. GenFlash Plasma Rifle and GenFlash RailGun) could make sense using the same ammo 'cause energy weapons use electricity to operate, and if the weapons were made by the same fictional company, then it would make sense that the weapons use the same energy packs. But try to cram a MP-5 magazine into a Colt .45, and....well

you know


boom

brilliantcombat5
20th May 2003, 01:30
Well i dont know aout you guys but i was terrified of Bob Page. I would be in class and hear someone whisper and thinkit was him. His complex was great and using the GEP gun was really intense . This game made characters important and really there.

Of course DX@ is being develeloped for Xbox, huge mistake. The console gamers want a quick fix that they can show there friends a cool game. DX was great and I hope Spector doesnt tinker with a mega success.

NoNicknameForMe
20th May 2003, 03:04
Energy weapons using the same ammo, isn't really a big problem.. it makes more sense on a real world scale too. What intellegent millitary given the option to use a standardized ammo wouldnt jump on the chance, if the ammo could fill all the roles needed. The only reason bullets are different sizes are they have diffrent purposes. A 30.06 round is made to do something totaly different than a 9mm round, however, what if using a standardized energy source they could acomplish the same goals. So, in that vein it makes perfect sense and is actualy quite well thought out. I'm confident enough to assume that projectile based, aka: bullets, weapons will use differing ammo while energy based weapons will probably have a standardized amunition source. Leaving the choice up to the player which to pick, you dont have to use the energy rifle over the 30.06 rifle, but if you're fighting advanced millitary you will probably want the energy rifle since its almost assured there weapons will use the standardized energy amunition, leaving you with plenty of ammo. I'm guessing you'll start with fairly basic weapons and generaly have a more powerful bullet based weapon than avaliable energy based weapons. IE: You'll own a 12 guage shotgun and a nice trusty uzi, while also having an energy based pistol. Allowing you to, in essence, upgrade your weapons. Along with the weapon mods you should beable to have an impressive arsenal.

I also agree that all aiming should be based on you're individual skill not some arbitrary stat. You'll improve as you play the game and that should be enough, if it isnt you can always add in a mod to decrease recoil or add a few more rounds to a clip. There were alot of bad things in DX that people liked just because they were new, even if they weren't all that great. The only really bad sinking feeling I get about the game is that in the IGN video the guy dosent get set on fire when doused with a flame thrower. I'm sure thats just not done yet, i'm gunna try and stay optimistic at least.

On a last little note, if a process is overly complicate its sound logic to simplify and stream line the given process. If that means relegating a silly exp system to a mod system, or making the HUD less cluttered then so be it. I think alot of you are seeing a few things be simplified for the best and are jumping the gun and assuming the worst for the rest of the game. Just keep telling yourself, "this is just a game it will not do anything except give me entertainment, it wont perform miracles and it wont get me laied." Do that, and you won't end up being worried about the game months before we see anything of substance on it. Even the DX guys said that the E3 demo was mostly just to get there name out in the field. It wasn't any real representation of the final game. IOW it was a tech demo made to get attention and gather "ooh's and ahh's" from the crowd. If having an E3 build with more fighting gets more attention, then hell, add more fighting. Wait till Warren says "okay this is it, cast your critical gaze on my product and rip it apart" it's probably best to reserve such naysaying.



Ahhhh, I don't feel so bad about the game anymore, i'm thinking DX:IW is going to give HL2 a nice run for its money. HL2 might win out just because of its general appeal as a run and gun taken to the next level, but its not going to cramp DX:IW's style any. That would be like saying Michael Jackson is cramping "insert generic boy band name" 's style.

TheDerf
22nd May 2003, 03:41
Well of course Half Life is gonna r*pe Deus Ex in action and copies sold, but if Ion Storm would just stick with what they have over Half Life ("innovation" pretty much sums it up) instead of fighting Sierra at their own mastery and therefore appealing to a stupider audience, then I believe the Deus Ex series will become just as popular as any other game.

Montial
22nd May 2003, 05:00
Originally posted by NoNicknameForMe
Energy weapons using the same ammo, isn't really a big problem.. it makes more sense on a real world scale too. What intellegent millitary given the option to use a standardized ammo wouldnt jump on the chance, if the ammo could fill all the roles needed. The only reason bullets are different sizes are they have diffrent purposes. A 30.06 round is made to do something totaly different than a 9mm round, however, what if using a standardized energy source they could acomplish the same goals.

Anyone who played the mod for deus ex, hotel carone, will note the introductiuon of a new weapon, the NSF laser. This weapon finally came up with a use for those useless (well, i think they're useless) prod chargers. It used them as ammo, quite smart. Unfortunately, the mod ended before i could really see how effective this was.

brilliantcombat5
22nd May 2003, 17:50
Cmon man, the prod chargers were quite effective for non lethal takedowns. I used them first to stun the baddies then use my handy knife(which i always kept) and slashed them in the back of the head for a easy kill. I played the game low key and tried to not alert anyone.


THE BEST THING ABOUT DX WAS THAT YOU COULD PLAY STEALTH BUT WHEN AN ALARM WAS SOUNDED YOU COULD GO OFF WITH HEAVY WEAPONS.

anyway, i like the charger and am trying to upgrade my system for DX2, but no date is set so i'm trying to save dough.


Thanks for reading Peace!

Konky
23rd May 2003, 10:48
I really liked everything in DX, just the last few levels sucked a bit i think.
I liked skills, those were those 1way choices you had, it was nice enhance the player like that.
I will miss them for sure, they were a important part of DX imho.

I will miss the inventory, looks like most did not like it.
I enjoyed to sort my directory, small items there big guns over there smaller firearms here.

And the big levels were the best damn, i did not know the leves get smaller!??!?
That really sounds like they managed to ruin DX2 just for the sake of those consoles!?

For me it sounds like they put everything good of DX away, use a new engine and force it into a console to make more money.
I fear this might not get the game i expected/waited for.

Zero
23rd May 2003, 20:25
My thoughts exactly. It's looking way too oversimplified and stripped down at this point to be of any interest to me.

Krynn72
28th May 2003, 01:55
It sounds to me like this game will actually suck now. I wasnt really following all the pre release info, just looking at the screens (And i HATE the HUD they have now). But after seeing this, i dont think even the story could save this game. Way to go EIDOS, you messed up a perfect game for the sake of a crappy console, i hope your happy. BTW i probably wont buy this game now, even if it gets good ratings. I think perhaps they should listen to some of us fans and delay the game so they could fix it. But since thats not gunna happen, they arnt getting my money. Man i hope they fix this for DX3.

Also on not so slightly different topic, i hope that games will not contiue their current course of dumbing games down. I know that SWG is making their game dumbed down for the newbies, and i hope to god that it doesnt ruin that game. I mean seriously, as games advance in technology and whatnot, shouldn't they become more complex and difficult? Dont bring us normal, moderatly intelligent gamers down with the less experienced, and whiny gamers!!!

VodunLoas
28th May 2003, 09:32
You FOOS! All I've seen is flame about DX2. Just leave this board if you don't like whats DX2 has to offer. I hate skills it's a *****. Who said this was all action, it is said from Warren that you can beat the game without even shooting a weapon. Can't wait till this game comes out. DX1 was all about action :confused: you had to atleast shoot something in DX1. Now your talking about DX2!? Tisk tisk... you people need some help, you have dumb minds.

Neutrino
28th May 2003, 10:39
What happened? No music? No RPG Skills?

What are they thinking? Deus Ex won a bunch of game of the year awards... And is one of my favorite games of all time.. Why mess with something that works?

What a big mistake to take out the RPG skills. They need to draw in the RPG crowd ( I am one of them), by making an action RPG like Deus Ex.. Which was a lot of fun... It is fun to acqure points and then assign them to different areas of expertise... Experienced game designers are working on this game right?

The music is great in Deus Ex, and taking it out, is a mistake... Without background music, it get's kind of boring..

Oh well, just another action game... I shall pass... I don't support action games... I support RPGs... That is the genre that I support.

Bummer, A game I was looking forward too goes down in flames...

Phronesis
28th May 2003, 14:08
I think we might be jumping the gun here. Some things do sound pretty bad (ie same ammo) but if they are implemented correctly it might work out. For example, the ammo - Normally I would think this is terrible in a game, but with DX I might be able to accept it based on how its presented. Either the energy weapon route or even Nano bullets that change to fit the chamber of the gun they are being fired from (albeit that’s a bit cheesy, I could see something like that being cool in a shadowrun-ish setting).

Now the big question seems to be the skills. How will getting rid of skills affect the game? Aside from the difficulty factor, I'd have to say that it would affect the game less than imagined. As it was the skill system in DX1 was a token thing. It appeared that we had several choices, but really the choices were some what limited. Certain skills were a must while other skills would only be good for an interesting alternative a second try through the game. They were nice to have but I'd like to see detailed development of the aug system to make the game more cyberpunk like in nature. At the end of the day, I'll hold my opinion and my fears of the game at bay until I actually play it. The game will not be the same as DX1, even if they changed nothing.

Neutrino
28th May 2003, 16:58
Originally posted by Phronesis

As it was the skill system in DX1 was a token thing. It appeared that we had several choices, but really the choices were some what limited. Certain skills were a must while other skills would only be good for an interesting alternative a second try through the game. They were nice to have but I'd like to see detailed development of the aug system to make the game more cyberpunk like in nature

Well, you said it yourself, the skill system gave the game replay value. And I replayed Deus Ex, over and over again with emphasis on different skills and therefore different strategies (I completed the game like 7 times).. Roleplaying elements also give me something to work towards. It's an obsessive addiction factor.. As I look forward to accumulating the points and applying them to INCREASING skills to become "ALL POWERFUL"... You may call it token... I, on the other hand, do not... It is a central motivating factor to me.

I an old time gamer who has been playing computer games for years... First on my Amiga 500, then to the PC with the Ultima Underworld games. I believe Mr. Warren Spector was the designer of those games, and also Deus Ex... He is very talented and has an eye for the games that I love, and that work for me... Maybe he doesn't have that much control these days in the design decisions... Or maybe he is giving too much freedom to some of the younger, inexperienced, game designers, who wish to leave their own mark in game design and not copy someone else...I wish people would leave their EGOS aside and think of the audience (ME)... And stick with design decisions that work...

However, Deus Ex was a huge, wonderful, deep, atmospheric gameplaying experience, with an awesome story line. It was simply kick ass. Oh, maybe I might play Deus Ex2... I probably will... I shouldn't though.,,It goes against my important rule "Not to financially support action games".

sean74
28th May 2003, 22:55
OK First impression when I heard no more skills.. OMG that SUX! and I immediately voted "i hate it give them back"

Biomods
Having read the posts though my opinion has changed somewhat. Passive biomods that can accomplish the same thing as the skills do could definately be beneficial. The skills and the augs got kind of redundant in places

Inventory
Though the inventory was a bit clunky in the first one (at my first impression) I quickly got used to it and hate seeing it go. Rather than take it out I'd prefer seeing them just improve upon it a bit. If I recall correctly, you could have 8 positions open, but if they weren't open in the shape of a big 8-position-filling-item then you couldn't pick it up. I'd prefer seeing the inventory updated to dynamically reposition itself. (ie auto-defragment the inventory like defragmenting a hard drive)

Having to make your choice about carrying that big GEP gun or carrying several other useful weapons was frustrating, but in a good way, and definately added to the game. Allowing you to pick up and carry everything you ever see just makes it "too easy"

Ammo
This bothers me quite a bit. This has to be a mistake, if the sniper rifle takes the same ammo as a pistol someone has been smoking something since DX1 and should be removed from the developer team. :p

I agree with everyone else on the energy weapons though. If their ammo is considered power-packs then they could hypothetically all just use the same interchangeable power packs, and/or those power packs could be recharged somewhere even.

Conclusion
I really hope the dev team realizes that Deus Ex's unique interface, skills and aug system helped make it IMO the best single-player FPS ever and don't stray too far away from a winning recipe by adding unnecessary ingredients from other popular games.

Honestly, if all they did was release an add-on pack with new levels for the original game, using the same game engine they would have been able to get $40 out of me in a heartbeat. So hopefully they don't screw it up by trying to make it something completely unrecognizable.

Panpiper
4th Jun 2003, 00:20
You would think that marketing executives (and let's face it, the big design decisions are made by marketing) would get a clue after a while. Only one in twenty computer games ever makes a profit. You would think that after a while people would clue into the notion that doing business just like everyone else maybe isn't such a good idea?

Virtually everyone out there is marketing to the largest market segment, to the bottom of the pyramid, to stupid people. Stupid people make up the majority of the population. Marketers it would seem are incapable of thinking beyond that point. The fact that 99% of all games are made to compete for that exact same market of stupid people is lost on them.

*Clue Time* Intelligent people don't buy stupid games and very few intelligent games are produced each year. You can compete with 99% of the games for 90% of the market or you can compete with 1% of the games for 10% of the market. Your odds of making money are a lot better making games for intelligent people.

"Twitch, twitch, boom, boom, Oo... pretty picture..." is all stupid people seem able to handle and the marketers line up to give them just that. A marketing department gets hold of the rights to do a sequel to a great game and sees only the marketing potential of the name. I'd give high odds to bet that 90% of the marketing department of Eidos have never even played Deus Ex and have utterly no clue as to why it won rave reviews.

Certainly, according to their thinking, the raving over Deus Ex had nothing to do with the fact that missions could be played completely devoid of "Twitch, twitch, boom, boom, Oo... pretty picture...", else they would not be turning the game into a 'faster paced' game. Certainly it had nothing to do with the sheer size and scope of the original game, else they would not be making the game with smaller and fewer levels. Certainly it had nothing to do with the customizability of the characters so as to tune the character to your play style, else they would not be removing things like the skill system and inventory.

Deus Ex 2 will be a twitch game, dumbed down to the point where every stupid person on the planet can play the game without having to think a single thought. Just like virtually every other game company out there, Eidos takes a great game and by changing it's market from intelligent gamers to the larger market of stupid gamers, they pretty much guarantee that it will be just like 99% of all the other games out there. Another rehash of "Twitch, twitch, boom, boom, Oo... pretty picture...".

Idiots.

TheDerf
4th Jun 2003, 00:58
/\
|| Lots of people have good opinions to share
|| about DX2. I just hope the people at Ion
|| Storm are reading posts like this.

I've read that a lot of you guys hate the inventory... but I came across this glitch by accident and I'll share it with you, because it's made my gaming experience fun.

When in the inventory screen, click and drag whatever is in the top left corner, and hit escape to switch out of the menu. So what you should've done is cancel out without placing the weapon/item anywhere. This creates "negative space" under that thing you've just dragged and not dropped. If you pick up something from the world, it's picture will acually be under the item that was never placed and you will have it in the inventory.

Here's some things I can tell you about this glitch
1. You can't upgrade (accuracy, recoil, etc etc) a weapon that is under a weapon.
2. You can place an infinite number of items/weapons under a item/weapon, as long as you drag and not drop the top weapon every time.
3. You can carry all the weapons in the game in 8 slots.

What you should do is number the weapons that you're putting under a weapon because you can't reach it ever again except by hotkey. You should also not number the weapon that is on top of all the other weapons, because it takes up space that you'll need.

If you already knew this, good for you, but if you didn't, plan on spending the next few weeks slaughtering people in Deus Ex.

#37
4th Jun 2003, 01:23
If there are nano-augs which are passive, and once you get them they are on forever, that seems workable. I mean, if upgrading is the aim, so that over the course of the game you can improve, it would be good to have an improved pistol aiming (for example) which you don't have to turn on whenever you're shooting.

Captain_Simian
5th Jun 2003, 03:03
The only viable solution if eidos want to make their loyal dx1 customers happy but still make dx a profitable franchise, is to give the user choice.

All that needs to be done is to allow the user to decide how much control they like, either as a difficulty setting or as a setup option.

In this way everyone could be happy, it obviously would cost more for eidos to implement it, but by the looks of every message board i've seen, the amount of potential buyers on the hardcore gamer side is dwindling fast. And there is no doubt that they would provide more than enough revenue to cover costs. As a side note the majority of reviewers that give awards to make boxes look pretty are hardcore gamers as such another bonus to eidos.

This doesnt just apply to skills, but to every aspect of the game. It doesnt need to be hugely customisable, just two difficulty setting choices: AI difficulty, and complexity (from just let me play already to control freak).

Otherwise eidos is moving into the same class as infrogrames and microsoft. :(

TheDerf
5th Jun 2003, 05:55
Lemme just start by saying Infogrames sucks.

I don't think putting your "settings" into the game would work the way as planned. For example, in Silent Hill 2 (the scarriest game ever made), theres a setting for your Action level (which would cover the number and health of enemies in the world), and there's a setting for Riddle (that covers how complex the game gets). In an area of this game, you have you collect a certain number of coins to insert into a dresser in a specific order to unlock it and advance. Should you set the riddle level harder, it would only raise the number of coins you collect and complicate the hints that the game drops for you about the order they go in. How this relates to your "complexity" idea would be very similar.

The only way to make us hardcore gamers and the idiots who play to see someone's head explode (which includes me too) is to make 2 different games. I wish that Enter the Matrix would've been rated mature with blood, guts, and *ss flying everywhere, but instead it was rated T and there was matrix coding in place of what should've been bodily fluids. I think it would've sold just as many copies as it did and please people of a more broad audience if they made two. This wouldn't work for Deus Ex since the series isn't as popular as some would like it... and I'm just rambling on for no apperent reason, but my thoughts will not just fade away! No! I'll submit my reply, and you'll read them!

Captain_Simian
5th Jun 2003, 09:31
First of all, the feasability of creating a second game (for people who have a brain, or in your case want to see the parts of someone's brain splattered on a wall) is nil regardless of the company. Not even Lucasarts would do that.But that's off the main point of this.

Secondly: at least you have one thing right, Infogrames is the worst of all publishing companies (except maybe microsoft since the xbox came into being)

Thridly: Your example is along a different line to what i was suggesting. I am not suggesting they change any part of the storyline, or any part of the way the computer reacts to you, or the number of AIs present. What I AM suggesting is that there be a "simple" mode and an "advanced" mode. In simple mode you are not bothered by options related to tweaking your character, allowing those people to get on with the action. However for those of us out there who want more control of the character's development we can be given the extra info and options - whether through a skills system or other method.

This is an approach that has long been a part of racing games.

After all:
"The problem is choice," or lack thereof.

Leo
5th Jun 2003, 10:44
Could somebody explain what a biomod is? I do not get how can Alex shoot better or whatever with [I do not know what a biomod could be] - a new eye or something?

sean74
5th Jun 2003, 12:18
From what I understand a biomod is basically an aug that doesn't require power, so it won't drain your power cells.

You need to suspend disbelief for a bit here.. cause this is futuristic sci-fi stuff that just doesn't exist.. so trying to understand it and force it into conventional science won't work :)

I imagine the sharpshooter biomod could be something like a cybernetic-enhanced eyeball.. or some kind of cybernetic muscle control system that keeps your arm from swaying while trying to take aim. Obviously one of the hardest parts of sharpshooting is maintaining a steady enough hand to keep your sights on the target, or otherwise anyone that could see a target could aim at it and hit it every time. As far as I know, steady-hand is the first thing you want to have, then you can start worrying about wind and correcting for distance.

Leo
5th Jun 2003, 18:33
unreal things:

when you pick up a dead body that has a pool of blood under it the blood dissapears somewhere, no, I do not like it, and better, when ya throw the body new blood appears.

how can all weapons have the same ammo? how can u turn a bullet into a shotgun shell, into a rocket [that explodes :) ] , into a flamethrower's cannister [seriously, not the napalm cannister! NO WAY]

I had this many times: when lots of people run in a panic everywhere [i do not remember, maybe it was Hong Kong] the terrorists recognize my foot sound, like, they must be smart or they are cyborgs? this is unreal, if JC walks or runs close to a terrorist he recognizes you and iimediately shoots, like, even if the terrorist does not see you .. he just already knows somehow where you are and finds you in some seconds ... unreal ...

will there be a way to uninstall augs ... this would be very useful

When a dead corpse contains omething I already have in my inventory it just dissapears from the corpse, so I cannot pick the item later .. this was so, I rescued Gunther, I chose to give him my pistol, to my surprise, I lost my upgraded pistol and I had to kill a terrorist just to get a pistol. Of course, the terrorist shot me at first attempt .. so I started to wonder, where all the pistols dissapeared if JC took only the ammunition

one more weird thing, after you finish the Liberty island, whan you first get to Battery park, there is a guy with a flamethrower undergroung the Castle Clinton, when I killed him, to my surprise the flamethrower contained only one unit of ammo, man, i tried it some other way .. in one attempt I killed him immediately, second, I shot at him, he charged at me, I thought what the hell, he will shoot out the one unit of ammo fast and then will try to run away, mmmm, he cooked me, real good ... I do not like unrealism especially in such a great game as DX

one more thing before i run out of ideas for now ... bad guys can see you a mile away ... the level when you had to stop the missile from launch [one of the last levels] just at the beginning, a guy with a sniper rifle ... man, he did not use his scope to find me .. usual humans are acctually better than upgraded Dentons [everything is good until some unreal features are included in appropriate difficulty levels. If I select Easy at first go then it should be EASY - no superhuman hearing, no mile-away spotting]

sean74
6th Jun 2003, 02:59
Leo, good points, you should copy and paste the post and start a new thread on gripes about unrealistic behavior in DX1

TheDerf
6th Jun 2003, 04:29
Yes Leo, very good points.

I want to point out the poor physics of this game, especially in "dealing" with people. Every person who can be killed dies in one of three ways: falling forward, falling backward, or blowing up. It's of course unrealistic how 1/3 deaths are the same thing. I think that Ion Storm should take some of the people off of the Hitman crew to do a lot of the physics, because when you kill someone in Hitman, they never fall the same way. And when I get done chopping someone up with my sword or shooting someone with my sawed-off, I expect to see some marks.

skeleton
6th Jun 2003, 18:14
thats a bad thing about sequels.
when a sequel is planned for a very good game, fans tend to set expectations really high for it. i mean, the higher your expectations, the greater you will fall...

one word of advice, dont expect too much.. keep it low.... wait till the game comes out than you can judge it

TimeBeast
6th Jun 2003, 20:22
Starting off with the proposed biomods system, opposed to skills, I like it. Firstly, I felt that the inventory screens and notes were a bit intrusive to the game. They very much broke away from the immersion factor. I like the idea of the new HUD that is burnt into you eye, and hope it is implemented well. Back to biomods, I agree with the people who think the skills system is flawed. In the scope of a game, especially ones that tell a story like DX, the length of the game doesn't span years of gradual training, but a sequence of events that lasts a month at the most. Skill's are a method of advancement, but not the most realistic. Firstly, you don't learn how to fire a pistol by 'exploration bonuses'.

I'm just saying that it seems like they're aiming for something that is more immersive, doesn't break away from the feel that your in the world, whilst keeping the idea of progression. You start off well training but ill equipped. A craftsman is as good as his tools, and hence progression of the character in the game is the improvement of your tools.

Sliding slightly laterally, I'm curious how the new inventory system will work. Once again, I'm hoping it will inspire more realism. In the first game JC could keep a hell of a lot of items in that jacket of his. Modern games are tending towards a more halo-esque approach with slots that only accept certain weapons. It allows you to both think tactically while adjusting your armoury to your play style. Mr. UT takes the fully automatic assault rifle, whilst the snake wannabe takes a semi-auto silenced SMG.

The issue of ammo all beig the same could work. I can see how it might be implemented as part of the story. I can see that it might work as a game mechanic. However, I think it detracts from the elements of realism to the game. Also, I want to be able to charge at a bot, my shotgun roaring with sabot rounds until *click*, I'm out. And 12 guage pellets do jack. And the bot has pointed all it's guns at me...

However, despite all these issues, I think DX:IW still has a lot of potential in storyline, depth, and flexibility. Deus Ex suceeded for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it had a kickass storyline with voice acting that exceeds a lot of games on the market. Then there was the depth- you could stick to mission objectives only, ignoring any sub-plots or quests or extra information to flesh out the game. Or you could hack people's emails, see what they thought of you and other people. See their secret agenda's and desires. Make them more human believable characters. One of my favourite moments in DX is where you walk in on Simmons complaining about his biolectrics to Jaime Reyes. It just makes both of them seem that much more believable.

Depth... partially tied in with the previous points. the datacubes scattered around meant that if you took the effort you didn't need multitools or lockpicks or high level hack for most situatuions. Again, the fleshing out of the story line and it's characters was good. I liked the involvment with some of the more minor characters (Sandra and her father, the chicks trying to get into the dance club). Some of it had no reward except the warm fuzzy feeling of helping someone.

This brings me to flexibility. The issue with the Rentons is complex. Firstly, you can run into Sandra in the street or be asked to look for her by her father. At that point, you can just let take care of herself, lend a hand by scaring the pimp off, or putting a bullet in his head (whether you talk him into a fight or just draw and down him without a word). After that, you have to deal with Jojo. You can choose to let things go down... Jojo kills her dad. You can choose to let her Dad exercise some power by lending him your pistol and taking Jojo out, but Sandra doesn't like that. Another option is to not empower the citizen but deal with Jojo when he becomes trouble. This results in Sandra sticking with her father. I'm sure there's other possibilities I've missed (I never tried killing Sandra before the business with Jojo goes down).

It's little things- a lot of attention to detail and effort (they wrote a whole book just for snippets to appear in game) that made it GOTY. I have full faith that Deus Ex : IW will suceed as DX did.

For those of you who didn't like guards hearing you in noisy, crowded marketplaces, or just bacuse you walked funny, DX:IW's new sound system should make things a lot more realistic and less frustrating.

skeleton
7th Jun 2003, 04:14
ever considered nio-mods = skills?

i mean, you can upgrade your biomods with points, just like you do with skills. Its just that the word 'skills' changed to 'biomod'

IMHO

Leo
16th Jun 2003, 10:05
just because ppl are nice here...

thinking bout that ammo: gets me back to that idea of weapon screen besides inventory, where you could actually "make" the kind of ammo you need, for example, if u need pistol ammo, select pistol, enter a number of ammo you want to make, like, pistol ammo is small, it would take less resource ammo, the boxes you collect .. well the common ammo. A rocket, well, I do not know how this could be done, maybe a rocket could be pickable .. but anyway I do not like the "united ammo" idea.

I do not like the idea of biomods. Can somebody actually explain how this thing can be pulled off? My imagination offers: biomods and augmentations are something different, like, if it would be the same, I dunno, maybe so: one biomod can either add a "skill" or an aug, man, if places for augs are limited .. oh no, I will better leave it to someone smarter.

The HUD burned in Alex's eye? Does anyone have any HUD's in the real life, the HUD displays Alex's inventory, where does he keep all that stuff? In the jacket, why should anyone design a [something] in eye to know what is in jacket. The inventory screen in DX was more real, JC actually looked inside his jacket, not remembered every thing he picks up, it is just my opinion. Game paused when insidee inventory so one could read easy without panic of being detected .. oh yeah, what about objectives and notes screen??? :)

Guess we all should really calm down, if we worry too much DX:IW could turn out to be crap. I have played some games and their sequels too, I have not been to any forums for those games and they looked great to me. One thing to mention, why did they make Matrix [the movie] in bad quality and The Matrix reloaded has such nice scenes, to get ppl attention?

sean74
16th Jun 2003, 23:32
Yeah I'm not sure about the people that are saying that the notes/goals pages distracted from the game.

I'm sure JC kept some notes handy and looked at em from time to time :) I think it worked out fine being able to look at them, and do so full screen

vick1000
18th Jun 2003, 11:43
The Notes and Pics from DX1 were projected mentally via comlink
and conversations stored in a memory system,JC was,for all
intents and purposes,a bio-computer.

Uni-ammo would be friggin' gay,to me the HUD looks far to
interfering,I turned all of them off in DX1.If the levels are only
a little smaller,it would'nt be terrible.The lose of skills would
detract from the RPG feel,but if the passive bio-mod is
implemented correctly,then I don't forsee a problem.I really
don't think Edios will attemt to "dumb" down the game to a
point that it's not popular with it's base user.I'll buy my copy
from Gamestop/Babbages,so I can return it if it sucks.

Leo
18th Jun 2003, 12:09
u read my mind vick[thousand]

only that I played DX with HUD turned on ...
they present Alex as a machine, only that still a human is behind all this [the player] ... the passive augs do make him human-like, but to me Alex is more like a cyborg ... I dunno, machine remote controlled - really, I like JC more

Foten
18th Jun 2003, 16:23
wht is a biomod????????

sean74
19th Jun 2003, 05:03
it's something that modifies your biological charactersistics somehow :)

guess it's not quite a nano-aug but it's still more "million dollar man" than what you're going to get from a street vendor outside of deus ex

NoNicknameForMe
20th Jun 2003, 23:18
Lets face it, skills only artificialy limited you, they did nothing to help you in any way that a biomod couldn't do. They were silly and quite stupid. Why can I use a rifle better because I explored a certian area? With no skills the player's skill is what matters, there are PLENTY of games I play where I start off wasting clips on guys, and by the end i'm getting constant headshots. Lockpicking, multitools need skill to use though, right? No. They are automatic tools and in DX:IW they are one tool a biomod that lets you interface with them or something, might make sense, but skills for automatic tools, wtf? There is not one skill in DX that cannot be removed or replaced with an equlivalent mod. One system for advancement with all the previous systems benefits and none of the weaknesses thats also easier to balence, and you tards do nothing but *****. What they are doing to DX:IW is cutting out all the fat and leaving you with a nice lean tasty easy to digest meal. Sure everyone likes some fat, but I like steak alot more than fat, and if I have to trade no fat for much more steak, so be it.

For you metaphorically challenged, they cut out the over complicated hassle and made all the good parts more prominent. While inventory management and skill distribution can be very fun i'd rather have more DX with less Baulders Gate, Lionheart and Fallout 3 will provide enough stats for me.

Uncle Ben's Rocket
21st Jun 2003, 00:25
Sure Mary....

NoNicknameForMe
21st Jun 2003, 00:32
Ahem the entire name, *****... don't skimp on me you retard.

Uncle Ben's Rocket
21st Jun 2003, 03:18
That post didnt address the issue Mary.





I like augs. ;)

Leo
21st Jun 2003, 06:41
they are trying to make the game more realistic? Like, no unreal elements, every thing has a meaning and so on?

Yeeyoh
21st Jun 2003, 21:52
I Liked the skills very much. !! I jus tthought I'd say that since I voted wrong on that quiz.
I didn't understand the question fully at first. But I liked how the skills I selected as I went along affected the game.
The fist time I went through DX I didn't really take much computers or eletronics. The next time I did. It can be like two different games.

Ductonius
22nd Jun 2003, 00:59
OK, people, about that ammo thing, I'm as big of a fan of DX1 as anyone, and I think that combining the ammo into one could pose major problems, but it is enterly possible for a pistol, a SMG and a rifle to use the exact same ammo.

Take the 5.7x28mm FN round for example. Its used in the Five-seveN (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg18-e.htm) pistol, the P90 SMG (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm), and could theoretically be used in a bolt action rifle as well.

Its not so far fetched to think that, in the future, a carteridge has been developed which can serve equally in pistols, SMG's and rifles.

Now, if they're talking about combining rifle and shotgun ammo, thats going to be very difficult to pull off without some sort of "all ammo is energy and the guns turn it to whatever bullet they need" sort of thing.

vick1000
22nd Jun 2003, 01:38
But would a pistol round have the range of a 30.06 round in
a bolt action rifle?The only thing they can do is make up some
lame *** pretense about nano-ammo,in which the ammo
"morphs"to fit the weapon the clip is inserted in.And,I don't
remember anyone,or thing for that matter,in the game stating
that lockpicks and multitools were"automatic",if by that you mean
we as players hit the button and they work,then a skill for that
makes perfect sense,because we can't get better at doing it in
gameplay.If you want complete reality,NoNicknameForMe,then
live it,and go do whatever you want to do in the games.
Basically I,and alot of other gamers,want replay value and
addictive gameplay,and character development through point
allocation is a large part of those.Maybe a more skill specific
point system could be used,points for hacking from hacking,while
still allowing some points to start the game to allow for a different
path in the game.

TheDerf
22nd Jun 2003, 01:42
That's interesting how you chose the 5.7 round, but yeah, any bullet can be used in a handgun, sub-machine gun, rifle, or machine gun, provided that the gun was designed to use it. Developers of shooting games like to mix up the types of ammo some guns use to make you scramble around looking for rounds for your forray of weapons, and I prefer Deus Ex kept it that way.

Certain guns use certain bullets that are useful for certain things. I don't want to shoot rifle rounds at a target at close range. I don't want to try to hit a target at long range with a round meant for a handgun.

The only way I can be happy with this "same ammo for all guns" deal is if there were so little ammunition in the game to pick up, that you would want to conserve your rounds for situations when you need them most, rather than some terrorist taking a coffee break in central park.

If this same ammo thing is going for shotguns as well, I have a theory of how Ion Storm is going to explain it. When the bullet is fired, a sort of fiber or laser "net" is heated up inside the barrel, cutting the bullet as it exits the muzzle, but that is more far-fetched than my knife idea.:(

Yes, a 30.06 round in some freak pistol would have the same range as if it were fired in a rifle. The weapon has nothing to do with how far it goes.

NoNicknameForMe
22nd Jun 2003, 06:12
Consolidated ammo dosent mean "only one ammo type."

Big Ragu
22nd Jun 2003, 06:22
Originally posted by TheDerf
The weapon has nothing to do with how far it goes.

Actually, the weapon has everything to do with how far a bullet will go. The legth of the barrel to be exact. The longer the barrel, the more muzzel velocity or how fast the bullet comes out of the gun and how far it will go.

But back to the ammo discussion, it would be more realistic to have some ammo that will work in rifles and in pistols because there are rifles that use pistol cartridges, they're called sub-machine guns.

But if ou want to talk about realism, in the entire Deus Ex 1 world, they only had 2 types of pistols. Or only one rifle. Most of the time a game is more fun when it is not as realistic as it can be.

TheDerf
22nd Jun 2003, 07:25
You're absolutely right. I can't believe something as simple as that slipped my mind. I feel like a f***ing idiot. It's been beating me up for hours.:mad:

So heres my lash out in rage.

There are rifles that fire pistol ammunition, but they're still rifles. How do you call a rifle that fires pistol ammunition a sub-machine gun in the first place? You just said it was a rifle!

BAH! Hours pass and I'm still kicking my own a**. I hate myself. I'm going to commit suicide.:mad:

AHhhhhhhhh. I wake up this morning, look in the mirror, and slap myself. What kills me the most is that I was first introduced to this in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when the fat kid got shot through the tube of chocolate. That's how good my childhood was to me... enough to make me... I'm going to kill myself now.

sean74
23rd Jun 2003, 04:11
Originally posted by Big Ragu
Actually, the weapon has everything to do with how far a bullet will go. The legth of the barrel to be exact. The longer the barrel, the more muzzel velocity or how fast the bullet comes out of the gun and how far it will go.

that's not true either. it's a combination of the weapon's barrel length and the ammo's powder-load. You can have a .22 packed with more powder that's going to travel faster, (and in turn farther) than a different type, or even brand of .22 ammo.

TheDerf
23rd Jun 2003, 04:33
Correct, it's both, and that hit me right after I read Ragu's post. I guess I was focused on the idea that the charge of the bullet has everything to do with the propulsion of the round and the length of the barrel only improved accuracy, but now I know that's wrong. Thank you. :)

FrogBlastTheVentcore
28th Jun 2003, 04:48
You know, the first Deus Ex game came out for the Playstation 2 as well as the PC, and it was about the same. I was able to play a version for both the Mac and playstation. In the end, I had to buy the PS2 version, because my computer was too slow and old to handle DX. I still found the game to be really great. It didn't have the inventory system, but it improvised and came out just as well. The only problem it had was long and frequent load times, but the story and gameplay were so good and addictive, that it turned out fine. By the way, DX2 is not gonna have just shooting in it. They designed it so you can get through the whole game without firing a shot, i assure you. there are at least 2 or 3 ways to get through every problem, and i don't think they were dumbing it down just for the XBox. I'll have to buy that version anyway, because my computer is still about as fats as, well, something really slow. I hope this helps put to rest some fears.

Skylink
1st Jul 2003, 12:27
well, time will show.. I trust Eidos, therefore I can't just blame them without even testing their idea

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 06:12
I think ion storm is makeing some big mistakes like the no skill thing, the game is too danm short, the ammo thing. and the HUD.

1. For the skills, there is a very simple solution to that problem. They should take the same system as morrowwind where if you use a certain item enough that skill builds up automaticly without having to replace it with biomods, thus, creating more of a realistic feel.
2. What kind of RPG is only about 20 hours?! I am thinking more about 35-40+ of hours IMO.
3. Now whats up with this ammo thing? They MUST change this. They should make the pistol the same caliber as the rifle if they must take that route. And this time please make the weapon mods show up on the weapon!
4. I think this sudden change in the HUD is a bad mistake. I like the first one where there was blue octagons and the items inside. I hate this cyrcle like HUD its too ugly but the idea of it around the players eye is good.

Mysdrial
2nd Jul 2003, 09:37
If it's actually common ammo across all weapons (which makes little sense), does that mean that plasma/energy weapons somehow use bullet ammo? The GEP equivalent, too?

And, of course..if you only have one bullet type, that's used in both the sniper and the automatic rifle....you can't POSSIBLY balance the number of bullets in the game...

If you're a sniper, there will either be just enough for you (meaning the automatic weapon will be a huge waste of ammunition), or there will be an ass-load of ammo everywhere (to allow those who use the automatic weapons to not run out).

EDIT: I suppose you COULD get around this by having each sniper "shot" fire a "burst" of bullets (say, 5), and have the same size clip as the auto rifle. Still seems mildly silly to me, but oh well..

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
2nd Jul 2003, 10:04
just curious, where did you read the game will be only 20h long?

I'm trying to find infos about DX:IW, but i cant ind anything recent

Lawnboy360
2nd Jul 2003, 12:40
About the length:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/preview_6026317-2.html
[05/06/03]
"Ion Storm has said that Invisible War won't be as long as the rather drawn-out first game, but while the new levels won't be quite as large, they're said to be much more densely populated with mission challenges and characters to interact with. Since the levels will be smaller, you won't be required to hike from one side of town to the other, which should keep the game's pacing somewhat more constant. "

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/preview_2910952.html
[02/14/03]
"Deus Ex was a long game, made even longer by the possibility of saving and reloading to try out different outcomes. We can expect Invisible War to have many of the same qualities, but it will be a somewhat shorter game, likely around 20 hours long albeit with quite a bit of replay value."

More : http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/previews.html

Trollslayer
2nd Jul 2003, 12:40
Originally posted by operative x

1. For the skills, there is a very simple solution to that problem. They should take the same system as morrowwind where if you use a certain item enough that skill builds up automaticly without having to replace it with biomods, thus, creating more of a realistic feel.

No, that would actually imbalance it. Morrowind's system would not work on DX2, simply because Morrowind's system is easily abusable. I can just stand still and let low level enemies hit me to increase my armour skill. I can get on top of a roof and shoot arrows at guars, who, due to their high resistance, will allow me to increase my Marksman skill like there's no tomorrow. No, just no. Just because one system works in one game that doesn't mean it's going to work in every other game.

For one example, consider this. Lets suppose DX2 has a skill system to MW, where the more you use a skill the higher it gets. Now where exactly would you increase said skills? You could increase weapon usage the more you get into firefights, but the game is about stealth. You could lockpick several times in a row, but after you lockpick the lock you need, whats the point in locking and unlocking it, other than to waste time? You could increase your swimming, but the game won't have more than 20% swimming in it (and im being generous). And then what would be the point in increasing skills in such a cheap way as repeated use? The game is about your personal skill, and stealth, not maximizing skills and killing everything.

You see, MW's system works in its own world, which is a large, seemingly nigh-endless world full of possibilites. DX2 is a shooter, which, despite being big, will still have objectives, and will still limit your freedom. Its mainly objective based, and its focused, not expandible like MW. Again, MW's system wouldn't work.


2. What kind of RPG is only about 20 hours?! I am thinking more about 35-40+ of hours IMO.

Thats because DX2 isn't an RPG per se, its an FPS with stealth focus, while having some RPG elements. If it was a full-fledged RPG it'd obviously take longer.


3. Now whats up with this ammo thing? They MUST change this. They should make the pistol the same caliber as the rifle if they must take that route. And this time please make the weapon mods show up on the weapon!

I think it was NoNicknameForMe who said it, that energy-based ammo could fit the idea that Ion Storm has. I would prefer to have regular ammo types, but if the new idea is well implemented, i don't see a problem there.


4. I think this sudden change in the HUD is a bad mistake. I like the first one where there was blue octagons and the items inside. I hate this cyrcle like HUD its too ugly but the idea of it around the players eye is good.

Lets see how it turns out. For now, i see it as a good idea which needs more testing.

Lawnboy360
2nd Jul 2003, 12:51
Morrowind's skill system is quite stupid. I read in a magazine a strategy guide written by the developers:

"Sneak: Find a solitary guy who never turns around. Then stand behind him and stack a dozen Krugerands on the Sneak button. Go take a shower, eat, read the paper. Return to a more-Sneaky hero."

Now that's what I call role-playing!

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 19:35
!?!?THERE NOT GOING TO USE THE SAME TECHNOLOGY AS MORROWWIND BUT THE SAME CONCEPT OF THE SKILL SYSTEM!:mad:

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 19:59
Originally posted by Trollslayer


No, that would actually imbalance it. Morrowind's system would not work on DX2, simply because Morrowind's system is easily abusable. I can just stand still and let low level enemies hit me to increase my armour skill. I can get on top of a roof and shoot arrows at guars, who, due to their high resistance, will allow me to increase my Marksman skill like there's no tomorrow. No, just no. Just because one system works in one game that doesn't mean it's going to work in every other game.
[/B]
after all this is a "sim"/rpg/fps. I dont know about you but when i do something again and again i get better at it. And so i think for a game being a sim/rpg/fps this is perfect for it. Of course they wont use the same technology as morrowwind but the same concept. So im sure ion storm would get ride of these 'bugs' as much as possible.

Big Ragu
2nd Jul 2003, 20:03
I loved MW's skill system, but I'm not sure how it would be possible to even use that concept and bypass those "bugs".

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 20:07
better programing:rolleyes:

Trollslayer
2nd Jul 2003, 20:38
Originally posted by operative x
after all this is a "sim"/rpg/fps. I dont know about you but when i do something again and again i get better at it. And so i think for a game being a sim/rpg/fps this is perfect for it. Of course they wont use the same technology as morrowwind but the same concept. So im sure ion storm would get ride of these 'bugs' as much as possible.

A "sim"? I don't know what you see in it to claim it simulates something :confused:

I also didn't said DX2 would use the same technology as MW :confused: x2

And its your choice to want the same type of skill system or not. Im simply stating my personal view on why its inclusion in DX2 would break the game. I don't particularly like munchkin-like systems in games where i need to think before i shoot, so i don't personally see a need to improve my skills in a game where i won't need it to increase from 0 to 100. Again, i don't see a need in increasing in a skill each time i use it in all the games i play. And i don't see a need for it to exist in DX2; i hardly see the point in sitting smack in water, floating for 30 minutes just to boost a skill; thats as unrealistic as it gets.

Lawnboy360
2nd Jul 2003, 20:48
There's a game that kinda looks like Morrowind (huge world, freedom) in a modern setting, STALKER. The developers say it's an action/rpg even though there's no skills or levels. Their argument is that it isn't needed because in a first person game, the player actually gets better at using the weapon, so there's no need to "artificially" increase his skill... makes sense to me.

Visually it looks very good : http://www.stalker-game.com/download/gallery/screenshots/sb_xray_35.jpg

Edit : link to screenshot didn't work, so I'll settle for a less impressive one ;)

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 20:52
A "sim"? I don't know what you see in it to claim it simulates something
well if you read alot of interviews about Warren Spector(the creator of DX) You would know he tried to make it a sim and rpg as possible.:rolleyes:

Big Ragu
2nd Jul 2003, 20:55
Originally posted by operative x
better programing:rolleyes:

How!? How would you have a skill system were you use use a skill a lot to get better, but not allow players to cheat and use a skill like jump in water, put something on the keys and walk away for an hour, come back and have a human dolphin.:rolleyes:

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 21:10
well for one like i said
better programing they could make it were to improve swiming skills you must actually be SWIMING! and DIVING! in the water and that will SLOWLY increase a swiming skills. And by doing nothing your skill will not increase.:rolleyes:

Good point Lawnboy360 i guese they could increase your weapon by like in the first game when you tried to aim, the croserhair was far apart and it slowly came closer and allowed you to shoot more acuratly.(btw i cant WAIT FOR STALKER THAT GAME IS GOING TO BE GREAT)

Big Ragu
2nd Jul 2003, 21:25
Originally posted by operative x
well for one like i said they could make it were to improve swiming skills you must actually be SWIMING! and DIVING! in the water and that will SLOWLY increase a swiming skills. And by doing nothing your skill will not increase.:rolleyes:



:rolleyes: Oh no, I have to put something on my forward key as well, I don't know what I'll do.

Trollslayer
2nd Jul 2003, 21:29
Originally posted by operative x
well if you read alot of interviews about Warren Spector(the creator of DX) You would know he tried to make it a sim and rpg as possible.:rolleyes:

I've read a lot of interviews, thank you very much. But you seem to be confusing it a bit, old chap. The simulations Warren refers to, you're mentioning them as if it was partway game genre, which is wrong. What Warren's trying to bring to the project are various types of simulations of reality - physics, lighting and shadows, sound effects and AI. He's trying to simulate reality in some aspects, not make the game a "sim", as you implied. Its not a "sim"/fps/rpg, its just an fps/rpg, at best. That "sim" tag there would imply you'd have a Sim City-type of control over the game on some points, which you don't. Adding "sim" to the game' category is wrong.

So there's a difference between a game that simulates things which exist in real life and gives you control over said simulation, and a game that has simulated aspects found in real life, yes? :rolleyes:

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 21:43
Originally posted by Big Ragu
:rolleyes: Oh no, I have to put something on my forward key as well, I don't know what I'll do. well hey if i did not know how to swim and i started to move across the water i would say id be improving my swiming skills lol:)

and to trollslayer sorry if i have offended you i gues you didnt read that article i read.
So there's a difference between a game that simulates things which exist in real life and gives you control over said simulation so if this is true why did he even put the skills then. Doesnt that 'simulate' reality a little? And im really sure he did say it was partly sim.
Just found something you might wanna look at that Bill Money said(the producer)
Bill – We all love GTA3. The emergent game play and the non-linear sandbox mode is very close to what we try to create with a DX game. We are always hoping that other game makers will adopt the immersive sim game design principals found DX (which were first established in games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Thief).
SEE! even the producer admits its sim'ish.
Web page (http://www.deusex-machina.com/dxps2/interviews/interview1.asp)

Trollslayer
2nd Jul 2003, 22:29
Originally posted by operative x
and to trollslayer sorry if i have offended you i gues you didnt read that article i read.

Why would you have offended me? :confused:


so if this is true why did he even put the skills then. Doesnt that 'simulate' reality a little? And im really sure he did say it was partly sim.

*sigh* Ok, once again.

When you said it was "sim"/fps/rpg, you were implying it was a sort of Sim City/Unreal/Ultima type of game. If you tag a word in a game's genre (example: RPG-FPS), you're stating it has elements reminescent of both types of games; in this case, you're stating it has a simulator-type element to it, which it doesn't.

Second, the point you're failing to understand is this. The game simulates real life things (which i've already stated in my other post), but doesn't give you control over them. It simulates real life physics, real lighting, etc., in the same way other games simulate realistic elements with things like realistic weapon models, texture decals, particle effects, t&l effects, sound channels, specular highlighting, skeletal animation, etc..

So when he said it has a simulation of one or more factors, its a simulation of realistic factors to improve gameplay; its not the same as making the game part Unreal, part Ultima and part Microsoft Flight Simulator, because it doesn't allow you to control any of those simulation elements. The simulation of realistic factors is only there to immerse you in the gameworld, nothing else. So no, the producer doesn't agree with you :p You just misunderstood him.

Are we there yet?

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 22:48
he is not talking about simulating atmoshpere like enviroments. He is talking about gamplay. :rolleyes: Like option to improve skills, and pick your own path through the game. He hopes other developers will start to give their players freedom like this.:rolleyes:

Trollslayer
2nd Jul 2003, 22:52
I give up, you're beyond help. If you still blurt out inconsequential things like that even after its explained, i'm not going to keep repeating myself.

operative x
2nd Jul 2003, 22:58
I give up, you're beyond help. If you still blurt out inconsequential things like that even after its explained, i'm not going to keep repeating myself.
lol you sound like my mom ahhaha
i hope theres no hard feelings

Big Ragu
3rd Jul 2003, 00:37
Operative X, do you think Morrowind is a sim?

operative x
3rd Jul 2003, 00:46
no!? im sick of talking;/shhhh...

Lawnboy360
3rd Jul 2003, 00:53
operative x,

could you please take a few seconds to check spelling/ponctuation/capital letters before posting?

"its kinda anoying"...

operative x
3rd Jul 2003, 01:06
!?
take a few seconds to check spelling/ponctuation/capital letters before posting? Guess you forgot *spelling*. It is spelled *punctuation*. lol Sorry if i do but i type fast and sometimes don't notice my mistakes.

Lawnboy360
3rd Jul 2003, 01:10
English isn't my mother tongue; punctuation isn't a very common word and I'm used to spell it "ponctuation".

Big Ragu
3rd Jul 2003, 01:23
Originally posted by operative x
he is not talking about simulating atmoshpere like enviroments. He is talking about gamplay. :rolleyes: Like option to improve skills, and pick your own path through the game. He hopes other developers will start to give their players freedom like this.:rolleyes:

This is what you said a simulation is, and you said that Morrowind wasn't a simulation. Morrowind has a prominent skill system and there isn't a game with more freedom to pick your own path through the game!

That is the biggest contradiction I've seen in a while. Alright, I'll lay off now.

operative x
3rd Jul 2003, 02:06
errrr... Guess i must go a little more detail. Okay what i meant to say but was to tired to explain it was the game does have SOME gamplay elements that are like sims but its mostly a fantasy/adventure OK! pleaze get off my case already.

Big Ragu
3rd Jul 2003, 02:43
I said I was.:)

Trollslayer
3rd Jul 2003, 14:34
:: winces ::

JeffDenton
4th Jul 2003, 01:25
It is certainly a shame that the skills system is gone. It states that this is an FPS with RPG features. Where are these features? Not being able to develop a character that you are playing as is not RPG-like. If they did anything with such a system it would be to add MORE skills to make characters as diverse and unique as possible. That was one of the reasons I played the game. I liked the RPG elements mixed almost flawlessly with the FPS elements. It was like a gamer's dream! Now they're trying to turn a once-honorable FPS/RPG into a gamer's nightmare. For shame....:(

Bio Denton
4th Jul 2003, 01:28
Originally posted by TheDerf
Well of course Half Life is gonna r*pe Deus Ex in action and copies sold, but if Ion Storm would just stick with what they have over Half Life ("innovation" pretty much sums it up) instead of fighting Sierra at their own mastery and therefore appealing to a stupider audience, then I believe the Deus Ex series will become just as popular as any other game.


lol *applaudes*

Lawnboy360
4th Jul 2003, 01:29
Not being able to develop a character that you are playing as is not RPG-like.

The bio-mods you choose still make your character unique.

JeffDenton
4th Jul 2003, 01:42
Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention. I too was at E3 and played Deus Ex 2: IW. I got only a small time at the keyboard, but I found it to be quite good, but a little disappointing. I pretty much agree with what Belares said. The E-mail and news gave you a little depth, but I gave my two cents on the ammo issue. The men at the booth told me that they had many comments on that factor, and that they were still considering changing that. I sure hope they do...

Trollslayer
12th Jul 2003, 12:17
Originally posted by JeffDenton
It states that this is an FPS with RPG features. Where are these features? Not being able to develop a character that you are playing as is not RPG-like. If they did anything with such a system it would be to add MORE skills to make characters as diverse and unique as possible. That was one of the reasons I played the game. I liked the RPG elements mixed almost flawlessly with the FPS elements. It was like a gamer's dream! Now they're trying to turn a once-honorable FPS/RPG into a gamer's nightmare. For shame....:(

Then again, you don't get to develop JC in all the ways you want... coupled with the fact that just being able to tinker with skills and install upgrades made it seem halfway between an RPG and halfway between Zelda. Its only RPG aspects are seen in dialogue/mission structure and in that customization.

Hence while its true that not being able to customize/develop the character you are playing as you want makes it less of an RPG, its also true that only being able to customize some (read: not all) aspects of the character doesn't make it more of an RPG.

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 04:11
Originally posted by Captain_Simian
First of all, the feasability of creating a second game (for people who have a brain, or in your case want to see the parts of someone's brain splattered on a wall) is nil regardless of the company. Not even Lucasarts would do that.But that's off the main point of this.

Secondly: at least you have one thing right, Infogrames is the worst of all publishing companies (except maybe microsoft since the xbox came into being)

Thridly: Your example is along a different line to what i was suggesting. I am not suggesting they change any part of the storyline, or any part of the way the computer reacts to you, or the number of AIs present. What I AM suggesting is that there be a "simple" mode and an "advanced" mode. In simple mode you are not bothered by options related to tweaking your character, allowing those people to get on with the action. However for those of us out there who want more control of the character's development we can be given the extra info and options - whether through a skills system or other method.

This is an approach that has long been a part of racing games.

After all:
"The problem is choice," or lack thereof.

would be nice, but i can be fairly sure it would never happen. It would cost too much, and take too long. The team would essentially have to design two considerably different interfaces and essentially have two games in one almost. As i said, no doubt it would be nice, but jsut not financially viable. It would take twice as long, and thus cost twice as much (employee wages, etc) to do, and unless the game retailed at double the normal RRP there would be no real chance of making profit probably. To add to this, it would take so long that the game would take another year to develop, by which time it would be technically inferior and the engines would have to be redesigned, and thus the cycle goes on. Good example : duke nukem forever. The work took so long that the game would have been obsolete graphically, so they had to strat from scratch with the unreal engine and dump the quake 2 engine. Wouldnt surprise me if they are into the quake 3 or unreal 2 engine atm and starting from scratch again..

I think the point is clear. If a game was successful and acclaimed, then the formula it used was great. If people loved it so much, then they will look forward to the sequel (assuming that it is giogn to be similar inexecution). When they see that it isnt, a large percentage or these fans will be turned off immediately, tag the game as a 'cheap cash in' and be turned off the series forever. Games like tomb raider and AvP are good examples. AvP 2 was very similar to the first in most ways, and this is what fans wanted, so it sold. Same with every tomb raider sequel (nothing but graphical upgrades there). Again, quake and unreal series and sports games have that apply also. New versiosn sell, because they are improvemtns of the past versions, without changing the general principle. Personally, i'm not a great fan of tomb raider of AvP myself, so none of these sequels appealed to me, but for the fans "move of the same with better graphics adn better weapons/AI" is all they wanted.

Deus ex was a very original game. It had an excelent interface, it required thinking, and was hugely replayable. The story was excellent, was immersive, and the story as well as the game was original and not a great deal like anythign else at the time. n These were the factors that sold it. If you have money to buy 2 games, and there are two traditional FPS's that are both essentially "shoot everythign that moves" games, then you will likely buy one, and soemthign else (unless you are a die hard FPS fan). This is because the two games are so similar in execution that its like buying the samegame twice. If you had 2 FPS's, one beign half life the other beign deus ex, althought they are both FPS games, the large differentiation between them makes them quite different games, so you wont midn forkign out dough for both games.

Personally, the reason i looked forward to deus ex 2 was because i loved deus ex so much. I loved the uniqueness, the story, the replayability, the interface, the characters, the freedom, etc. Negatives were few and far between. I didnt liek the weapons all that much (because of their appearance and sound effects mainly), the graphics could have been abit better, and the lack of choice in plot at a couple of major points was a dissapointment. Aside from these fairly smal things i loved the game. If the guys want deus ex 2 to be a success, all they have to do id look on some forums like this one, see what things fans of the original DIDNT like, (in general, not what each poerson didnt like) and try to work on those aspects in the sequel.

A good way would be to take note of say, the 10 comon complaints, then open a poll on the site

"which factor did you most dislike about deus ex?"

Then based on the number of votes, make each factor a preference from highest to lowest.

Then study what fans LIKED the most, and make another poll
"what factor did you like most about deus ex?"

Then again preference those things from highest to lowest, and ensure that they DONT change.

Make the usual enhancements to technological areas (sound, graphics, etc) implement these aforementioned factors, and you will have a sequel taht gamers will love. If you take a look at all the past sequels that have been effective you will see a pattern. They all improve on the things that were bad in the original, while keeping the things that were good. A good example being NOLF2.

Personally, I don't know if deus ex 2 will be a worthy sequel. I pray it is, because i NEED to hear the rest of that story! It may be a great game with refreshign changes that work, or it may be a 'dumbed down' dissapointment with all the great features of the original removed or softened. Truth is, until we play it we will not really know if we like it or not, so lets just pray it comes out good.

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 04:29
Originally posted by Leo
unreal things:

when you pick up a dead body that has a pool of blood under it the blood dissapears somewhere, no, I do not like it, and better, when ya throw the body new blood appears.

how can all weapons have the same ammo? how can u turn a bullet into a shotgun shell, into a rocket [that explodes :) ] , into a flamethrower's cannister [seriously, not the napalm cannister! NO WAY]

I had this many times: when lots of people run in a panic everywhere [i do not remember, maybe it was Hong Kong] the terrorists recognize my foot sound, like, they must be smart or they are cyborgs? this is unreal, if JC walks or runs close to a terrorist he recognizes you and iimediately shoots, like, even if the terrorist does not see you .. he just already knows somehow where you are and finds you in some seconds ... unreal ...

will there be a way to uninstall augs ... this would be very useful

When a dead corpse contains omething I already have in my inventory it just dissapears from the corpse, so I cannot pick the item later .. this was so, I rescued Gunther, I chose to give him my pistol, to my surprise, I lost my upgraded pistol and I had to kill a terrorist just to get a pistol. Of course, the terrorist shot me at first attempt .. so I started to wonder, where all the pistols dissapeared if JC took only the ammunition

one more weird thing, after you finish the Liberty island, whan you first get to Battery park, there is a guy with a flamethrower undergroung the Castle Clinton, when I killed him, to my surprise the flamethrower contained only one unit of ammo, man, i tried it some other way .. in one attempt I killed him immediately, second, I shot at him, he charged at me, I thought what the hell, he will shoot out the one unit of ammo fast and then will try to run away, mmmm, he cooked me, real good ... I do not like unrealism especially in such a great game as DX

one more thing before i run out of ideas for now ... bad guys can see you a mile away ... the level when you had to stop the missile from launch [one of the last levels] just at the beginning, a guy with a sniper rifle ... man, he did not use his scope to find me .. usual humans are acctually better than upgraded Dentons [everything is good until some unreal features are included in appropriate difficulty levels. If I select Easy at first go then it should be EASY - no superhuman hearing, no mile-away spotting]

Some good opints.

About the uninstallign augs. I guess thats a personal preference thing, but I think i prefer not to have that ability. In a way it takes the suspense and importance out of decision making. A big part was deciding which aug to choose, because you knew you couldnt change your midn later, so the choice was of great important, and it made you feel more 'in the game' IMO. This would also reduce replayability, because the first time around if you foudn enough aug canisters you could play through using every aug at some point. Part of the fun wsas u used one setup, then the next time you play you use somethign different. It kinda gave the reason to replay the game.

Of course as i said thse are more personal preferences. Its's abit like like that argument about whether you should be able to save games mid-game or not. SHould it be realistic and challenging or more easy and user freindly?Sometimes if it is too easy, the game gets boring and replayability suffers, while too much challenge/difficulty can get aggrivating if you try somethign 20 times to pass it and fali every time (and jsut wan tto turn oit off and throw it). All comes down to preference. Optimally, somewhere in betwen is good. Simple enough to make you BELIEVE you can pass the stage/level/part, but challenging enough to keep you going.

Onto the corpses. What i found was that if the corpses had items that you already had (or couldnt pick up any more of) then it would display the message "you already have this" or "you cant pick up any more of this ammo type" or something. If yo fire a few shots then reload, it will let you pick it up again. Although it will not let you pick up the body while it has items on it.

When you give gunther the pistol, you lose your upgraded pistol because thats what you chose to do. You have the option of not giving him a weapon. If you give him one usually he wil take your pistol. If your pistol is upgraded or you have no other decent wepaons, then its best to tell him to wait and stay put and not give him the weapon.

As for the enemies ability to see from long distance, this is the case at points in the game. I dont think it is all that unrealistic though. Usually if you are decently hidden they wont see you even if you are relatively nearby (and dont move). If you are in a lit area and moving (or een not movign at times) then they will tend to see you, and i think this is fair enough. Although it is an option that i guess should be adjustable based on difficulty settings, ill agree there.

Otherwise, soem valid points there. Of course, all games have their faults, and possibly these are the areas that the developers should be looking at working on rather then changing the parts that people actually enjoyed.

Montial
13th Jul 2003, 04:34
Originally posted by TheDerf
I want to point out the poor physics of this game, especially in "dealing" with people. Every person who can be killed dies in one of three ways: falling forward, falling backward, or blowing up. It's of course unrealistic how 1/3 deaths are the same thing. I think that Ion Storm should take some of the people off of the Hitman crew to do a lot of the physics, because when you kill someone in Hitman, they never fall the same way. And when I get done chopping someone up with my sword or shooting someone with my sawed-off, I expect to see some marks.

They are using a rag-doll system. People shot at the top of stairs will roll down them and end up in a heap at the bottom. Play UT2003 and watch the people in their death animations. There is no two the same because they are not preset animations. You'll see what I mean.

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 04:36
Originally posted by TimeBeast
Starting off with the proposed biomods system, opposed to skills, I like it. Firstly, I felt that the inventory screens and notes were a bit intrusive to the game. They very much broke away from the immersion factor. I like the idea of the new HUD that is burnt into you eye, and hope it is implemented well. Back to biomods, I agree with the people who think the skills system is flawed. In the scope of a game, especially ones that tell a story like DX, the length of the game doesn't span years of gradual training, but a sequence of events that lasts a month at the most. Skill's are a method of advancement, but not the most realistic. Firstly, you don't learn how to fire a pistol by 'exploration bonuses'.

I'm just saying that it seems like they're aiming for something that is more immersive, doesn't break away from the feel that your in the world, whilst keeping the idea of progression. You start off well training but ill equipped. A craftsman is as good as his tools, and hence progression of the character in the game is the improvement of your tools.

Sliding slightly laterally, I'm curious how the new inventory system will work. Once again, I'm hoping it will inspire more realism. In the first game JC could keep a hell of a lot of items in that jacket of his. Modern games are tending towards a more halo-esque approach with slots that only accept certain weapons. It allows you to both think tactically while adjusting your armoury to your play style. Mr. UT takes the fully automatic assault rifle, whilst the snake wannabe takes a semi-auto silenced SMG.

The issue of ammo all beig the same could work. I can see how it might be implemented as part of the story. I can see that it might work as a game mechanic. However, I think it detracts from the elements of realism to the game. Also, I want to be able to charge at a bot, my shotgun roaring with sabot rounds until *click*, I'm out. And 12 guage pellets do jack. And the bot has pointed all it's guns at me...

However, despite all these issues, I think DX:IW still has a lot of potential in storyline, depth, and flexibility. Deus Ex suceeded for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it had a kickass storyline with voice acting that exceeds a lot of games on the market. Then there was the depth- you could stick to mission objectives only, ignoring any sub-plots or quests or extra information to flesh out the game. Or you could hack people's emails, see what they thought of you and other people. See their secret agenda's and desires. Make them more human believable characters. One of my favourite moments in DX is where you walk in on Simmons complaining about his biolectrics to Jaime Reyes. It just makes both of them seem that much more believable.

Depth... partially tied in with the previous points. the datacubes scattered around meant that if you took the effort you didn't need multitools or lockpicks or high level hack for most situatuions. Again, the fleshing out of the story line and it's characters was good. I liked the involvment with some of the more minor characters (Sandra and her father, the chicks trying to get into the dance club). Some of it had no reward except the warm fuzzy feeling of helping someone.

This brings me to flexibility. The issue with the Rentons is complex. Firstly, you can run into Sandra in the street or be asked to look for her by her father. At that point, you can just let take care of herself, lend a hand by scaring the pimp off, or putting a bullet in his head (whether you talk him into a fight or just draw and down him without a word). After that, you have to deal with Jojo. You can choose to let things go down... Jojo kills her dad. You can choose to let her Dad exercise some power by lending him your pistol and taking Jojo out, but Sandra doesn't like that. Another option is to not empower the citizen but deal with Jojo when he becomes trouble. This results in Sandra sticking with her father. I'm sure there's other possibilities I've missed (I never tried killing Sandra before the business with Jojo goes down).

It's little things- a lot of attention to detail and effort (they wrote a whole book just for snippets to appear in game) that made it GOTY. I have full faith that Deus Ex : IW will suceed as DX did.

For those of you who didn't like guards hearing you in noisy, crowded marketplaces, or just bacuse you walked funny, DX:IW's new sound system should make things a lot more realistic and less frustrating.

It's true that you dont learn how to fire a reapon by 'eploration bonuses' but you do from experience. That is just in a way i think of giving them. Maybe a self used skill system could be put in. I.e the more you use something the more your skills improve with it. If you pick lots of locks and use the prod most of the time, and rarely go out gunsblazing, then you lockpicking and melee skills could improve, and wepaon skills decrease, etc. They could all start out at an average level, and go up or down based on how often you use a aprticular skill. What do yo think ? Also if you creep around and hide alot your stealth skill ould go up, if you runaround alot or swim alot you speed or swimming skiils could increase respectively. They would have to be scaled, because you may fire 100 rounds from an assault rifle in 2 minutes, but neer use more then 5 lockpicks in two minutes probably. Likewise, you wont use 30 gep rockets in two minutes. So the rate of increase could be scaled based on the weapon itself also. One possiblility would be to make some basic functions such as pistol skills (any agent can fire a pistol relatively effectively) set so they cannot fall below average, but can increase out to expert.

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 04:45
Originally posted by NoNicknameForMe
Lets face it, skills only artificialy limited you, they did nothing to help you in any way that a biomod couldn't do. They were silly and quite stupid. Why can I use a rifle better because I explored a certian area? With no skills the player's skill is what matters, there are PLENTY of games I play where I start off wasting clips on guys, and by the end i'm getting constant headshots. Lockpicking, multitools need skill to use though, right? No. They are automatic tools and in DX:IW they are one tool a biomod that lets you interface with them or something, might make sense, but skills for automatic tools, wtf? There is not one skill in DX that cannot be removed or replaced with an equlivalent mod. One system for advancement with all the previous systems benefits and none of the weaknesses thats also easier to balence, and you tards do nothing but *****. What they are doing to DX:IW is cutting out all the fat and leaving you with a nice lean tasty easy to digest meal. Sure everyone likes some fat, but I like steak alot more than fat, and if I have to trade no fat for much more steak, so be it.

For you metaphorically challenged, they cut out the over complicated hassle and made all the good parts more prominent. While inventory management and skill distribution can be very fun i'd rather have more DX with less Baulders Gate, Lionheart and Fallout 3 will provide enough stats for me.

Please refrain from constantly insulting people by calling them things liek "*****es" jsut because they don't think the same way you do. This is a public forum, every person has the right to their own opinion and everyone has different taste. If a person prefers skills, the so be it. No reason why they can't, and no reason why that shoudl make them wrong and you right. Try to accept opinions. If you don't agree then say "i don't agree, I think ...." rather then "stop complaining and being a b1tch" or somethign of the like. You may find that if yo try to respect others you will generally get more respect in return.

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 04:49
Originally posted by TheDerf
That's interesting how you chose the 5.7 round, but yeah, any bullet can be used in a handgun, sub-machine gun, rifle, or machine gun, provided that the gun was designed to use it. Developers of shooting games like to mix up the types of ammo some guns use to make you scramble around looking for rounds for your forray of weapons, and I prefer Deus Ex kept it that way.

Certain guns use certain bullets that are useful for certain things. I don't want to shoot rifle rounds at a target at close range. I don't want to try to hit a target at long range with a round meant for a handgun.

The only way I can be happy with this "same ammo for all guns" deal is if there were so little ammunition in the game to pick up, that you would want to conserve your rounds for situations when you need them most, rather than some terrorist taking a coffee break in central park.

If this same ammo thing is going for shotguns as well, I have a theory of how Ion Storm is going to explain it. When the bullet is fired, a sort of fiber or laser "net" is heated up inside the barrel, cutting the bullet as it exits the muzzle, but that is more far-fetched than my knife idea.:(

Yes, a 30.06 round in some freak pistol would have the same range as if it were fired in a rifle. The weapon has nothing to do with how far it goes.

Not too sure about this, but wouldnt issues such as the length of the barrel, the propulsion system, weight of the barrel, etc all have affects on the accuracy, range and recoil of a weapon?

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 05:03
Originally posted by Trollslayer


No, that would actually imbalance it. Morrowind's system would not work on DX2, simply because Morrowind's system is easily abusable. I can just stand still and let low level enemies hit me to increase my armour skill. I can get on top of a roof and shoot arrows at guars, who, due to their high resistance, will allow me to increase my Marksman skill like there's no tomorrow. No, just no. Just because one system works in one game that doesn't mean it's going to work in every other game.

For one example, consider this. Lets suppose DX2 has a skill system to MW, where the more you use a skill the higher it gets. Now where exactly would you increase said skills? You could increase weapon usage the more you get into firefights, but the game is about stealth. You could lockpick several times in a row, but after you lockpick the lock you need, whats the point in locking and unlocking it, other than to waste time? You could increase your swimming, but the game won't have more than 20% swimming in it (and im being generous). And then what would be the point in increasing skills in such a cheap way as repeated use? The game is about your personal skill, and stealth, not maximizing skills and killing everything.

You see, MW's system works in its own world, which is a large, seemingly nigh-endless world full of possibilites. DX2 is a shooter, which, despite being big, will still have objectives, and will still limit your freedom. Its mainly objective based, and its focused, not expandible like MW. Again, MW's system wouldn't work.



Thats because DX2 isn't an RPG per se, its an FPS with stealth focus, while having some RPG elements. If it was a full-fledged RPG it'd obviously take longer.



I think it was NoNicknameForMe who said it, that energy-based ammo could fit the idea that Ion Storm has. I would prefer to have regular ammo types, but if the new idea is well implemented, i don't see a problem there.



Lets see how it turns out. For now, i see it as a good idea which needs more testing.

Guess my last post was abit late.. got beaten to it :) lol

The skills system i agree might work. True, you could sit there firign your pistol at a wall, and your skill would improve, but you would be wasting valuable ammo, so that would even it out. Also, aiming a gun at a wall and firing i real life endlessly would probbably improve your pistol skills, as youd get btter and better at controllign recoil, hitting the right spot onthe wall, etc. Maybe you could have a training session or tutorial before the game in which you practice using the items and skills to get yourself up to average on every skill, before you start the game (or alternatively jsut skip it and start on average skills). Lockpics would work that way also, in that better skill could :
1) reduce the amount needed (like in deus ex) or
2) reduce the amount of time it takes to pick a lock

If you were trying to pick a lock with enemy patrols comign aroudn the corner, or if you had to try to disable a cturning camera before it turns your way, then using skiils to determine the tiem taken to disable cameras / pick locks could play a big part. THis way players skilled in lockpicking and electronics would be able to play a covert type game, avoiding firefights by bypassing security and gettign through locked doors without engaging enemies. Guys with wepaon skills could maybe shoot the enemies instead and find a key (or code) for the door, while runnign the risk of being detected by camera and raising teh alarm, which in tern brigns more enemies. This way your style of play will affect yoru skills which in tern will affect your style of play later in the game, thus creating a type of cycle, and making you feel more like you have a real personality in the game Alternatively, you coudl be a "jack of all trades but master of none" type player, and be average at al skills, but have no real major skilled area. This would allow you to adjust more to the situation, and change tactics occasionally, but you would be less skille din specific areas. Personally i think this would be a nice way to go in the game.

When it comes to armour class i dont think that should change based on skill, but maybe if you use heavy armour in the game alot then your ability to move quietly/quickly with heavy armour can improve the more you use it.

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 05:07
Originally posted by Trollslayer
A "sim"? I don't know what you see in it to claim it simulates something :confused:

I also didn't said DX2 would use the same technology as MW :confused: x2

And its your choice to want the same type of skill system or not. Im simply stating my personal view on why its inclusion in DX2 would break the game. I don't particularly like munchkin-like systems in games where i need to think before i shoot, so i don't personally see a need to improve my skills in a game where i won't need it to increase from 0 to 100. Again, i don't see a need in increasing in a skill each time i use it in all the games i play. And i don't see a need for it to exist in DX2; i hardly see the point in sitting smack in water, floating for 30 minutes just to boost a skill; thats as unrealistic as it gets.

yep, but youd be a great floter after it, and going under water for a few mins at a time for 30 mins would probably improve your ability to hold your breath underwater. And swimming in a direction or even in circles for 30 mins woudld improve your swimming (if only by a bit) :)

crimson_stallion
13th Jul 2003, 05:53
Originally posted by operative x
errrr... Guess i must go a little more detail. Okay what i meant to say but was to tired to explain it was the game does have SOME gamplay elements that are like sims but its mostly a fantasy/adventure OK! pleaze get off my case already.

I think wat op-x meant was that the game is intended to be a realistic game. I.e. somewhat of a simulation of what the real world may be like in 500 years time or however long. Chances are that (being on earth) the physics and the physical composition of people will not change all that much.

As such I think he is trying to point out that in real life, people do improve at things the more they work at them (generally) and so if the makers are going to work hard to make the game realistic in terms of physics, graphics, sound effects, etc, then why not make the nature of people more realistic as well? To get a person better at things, you get them to work at it more frequently, and to put in more effort. Although some people are naturally better (or worse) at certain things, practice generally does improve, hence the "skills" system makes more sense.

On the contrary, you could say that the dentons arent all human, and their bodies are largely electronic. As we all know, if you run games with powerful graphics on an old system non stop, the system will not get any better and handling them, and if anything will drain more resources, overheat and crash. To get better performance out of something electronic, you upgrade the components. Hence, here the "biomod" system makes more sense.

In the end, dentons are part human, part machine/electronic, and hence really either approach could be taken and it would still work and make sense. The relevance will generally be decided based upon whether the individual considers dentons humans with mechanical parts, or computers with human parts. Personally, I like the skills system, because I myself am human, thus I am more immersed, and the sytem makes me feel more like i AM denton. Wheras the biomods system has you thinkign of denton as more of a machine, and as I am not a machine, i dont relate as much. Also, the game can be played with the character being more humane (i.e. caring about people, having a personality) or more machine like (for all intents and purposes, and mechanical, stone cold killing machine)

What I would love would be to have the choice of a more human denton using skills or a more mechanic denton using biomods, but again this would be unrealistic, waste development time (and money) and would not happen. I had no trouble being immersed into deus ex when my character was getting implanted, computer enhanced muscles, or retinas (running speed, targeting infomation, etc) from augs, so I guess I can't see why biomods would be a problem. In fact I heard on a TV show that development is already being done on designing a bio-implant to help blind people see. It basically is a chip with a camera that is wired into your brain and lets you see what the camera sees kinda.. not sure if its operational yet, but i hear it is being worked on and tested. You could probably consider this a bio-mod, and as such they dont look all taht far fetched to me. \

When i heard the skills system was being removed, i was heartbroken, but if the biomod system can work in a similar way (maybe even serving to feel more realistic) then it will not bother me at all.Implementation, in the end, is what counts. No matter how stupid or odd an idea is, if it is implemented in a way that suits the game (almost always possible) then it will be fine.

Likewise with the inventory. I liked the old one, and the loss sounds bad, but if the new one works, and is easy and quick to use, without making the user feel cheated, then whos to complain?

Everyone likes different things, and thus it is impossible to design a game that EVERYONE likes. The only thing that i really dont like is the ammo sharing thing. What i don't know is, has anyone actually specified how much sharing there will be with ammo? I read that the multitools and lockpicks will be combined in a single item, and personally i like this. The locks in DE were said to be electronic anyway (e.g nano key ring for nano locks), so no reason why a tool that can disable cameras couldnt also disable locks. One less item to have to look for, collect, and make space in inventory for. If all ammunition is shared, then that would IMO be a bad think most likely. I find it hard to blend them together without scumming things up. However, ion storm i'm sure have figured this themselves, and ti is quite obvious taht a shot gun and a rocket launcher can not physically use teh saem ammo realistically, so i doubt they would make such a silly system. No doubt they will either introduce some type of adjustable nano-ammo (kinda got a good ring to it aye :P) or else sharing will be moderate. for example, pistols, submachine guns might share 9mm ammo, assult rifles and sniper rifles might use 7.62 mm rounds, prods and plasma weapons might use electrical cells or batteries, crossbows and harpoon guns might use darts, and you get the idea.

In deus ex no weapon shared ammo with any other (if i remeber correctly) and although this was good in a way, it also got irritating, because you had a million different types of ammo to look for, and alot of th etime you would be running around with your preferred stealth pistol for example, dispatching enemies and running low on ammo, while picking up nothing but 7.62 assault rifle rounds. Result is you would have a overloadrd assault rifle (that you dont have the skills to properly use effectively) and a dead emply stealth pistol (which has full mods and skills catered for). At least if ammo was shared moderately, as in teh examples i gave above, there would be effectively twice as much ammo for your preffered weapon, and you coudl CHOOSE whether pile that 7.62 ammo out of your assault rifle(and burn it fast), or spare it for the sniper rifle.

What I am trying to say basically, is taht until we see the game, play the game, or at least read some reviews, we will not know if the new features are good or not. Sometimes we think we wont like something beause we dont like the sort of thing usually, but when we try it we love it. I was never a RPG man, but deus ex and fallout tactics (as semi-rpg's) gave me alittle interest. I then played neverwinter nights after the rave reviews, and absolutely couldnt get enough. I'm now a converted RPG fan. You dont know unless you try. By all means, speak freely, and if you think an idea is bad say so, (after all that is the purpose of discussions and forums) but try not to entirely decide that the game will be bad before it is released. Ion storm know they had a killer on their hands with deus ex, and as worried as i have been at times about the next game, i'm slowly beginning to accept and have faith in their ideas. I belive that they can make these things work. Lets just hope :)

Trollslayer
13th Jul 2003, 11:30
Originally posted by crimson_stallion
I think wat op-x meant was that the game is intended to be a realistic game. I.e. somewhat of a simulation of what the real world may be like in 500 years time or however long. Chances are that (being on earth) the physics and the physical composition of people will not change all that much.

Thats why i said the game simulated some things, while he said it had the same type of gameplay of some sims. Notice the difference? Like i told him a sim is a game that specializes in simulating something, and in giving you control over said simulations is part of the gameplay (like space traders, flight simulators, or city management). DX2 just simulates things but doesn't give you control over them, and the simulated things are not part of the gameplay in the sense that you don't have a saying on how they go, they're there to make gameplay be more interesting, not completely revolve around it. Hence i never said it simulated some aspects (and i pointed out some of those aspects).

Thats why i pointed him to the wrong idea of calling DX2 a sim/fps/rpg. But he still called it a sim, regardless, because he doesn't seem to have understood the difference between simulated aspects and a simulator.*sigh*

Though i agree with all else you said.

I also think IS will try to rebalance that ammo aspect... from what i remember seeing on the video, i saw a Nikita-like guided missile being fired at a mech. So i doubt that entire missile would fit into a gun :) meaning the ammo will probably have to have some differences... perhaps meaning, that similar-sized weapons will share similar types of ammo? Unlikely, but much better than all of them having the same ammo.

And on the skills aspect... yup firing at your wall would make you better at using it :D But i think that it would be better to just have skills increment by use but find a way to block an increase by stationary means (ex., firing at a wall). I think there should be a way for the game to figure when is the gun being fired at someone, and take into account that coordination used + other factors (like if the target is moving, accuracy, etc), so it could give a boost at your handling. An interesting aspect to catch "munchins" would be: if you were firing against a target the game would boost your skill in weapon handling, but if you were firing against a wall the skill would go down because you were only increasing a physical adaptation to the recoil, not using the weapon properly :D

operative x
13th Jul 2003, 21:34
You guys have waaaay to much time on your hands:eek:

Fire_Power
13th Jul 2003, 22:20
Originally posted by operative x
You guys have waaaay to much time on your hands:eek:
I was just thinking the same thing.

vick1000
13th Jul 2003, 22:28
Originally posted by operative x
You guys have waaaay to much time on your hands:eek:

If you can say that,then you must have read all this crap,so
guess what?

So do you!!!:D

Trollslayer
13th Jul 2003, 22:35
Yeees, its one big happy family with lots of time on their hands!!!

operative x
14th Jul 2003, 02:52
I did'nt read it.

vick1000
14th Jul 2003, 12:27
Originally posted by operative x
I did'nt read it.

Then how,in good concience,can you make that sort of statement
Hmmmmmmm?:rolleyes:

crimson_stallion
14th Jul 2003, 13:13
Originally posted by Trollslayer
Thats why i said the game simulated some things, while he said it had the same type of gameplay of some sims. Notice the difference? Like i told him a sim is a game that specializes in simulating something, and in giving you control over said simulations is part of the gameplay (like space traders, flight simulators, or city management). DX2 just simulates things but doesn't give you control over them, and the simulated things are not part of the gameplay in the sense that you don't have a saying on how they go, they're there to make gameplay be more interesting, not completely revolve around it. Hence i never said it simulated some aspects (and i pointed out some of those aspects).

Thats why i pointed him to the wrong idea of calling DX2 a sim/fps/rpg. But he still called it a sim, regardless, because he doesn't seem to have understood the difference between simulated aspects and a simulator.*sigh*

Though i agree with all else you said.

I also think IS will try to rebalance that ammo aspect... from what i remember seeing on the video, i saw a Nikita-like guided missile being fired at a mech. So i doubt that entire missile would fit into a gun :) meaning the ammo will probably have to have some differences... perhaps meaning, that similar-sized weapons will share similar types of ammo? Unlikely, but much better than all of them having the same ammo.

And on the skills aspect... yup firing at your wall would make you better at using it :D But i think that it would be better to just have skills increment by use but find a way to block an increase by stationary means (ex., firing at a wall). I think there should be a way for the game to figure when is the gun being fired at someone, and take into account that coordination used + other factors (like if the target is moving, accuracy, etc), so it could give a boost at your handling. An interesting aspect to catch "munchins" would be: if you were firing against a target the game would boost your skill in weapon handling, but if you were firing against a wall the skill would go down because you were only increasing a physical adaptation to the recoil, not using the weapon properly :D

Like for example, measuring your firing accuracy, by recording how many of your shots hit targets, and which parts exactly they hit? For example, register head shots, chest shots, leg shots, etc, and how many combined target shots, and work out what percentage they make up out of the total shots fired? A few games have such recordign already. For example, in N64's goldeneye, after each level, you were told what percentage of shots were head shots, body shots, etc, while other cames have had 'hit percentages' displayed. That could work.

crimson_stallion
14th Jul 2003, 13:17
Hahaha yep sure do. I'm on my 1 month mid-semester holiday (uni) so im splitting my time 50/50 between going out and bludging at home. :)

Plus when i start to write a reply other related ideas often come to my head and i end up writing 5 times more then i expected. Oh well !:eek:

operative x
14th Jul 2003, 19:36
Originally posted by vick1000
Then how,in good concience,can you make that sort of statement
Hmmmmmmm?:rolleyes:
Well...uhh...maybe I decided to check out the new postes but did not bother to read them.Duhhh!

crimson_stallion
15th Jul 2003, 01:58
haha yeah I was thinking that as well. . .

vick1000
15th Jul 2003, 02:28
Originally posted by operative x
Well...uhh...maybe I decided to check out the new postes but did not bother to read them.Duhhh!

You OK?Grab a rag,the drool's about to drip on the keyboerd.
LOL:p

WSimons
18th Jul 2003, 00:12
And I don't think slappng your chest and trying to bite your ear is helping anything.

Chunga
20th Jul 2003, 11:30
I have only just joined this forum, so forgive me if what I am about to say has been said a hundred times already.

The thing thatmade DX1, IMHO, the greatest game on the PC, ever, was that you started of pretty useless, and had to work bloody hard to get enough skill points to become competent at just two or three skill. Also you had to really think about which mods you wanted and which ones you would upgrade if you were lucky enough tofind a couple of upgrade cannisters. The game allowed you to customise your character in a way few other games had even come close to, one that springs to mind is Arcanum. Because of this almost every player had a slightly different way of playing the game, and so in essence the game was a different game for every player every time they played it.

This was pure genious, and any attempt to move away from this, just so the game can be multi-platform, or will appeal to those people who thought the game was good but were not smart enought to handle all the problem solving will ultimately undermine the enjoyment of the game.

Thats just my opinion.

Chunga.

crimson_stallion
22nd Jul 2003, 14:16
Firstly, I am putting faith in Ion Storm to do this right. From the previews I have read, it seems that DE:IW has a solid future, and the new ideas can be very effective, as long as they are done well.

Secondly, I agree entirely with that last post. In Deus Ex, every decision you made counted. Youd get into convos and be tempted to say the mean thing, but would get worried that maybe the person would start shooting at you or get pissed at you and it woudl stuff things up, so you say the nice thing. You try to be nice to avoid undue trouble (after all you dotn want to waste that stack of ammo on a fight you could have avoided, you might need it later).

Then, every aug counted. You play a stealthy game, so you want run silent, but at the same time you never know when it may help to be able to jump on a box that is JUST that bit too high. So you think for several minutes about it, make a decision save your game (incase you regret it later) and choose the silent run aug.

You get skill points. Your favorite weapons are your pistol and yoru sniper rifle. You have enough points to upgrade you pistol to the final level , your sniper rifle to the final level, or your swimming skill up two levels up to third. You think "who cares about swimming" so you choose the pistol upgrade. 10 minutes later, you get to a big patch of water in a sewer you HAVE to swim through. You get through 3/4 of the way, lost al your air, and stat loosing health. You JUST get out the other side alive, and have to waste valuable medkits to heal yourself. You sit thinking "i should have upgraded the swimming".

There are so many decisions you have to make which really do count later. They may be the difference between life or death at a later stage (or near death), and you realy get that pressure on yourself to make the right choice. This makes you FEEL like you ARE JC. You are a character who is very advanced and powerful, who is basicaly an ultimate soldier or agent, but yet no matter what, you are never perfect (unless you cheat). You will always have flaws, or areas where you arent so great. So you have to look at your style of play, and thinka bou twhich areas you can most afford to be bad at. You can be a jack of all trades and a master of none, or you can be a specialist in oen area and all but useless in others. You can play the game how you want.

This is one of the biggest thigns that made deus ex what it was. This alone contributed greatly to the immersion. If you add a top rate story that really had you caring about people, lots of environmental interaction, and you have one of the most immersive games ever.

Theres the first time you throw something at one of your mates at UNATCO, or as a diversion to see the soldiers wonder off to explore. Theres he first tiem you walk past the lot of pigeons to see the flutter off in a manner that is SOO realistic. Theres the first time you step on the cat and hear it hiss at you, so for fun you step on it again (expecting another hiss) but instead you hear a meow and see that you have killed the cat..and sit feeling terrible for what you have done to the poor animal. Theres the scripted NPC conversations, such as gunthers argument with navarre about the soda machine. Theres the first time you walk in the UNATCO girls toilets, when the woman tells you shell tell on you and you sit back thinking (HAHA yeh sureeee), only to hear manderly tell you off for it later.

Deus Ex was and is quite simply one of the most complete games ever, and DE:IW has a tough task improving on it. But to be honest, IMO, it doesnt have to be better. It doestn ahve to be as good. If invisible war is even CLOSE to as good as the original, it will be good enough for me.

Bio}{azard
25th Jul 2003, 00:28
the skills were i of the things that cept the game going
now to get a password they have to make it Easyer to find the comp with the password.
i loved DX1 because it wasnt a topdown midevil RPG or a FPS that all u did was point and shoot and bcause it was soo long
u felt like u acomplished something at the end.
welp, im going to miss that


and as to makin a console set up:
if u want to play it sooo bad y dont u call dell,order a crappy but just good enough comp for it and play it,instead of whining.
y do People even use consoles?
sure its cheaper but think of all the things u can do on the PC.
end rant

Trollslayer
25th Jul 2003, 19:53
Originally posted by Bio}{azard
[quote]i loved DX1 because it wasnt a topdown midevil RPG or a FPS that all u did was point and shoot and bcause it was soo long
u felt like u acomplished something at the end.
welp, im going to miss that

How are you going to miss it if you don't even know its gone? :confused:



y do People even use consoles?
sure its cheaper but think of all the things u can do on the PC.
end rant

Because they might want have fun? Because they might want a system specially tailored for gaming instead of needing to buy new components or upgrade pc parts because new games won't run? Hell, to have fun?

PCs allow for many things, but hell if i would discard my consoles. Diiferent things for different levels of fun. Understandable, yes?

Hannibal
29th Jul 2003, 16:31
I vote "give me back the skills!", for many of the reasons that have been expressed in this thread. The comments over how skills take away from immerson and realism are addressing a problem that doesn't exist. They might be contrivances, but they are contrivances that add value to the game.

Arkyle
29th Jul 2003, 17:16
Well.....

I´m gonna throw my opinion about the matter of skills and menus.

I really enjoyed playing with the F1 menu. I like to pack my things as nice as i can, just for fun, and YES, People like ( at least, I like) to play with some nice numbers wich represent my stats, my improvement, and how i play my game cards, to get a character adapted to me and my style.

So, the skills interface of Deus Ex 1, in my opinion, Was perfect.

No need to change...

" If it isn´t broke, why mend it?"

Picasso
1st Aug 2003, 22:55
The skill system:

- Had much less basis in reality than biomods. Why should walking into a room (and getting an "exploration bonus") make me more adept with a rifle?

- Was needlessly complicated. I'm a Physics/Astronomy major, and I play games to get AWAY from math, thank you very much. Juggling 1575 points for this and 2250 points for that is just a headache.

The biomod system fixes those problems and gives you even more freedom to define your character.

Lawnboy360
1st Aug 2003, 23:01
Agreed
From PCGamer Sept 2003 - Harvey Smith wants to get away from RPG conventions (skills, stats, numbers) and have the game more about the player's actions, and Warren Spector agrees.

Picasso
1st Aug 2003, 23:32
You can find a copy of that PCGamer article in this thread (http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP619612110&id=19569) (it's fairly short).

A good quote:


PCG: RTS games now have RPG elements, action games now have RPG elements, even sims have been adding RPG elements...How does DX:IW further evolve with "leveling," "stats," and the other accoutrements of typical RPGs cropping up in various games?

WS: I think the evolution you see in Invisible War is toward greater focus and intensity. It isn't a question of stats or levels or other old-school RPG tropes. One of the things [lead designer] Harvey [Smith]'s been championing, and which I support, is that we want fewer traditional RPG elements. Games are about action -- not in the "bang, bang" sense, but in the "what does the player do" sense. Traditional RPGs are more about character development than player choice. Deus Ex probably incorporated more of that than Invisible War will -- DX games are all about YOU, at least at their best. I think that's a significant difference.

coolerbit
2nd Aug 2003, 19:34
Originally posted by Zero
As I'm sure you all know, this game won't have the skills system anymore. For better or for worse, it's been replaced by biomods. What do you think of this change? Discuss here.

No way. We all have the answer and we don't want any changes in the skills mode. That is one of the bests things on the game. Please think about it.

Picasso
2nd Aug 2003, 19:42
That is one of the bests things on the game.

And it's being replaced by something better.

All I'm seeing here is a fear of change. If you want a DX redux then go play some of the single-player mods for it. I'm happy that Ion Storm is moving forward.

Trollslayer
4th Aug 2003, 07:48
Originally posted by Picasso
And it's being replaced by something better.

All I'm seeing here is a fear of change. If you want a DX redux then go play some of the single-player mods for it. I'm happy that Ion Storm is moving forward.

*applauds*

Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
4th Aug 2003, 14:50
Originally posted by coolerbit
No way. We all have the answer and we don't want any changes in the skills mode. That is one of the bests things on the game. Please think about it.

hmmm I'm quite sure we all have the answer, but I'm not entirely sure we all have YOUR answer...

I'm confident the new biomods will perform perfectly, like the skills and augs did in DX1

so like Picasso, I prefer a new game, (which means changes" than an extension of the first (especially since there are a lot of mods out there that can be played if you want)

Trollslayer
4th Aug 2003, 16:41
I'd just like to make a quick comment:


Originally posted by Picasso
The skill system:

- Had much less basis in reality than biomods. Why should walking into a room (and getting an "exploration bonus") make me more adept with a rifle?


You're right about this, but then again, this is another example of the contrast between credibility/gameplay. Your example is good - why would getting inside a secret area make me more adept at rifles? But the problem is that that example is incomplete. You don't just get into the room and voila, you get skill points for accomplishments. Now, one could say the skill point awards didn't made sense, but between calling them experience points (XP in the common RPG) and skill points, i prefer skill points. DX1 pretty much behaves (to a degree) like a classless RPG system, meaning you have no fixed, predefined classes (though you have a fixed pre-determined Player Character), and have instead various skills that you can improve by points - in this case, instead of XP, you get generic skill points.

I'm neither saying its good or bad, but the example deserved a slight better clarification. We don't just get better with random actions in DX1, neither is it automated - we get better because we can improve our skills as we gain more and more experience by means of our actions and/or interactions in the game, as we decide to specialize in said skills. So in essence all i'm saying is, there was a reason to walking into a room and improving in skills. Its the tradeoff between the gameplay and the game. I prefered receiving skill points directly derived from my actions instead of increasing skills by use (which is, even if a good or realistic idea, potentially cheap), or receiving skill points by killing enemies.

All in all, i eagerly await the biomods :D

Cheers.

coolerbit
4th Aug 2003, 17:55
Originally posted by Trollslayer
I'd just like to make a quick comment:
All in all, i eagerly await the biomods :D


Well, I guess I didn't know what were this biomods so you're right.
The only thing I request is info cause I can't find it in other place, the only thing I get is pictures.

Thanks, I recognize my mistake.

BMKane
4th Sep 2003, 01:38
Just a few things to say.

About starting off with no skills: That IS realistic. Remember, JC only joined the Academy a few years before DX1. He was just a regular kid for the rest of that time. Also, the reason he doesn't have any mods is because they haven't been MADE yet. They're still implimenting the "universal aug" stuff.

DX2 length: It's still as long, but it's designed that it can be as long or short as you want. Sorta like NWN. You could go through NWN in maybe a few dozen hours, but it took me weeks to beat it, because I played every single sidequest there was available.

Biomods/skills: Biomods look interesting, though I will miss the skill system. It doesn't really matter to me. I think Ion Storm can still pull it off well, and as long as the game is fun, I don't care.

As for cross-system games, the way I see it is that the more games we dumb down, the more mainstream people get into gaming. People that normally wouldn't know a computer game from a book (And wouldn't be capable of using either), can just buy an Xbox and play games that require little to no skill or intelligence. And, since there's a lot of them, they start to make up a big part of the market. When it comes down to it, making games for several platforms will get you a lot more money, so that's what they do. (Not that I'm saying that everyone who owns a console is a nilwit)

Also, I doubt all the ammo types are merged. They probably just did that for the E3 demo so people would be able to get a feel for the game faster.

And lastly, going away from traditional RPG games is cool, but I still have that need to tinker with the game. I like customizing everything, and DX gave you that with the aug/skill system. Maybe the additional control over character will balance it out...

Bigboy177
22nd Feb 2004, 17:20
You could go through NWN in maybe a few dozen hours, but it took me weeks to beat it, because I played every single sidequest there was available.

Biomods/skills: Biomods look interesting, though I will miss the skill system. It doesn't really matter to me. I think Ion Storm can still pull it off well, and as long as the game is fun, I don't care.

I agree with you, you can pass through game, using the shrotest way, or go through all the missions, and discaver all the hidden spots. That lenghtens the game a lot... It's not as long as Deus Ex but it surely is long enough...

Skill/biomods: I like Bio Mods a lot, but I miss even more the skills. Skills gave the game RPG touch, IW is a lot poorer without them...

oohwha
23rd Feb 2004, 18:44
Originally posted by AlteredGlyph
Just wait a second. JC Denton, trained, nano-enhanced operative. And he can't even hold a sniper rifle steady? What the heck was that. It takes 2 minutes to hack a twenty percent keypad? I can only hold my breath for fifteen seconds?
Really, the skills didn't make sense. I still feel that they will have an inventory screen, but then again, did you really enjoy playing tetris with your items? Drop the gep, move the assault rifle, pick up the plasma gun... It wasn't bad, but it got annoying after a while. I, personally, like the new interface, but they'll HAVE to have a few screens, for your notes, etc. Unless, horrors of horrors, you just can automatically open a door if you know the code. That is the one thing I fear. It may be dumbed down to that level. But is it is, I'm still playing for storyline value.

I'd like to point out one particular part of this post:

I, personally, like the new interface, but they'll HAVE to have a few screens, for your notes, etc. Unless, horrors of horrors, you just can automatically open a door if you know the code. That is the one thing I fear.

Keep in mind this post was made in mid-May of 2003. That pretty much sums up the loss of the RPG element and immersion of the original Deus Ex due to the lack of a keyboard on the Xbox.

The more I read about DX2 the more I hate my Xbox :(

It wouldn't be so bad if we had only lost a little bit of immersion (like the above keypad example) but we lost ALL the immersion that DX1 gave us.

Remember writing down codes on a piece of paper near your PC? Remember guessing codes on the 2 and 3-button keypads? DX1 gave you the feeling that you WERE a secret agent. DX2 is more like just watching an agent go through the paces but not actually feeling like you are immersed in every thing that he is doing in the game.

I miss that immersion :(

Kerghan
24th Feb 2004, 07:51
They took out the skills, reloading weapons, different ammo types, headshots, grid inventory, different 'tool types', the more complex hacking method, key codes, newspapers, login names/passwords, and the list goes on...

They added a few weapons and biomods.

They sure are moving 'upward and onward' as far as game desing. :rolleyes:

Oh well, we can still have hope for Thief 3. But then again, that series didn't sell amazingly well either. It looks like they'll have to bring out their testing apes and see if they can handle T3. If not, they might have to take out some features. After all, if a drunken monkey with a 10 button controler can't handle it, the game will surely be rejected by the masses.