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Caradavin1
13th Apr 2003, 22:34
I never had this problem before, but on this mission I am...

I am making a sewer that is like the sewer beneath the city in OM's. Whenever I do grid snap, my water immediately disappears! I mean, the flood brush is even gone! I made the flood brush 1.0 foot in depth. I am having sound issues with it when I do have water - sometimes it just sounds like you're walking on grass. So, should I make the water deeper??

Also, I areabrushed the top part of my level (but not the sewers) and used Activate and Me ONly on it, right? So, then with only the areabrush activated, I used HL unsnapped, and snapped the HL'd brushes. Lo and behold - when I unactivated the area brush and unMe Only'd it, the sewer brushes had snapped as well? What gives?

amievil?
13th Apr 2003, 22:58
you mean it dissapears completely or is "jorge" texture....? i had some probs with water in my sewers in hells motel 2 and had to make the water brushes a little deeper and set under the ground of the sewer, then built the rooms again. did you have the sewers snapped to grid in the beginning? it troubles me when you say "do grid snap"...are you leaving the grid off while building? that can cause some probs like that. what i do is leave it on but if there is a brush thats at an angle that i need it to not be snapped, ill turn it off, move the brush, select anther previous brush, then turn the grid back on. the angled brush wont snap. perhaps im not understanding exactly what you mean though, and also havent that much experience yet with dromed 2, only a little. im used to tgold editor:o

Caradavin1
13th Apr 2003, 23:13
but almost every brush I draw out is never perfectly on the grid, so I have to do the highlight unsnapped option on the menus, and then snap unhighlighted. No, they don't turn to Jorge (although that used to happen), but now they disappear completely - all that's left is the air brush of where the water should be, but no water brush at all.

amievil?
14th Apr 2003, 00:46
what grid size are you using?

amievil?
14th Apr 2003, 00:49
oh and perhaps your water brushes are being processed earlier in time then the air and the air is making them dissapear. do you mean they dissapear in game mode or in the editor too? if its in game mode, its most likely what i said before. if it dissapears in the editor, thats a prob way over my head.

Caradavin1
14th Apr 2003, 01:47
Sorry, but Mcaffee popped up with an update right while I was typing you a response, and it cleared me out of the forum completely! :mad:

Anyway, the brushes weren't gone as I found out, they were reduced to 0 depth. I started over by deleting all but the airbrushes. Then I moved them down, so that they formed 4 foot deep tunnels. I cloned, reduced the depth by 1 foot, flood brushes and roombrushed. They work beautifully! Grid snapping them did not get rid of them either (they were gone in both the editor and game mode, by the by and grid size is 15 right now). I fear that if I use Full Snap Processing, an old problem will pop up, so I won't use it (it usually makes the room and flood brushes go to the wrong place). Thanks for attempting to decipher me and help me out, though - it's much appreciated.

Apache
14th Apr 2003, 02:32
Originally posted by Caradavin1
I fear that if I use Full Snap Processing, an old problem will pop up, so I won't use it (it usually makes the room and flood brushes go to the wrong place).

Big mistake..you don't grid snap now..after building more..your map will go BOOM..CRASH>>>
Try lowering your grid to 12..and when you move brushes around..Just click and drag them..That will make them grid snap automatically when you release them..



I made the flood brush 1.0 foot in depth.


Also with a flood brush that small you won;t even sound like you are in water.

Caradavin1
14th Apr 2003, 20:36
I do snap to grid, I'm just not doing full snap processing. If I do, my water brushes get all screwy. Full Snap Processing seems only to snap things that are not airbrushes. I just do snap to grid so my airbrushes snap - isn't that what's important??

Also, I built Maguire pt 1 with size 12, and then more than one person told me that I should always begin with 15 (for the basic world) and then only reduce to 12 or so when doing details. Apache,please, what is the right way here??? I don't understand why I keep getting conflicting advice from people...:confused:

Schwaa2
14th Apr 2003, 21:13
Caradavin,

Sorry, tried to post earlier and got logged off.

I don't think you are getting conflicting advice on grid size as much as getting confused.

It is best to always do as much detail as possible at a larger grid size. Dromed handles it alot better. I think what Apache is telling you is that if you make terrain at grid size 12, then you can NEVER SNAP at a larger grid. If you do then the small details will become bigger or smaller to fit the grid.

Full Snap Processing is only in Komag's Menu. Nothing is wrong with it, it just combines the seperate steps from Drom snap menu:
<b> highlight unsnapped, snap highlighted, clear HL.</b>
basically it does all these steps in one process (good or bad)
good because its easy, bad becasue you don't see what it does.

<b>highlight unsnapped</b> will make all brushes NOT snapped to grid yellow so you can see them. Keep in mind that changing grid sizes effects the results. (I'll explain next post)

<b>Snap highlighted</b> will snapp all yellow brushes to the current grid size.

<b>Clear HL</b> will clear the highlight, thus making all brushes grey again. Now if you choose highlight unsnapped again, nothing should be yellow because you just snapped them.

I'll be back...

Caradavin1
14th Apr 2003, 21:23
I don't mean to interrupt, really, (sorry).

So far, I have built this world with only grid size 15.

Thank you for clarifying what you have so far, Schwaa. Sometimes I get so embarrassed because I comprehend things differently, thereby getting confused easily. At school it is awful, because I can tell when people get tired of explaining things to me. Anyway, I had a question, why when I do full snap processing, do the roombrushes move to the grid? Sometimes I have to do that just to get the roombrushes not to be yellow anymore if nothing else works. I'm not trying to dispute what you say at all, I'm beginning to wonder if my computer (Gidget) is the one who's against me, not Dromie - or do all Dromed's have their own individual personality??:eek:

I am very grateful for the patience of the people on this forum,by the way. I appreciate all the help you provide, and look forward more to talking to you all than going to school everyday.
:D

Schwaa2
14th Apr 2003, 21:31
OK, here's the layout as to how the grid works:

Grid settings are like this:
Room sizes
16= 8 foot rooms or bigger by 16 feet (16, 24, 32, ect...) nothing smaller.
15= 4 foot rooms or bigger (4, 8, 12, 16)
14= 2 foot increments (2, 4, 6, 8)
13= 1 foot increments
12= 0.5 foot increments
11= 0.25 foot increments

Grid spacings
16= 4 foot increment
15= 2 foot inc.
14= 1 foot inc.
...

So at grid 16 you can make an 8x8x8 room and have it set in the z plane at 0, 4, 8, ect foot incriments

grid 15 is half of that and so on.That's why yuo get problems below grid 14 easily, you could have a giant room at 64x64x64.5 (which is unnessecary [the player will never notice you added that extra 1/2 foot) and then have another attached room that's 8.5x8x8 and it could be placed only 0.25 feet offset from the big room. It just makes it harder for Drom to compute.
============================================
That last paragraph might be confusing, sorry (a post i made at TTLG)

What happens is that if you make terrain at 15, then change the grid to 14 you can make brushes half the size of a 15 grid. 13= half of the 14 grid, 12 = half 13...

So if you make a brush at grid 13 and change the grid to 14, then snap, all of the brushes that were made at 13 now have to snap to a 14 grid and this is what causes those problems. A 1 foot brush has to become either a 0 or 2 foot brush to fit the larger grid and this messes them up.

What's the best way to describe this?

Grid 13 is one foot brushes.

Grid 14 is 2 foot brushes.

You can put a 2 foot brush on the one foot grid size, but you can't put a one foot brush on a two foot grid.

Say you cut a peice of bread into fourths.

The whole piece is grid 16. Each quarter is grid 15. The smallest piece that will fit grid 16 is a whole piece of bread. On grid 15 though, you could have a piece 1/4 the size, or you could have 4 pieces to make a whole (or just a whole piece).

If you want a grid 14, then you will have to cut the bread pieces all in half again. You can put all of these pieces.

I'm sorry, that seems confusing, I'll make a picture...

Caradavin1
14th Apr 2003, 21:58
Now its becoming much clearer! (seriously)

Okay, so at grid 15, the reason my water brushes would disappear is because 1 foot brushes can only stay at grid size 13. So, when I am making smaller details and snap to grid, those brushes will reappear! So, wouldn't it be better if I did the whole thing at 12 or 13? Or just make everything I want at the large grid size, and when it disappears I just don't worry because when I do the grid size to 13, it will be there?

You don't need to draw the picture, but it wouldn't be a bad thing. Hopefully, I won't be the only one who needs it - though, right now I'm not so sure.

Schwaa2
14th Apr 2003, 22:37
OK, had to log off for awhile, here's the pic:

First about your last post though.

if you make a brush at 13, snap to 15 resize to 13 those brushes will NOT be fixed, why? because they are now set to 0 feet which fits all grids and they don't have memory. You will have to select them and resize.

OK, the <b>bad thing about using small grids</b> to build the whole level. Its will be more apparrent with the pic too.

At Grid 16 you can the smallest brush you can make is 8x8x8 but it will snap to the grid on even 4 foot marks.

At grid 15 everything is half and still snapping brushes to 2 foot marks is really good.

At 14 half again and everything snaps to 1 foot marks.

Problems start to arise at 13 and smaller. The reason being is that at grid 13 the grid spacing is 0.5 feet. You start running into more errors when brushes are barely misaligned (say 0.5 feet or less from each other). Now they are still snapped to the grid but Dromed has to start calculating smaller divisions between brushes.
If you put two brushes 32x32x32 beside each other on a size 12 grid they could snap 0.25 feet apart and you might not notice because it is close. Once might be alright but if you do a whole level at grid 12 you will get alot of these adding up making the terrain really complex where you could have snapped to a larger grid and they would have aligned better to begin with.

So if you use big grids for major details you will probably have fewer probs. Then when you add detail, the amount of probs you run into will not only be fewer, but they will be easier to find since you will know to look at the details instead of the entire mission.


http://schwaa.0catch.com/Grids.jpg

OK, 'bout the pic.

grid 16, the smallest brush you can have is 8x8x8
(white - the yellow one is the original start room) This brush will snap to the grid points at 4 foot intervals.

each grid is half of the one above it, so with grid 15 , the smallest brush you can have is a 4x4x4 snapping to 2 foot intervals. But you can also have an 8x8x8 or 16x16x16 snapping to 2 feet.

ect...
===================================

here's the original response about your water:

One foot floods can have sounds but you need to make sure you do a couple of things correctly.

1- use the right grid size and don't snap to larger grid.

2- completely surround the flood or water brush with a <b>Flow</b> brush. That means top, bottom and sides fully engulfed. Flow brushes don't have to be precise, they can overlap solid no prob. If you overlap floods with different flow directions too much you will get 'weird' water surface.

3- The exact center of the FLOW need to be in air spcae (water is fine/ solid is not).

4- The surface of the water contained in 1 flow must NOT be broken. Thus, if you have 2 pools of water you either need to have 2 flow brushes OR have a connecting channel between the 2 to keep the surface intact.

5- It also need to be inside your room brush. So if the room brush goes to the floor, and the water is in a channel under the floor, you will need to resize the room to encompass the water or add a new room under the first one to encompass the water.

Schwaa2
14th Apr 2003, 22:53
I seperated this for easy of use...

Here's a good trick. First, don't use snap to grid. Its really not necessary if you use the grid while building. If the grid is turned on, the brushes will snap when you make and arrange them.

Work on grid 16 as much as you can, when you need smaller details switch to 15, then 14, ect...

That way things will line up as best they can from the start. It will also insure that you are aligning smaller details better with stuff placed on a larger grid.

Now say you've worked down to grid 13, but DOH, you need to add another street around the corner and you'd like it to be at grid 15 size. No prob, just change the grid back to 15 and make the street. Changing the grid size bigger will not effect your smaller work <b>UNLESS</b> you 'grid snap'. If you just have the grid turned on though only the brushes you move will snap.

What happens now? you're on grid 15 but want to align that grid 13 brush, just change to grid 13 again and go to work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Apache meant by grid snapping to a smaller grid is that larger grid sized brushes won't change because small grids are just fractions of a large grid. You can always put a larger brush on a small grid, it just causes probs when the larger brushes areon a grid that allows small increments like 0.5 (grid 13) or 0.25 (grid 12). If you use grid 11 then things will snap at 0.125 foot intervals (that's 1/12th of a foot, and its where problems can get really nasty.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry about the overly long winded explanation, just trying to clarify as much as possible. Hope it helps:)

Apache
15th Apr 2003, 01:10
Very good explanation..It even gave me a refresher, since I haven't really been playing with Dromed much lately..UnrealEd now..
The only reason I always start building at grid 12 and stay there threw the whole level is because seeing the lines hurts my eyes..
I never have had any problems building at 12 the whole time..then again I am very anal when it comes to lining things up..
:D

Caradavin1
15th Apr 2003, 06:14
Thank you!! :D :D

I totally understand now! The drawing really helped, I'm copying and pasting it all for my future reference, lest I forget or get confused again. Wow, things are making much more sense! LOL, no wonder my rooms were so unexpectedly big. Thank you so much! (*hop* *skip* *jump*)

amievil?
15th Apr 2003, 23:17
apache, i too leave it at size 12. seems at size 12, the grid hides itself. i dunno about t2 but the - and = keys have really helped me see the lines better. its zoom. i figured that out one day by accident and was grateful i did. why oh why couldnt they have made dromed so that you can make it full screen or almost full screen :D

dread was totally built with *gasp* grid size 11. the docs said "always use grid size 11 or higher..." so i took it as "use size 11". found out later that 12 is much better. i just set it at 12 and leave it. probably why i get errors sometimes but oh well :D

and schwaa hit it right, just leave the grid on and dont turn it off unless you really need it off for one brush and they will always snap to grid as you build them.


caradavin, i didnt get tired of trying to help, actually i just forgot about the thread, ive had alot of stuff going on in the past few days and cant remember if im coming or going. :)

Schwaa2
16th Apr 2003, 18:34
Thanks guys, wasn't sure if it would help or confuse the situation.

amievil? - The grid is still there on 11 and 12, its just smaller so you have to zoom in to see it. I always keep the grid <b>USE</b> turned on but usually hide the grid with the right click menu options, I only turn it on if I need to align things like stairs to small increments. That way I can work at any grid size without looking at the grid itself. On grids larger than 12 its so easy to line things up anyway that the grid is not needed.

amievil?
18th Apr 2003, 02:00
i meant to say "in my experience, when i changed the grid to 12 it hid itself"...meaning when i right clicked a window, it said "show grid" meaning it was hidden. i didnt change it...wierd. dunno about t2, its been a while since ive used the t2 editor, i only started on my next level and built a few streets so i havent really gotten into it yet.

bah i hate dromed :D, ive taken a few days off and the damn thing keeps calling me but im too tired to build :)