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Jidai Geki
10th Dec 2002, 14:54
Hi, all. I'm new to this forum. I've been discussing the finer points of LOK lore with one of my friends as my only outlet for years, so it's good to find a forum filled with like-minded individuals. Something's been bugging me for a while now. Kain was born as the Balance Guardian, right? And the Guardian occupies the role until their death, whereupon a new Guardian is chosen. However- Kain died. he was killed by highwaymen, and so the Guardianship should have passed to another, right? True, he was resurrected- but as a vampire, as one of the undead. Ariel is also undead, but she did not retain Guardianship. So surely Kain would have been freed of his duty upon death, and another chosen? Which means, whether or not Kain continued his unlife, it would have no bearing upon the pillars. Is this a deliberate plot twist of the part of CD/SK, or just an oversight? If I'm wrong, or somebody knows something I don't, please tell me.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Dec 2002, 15:23
Originally posted by Jidai Geki
Hi, all. I'm new to this forum. I've been discussing the finer points of LOK lore with one of my friends as my only outlet for years, so it's good to find a forum filled with like-minded individuals. Something's been bugging me for a while now. Kain was born as the Balance Guardian, right? And the Guardian occupies the role until their death, whereupon a new Guardian is chosen. However- Kain died. he was killed by highwaymen, and so the Guardianship should have passed to another, right? True, he was resurrected- but as a vampire, as one of the undead. Ariel is also undead, but she did not retain Guardianship. So surely Kain would have been freed of his duty upon death, and another chosen? Which means, whether or not Kain continued his unlife, it would have no bearing upon the pillars. Is this a deliberate plot twist of the part of CD/SK, or just an oversight? If I'm wrong, or somebody knows something I don't, please tell me.

First off, welcome to the forums! :D

Secondly, yes Kain did die. However the fact that he is apart of the undead is what keeps him tied to the Pillars as their guardian of Balance. Ariel is dead, she is a spirit/soul no longer attached to a physical form (mind you, stuck in limbo because she was wronged). At the exact moment Ariel died, Kain was born and took over the guardianship. (However he too was affected by Nupraptor's madness in the womb and ultimately corrupted). The soul is what binds the Balance guardian to their pillar, and Ariel's was relinquished/returned to the Pillars. With the Circle courrpted by Nupraptor's madness, they (the Pillars) are unable to choose new successors until they are cleansed, hence why Kain is sent off to kill his fellow guardians (which he does). Mortanius knew this, which is why Kain was targeted for assasination. At the end of Blood Omen, Kain is given the choice to save Nosgoth (by sacrificing himself) or damning it (refusing the sacrifice). We all know what was chosen. Because Kain chose to refuse the sacrifice, the Pillars are not fully cleansed and therefore cannot function or choose new successors (and might I add, have been confused in their purpose). I've commented on the fact I believe that Kain's exertion of his own free will is the example of his corruption. Until Kain falls properly(be it in SR3 or BO3), there will not be new guardians to the Pillars.

Reaper007
10th Dec 2002, 20:01
dont forget the only way kain can make new vamps is by giving them a part of his soul, which means raz, turel, dumah and all the others all hold a part of his soul!

that also means if kain alone dies nothing will be fixed because his soul, technically, is still alive. Raz and Turel WILL HAVE TO DIE to restore the pillars.

i'd love to hear ur thoughts umah!

Reaper007

warpsavant
10th Dec 2002, 20:37
YOU MUST DIE SO THAT NEW GAURDIANS CAN BE BORN!

For the first time, through the haze of madness, I SAW TRUTH, the problem did not lie in one of us, it lay in us ALL....

The entire Circle must be CLEANSED before new gaurdians can be born. The Human Kain was the first one killed, in order for a new Balance Gaurdian to be choosen, ALL THE OTHER GAURDIANS HAVE TO DIE FIRST. Then AND ONLY then, will new Gaurdians be born.

Edit: Well, it doesnt matter what order they die, as long as they all die. Then new ones will be born.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Dec 2002, 21:00
Originally posted by warpsavant
YOU MUST DIE SO THAT NEW GAURDIANS CAN BE BORN!

For the first time, through the haze of madness, I SAW TRUTH, the problem did not lie in one of us, it lay in us ALL....

The entire Circle must be CLEANSED before new gaurdians can be born. The Human Kain was the first one killed, in order for a new Balance Gaurdian to be choosen, ALL THE OTHER GAURDIANS HAVE TO DIE FIRST. Then AND ONLY then, will new Gaurdians be born.

Edit: Well, it doesnt matter what order they die, as long as they all die. Then new ones will be born.

**bows in homage** Forgive me for angering you Lord Biscuit. :p (Feel free to slap me later). ;)

Reaper - I can somewhat agree with what you are saying. (My initial post was to meant to primarily explain the difference between Ariel vs. Kain and how they relate to the guardianship). Based on your theory - providing Raziel finds and murders Turel, and takes his destiny by fully becoming one with the blade, (because Raz is already dead) - (either before or after killing Kain) it would mean then that the Circle would never be cleansed because Raziel would be trapped in the blade (and still hold a part of Kain's soul). I guess what I am getting at is Kain basically ensured that no new guardians could be chosen. And Nosgoth would never be cleansed. Brilliant! Muahhahah and you all wonder why I love him. :p

warp- What are you getting at dear? You feeling okay? Want a cookie? **offers cookie** :p ;)

warpsavant
10th Dec 2002, 21:42
I was just telling Jidai why Kain, when he was ressurected as a vampire, is still the Gaurdian. Its because other Gaurdians were still corrupted and alive, and the entire Circle had to be destroyed, before any of the Pillars would get a new Gaurdian.

So if one dies, and somehow comes back, before the rest of the Corrupted ones are killed, then that person is still the Gaurdian, because the Pillar(s) won't pick any Gaurdian(s) till all the Corrupted ones are dead.


The Killing of Kains future self (a Kain from any time after he donated portions of his soul to raise his kids) and the effect it would have on the Pillars/Gaurdians is completely different from why Kain is still the Gaurdian after the bandits kill him and Morty rasies him.

Igraine
11th Dec 2002, 05:33
Here`s a thought for the future. Why doesn`t either Kain or Raziel go back in time and kill Nupraptor before Mortanius kills Aerial that way he can`t go insane and corrupt the rest of the circle including Kain. Old Morty would still have a reason for killing Kain and turning him into a vampire, but I`m sure the rest of the circle would never acknowledge a vampire as balance guardian. Wouldn`t you love to see their faces at a meeting of all of the guardians with Kain there? At least Kain could then take his rightful place in history.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 05:42
Originally posted by Igraine
Here`s a thought for the future. Why doesn`t either Kain or Raziel go back in time and kill Nupraptor before Mortanius kills Aerial that way he can`t go insane and corrupt the rest of the circle including Kain. Old Morty would still have a reason for killing Kain and turning him into a vampire, but I`m sure the rest of the circle would never acknowledge a vampire as balance guardian. Wouldn`t you love to see their faces at a meeting of all of the guardians with Kain there? At least Kain could then take his rightful place in history.

Okay, but this still doesn't eliminate the bigger threat within the Circle, Hash'ak'gik. Come to think of it, this actually doesn't make any sense. Ariel would still be the Balance Guardian. Kain wouldn't even be born. Then there's the other side of things, you have Ariel flip out and infect the circle, not mentally mind you, but she is the hub that keeps them all together and in check. This all goes back to the notion:

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

Igraine
11th Dec 2002, 06:08
What if Kain timed it so that while Mortanius was killing Aerial he was killing Nupraptor. It`s apparent that Kain has gotten pretty good at this time travel thing. He sure does follow Raziel with apparent ease.

TempySmurf
11th Dec 2002, 06:23
Not that I haven't confused things before but.. I just don't think the pillars are corrupted because of the "madness". It's simply implied by what people have said or thought, but it's also been implied Kain is not responsible or that his sarcrifice wouldn't fix anything. Just the alternate ending to BO1 which doesn't really apply anymore.

As far as Ariel and Kain and their souls though.. That's made me wonder.. Suppose it depends on how the pillars work. Would the pillar of balance want every Balance guardian's soul? Why did they need each item to restore the pillars? Does this happen to every transfer of power with each pillar guardian throughout time or was this just a one time deal because they were crazed and the pillars were broken. Or why is Ariel even trapped at the pillars in the first place? Is it the typical ghost story of wanting to set things right before she "passes on" or is she trapped because she is or was the balance guardian. And why would having any of these items, including kain's soul set everything right? What's the pillar going to do with them? Will Kain be trapped in the pillar or his soul set free?

But according to the assumed logic so far.. Ariel died before the taint and returned to the pillars and Kain was born who was killed and Mortanius held his soul captive, since he is basically death.. i'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with that.. thus restoring kain without his soul ever going anywhere.. not to mention the pillars are corrupted so there's not going to be a new one born.

As far as Kain's soul goes though.. that's easy.. Raziel's sucked all the other souls into his lil reaver bag for later.. All he has to do is kill kain Turel and himself and all of Kain's soul will be returned to the pillars if the Reaver interacts with the Pillars.. which I figure goes in that lil round circle in the middle that connects everything. Although I still believe that this isn't the real problem and/or Kain's still trying to work on the edge of the coin and defy his supposed fate.

And I think that the Unspoken set this all up to begin with and they are just following the path that he planned out and it might not even be necessary to restore the pillars once we've come to the end game or another solution will be made available or the true cause or wotever will come forth.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 06:28
Originally posted by Igraine
What if Kain timed it so that while Mortanius was killing Aerial he was killing Nupraptor. It`s apparent that Kain has gotten pretty good at this time travel thing. He sure does follow Raziel with apparent ease.

Okay, I feel this is grasping at straws. :rolleyes:

1. You still have Hash'ak'gik to contend with. And it's pretty clear he is good at playing the role of puppetmaster in his own right and would most likely give Kain and his time-streaming ways a run for their money.

2. You also have Malek, who hasn't let another Circle member fall since the 6 were slaughtered by Vorador. (With the exception of Ariel at the hands of a fellow guardian). He also spends a lot of time around Nupraptor, and Kain couldn't defeat him during BO, he summoned Vorador to do it.

3. Throw the Time-Streamer himself in the mix to go and slaugther Kain at the exact instant he is born (and Ariel dies). Heck, you even have Hash'ak'gik himself do it.

In the time Vorador is summoned to defeat Malek, Ariel dies and Nupraptor has time to be devistated and inflict his poison amongst the Guardians. You also have the new threat of Kain being eliminated by Moebius or Hash'ak'gik in infancy. That's 3 guardians down and a Circle still corrupt. And the Pillars still can't choose new successors because it hasn't been cleansed. Elder Kain goes off and cleanses the Circle as normal and still refuses the sacrifice and there are still no new guardians.

I don't even want to get into how many paradoxes or altered timelines occur because of this crap. :rolleyes:

warpsavant
11th Dec 2002, 07:01
2. You also have Malek, who hasn't let another Circle member fall since the 6 were slaughtered by Vorador. (With the exception of Ariel at the hands of a fellow guardian). He also spends a lot of time around Nupraptor, and Kain couldn't defeat him during BO, he summoned Vorador to do it.

For whatever reason, Malek also failed to protect the 30 yr old Kain.


Here`s a thought for the future. Why doesn`t either Kain or Raziel go back in time and kill Nupraptor before Mortanius kills Aerial that way he can`t go insane and corrupt the rest of the circle including Kain. Old Morty would still have a reason for killing Kain and turning him into a vampire, but I`m sure the rest of the circle would never acknowledge a vampire as balance guardian. Wouldn`t you love to see their faces at a meeting of all of the guardians with Kain there? At least Kain could then take his rightful place in history.

He could kill Nupraptor, before he finds Ariels corpse. But unfortunatley, he can't do that, because he is with Raziel at the Pillars at these exact moments. Good suggestion though, he could have Raziel distract Malek, again, while Kain makes sure Nupraptor never finds the corpse. But this can't happen cause Kain is busy tryin to convince Raziel to not kill him.


I think they should kill Moebius! He has been corrupted/crazy since 500 yrs before BO (at least), it took like all that time for his Pillar to reflect that? Something fishy going on there.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 07:43
Originally posted by warpsavant
For whatever reason, Malek also failed to protect the 30 yr old Kain.

Did anyone know about Kain other than Mortanius. Moebius and Hash? (Before the others were killed I mean). I would assume The Circle would be responsible for locating the replacements and returning them to be trained or whatever.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by warpsavant
[B]He could kill Nupraptor, before he finds Ariels corpse. But unfortunatley, he can't do that, because he is with Raziel at the Pillars at these exact moments. Good suggestion though, he could have Raziel distract Malek, again, while Kain makes sure Nupraptor never finds the corpse. But this can't happen cause Kain is busy tryin to convince Raziel to not kill him.

You know, maybe if I slept more I would be able to remember big chunks of dialouge and scenes such as this. Where the hell were you an hour ago? :p Excellent point here nonetheless


Originally posted by warpsavant

I think they should kill Moebius! He has been corrupted/crazy since 500 yrs before BO (at least), it took like all that time for his Pillar to reflect that? Something fishy going on there.

Now you're talking. Where's my pitchfork, I feel a mob coming on. :p

Lozza Mate
11th Dec 2002, 07:49
the fact of the matter here is that Kain and raz can't really change a whole lot because doing so would cause a fatal paradox which would immediately destroy both of them. (ie: stopping ariel's murder, killing nupraptor before his attack, stopping hash, killing morty before he killed ariel)

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 07:51
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
I don't even want to get into how many paradoxes or altered timelines occur because of this crap. :rolleyes:

Anubis_Orr
11th Dec 2002, 07:51
2. You also have Malek, who hasn't let another Circle member fall since the 6 were slaughtered by Vorador. (With the exception of Ariel at the hands of a fellow guardian). He also spends a lot of time around Nupraptor, and Kain couldn't defeat him during BO, he summoned Vorador to do it.

Let's not forget that he was after Bane and Dejoule at the same time, by summoning Vorador he distracted Malek while he was free to pursue them before they could hide again or cause more trouble, finding Malek dead was just a bonus :D That Kain, he's a smart cookie :cool:

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 08:00
Ah, but Kain still did face Malek and failed to defeat him on his own earlier in the game. Given the hypothetical (Kain defeats Bane and Dejoule, then returned for Malek or perhaps faced Malek first and then went for the other two) I still think the Paladin would pose the same difficulty.

Anubis_Orr
11th Dec 2002, 08:05
Well Kain is winning until Malek pulls that last "finishing" move, however I don't think he could do that often or else why bother fighting, start with it and then the fight is over. In fact it may have weakened him so he wasn't at full power when he fought Vorador and Vorador was able to finish him off.

Vampmaster
11th Dec 2002, 12:22
Originally posted by warpsavant
YOU MUST DIE SO THAT NEW GAURDIANS CAN BE BORN!

For the first time, through the haze of madness, I SAW TRUTH, the problem did not lie in one of us, it lay in us ALL....

The entire Circle must be CLEANSED before new gaurdians can be born. The Human Kain was the first one killed, in order for a new Balance Gaurdian to be choosen, ALL THE OTHER GAURDIANS HAVE TO DIE FIRST. Then AND ONLY then, will new Gaurdians be born.

Edit: Well, it doesnt matter what order they die, as long as they all die. Then new ones will be born.

"So long as a single one of us stands... ...we are leigon!"

I think there are far more efficent ways to restore the pillers that Kain dying. Also I think Kain could have made vampires the normal way if he wanted. So why would he want it so his soul would not make it back to the pillar? Perhaps having one part of his soul still around anchors the rest of it making him immortal as long as his sons exist (Great way to outlast the hylden!). And since Raziel can not die (as far as we know) only be trapped in the Reaver the pillars will never be restored this way. However the Reaver may have the power to restore them regardless of whether Kain dies and this could be his intention. Maybe doing it this way could have the opposite effect healing the pillars restores Kain from corruption.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 17:31
Originally posted by Vampmaster
"So long as a single one of us stands... ...we are leigon!"

I think there are far more efficent ways to restore the pillers that Kain dying. Also I think Kain could have made vampires the normal way if he wanted. So why would he want it so his soul would not make it back to the pillar? Perhaps having one part of his soul still around anchors the rest of it making him immortal as long as his sons exist (Great way to outlast the hylden!). And since Raziel can not die (as far as we know) only be trapped in the Reaver the pillars will never be restored this way. However the Reaver may have the power to restore them regardless of whether Kain dies and this could be his intention. Maybe doing it this way could have the opposite effect healing the pillars restores Kain from corruption.

Then why does Kain (when speaking with Vorador) say that siring was something he could never do in BO2?
Obviously some things carried over from the regular timeline (Vorador being dead at some point and then this). If Kain could sire, he would.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 17:32
Originally posted by Vampmaster
"So long as a single one of us stands... ...we are leigon!"

I think there are far more efficent ways to restore the pillers that Kain dying. Also I think Kain could have made vampires the normal way if he wanted. So why would he want it so his soul would not make it back to the pillar? Perhaps having one part of his soul still around anchors the rest of it making him immortal as long as his sons exist (Great way to outlast the hylden!). And since Raziel can not die (as far as we know) only be trapped in the Reaver the pillars will never be restored this way. However the Reaver may have the power to restore them regardless of whether Kain dies and this could be his intention. Maybe doing it this way could have the opposite effect healing the pillars restores Kain from corruption.

Then why does Kain (when speaking with Vorador) say that siring was something he could never do in BO2?
Obviously some things carried over from the regular timeline (Vorador being dead at some point and then this). If Kain could sire normally, he would have.

Vampmaster
12th Dec 2002, 13:05
I just assumed he hadn't found out how yet.

Jidai Geki
12th Dec 2002, 15:56
Originally posted by warpsavant
I was just telling Jidai why Kain, when he was ressurected as a vampire, is still the Gaurdian. Its because other Gaurdians were still corrupted and alive, and the entire Circle had to be destroyed, before any of the Pillars would get a new Gaurdian.

So if one dies, and somehow comes back, before the rest of the Corrupted ones are killed, then that person is still the Gaurdian, because the Pillar(s) won't pick any Gaurdian(s) till all the Corrupted ones are dead.




But if this was the case, then would Ariel not retain guardianship until the other eight were also dead?

Vampmaster
12th Dec 2002, 17:00
Actually, a dead guardian remains the guardian until their token is returned to the pillar. That's why Malek was still the guardian even though he was dead (killed by Mortanius). But if the token for the balance guardian is his/her soul, then how come Ariels soul is still around when Kain is the balance guardian now. Unless the tokens are just to prove to the pillar that the guardians are dead.

solidsnake
12th Dec 2002, 18:06
I wonder what Kain's token would be?

warpsavant
12th Dec 2002, 18:11
But if this was the case, then would Ariel not retain guardianship until the other eight were also dead?

No. Because when Ariel dies the Pillars are not corrupted. Its only AFTER Nupraptor finds Ariels corpse and sends his psychic tsunami thru-out the Circle that the Pillars become incapable of picking new Gaurdians.


If the Pillars are not corrupted, and a Gaurdian dies, a new one will be born right away. (This occurs when Vorador kills 6 Circle Members, 6 new ones are being born as Vorador kills them to take their places) But if the entire Circle is Corrupted, the entire Circle must die before any new Gaurdians will be born.


Edit: The Balance Gaurdians Token is their soul.

TempySmurf
12th Dec 2002, 20:42
Slightly off topic but close enough...

I've been thinking that it would be completely possible for Moebius or anyone else with access to time travel to avoid the effects of Nupraptor's "psychic tsunami" simply by traveling into the future after Kain kills him. It's completely possible that Moebius isn't insane (seeing as how he keeps up on the future).. or as discussed somewhere in some thread about Kain's mother.. that if Kain were to take his mother to another time while she delivers baby kain and then bring him back unscathed (although that's a lil silly).

Umah Bloodomen
12th Dec 2002, 21:06
Originally posted by TempySmurf
Slightly off topic but close enough...

I've been thinking that it would be completely possible for Moebius or anyone else with access to time travel to avoid the effects of Nupraptor's "psychic tsunami" simply by traveling into the future after Kain kills him. It's completely possible that Moebius isn't insane (seeing as how he keeps up on the future).. or as discussed somewhere in some thread about Kain's mother.. that if Kain were to take his mother to another time while she delivers baby kain and then bring him back unscathed (although that's a lil silly).

Have you listened to Moebius? And you tell us he isn't insane? LOL :p

So next, you're going to say that Azimuth wasn't insane because she could travel interdimensionally and could've done that before Nupraptor had a chance to inflict his wrath, and Mortanius isn't because he was snaring souls in the spectral realm where time doesn't mean much of anything?

The Kain kidnapping Baby Kain is screwy. Why complicate things? I am sure Kain would rather kill Nupraptor before he'd worry about his mother, then this all could be avoided. LOL :p

I think this is a reach, Tempy. ;)

warpsavant
12th Dec 2002, 21:09
Kain gets hit with Nupraptors blast, twice. Once as a baby, and a second time when he is discussing the Corruption of the Pillars with Raziel as its happening. (this is evident in the cutscene and is also actually mentioned in the script)

So it's kind of unavoidable.


Moebius, he looks crazy in all time periods. He should of escaped the blast, becasue he was messed up to begin with, the blast probably just made that Git worse.

TempySmurf
12th Dec 2002, 22:31
Nah.. I don't believe that.. I just think it'd be funny..

Umah Bloodomen
12th Dec 2002, 22:36
Tempy ~ I know...someone's gotta give you a hard time though. :D

warp ~ I feel you are very testy lately. I'm getting you a squeezy stress ball for christmas. :p ;)

Lozza Mate
13th Dec 2002, 06:43
Originally posted by Vampmaster
Actually, a dead guardian remains the guardian until their token is returned to the pillar. That's why Malek was still the guardian even though he was dead (killed by Mortanius). But if the token for the balance guardian is his/her soul, then how come Ariels soul is still around when Kain is the balance guardian now. Unless the tokens are just to prove to the pillar that the guardians are dead.

malek never actually died untill vorador finished the job in dark eden

Vampmaster
13th Dec 2002, 12:26
Wasn't he like a ghost forced to haunt his armour? I remember some disscussion of this and I thought a lot of people agreed this was the case. If it wasn't I'll go with what ever the majority goes with (for a change). Has Amy said anything about this?

Jidai Geki
13th Dec 2002, 14:59
I don't know... it just bugs me. Kain was dead- stone cold, laying in his crypt for a while dead. So it stands to reason that guardianship should have been passed on. Unless- it was taken from human Kain at his death, and then- by pure coincidence- passed to vampire Kain. Very farfetched, I know...

Umah Bloodomen
13th Dec 2002, 15:35
Vampmaster ~ I always took it as because Malek failed to protect the Circle, Morty removed Malek's soul from his body and fused it to the armor. Something along the lines of making that his surrogate body. I never saw Malek actually killed until (as Lozza points out) Dark Eden.

Jidai ~ Kain was dead, I agree, but you aren't understanding that the Circle was corrupt at that time. It was corrupt for his entire 30 years of life. He was corrupted at birth. When the Circle is corrupted, it cannot function properly when guardians die and need to be replaced. It can't select the replacements until it is cleansed.

The Circle wasn't cleansed until after Kain came back. Kain died, there were still 8 corrupted guardians roaming the land. Kain's soul was still corrupt when Mortanius reanimated his corpse with it. It wasn't returned to the Pillars as it should have been (cleansed). It didn't have a chance.

Basically what I am getting at, is that the Pillars were basically nothing more than decaying monuments in Nosgoth. They were helpless and unable to do what they were intended to do.

TempySmurf
13th Dec 2002, 16:26
Not to mention that Mortanius' is the Guardian of the Pillar of Death and can manipulate the power of death at his will. I'm sure he has the ability to trap a soul where ever and however he wants to. So Kain's human soul would still exist and never have a chance to make it to the pillars even if it could. Or to trap Ariel's soul at the Pillars. Or to trap and fuse Malek's soul to his armour and keeping him as the Gaurdian of the Pillar of Conflict.

warpsavant
13th Dec 2002, 18:21
If an individual Guardian dies, another will be born to take its place. BUT if the entire Circle is corrupted, ALL of the corrupted Guardians must be wiped out before new Guardians can be born.


I don't know, this is my last effort, I must be doing a terrible job of explaining it if you can't follow my posts, sorry. Hopefully someone else can give you the answer you are looking for.

Umah Bloodomen
13th Dec 2002, 18:28
Originally posted by warpsavant
If an individual Guardian dies, another will be born to take its place. BUT if the entire Circle is corrupted, ALL of the corrupted Guardians must be wiped out before new Guardians can be born.


I don't know, this is my last effort, I must be doing a terrible job of explaining it if you can't follow my posts, sorry. Hopefully someone else can give you the answer you are looking for.

Hey I've been repeating you. We both must be horrible at conveying our message through type.

**throws in the towel herself**

Anubis_Orr
13th Dec 2002, 18:30
I don't get it.... Can you explain more?? :confused: :p

Umah Bloodomen
13th Dec 2002, 18:37
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
I don't get it.... Can you explain more?? :confused: :p

**Grabs Anubis by the throat and slaps him senseless**

**Inserts obligatory DeNiro impersonation so Anubis doesn't think I am illiterate**

Shadup you. :p ;)

EDIT: Did this clarify it for you? :p

Anubis_Orr
13th Dec 2002, 19:05
*You shut up*

Didn't have any sense to start with :D

Lingo corrects everybody, don't take offense :p

Vampmaster
13th Dec 2002, 19:37
OK, so Malek was never dead and Kain did die but the pillar did not choose another guardian because it was before he killed the rest. If Kain's token (his soul) made it back to the pillar, then if would have ben restored but it wouldn't choose a new guardian until the circle was completely clensed. Kain restored 8 of the pillars but not one of them chose a new guardian. However the thing about the guardians token needing to be returned to the pillar before they lose guardianship can still apply. How's this?:

Circle is un-corrupted and a guardian dies ->
Dead guardian remains guardian until their token is given to the pillar and then a new guardian is chosen immediately.

Circle is corrupted and a guardian dies->
Dead guardian remains guardian until their token is returned to the pillar then the pillar is clensed but remains guardianless until the rest of the pillars are clensed as well then new guardians are chosen for all the pillars.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether a pillar still needs a token to cause it to choose a new guardian when there are no corrupted pillars or whether the tokens are only used to heal corrupted pillars.

Anubis_Orr
13th Dec 2002, 19:42
The tokens are only need because the Pillars have been corrupted, any other time there'd just be a "handoff" to the next Guardian

Umah Bloodomen
13th Dec 2002, 19:57
Originally posted by Vampmaster
OK, so Malek was never dead and Kain did die but the pillar did not choose another guardian because it was before he killed the rest. If Kain's token (his soul) made it back to the pillar, then if would have ben restored but it wouldn't choose a new guardian until the circle was completely clensed. Kain restored 8 of the pillars but not one of them chose a new guardian. However the thing about the guardians token needing to be returned to the pillar before they lose guardianship can still apply. How's this?:

Circle is un-corrupted and a guardian dies ->
Dead guardian remains guardian until their token is given to the pillar and then a new guardian is chosen immediately.

Circle is corrupted and a guardian dies->
Dead guardian remains guardian until their token is returned to the pillar then the pillar is clensed but remains guardianless until the rest of the pillars are clensed as well then new guardians are chosen for all the pillars.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether a pillar still needs a token to cause it to choose a new guardian when there are no corrupted pillars or whether the tokens are only used to heal corrupted pillars.

I am just noticing Anubis' response as I write this, and my response kind of builds on that.

As for your response, Vampmaster, I believe that the tokens are a fail-safe method in case the Pillars are ever corrupted. These items are what each Guardian channels/controls their energy through.

Now I know that the souls of the guardians are symbiotically bound to the Pillars they serve, what if it is also possible their soul can be contained in the tokens they possess?

If the Pillars are uncorrupted, I don't think the tokens have to be returned, the symbiotic relationship ends, and the guardian's soul returns to the Pillar they serve (I would assume this is where the Pillar is in control). Ultimately, the token is handed off to its replacement when he/she is discovered and able to fufill the role of successor.

If the Pillars are corrupted, the soul reverts to the token. The Pillars aren't able to function and draw the soul to them thus ending the symbiotic relationship with that being. The token must then be gathered and returned as Kain did. I feel that in the token state, the soul doesn't have the means to go to the Pillars itself. It needs assistance from an outside force.

This is obviously the only time this has ever happened in the history of Nosgoth. So it's hard to tell exactly how it was planned to return the tokens. As for what happens to the tokens, I feel they are absorbed by their associated Pillar, thus restoring them (as the dialogue indicates), and the Pillar awaits the chance to give it to the successor, but they can't do that until Balance is restored.

Balance of the Pillars is almost like the leader of an army, the troops can't act until they get authority/permission to do so from higher officers. Hence why no new guardians are chosen while Balance isn't restored.

Lozza Mate
14th Dec 2002, 04:11
Originally posted by Vampmaster
Wasn't he like a ghost forced to haunt his armour? I remember some disscussion of this and I thought a lot of people agreed this was the case. If it wasn't I'll go with what ever the majority goes with (for a change). Has Amy said anything about this?

Malek's still living soul was torn from his still living body and then fused to his armor. His punishment for failing the circle was to serve them for eternity without the pleasures of the flesh.

Jidai Geki
15th Dec 2002, 02:08
Whew! I'm pretty slow on the uptake at the moment. Please ignore my more idiotic ramblings. :)