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Igraine
10th Dec 2002, 05:48
In SR2 Raziel says that only the heart of darkness can restore vampiric unlife. How then can Vorador be alive unless in the altered timeline Moebius doesn`t kill him. Raziel also says in SR2 that with the death of Vorador all of the vampires were extinct except for Kain. If this is true then where did all of the vampires in BO2 come from? Kain couldn`t have created them because he was incapacitated for 200 years. Somebody please explain.

Lady Kreliana
10th Dec 2002, 05:52
Actually, we've recently been told that BO2 does in fact take place on an alterred timeline. :) So, I think that if we just use a little imagination, we can make a good guess as to how Vorador's still alive. ;)

Jidai Geki
10th Dec 2002, 15:00
How did you find out for sure that it is on the altered timeline? I thought that was the case anyway, but now that it's official...

Umah Bloodomen
10th Dec 2002, 15:29
One of our prized members, Blincoln, took a recent trip to CD in California. There he asked LOK series director, Amy Hennig, if BO2 occurred on the altered timeline and she confirmed it.

You can view Blinc's trip to CD on his website at:


The Lost Worlds (http://www.thelostworlds.net)

warpsavant
10th Dec 2002, 20:52
Even though BO2 is in the so called altered timeline, I still think Moebius killed Vorador, and I still think Kain was the Last Vampire.
There was no Soul reaver created, but there is one in BO2. History flows around the petty actions....

All the Vampires in BO2 came from the "undead" Vorador, the one Kain somehow raised (put the head back on) for the sole purpose of creating an Army of Vampires that Kain could rule to take over Nosgoth. They even refer to this as a different species/breed.


"Do you so wish to return to the grave old friend, you are in NO position to challeng me..."

We all know Vorador was never in a grave when Janos turned him, so he must be talkin about himself pulling V out of the grave, IMHO.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Dec 2002, 21:36
Wouldn't the "undead" Vorador be vampire Vorador? :p

And what's leading you to believe that Kain put his head back on?

Could this perhaps indicate the first instance of Kain knowing how to reanimate corpses? (Meaning could a little soul-sharing also be involved?) No offense, but I thought you also backed up the fact that the statue in SR2's future was holding the real head of Vorador (which I also agreed with). IMHO, I don't think he had the head to put back on, so another way would have to be found.

warpsavant
10th Dec 2002, 21:54
There is a big gap, like 400 yrs.

Raziel saw the head in the statues hands roughly 100 yrs after BO1.

So that leaves 100 years for Kain to get the head, Raise V and force V to create the vampire Army he uses to conquer Nosgoth. I think he gets the head shortly after Raziel see's it. (possibly hours later, Kain during that time is somewhere in that time, he meets Raziel, but what is he doing before that? I think watching himself, possibly guiding his younger self. )

I think the oldest vampire is Sebastian, this could be a side effect of his Dark Gift, but none of the vampires (to me at least) seem very "old" I think its safe to assume none of them are over 300, and at the time they were conquering Nosgoth before Kains defeat, they would be real young, (< 100) makes sense to me.

Edit: I forget, I havent played BO2 in a while, I may have the gaps wrong, but I think it works out. They all talk about how their powers have grown, so it makes sense they were very young when they were Marching) Very young to the Vampires, Im guessing is anywhere between 30-100.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Dec 2002, 22:02
I actually figured Umah to be about 50-125 (the youngest of course)

But I can agree with Sebastian being the oldest (he strikes me as more mature), followed by Magnus, then Marcus then Faustus.

Igraine
11th Dec 2002, 05:16
O.K. guys, I`ve been reading this forum for several months and there has to be more to it than just sticking Vorador`s head back on. If it was that easy to restore vampires to unlife then the heart of darkness would be essentially useless, and Moebius wouldn`t have went to all of the trouble to obtain it. I mean there are dead vampires all over SR2 so why didn`t another vampire take them,put them back together if necessary, maybe give them a little infusion of blood and BOOM! they come back to life. Also, why was Vorador so upset when he learned that Kain had killed Umah? If it`s really that simple he could have restored Umah himself.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 05:33
Originally posted by Igraine
O.K. guys, I`ve been reading this forum for several months and there has to be more to it than just sticking Vorador`s head back on. If it was that easy to restore vampires to unlife then the heart of darkness would be essentially useless, and Moebius wouldn`t have went to all of the trouble to obtain it. I mean there are dead vampires all over SR2 so why didn`t another vampire take them,put them back together if necessary, maybe give them a little infusion of blood and BOOM! they come back to life. Also, why was Vorador so upset when he learned that Kain had killed Umah? If it`s really that simple he could have restored Umah himself.

First off, point out another surviving vampire other than Janos in SR2. Secondly, (and BO is not a good example of this) but technically there is only so much of the Heart (and it's power) to go around. Obviously it is going to be used in moderation if used at all. I believe Moebius was so concerned with obtaining the heart for a couple of reasons.

1. To keep it and it's power away from the vampires so they couldn't go off bringing themselves (more specifically Janos Audron) back.

2. The symbolism in showing all of humanity that Moebius and the Sarafan can bring the vampire menace down and have a trophy for their proof.

Bringing vampires to life isn't as easy as it seems. And there was no mention of the HoD anywhere in BO2. Why? Because it was in Janos' chest. Janos Audron lived. How could Vorador restore Umah with the HoD still in the chest of his own sire?

Vorador (as any parent) would naturally be upset upon the death of a child. He and Kain don't really get along all that well either, and this just gives him more reason to despise Kain.

And right now, at this point in the series, there is only one entity that has been known to reanimate corpses around here, and that's Kain. (By a totally different method than using the HoD mind you).

Igraine
11th Dec 2002, 05:48
I agree with everything you just said, Umah. Think about this. If Moebius is an ally of the Hylden ( and it certaintly looks that way ) then maybe he wanted the HoD to give to the Hylden. Kain says at the end of SR2 that he and Raziel have walked into a Hylden trap. Suppose this was a carefully orchestrated plot to obtain the HoD and use it to trap Janos and exploit him the way they did in BO2. Remember that Moebius` staff could incapacitate Janos long enough for the Hylden to enslave him. By the way, the point I was trying to make above was that reviving vampires is a lot harder than some people think.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 06:01
Originally posted by Igraine
I agree with everything you just said, Umah. Think about this. If Moebius is an ally of the Hylden ( and it certaintly looks that way ) then maybe he wanted the HoD to give to the Hylden. Kain says at the end of SR2 that he and Raziel have walked into a Hylden trap. Suppose this was a carefully orchestrated plot to obtain the HoD and use it to trap Janos and exploit him the way they did in BO2. Remember that Moebius` staff could incapacitate Janos long enough for the Hylden to enslave him. By the way, the point I was trying to make above was that reviving vampires is a lot harder than some people think.

Moebius is allied with the Hylden by chance. He worships Hash'ak'gik, whom many believe originates from the demonic dimension the Hylden were banished to way back in the day. I am sure there is some sort of partnership here (especially with his statue appearing in BO2's Eternal Prison). I've personally speculated before that I believe Hash'ak'gik struck a deal with the Hylden following their banishment and secured a way for them to return to Nosgoth despite the Ancient's attempts to keep them out. (Part of the reason why I believe Mortanius was targeted for possession).

Also, Kain doesn't even mention the Hylden until after the paradox at the end of SR2 - which is the exact moment the future events change and the timeline is altered to cause BO2. Trapping Janos in BO2 was mere revenge on behalf of the Hylden for what the Ancients did to them.

It is going to be a safe bet that it is Raziel who ends up returning the HoD to Janos, thus bringing him back to life. He won't be enslaved until this occurs.

Moebius' staff won't play a part in keeping Janos down. He's dead, there's nothing to incapacitate, except a lifeless corpse. Hence why I think it was more of a trophy, and all apart of Moebius' twisted little plan to have it stolen and returned
by Raziel.

Azazel005
11th Dec 2002, 11:11
Youll have to forgive me its so hard to keep up with this place,

Now are we sure that Moebius worships Hash'ak'Gik? I didnt really think that was likely, but you guys are always deducing so much from these games its very difficult to keep track.

:(

Great to now for sure what timeline the BO2 was on.

Umah Bloodomen
11th Dec 2002, 17:28
Moebius and Azimuth were the two Circle Guardians known to have worshipped Hash'ak'gik.

I will find some places for you to check that out.

warpsavant
11th Dec 2002, 19:39
I don't know of any evidence where its specifically stated Moebius and Azimuth worship The Unspoken. Azimuth didn't even know the Wraith Armor or Soul Reaver were in the Cathedral, so its possible she didnt know about the Altar, either.

It does sound good though. :)

TheSoulBeaver
12th Dec 2002, 17:24
(Sorry this is off the point a little, but its been bugging me!)
Umah, u said that (in another thread) "Vorador was executed 50 years before the events of BO1", correct me if im wrong but, kain saw vorador begin executed just after he travelled forward 50 years back to BO1 present.

Umah Bloodomen
12th Dec 2002, 18:35
Originally posted by TheSoulBeaver
(Sorry this is off the point a little, but its been bugging me!)
Umah, u said that (in another thread) "Vorador was executed 50 years before the events of BO1", correct me if im wrong but, kain saw vorador begin executed just after he travelled forward 50 years back to BO1 present.

It was Moebius who sent Kain back those 50 years to slay William the Just, preventing him from becoming The Nemesis. When Kain returned to the present, Vorador was publically executed by Moebius on a guillotine. Kain then returned to an era run by Moebius' cutthroat citizen army (who were again purging the vampires). At this point, he went up against the 3 perils that Moebius created, and finally Moebius himself) Kain was the last surviving vampire in Nosgoth. He never interacted with Vorador again. He went straight to the Pillars, watched Anacrothe vs. Mortanius then fought Mortanius and ultimately Hash'ak'gik before refusing the sacrifice.

EDIT - Fixed the mix up. :p I had too many ideas in this when it was originally written and mixed up what I copied and pasted.

Anubis_Orr
12th Dec 2002, 20:25
I think you need to get more sleep Umah, you're getting confused :D (If I'm wrong feel free to kill me) :p

Kain slays William the Just then locates a Time-streaming Device INSIDE the castle, which he uses. He then leaves Stahlberg and hears people cheering and with each cheer he can smell an outpouring of blood and arrives just in time to see Vorador get decapitated. Think about it, there's no way Moebius could galvanize that many people in so short a time, let alone wipe out every vampire (and capture Vorador himself) just moments after William's death.

Umah Bloodomen
12th Dec 2002, 20:58
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
I think you need to get more sleep Umah, you're getting confused :D (If I'm wrong feel free to kill me) :p

Kain slays William the Just then locates a Time-streaming Device INSIDE the castle, which he uses. He then leaves Stahlberg and hears people cheering and with each cheer he can smell an outpouring of blood and arrives just in time to see Vorador get decapitated. Think about it, there's no way Moebius could galvanize that many people in so short a time, let alone wipe out every vampire (and capture Vorador himself) just moments after William's death.

I corrected it. I realized what I did. I was going to put something else from another thread in this and copied and pasted in the wrong parts.

And Anubis, I got 12 hrs of sleep last night. ;)


EDIT I would like to know what other thread I supposedly said this in though. I'll admit I was probably going on 4 days without sleep then if I did say it. So many threads, I can't even keep track anymore. :p

darien_specter
16th Dec 2002, 20:03
A thing suddenly occurs to me (and it has been an entire semester since the one time I've played BO2, so I might just remember wrong)... and it's about Umah dying.

Vampiric lore, Blood Omen, and both Soul Reavers inform us that there are only certain ways to kill a vampire: piercing through the heart (or, in Janos' case, being deprived of same... but we can debate the ancients another day, for these are only for sure regarding created vampires), decapitation, sunlight, flame, and water. But as I recall, doesn't Umah just get beaten up, and then Kain gives her a final slice or something? Whatever happened to "a vampire's immortal flesh closes as soon as it is wounded" (or however it goes...)?

And that's it for my brief return to the forums... maybe I'll be able to get back into the rest when I get back to my parent's house in my faraway hometown... toodles!

Anubis_Orr
16th Dec 2002, 20:17
Well vampires bodies are still "living". Blood serves as their entire foundation, when we see Umah she has cuts all over her body and would have lost a lot of blood from them, without blood to fuel her body's restorative properties her body would weaken and finally die. Older vampires may be able to heal more quickly and be less susceptible to physical wounds but Umah is fairly young since should would have had to have been sired by Vorador, most likely after the destruction of Kain's army since I'm under the impression that they've never met, she's just heard tales of him. So she's just a fledgling and therefore pretty weak in terms of vampiric gifts.