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Data
15th Nov 2002, 18:51
Regarding the previous thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8511) about a level editor update I am sorry to say, that after putting the question directly to Andrew Thompson of Core Design, here is his reply:


by Andrew Thompson of Core Design - "As you may well know we tasked a small team in the US to make the editor tools commercially usable - the versions the team used to use had numerous personal add-ons and quirks - like you wouldn't believe!
Now of course, the tools are much different, they're based on Maya technology and bear very little resemblance to the previous editors. I can therefore confirm that at present we don't have any plans to re-visit the editor in it's current format - sorry."


It is sad :( , however we can still dream. :)

A lot of you have already accepted this fact, however, this is for those who have not.
If there ever comes a time that an updated level editor is made available, you can be assured, you will hear it here first.

TRWad
15th Nov 2002, 21:13
Maybe we should ask the source code from the OLD tr1/2/3/4/5 with. Then we can copy all enemies to 1 tombx.exe and update the objects.h file and a new le is born! That won't be so hard for core I guess.

Chronicles5
15th Nov 2002, 21:52
That would be nice, but I don't know if it'd happen...

I'd say ask for TR3 or 5, they have the most interesting objects, we have almost everything there is to have from TR1+2, with the exception of a few of the baddies, motorboat, etc.

Thats about it though :D Well, I guess thats my opinion, but if I had to pick two...:)

It's really too bad...however, Maya would cost.....er.....lots of money, so I thought it would be doubtful we got an editor at all, least of all in a price range most of us would find handy.

Oh well, with the programs we're getting, we can get pretty close to AOD type stuff...


You know what would be the best? If Core released to us a 3d object program made specifically for Tomb Raider objects.

eTux
15th Nov 2002, 22:25
It's not so tragical. I'm personally quite happy with the editor the way it is, and lately many things have became possible so I think I could live a year or two without a complaint for now ;)

MountainDewNut
15th Nov 2002, 22:46
Originally posted by Chronicles5
You know what would be the best? If Core released to us a 3d object program made specifically for Tomb Raider objects.

What's wrong with metasequoia or rhino?
Anyway, TRWad's Idea is what i was hoping Core would do, but I'm happy with the way that the LE is now.

traider28
15th Nov 2002, 23:32
Originally posted by Chronicles5
It's really too bad...however, Maya would cost.....er.....lots of money, so I thought it would be doubtful we got an editor at all, least of all in a price range most of us would find handy.

There is a free version,not for commercial use,Maya4 PLE.It comes with Unreal Tour. 2003 to build custom levels.I think. But maybe Core could do something like that. That way it would not cost so much. Anyway, just a thought, you never know what they will do. ;) :D :p

Tomo
16th Nov 2002, 10:30
They should give us the source codes. Its really NO hard work to zip them and load it up, they don't need them anymore anyway. I am happy with our version of the Leveleditor BUT WHY DID THEY FORGET TO INSERT RAIN AND SNOW!!!:( :mad:
Tomo

Data
16th Nov 2002, 13:24
Originally posted by Tomo
They should give us the source codes. Its really NO hard work to zip them and load it up, they don't need them anymore anyway.

I will ask Andrew about the possibility of this Tomo, however I am quite sure the answer would be no. ;)

cornchild
16th Nov 2002, 17:23
Its truly sad but not shocking this is what they have always said. But they could zip the source code and if they had add-ons and quirks why not us. Just give us the source code. There are several very talented programmers that use the trle they could have the engine identical to tr5 or even better. just think of the possibilities of are own slots added if we could add all the slots from the previous tr's. Also rain and snow it would open new doors to thr trle.

MountainDewNut
16th Nov 2002, 18:09
Originally posted by cornchild
There are several very talented programmers that use the trle they could have the engine identical to tr5 or even better.

The modification of the TR4.exe is illegal.

TRWad
16th Nov 2002, 18:31
Originally posted by MountainDewNut
The modification of the TR4.exe is illegal.

Not if they release the source codes.

cornchild
16th Nov 2002, 18:31
If they release the source code it would not be.

TenChen
16th Nov 2002, 20:07
Give a man a Level Editor and he will Build for a Year
Give a man a Source Code and he will Build Forever :D

Infortunately this is the Real world and theres no such thing as forever in the Computer Market world

Remember it all revoles around this $

Customer satisfaction is Job #2
Personal Satisfaction is Job #1

However if we Reach for the stars We may catch some of the upper atmosphere :D

Wee Bald Man
17th Nov 2002, 00:22
Hi Data,

Your efforts with Core are much appreciated. :)

May I suggest that you specifically ask for the AnimEdit and the WAD packer programs as mentioned by Texture Artist (Eidos US) and former Moderator, Rebecca Shearin? You could say to Andrew that we would of course expect no support whatsoever with these tools and would be more than happy to have the opportunity to reverse engineer them ourselves if necessary, in order to make them compatible with the TRLE.

WBM

Data
17th Nov 2002, 12:48
I have sent your requests to Core Design and I will aprise you of any developments. ;)

cornchild
17th Nov 2002, 18:23
Do they know of the accomplishments that we have made with the trle. we have surpassed so many boundries but there is a limit with this engine but if we could have the rest of there tools we could figure them ourselves because we have already came this far.

Kurtis Trent
20th Nov 2002, 23:42
Thank you for doing all this Data, it would be wonderful to have those source codes!:)

TrueRaider
21st Nov 2002, 00:18
Having the source code would be amazing, but there are too many legal problems that could arise, its safer for them not to release them :(

Data
21st Nov 2002, 17:20
The bottom line on my last correspondence with Core Design, is that they will not release the source code or any other level editor related application at this time. There are concerns as to the reasonable amount of resource required in order to produce a release of software that met the standard of Core Design. I can understand this as they are at the moment at a crucial time in the AOD development including other projects.

I would therefore like to suggest an alternative plan of action.

I will start a new topic ( http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10061 ) in order to generate the TRLE interest and then forward that on to Core Design. I hope by doing so, they may reconsider their efforts toward allowing us greater freedom as regards the level editor including all software.

Kurtis Trent
21st Nov 2002, 22:36
In the thread where we sign our name, do we have to have our last name?

Data
22nd Nov 2002, 18:08
Originally posted by Kurtis Trent
In the thread where we sign our name, do we have to have our last name?

Petitions always carry more weight with surnames, however it is your choice and not mandatory. ;)

jso2897
24th Nov 2002, 13:37
I understand CORE's position. When you have a unique and highly marketable product, you don't give away the tools to duplicate it. In fact, the Tombraider legacy games are still selling better than a lot of games. How many of you have bought a legacy game in the last year? I bought a copy of TR1 Platinum off Stella's site this year - to replace my old one.
The Level Editor is a great toy for those who have the time to play with it(I don't). The comunity of people who do is a rich and diverse group, and some of it's members have created some incredibly detailed and lovingly crafted levels.
I have tried to play some of them, and they are beautiful and amazing. And they also suck. They are slow, jerky, bug-ridden, and, at best, semi-functional. If you bought them on a CD as a game, you would NOT be satisfied.
Lets face it. If you want to design REAL Tombraider games, fill out an employment app. and send it to CORE/EIDOS. For one thing, to spend the kind of time that's required to produce first rate product, that has to be your real job.

PS: After reading this post, I realized that the first response I'm liable to get is one taking offense at my description of levels I have played, something along the lines of"Well, I'd like to see YOU do better!". But that's just my point. I established, to my own satisfaction, very early in the game that I couldn't produce a satisfactory product with this set of tools. CORE/EIDOS is in the entertainment business, and they offered the Level editor as just that: an entertainment. It's not a real gamebuilding tool, and wasn't intended to be.

Data
28th Nov 2002, 20:41
Originally posted by jso2897
I understand CORE's position. When you have a unique and highly marketable product, you don't give away the tools to duplicate it. In fact, the Tombraider legacy games are still selling better than a lot of games. How many of you have bought a legacy game in the last year? I bought a copy of TR1 Platinum off Stella's site this year - to replace my old one.
The Level Editor is a great toy for those who have the time to play with it(I don't). The comunity of people who do is a rich and diverse group, and some of it's members have created some incredibly detailed and lovingly crafted levels.
I have tried to play some of them, and they are beautiful and amazing. And they also suck. They are slow, jerky, bug-ridden, and, at best, semi-functional. If you bought them on a CD as a game, you would NOT be satisfied.
Lets face it. If you want to design REAL Tombraider games, fill out an employment app. and send it to CORE/EIDOS. For one thing, to spend the kind of time that's required to produce first rate product, that has to be your real job.

PS: After reading this post, I realized that the first response I'm liable to get is one taking offense at my description of levels I have played, something along the lines of"Well, I'd like to see YOU do better!". But that's just my point. I established, to my own satisfaction, very early in the game that I couldn't produce a satisfactory product with this set of tools. CORE/EIDOS is in the entertainment business, and they offered the Level editor as just that: an entertainment. It's not a real gamebuilding tool, and wasn't intended to be.

Thank you for your comment JSO, however I feel compelled to support fellow level builders. There are indeed quite a few custom levels that are quite insignificant, however there are a number that in my humble opinion are as good as if not better than levels designed by Core Design.

As for the petition for the TRLE source code etc. I get the impression from Andrew Thompson of Core Design that it is not completely out of the question for the release of TRLE Anim editor, TR4 source code etc, merely that Core Design do not currently have the resources for them to release such software in an acceptable format at the moment, however I believe the future can hold many surprises. ;)

jso2897
29th Nov 2002, 14:08
By all means, Data. I think the TRLE community is great, and I agree that some of the levels people have produced are beautiful, even if they don't play so hot. And if they decide to actually give you the code, then hurrah and more power to you. It would certainly rekindle my interest in level editing.
But, all I'm saying is, don't hold your breath. I don't think they're gonna do it.

Data
29th Nov 2002, 18:03
Originally posted by jso2897
.....................But, all I'm saying is, don't hold your breath. I don't think they're gonna do it.

IMHO This thread and the associated petition thread are here for positive reasons; i.e. we would like the Source code etc., now I understand your point of view, however in the circumstances we would prefer only positive comments as these would help to keep this campaign going; negative comments in this case do not serve any purpose apart from turning optimism into pessimism. ;)

Wee Bald Man
30th Nov 2002, 13:54
Well said Data. I have always lived by the dictum that nothing ventured leads to nothing gained.

Every step made contributes towards the final result. Even if this particular attempt were not to succeed I personally feel that it is another step closer to the day that we do succeed.

Even if it takes 5 years, I and many others will still be here and will remember this effort as one of many in the road to getting the last remaining tools and source code from Core.

WBM

Ale
30th Nov 2002, 19:15
Another proverb :
"Il n’est pas necessaire d’esperer pour entreprendre, ni de reussir pour perseverer".
(There is no need to have hope to attempt, and no need to have success to persevere).

However, in our case, there is a reasonable chance that we succeed :)

Data
30th Nov 2002, 23:15
Originally posted by Ale
Another proverb :
"Il n’est pas necessaire d’esperer pour entreprendre, ni de reussir pour perseverer".
(There is no need to have hope to attempt, and no need to have success to persevere).

However, in our case, there is a reasonable chance that we succeed :)

I also have a proverb Ale, "Ask not, get not!" :D

jso2897
1st Dec 2002, 01:19
Well, I hope they do it for you. Good luck.

iqi86
1st Dec 2002, 14:22
Well the petition is GROWING......

Hope EIDOS or Core take this seriously.......

maxx
9th Dec 2002, 23:31
How about some info about the "not used" LE features in the meanwhile? Or the various options in the "edit object" box?
I can't believe they're really doing nothing ... I just don't want to believe ;)

Data
10th Dec 2002, 19:15
Patience is well rewarded. ;)

daniel
10th Dec 2002, 19:25
And impatience will be rewarded best :D.

daniel
19th Dec 2002, 21:31
Hi Data,
when will the petition be sent to core design?

Data
19th Dec 2002, 22:36
Originally posted by Daniel
Hi Data,
when will the petition be sent to core design?

When we have enough signatures Daniel. I am afraid it will have to be a lot more than 100 if we are to get a response.
There would be nothing gained sending it until at least after AOD has been released. We all have to be very patient with this one. ;)

daniel
20th Dec 2002, 12:46
..May the patience be with us :D.

Number6
23rd Dec 2002, 16:46
An idea occured to me...

If instead of giving the source code they had code-downloader under contract (gasp) so that any amelioration of said would have to be sent gratis back to Eidos, they would surely gain as more heads the mode ideas, no?

Somewhere out there are a few code gurus that could gett he idea of the decade but for the occasion to participate.

Have or name a code moderator with source code control to integrate all betterment (warning: this could turn into a full itme job!) and re-distribute the editor or any add-ons.

I could see a solution where the nodified editor would load add-ons made by many peoples if these were present, likke any 3D program.

Any comments?

Data
23rd Dec 2002, 22:32
Thank you Number6, and though ID Software has done a similar thing, Core Design may not do this simply because I believe they would prefer to have control over the whole process; and that would take up many of their valuable resourses. All we can do is wait for the correct time. Thank you for your input nevertheless. ;)

aktrekker
24th Dec 2002, 14:28
What if someone was hired as an (unpaid) employee of Core? Then Core would still be in control of the process without dedicating any resources.

Tomo
4th Jan 2003, 10:27
Hi,
when will the petition be sent to core design? I guess we have at least more than 100 signatures. I think you got some more by email? If Core-Design does not want to give us the sources, do you ask if we can modifie the tr4.Exe legally? Its an old game, I guess that core-design will not use this sources anymore.

Tomo

Data
4th Jan 2003, 23:36
Originally posted by Tomo
Hi,
when will the petition be sent to core design? I guess we have at least more than 100 signatures. I think you got some more by email? If Core-Design does not want to give us the sources, do you ask if we can modifie the tr4.Exe legally? Its an old game, I guess that core-design will not use this sources anymore.

Tomo

Hello Tomo, we have nearly 100 so far, however more is better. Because Core Design are tied up with AOD and other games in development at the moment, it would not be a good time right now, however I am keeping my eyes and ears open on this and will do my best to find the correct moment; as I have said, we must be patient.
If the outcome would be in our favour, I believe Core Design would wish to oversee and prepare any access that the public would have to the source code; that is their way, and we must respect that. :)

Number6
7th Jan 2003, 01:22
Most application support automation (where one can make another application do things through command line and interfacing (programmer's will know of what I speak))

How about they let out the object library tot he level Editor or in case there is no published interface (sorry, geek stuff again), let a few select programmer under contract, put one in just so we could do add-ins to the LE.

Dan the Jazzman
7th Jan 2003, 19:20
Forgive my ignorance, I'm not a programmer or anything, I was just wondering exactly what a source code is. As far as I can tell it's some information which programmers can use to build other programs and things, but I was just wondering if anyone could enlighten me :)

Also, this is probably a stupid question, but I was just wondering, I assume that it's also illegal to edit the TR4 exe file distributed with the demo or the times level? I just never saw any license type thingy with. But then, I don't know anything about anything so that's why I have to ask :D

Data
7th Jan 2003, 20:47
Originally posted by Dan the Jazzman
I was just wondering exactly what a source code is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assume that it's also illegal to edit the TR4 exe file distributed with the demo or the times level?


The source code would be the original code before assembly generally speaking, however there are programmers here who could explain it in more detail.

You are correct, it is still against the terms of use to edit the TR4.exe file, however this is one thing that we are hoping will reverse one day. ;)

Data
7th Jan 2003, 20:49
Originally posted by Number6
Most application support automation (where one can make another application do things through command line and interfacing (programmer's will know of what I speak))

How about they let out the object library tot he level Editor or in case there is no published interface (sorry, geek stuff again), let a few select programmer under contract, put one in just so we could do add-ins to the LE.

Thank you Number6, all ideas will be taken into consideration. ;)

sebas
11th Jan 2003, 09:46
@Data

Why Core does not release a TR:AOD Level Editor? Many games have their own level editor, why not with AOD? :(

AOD Game and AOD Level Editor, I'd buy both if they'd be released separately. And I think I would not be the only one ;)

AOD with Level Editor... why not? Graphics are made with Maya but they can create an "exporting utility" for maya file formats to other 3D packages or .3ds/.dxf/whatever to an own TR:AOD file format. Right?

This LE we have is simply awesome, and we want the codes, of course. But why not a different solution? TR:AOD LE, new stuff to buy (money to Eidos and happinesss for us :D)

"AOD LE could be released separately and not exactly at the same time with AOD Game" giving up the interest of AOD releasing the LE after some months. Then, a contest for all the LE users for the participation in something like AOD GOLD. Many people'd buy the LE and Game for such reason (you'd need buy the V.Game to buy the V.LE with something like... it's needed some files of the V.Game)

What's the problem Data? I think sounds interesting for all the parts, don't you think? Well, take it like a suggestion :(, ok?


sebas :)

TRWad
11th Jan 2003, 18:11
Hi sebas!

I once asked the same to core, but they use maya to make the rooms, which is a tool that costs very much money, more then 20 times the cost of aod I guess (if it's not more!).

DKSM
11th Jan 2003, 22:22
Ok, this is talking about the source code.

At the LCO Chat, there was an interview with Gary Reading, the PR Guy I think from Core.

When asked about releasing source codes, he replied:
"Probably not as we are so busy with the next episode and also other games we are developing."


Ohh and about the level editor, he also said no because they use Maya and that's a lot of money, although there could be a possibility of one in a year or two. He also said that there were not enough resources because of the workloads.

sebas
12th Jan 2003, 13:44
Yes, that's really right :/.

Core don't usually develop "commercial" level editors, they have not the enough time to develop them. AOD is a perfect example, they use the powerful "Maya" instead of waste time creating own modelling tools... that's very logical :)

Not so good for fans who want to be players and developers too, right? :(. Taking practice with Core Level Editors for the future ;)

We have TRLR:LE and since Core don't usually have time to develop commercial level editors... we are lucky :cool:

sebas :)

Data
12th Jan 2003, 22:40
Originally posted by DKSM
Ok, this is talking about the source code.

At the LCO Chat, there was an interview with Gary Reading, the PR Guy I think from Core.

When asked about releasing source codes, he replied:
"Probably not as we are so busy with the next episode and also other games we are developing."


Ohh and about the level editor, he also said no because they use Maya and that's a lot of money, although there could be a possibility of one in a year or two. He also said that there were not enough resources because of the workloads.

Yes DKSM, I had just about the same answer from Andrew Thompson of Core Design, however I am sure there is an equitable way that all can benefit from, and although we should not hold our breath over the short term, I believe the long term could strategically be the correct one. ;)

allday
16th Jan 2003, 09:58
I am new to these forums, so go easy on me for a day or two...

I was about to ask this very question (refer lead post) and have been looking for an answer all over the Internet. You would have thought that given the popularity of the Level Editor, Eidos and Core should have made it a priority, no matter how "seemingly difficult" making a user-friendly editor appears. I am most disappointed. One can only hope that by the time Angel Of Darkness makes it to the Xbox (I can dream can't I?), Eidos will have included an editor. What a selling point that would be.

Data
17th Jan 2003, 23:12
Welcome allday. It is a sad fact that there will not be an editor for the next Tomb Raider game, however we are campaigning to get the source code etc. for the TR4 engine; it may take some time though, but we continue to dream until it becomes a reality.

Treeble
18th Jan 2003, 17:42
I am not sure why allday is disappointed, but I for one am very happy that TRLE is a simple to learn tool. It might be hard at the beginning (what isn't?), but once you get used to it, it's very easy to manage it.

It's like a computer. When I first got in touch with it I had to ask my brother to turn it on, lol.

Zoolander
19th Jan 2003, 07:18
Now please don't take any of this the wrong way. I realize we all want a new editor or an updated one, and we may in the future, but how long can we all stay interested? TR maybe great but can you really wait 2 or more years to get all this? In that time AOD will be out and a few sequels perhaps, I'm just not sure the interest will still be there. I mean look how much interest isn't here anymore, the TRLE forum use to be super busy with tons of levels coming out. Don't get me wrong, I'll always enjoy level building and know others will to, just not to the extent we once did. This said we need to all sign that petition ASAP and get it now.

dhama
19th Jan 2003, 11:56
Originally posted by Zoolander
Now please don't take any of this the wrong way. I realize we all want a new editor or an updated one, and we may in the future, but how long can we all stay interested? ...........

Do you remember a game called 'Doom' :cool: , by ID Software? well it's been around for about 10 years and there are still doom level creators out there relishing in the source code. They've even enhanced the code to accomadate uptodate video cards and DirectX.
I can't see the interest in Tombraider waivering to much in the near future, just look at the interest in this forum. ;)
As long as there is something to look forward to, the interest will remain.
Although I haven't released a level myself in the last couple of years, I still dabble in it, and who knows; I may just finish one. :D
I'm not a modern programmer (I used to use assembly language though) so the actual source code won't interest me directly, but I realy think if it is released, that the interest of 'original' Tombraider will go on for many years to come. It will become a cult, mark my words. ;)

Zoolander
19th Jan 2003, 19:27
Originally posted by dhama
I realy think if it is released, that the interest of 'original' Tombraider will go on for many years to come. It will become a cult, mark my words. ;)

I ain't taking no pills to get on any spaceships.:D