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L_Master562
26th Oct 2002, 21:03
I was going through old issues of video game magazines I have. I was going through and issue of EGM2 that certainly stood out to me. On page 64, there was a Blood Omen Legacy of Kain contest. It was only for a T-Shirt with the original Bo1 case art on it. The rules were that you had to submit the top 10 reasons why NOT to save a princess. Thats not what was interesting me. I looked to see the FMV images on the right side of the page. An image I didn't recognize was there. Unless I missed something, I never saw Kain sword fighting in WHITE armor. It reminded me of Kain in the beggining of the game, but I don't remember seeing it. It right here. http://www.geocities.com/legacyofkainmedia/kain.html
Anyone know if it was cut out or something?

warpsavant
26th Oct 2002, 21:18
Is that human Kain or something?

Isnt the Bone Armor white? I forget.

Rook
26th Oct 2002, 21:23
It looks, to me, like vamp Kain. Human Kain had black hair, I believe--or darker than that pic, anyway.

And I believe the Bone Armor was white, so it's possible...

Umah Bloodomen
27th Oct 2002, 00:34
I don't think that armor is the bone armor. If you check out the armor on my site, the bone armor is obviously more detailed in the image I provided in the flash menu (more bone-looking). If you also check the story section, it clearly shows the same armor as shown in LMaster's picture to look more like the iron armor (only white).

Ardeth's site has a picture from the FMV which shows the armor depicted in LMaster's picture. You can check it out yourself here (http://www.darkchronicle.co.uk/archive/xkain.html)

It would appear that the iron armor actually tainted (became gray) when Kain was turned into a vampire. (More symbolic to the notion of vampiric "unlife".)

I would agree that the image LMaster has displayed for us, is from a deleted portion of the game. (We never saw vampire Kain fight in white armor). But the white armor did make an appearance and I am standing behind the fact it is still the iron armor as opposed to the bone armor.

EDIT Had to fix the link

blincoln
27th Oct 2002, 01:15
I would guess that's a cinematic of Kain in the fight before being killed. Maybe that part was originally planned as a cinematic, but since there wasn't enough room on the disc for any more videos they turned it into a playable section? I always thought it was kind of weird that there was this totally short playable bit in-between two lengthy cinematics.
Is there any chance I can get the issue # from that EGM2, Master L?

Umah Bloodomen
27th Oct 2002, 01:24
Soliciting information eh? :p

Interesting that there could've been a cinematic scene as Kain was assassinated. But Blinc, explain to me why Kain in LMaster's picture is already a vampire. Human Kain was definately flesh tone and had black hair. The image clearly shows his pale flesh and white hair.

Rook
27th Oct 2002, 02:02
Or it could be an FMV of him getting back at his assassins.:D If that is the pre-vamp Iron Armor, which it does appear to be, it sort of throws a wrench in things that vamp Kain is wearing it...

Umah Bloodomen
27th Oct 2002, 02:39
I like that notion. I am more than willing to buy that it is an image of Kain returning to the outskirts of Ziegsthurl to avenge his death on the band of brigands who were responsible. I would pinpoint the time of this "unreleased" FMV to have occurred just prior to the Mortanius speech where he says that Kain's quest isn't over.

blincoln
27th Oct 2002, 16:35
Maybe Chris can clue us in, since he tested the game while it was in development =).

Morte
27th Oct 2002, 22:27
This is undoubtedly iron armour, the one human Kain was wearing, before it was "tempered" in the magical fire.
See how the plate parts are arranged over the mail?
Most definitely iron armour, just compare it with the picture of iron armour from BO menu.

Now the interesting part here is whether the scene depicted is from the fight that brought him death, or the one outside his mausoleum, when he avenged himself.
The fellow on the left certainly matches a brigand in appearance, most notably because of the hood he is wearing(like the in-game brigands).
Now, if you look closely, you'll see that Kain's hair isn't white but blonde in this picture. And his complexion is debatable, since the image is not very clear.
So it is quite possible that this was meant to be an early FMV of the fight in front of the tavern, before Kain is slain, and then later it was cut out, for whatever reason, possibly because of changes to the game itself(Kain's hair being black, etc.)
However, it is also possible that authors at first intended for Kain to "return" with unchanged armour and blonde hair(possibly turned from black to blonde, which later got changed to black-> white, or even remained unchanged), and is indeed fighting one of his killers on that image.
The fact that it seems to be at nighttime is of little help, since we know that Kain was murdered at dusk and, if my memory serves me correctly, when he exited his mausoleum, it was also night.
That shrubery in the background doesn't really tell us anything, either.
The only thing that is certain here, is that that is iron armour he is wearing, with very high possibility of the weapon he wields being his trusted iron sword.

As for what point in the timeline is this scene depicting, it could be either just before his death, or just after his second birth.
There is too many unknown factors to make any definite conclusions here.

L_Master562
27th Oct 2002, 23:38
Now that EGM2 became Expert Gamer, that sorta made things confusing to many. This image was odd when I was flipping through pages. It was just a glaring oddity in my eyes. The image did lose a bit of quality and size when I scanned it as when I scanned it it was huge and I scaled it down to get the image to run on my computer because of sheer size and bitmap size. The image was about the same size as what is on my site off by about a few centimeters. Same quality as well. Small image. The original is clearer, and IT IS the vampire face. I thought at first myself it was right when Kain was first killed, but the face throws thew assumption into the abyss. The hair in the picture does look blond as well making things even more confusing. I go with the movie cut do to CD size restrictions. Seems like something big though from the beggining of the game. It is unmistakably the iron armor. The gold trim in the mag is easy to make out. Too many contradictions......making my head EXPOLODE!!!!! I hope Chris knows whats up. That would make one of us.

Edit:I'd like to put a link to the three images (pre-my image-post death Kain) With the center being my image with the other two being ones borrowed from Ardeth's site for now. Right now I don't have the time to re-install Bo1 and copy all the saves from disk to get all the comparative shots I want right now and I can't find my LoK image repository disk either. Moving rooms around in my house. I moved my huge office with little stuff in it to my room and my room to the office. So much space now both ways. http://lmaster562.netfirms.com/Kain.html

Umah Bloodomen
28th Oct 2002, 05:03
Originally posted by Morte
Now the interesting part here is whether the scene depicted is from the fight that brought him death, or the one outside his mausoleum, when he avenged himself.
The fellow on the left certainly matches a brigand in appearance, most notably because of the hood he is wearing(like the in-game brigands).

This is clearly a shot of post-mortum Kain. He is clearly a vampire in this image. Of course it is a brigand in the picture, Kain avenged himself after returning from the grave. Read my statement above and the timing will piece together.


Originally posted by Morte
Now, if you look closely, you'll see that Kain's hair isn't white but blonde in this picture. And his complexion is debatable, since the image is not very clear.
So it is quite possible that this was meant to be an early FMV of the fight in front of the tavern, before Kain is slain, and then later it was cut out, for whatever reason, possibly because of changes to the game itself(Kain's hair being black, etc.)

The picture is not clear and his hair is not blonde. It is obviously a dated magazine for one (hence the shotty color scheme) and it wasn't transferred through the scanner well either. He is definately a lot paler-complected than his human form. (You can tell he is flesh tone when he's alive). Human Kain always had black hair. That was never changed/added/deleted from the game content. Alive = black hair. Dead = white hair.


Originally posted by Morte
However, it is also possible that authors at first intended for Kain to "return" with unchanged armour and blonde hair(possibly turned from black to blonde, which later got changed to black-> white, or even remained unchanged), and is indeed fighting one of his killers on that image.

I will believe the unchanged armor bit, but the rest is absurd. Early images of Kain were depicted with black hair not blonde. Look at the map on my site (with the early/concept sketches).

http://www.chronoplast.net/Bloodomen/Map/bomapbig.htm

Pay especially close attention to the lower left-hand corner where Mortanius is bringing Kain back and the upper left/center area where the armor is actually changing from white to gray. You can also tell the differences in hair color from blonde to black and gray in the map image. Kain never was a blonde.


Originally posted by Morte
The fact that it seems to be at nighttime is of little help, since we know that Kain was murdered at dusk and, if my memory serves me correctly, when he exited his mausoleum, it was also night.
That shrubery in the background doesn't really tell us anything, either.
The only thing that is certain here, is that that is iron armour he is wearing, with very high possibility of the weapon he wields being his trusted iron sword.

I distinctly remember on my many treks through the game that the time Kain arrives in the woods outside of Ziegsthurl to get his revenge, it is dusk/dark (hence the nighttime appearance). The shurbery does indicate that he is in the woods, not in a town. His vengeance was carried out in the woods outside of Ziegsturhl. I still agree that this is the iron armor and will include the notion that the iron sword is in his hands.


Originally posted by Morte
As for what point in the timeline is this scene depicting, it could be either just before his death, or just after his second birth.
There is too many unknown factors to make any definite conclusions here.

The image is clearly after his birth as a vampire. Kain is obviously vampiric in the image. The only logicial conclusion is the fact this missing FMV shot is during Kain's quest for vengeance prior to discovering there was more to the puzzle than he had planned on.

Morte
28th Oct 2002, 14:00
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
This is clearly a shot of post-mortum Kain. He is clearly a vampire in this image. Of course it is a brigand in the picture, Kain avenged himself after returning from the grave. Read my statement above and the timing will piece together.

Perhaps.


The picture is not clear and his hair is not blonde. It is obviously a dated magazine for one (hence the shotty color scheme) and it wasn't transferred through the scanner well either. He is definately a lot paler-complected than his human form. (You can tell he is flesh tone when he's alive). Human Kain always had black hair. That was never changed/added/deleted from the game content. Alive = black hair. Dead = white hair.

It is clear enough that it is quite evident, that his hair is in fact blonde. Or perhaps it's just the lighting, in BO FMVs Kain's hair actually looks grey sometimes, when it is really white.
But on second look, his complexion does indeed appear to be quite pale, so I would agree that it is most likely a vampire Kain.
Since this FMV was removed, it is possible that they intended for his hair to turn blonde instead of white, or it was blonde all along, but this got removed later. That was why it never appeared in the game in the first place - because it was removed in an early stage of development, the same way publicity shots of certain games contain material that never appears in the actual game itself.
And you can't really tell what was changed/added/removed from the game during the stages of development, unless you have some inside knowledge.




I will believe the unchanged armor bit, but the rest is absurd. Early images of Kain were depicted with black hair not blonde. Look at the map on my site (with the early/concept sketches).

http://www.chronoplast.net/Bloodomen/Map/bomapbig.htm

Pay especially close attention to the lower left-hand corner where Mortanius is bringing Kain back and the upper left/center area where the armor is actually changing from white to gray. You can also tell the differences in hair color from blonde to black and gray in the map image. Kain never was a blonde.

I have that map on paper, I got it with Blood Omen. Images on it don't actually prove anything, since this FMV is part of material that was removed/never integrated into the game, perhaps because it did not match, because they changed some things(such as color of Kain's hair). Sketches on the map match the game, if they wouldn't, they would not include them, in the same way that FMV was not included(provided that this was the reason for its removal, of course, of which we can't be certain).




The image is clearly after his birth as a vampire. Kain is obviously vampiric in the image. The only logicial conclusion is the fact this missing FMV shot is during Kain's quest for vengeance prior to discovering there was more to the puzzle than he had planned on.

I concur, especially after what L_Master said about Kain's face being vampiric in that image. Perhaps this FMV was replaced with Mortanius' speech as Kain exacted his revenge.
And about that shrubery; it is in town as well, Ziegsturhl is sorrounded by trees/shrubery, with tavern being on the edge of town, but like I said, it is more likely that this FMV was of his second fight with his killers.

blincoln
3rd Nov 2002, 05:49
I asked Amy about this when I visited, and my guess was right. It's from an FMV version of the Kain getting killed scene, which was cut because it didn't turn out very well. It was made before they decided to give Human Kain black hair.

Rook
3rd Nov 2002, 06:47
Yeah, it just figures I'd be wrong. :rolleyes: :D

blincoln
3rd Nov 2002, 07:32
Hey, I've gotten much bigger things wrong than that. In fact, they're still sitting on my site in need of correction. *cough*darkeden*cough* =).

Rook
3rd Nov 2002, 07:44
oooOOOOoooohhh! I must have missed that one... :eek:

***runs off to have a look before the info gets changed***

kidding...;)

I honestly figured that it was the armor itself that they later decided to change, not his hair color. Oops. Duh... http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/aktion061.gif