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View Full Version : Who's The First Demon ... ?



Lady Minerva
22nd Oct 2002, 10:27
Okay, I was playing BO2 just now and I'm going thru' a cut scene that always makes me wonder. It's when Vorador is describing the fact that there are demons wondering the countryside, outside of town, ... just before sending Kain off to seek out the Seer. And Kain comments that he's already met a demon.

Does anyone have a clue as to what he means here?

Serul
22nd Oct 2002, 12:54
I think he means the demons from Blood Omen 1. The ones that were sent by Azimuth the Planer.

warpsavant
22nd Oct 2002, 18:01
I forget, but I think he was referin to a Glyph Rite.

darkghoul
23rd Oct 2002, 19:01
Or mabye he means the demon that possessed mortanius.

Umah Bloodomen
23rd Oct 2002, 19:07
Did we ever stop to think that Kain was actually referring to The Sarafan Lord?

EDIT Allow me to elaborate a bit. Vorador used the "demon's roaming the countryside" speech in an attempt to try and sway Kain from persuing the goal of the Nexus stone/device/etc. and the eventual defeat of TSL. Kain responds in the manner he does to imply that he's encountered the supposed biggest and baddest, the ones roaming around don't really phase him.

keepittrue
24th Oct 2002, 01:38
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Did we ever stop to think that Kain was actually referring to The Sarafan Lord?

EDIT Allow me to elaborate a bit. Vorador used the "demon's roaming the countryside" speech in an attempt to try and sway Kain from persuing the goal of the Nexus stone/device/etc. and the eventual defeat of TSL. Kain responds in the manner he does to imply that he's encountered the supposed biggest and baddest, the ones roaming around don't really phase him.

Why do I get the feeling you really dont like Vorador.

Umah Bloodomen
24th Oct 2002, 02:11
I like Vorador. He's comes off as a wise and eloquent vampire. But the more I think about it, the more somethings about him just don't add up. I think he's a great asset to the storyline and I look forward to what develops from his character in future installments.

I think it would be a nice twist in the story for him to be a traitor.

Rook
24th Oct 2002, 04:22
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Did we ever stop to think that Kain was actually referring to The Sarafan Lord?


Yes.;)

ZelenGangrel
25th Oct 2002, 05:23
I choose to believe he's referring to Hash'ak'gik

The Unspoken
The Dark Entity
and so many other lovely name he's known by these days.

Man... that demon gets around.

;)

well.... he did... anyway:rolleyes:

Rook
25th Oct 2002, 10:32
I had always thought it was a reference to either the Sarafan Lord or Hash. I'd say, between the two, it's probably more likely that he's referring to Hash.

Now just watch me be wrong...:o :D

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/rook/Smileys/vorsmfin.gif

keepittrue
25th Oct 2002, 18:00
I thought he was talking about the demons in BO1.

Shadow Man
28th Oct 2002, 20:09
Kain could not be refering to the demons outside Avernus Cathedral because he says that he has fought
ONE of these before, so he is probably refering to Hash'ak'gik, because Kain doesn't know that The Sarafan Lord is a demon yet. I know you're going to say 'but how could he have lived for over 200 years so...', and the answer is that the Pillar Gaurdians lived for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years, and The Sarafan Lord is in human disguise, so to Kain he's probably just a powerful sorcerer (and I know that The Pillars bestow longevity of life on their gaurdians).
Besides the Hylden aren't demons anymore than the vampires.

Umah Bloodomen
29th Oct 2002, 05:09
Originally posted by Shadow Man
Kain could not be refering to the demons outside Avernus Cathedral because he says that he has fought of these before, so he is probably refering to Hash'ak'gik, because Kain doesn't know that The Sarafan Lord is a demon yet. I know you're going to say 'but how could he have lived for over 200 years so...', and the answer is that the Pillar Gaurdians lived for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years, and The Sarafan Lord is in human disguise, so to Kain he's probably just a powerful sorcerer (and I know that The Pillars bestow longevity of life on their gaurdians).
Besides the Hylden aren't demons anymore than the vampires.

What? You totally lost me here.

You need to consider that Avernus also burned to the ground roughly 400 years prior to the events of BO2 (after Kain awakens in Meridian).

Kain refers to the Sarafan Lord as a "demon" early in the game when he says:


Originally spoken by Kain following Umah's rescue
No! Release Me! That demon filth is mine!

We already know that The Sarafan Lord has existed for at least a millenia. There is plenty of indication that The Sarafan Lord was alive and kicking during the original Hylden banishment by the Ancient race. No one is questioning his life span. I highly doubt Kain believed the Sarafan Lord was ever a sorcerer, he appeared pretty set in his conviction of TSL being a demon right from the start. It is clear though, that Kain doesn't know "the whole story" about TSL and/or the Ancient/Hylden war and isn't even given insight into that until he meets with Janos Audron later on.

What does the Pillars have to do with the longevity of TSL? Oh yeah, that's right, nothing. The Ancients cursed them to become the demon race. TSL merely stated that their new form and their demonic dimension (which the Ancients banished them to) ensured their immortality. Not the Pillars, my friend.

And where did you get the notion of TSL being in a human disguise? <sarcasm> I must not have that part in my version of BO2.</sarcasm> He never looked human, nor did he pass himself off as human. And as I pointed out, Kain never thought of him as human.

keepittrue
30th Oct 2002, 01:30
I know where he got the human disguise and frankly I like his argument, but I like yours too Umah, he was refering to the SL disguising himself as a sarafan. I cant remember if Kain said one demon or not but both of you make Valid points I'll be back with my final answer later. I need to check the dialogue.

Umah Bloodomen
30th Oct 2002, 04:57
I would've been less likely to dispute his response had he phrased it as a "Sarafan disguise". I fully agree that TSL reinstated the Sarafan Order and took control of it as it's leader in order to gain the support of the humans. That still isn't the same as actually disguising himself as a human though.

Umah Bloodomen
30th Oct 2002, 05:28
I checked the quote in the script. Vorador, when he mentions the "demons" is referring to the demons in the canyons area (near the Seer's abode). Kain's response was a classic example of his cynical/sarcastic nature and most likely meant the Sarafan Lord for sure.


Originally spoken by Vorador near the end of Chapter 6
There is a secret way out of the city. I will show it to you. You may follow a canyon that leads north to her abode. The way will not be easy. Strange beasts roam outside the city preying on travellers. The people call them demons.


Originally spoken by Kain, in response to Vorador's above statement
I believe I've met one of these already. I hope your Seer's knowledge is worth the risk.

Now the reason why I don't think Kain refers to Hash'ak'gik when this "demon" discussion arises, is for the mere fact that very few references to BO1 are actually made in BO2. (The collapse of the Pillars, mist form and beguile, as well as mention of Vorador's execution are the exceptions). Hash was only touched on in BO1 and hadn't/hasn't been fully explored yet, which doesn't justify simply mentioning him out of the blue especially after 400 years of no activity by Hash anywhere in Nosgoth. (That we currently know of). This of course could be altered upon the release of SR3 (if we are further enlightened to Hash'ak'gik).

Shadow Man
31st Oct 2002, 20:47
I think that when Kain calls the SarafanLord a demon, he uses it as a figure of speach/an insult, and that he means the Sarafan Lord is unnatural.

As well I meant that The Pillars gave the Guardians long life, so something else could've gave the Sarafan Lor it, in Kains point of view, Nosgoth is a big(and magical) world.

Umah Bloodomen
31st Oct 2002, 21:07
And I already stated that coming straight from TSL's mouth, that the Hylden banishment to the demon dimension was what ensured their (and his own) immortality.

keepittrue
2nd Nov 2002, 02:17
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
I checked the quote in the script. Vorador, when he mentions the "demons" is referring to the demons in the canyons area (near the Seer's abode). Kain's response was a classic example of his cynical/sarcastic nature and most likely meant the Sarafan Lord for sure.





Now the reason why I don't think Kain refers to Hash'ak'gik when this "demon" discussion arises, is for the mere fact that very few references to BO1 are actually made in BO2. (The collapse of the Pillars, mist form and beguile, as well as mention of Vorador's execution are the exceptions). Hash was only touched on in BO1 and hadn't/hasn't been fully explored yet, which doesn't justify simply mentioning him out of the blue especially after 400 years of no activity by Hash anywhere in Nosgoth. (That we currently know of). This of course could be altered upon the release of SR3 (if we are further enlightened to Hash'ak'gik).


Agreed

Umah Bloodomen
2nd Nov 2002, 02:20
Originally posted by keepittrue



Agreed

I'm having a heart attack. :p ;)

Shadow Man
3rd Nov 2002, 17:19
But still if you think about it, when Kain says
I BELIEVE I have met one of these before(the BELIEVE is emphasized), he could be talking about Hash'ak'gik, but isn't actually sure it happened because of his memory lose.

As well, about the small ammount of references the Blood
Omen 1, this could be another exception along with the others, like mist.

And I know the banishment makes the Sarafan Lord immortal, I just meant in Kain's point of view(he doesn't know that yet)

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Nov 2002, 20:18
The "believe" isn't over-emphasized anymore than the rest of the statement.


Besides, I can forsee myself taking a stab at old topics here shortly now that it has been discovered that BO2 occurs on a altertnate timeline.

a74gh83
9th Nov 2002, 09:41
small correction
since we now know that bo2 is in the altered timeline, its not clear if vorador was executed. it does explain his presence in bo2.
and i'd just like to say that if anyone is gonna refer to the events of bo1, the basic plotline is probably the same, but there could be changes in it due to the time altering in sr2
as for the demon kain met, he met the SL before hand. demons start roaming the land after kain is defeated and the sl is in power, assumption is made by Kain demon influences the growth of other demon. those that r similar stick together and prosper by surviving
something along those lines

Umah Bloodomen
9th Nov 2002, 19:25
BO1's plotline is the same until we see other wise. Even if anything changed in the original game is touched on, we won't know how it affects the game until BO1 itself is remade.

Take Star Wars for example, Lucas has decided to shoot extra footage of the new stories/characters etc. to put in the old movies after the new trilogy is released.

The same could happen here with a redesigned BO game which better ties events in. (But not until after the series is drawn to an end).

Shadow Man
9th Nov 2002, 21:12
Originally posted by a74gh83
As for the demon kain met, he met the SL before hand. demons start roaming the land after kain is defeated and the sl is in power, assumption is made by Kain demon influences the growth of other demon. Those that r similar stick together and prosper by surviving
something along those lines

I'm sorry I don't know what you mean here, but demons were around long before Kain was even born.

a74gh83
10th Nov 2002, 03:49
yes there were demons around
but if u didn't notice later on that the 'demons' i the canyon are 'hylden made'
now the SL had a greenish glow thingy, Kain obviously knew he wasn't a human, or a vamp. Next possible assumption, put on the broad label demon
as it so happened the 'demons' had a green glow, so Kain was justified in saying he had met one before
as for the events of bo1, doesn't it strike u a bit odd that there is a vamp army in bo2. 500 years after the corruption of the pillars Kain had raised his lieutants. the end of bo2 is 600 years after the corruption of the pillars, and theres vamp raised from the blood gift way. taking that into account, how could there be after Moebius's vampire purge? simple, no purge. For all we know future Kain somehow fixed things so the nemesis never ruled, yet william wasn't a martyred saint. just thoughts on the changes. but since things r very different to what we knew, there must have been some changes in bo

Umah Bloodomen
10th Nov 2002, 03:59
BO2 occurs within 400 years after BO1 not 500 or 600. The first 200 (where we witness the opening FMV to BO2) and when Kain goes comatose. The second 200 years, is when BO2 takes place.

Where are there vamps raised by the bite 600 years after BO1?


Taking into account that BO2 is an altered timeline, then I am willing to believe there was possibly no Moebius driven vampire purge (which we saw in BO1 after Vorador's execution). But we witnessed the beginnings of the original purge in SR2 driven by the Sarafan. There has been no evidence that has shown us otherwise yet. Until SR3 comes out, there's no way this can be determined as fact.

a74gh83
10th Nov 2002, 05:01
i seem to have been mistaken. thank you Umah for correcting the time line


But we witnessed the beginnings of the original purge in SR2 driven by the Sarafan. There has been no evidence that has shown us otherwise yet. Until SR3 comes out, there's no way this can be determined as fact.

? I don't know what u mean by this. after the death of the 6 sarafan lieutants i always assumed that the Sarafan purged stopped, i doubt that has changed.
All i'm saying is that withsomethings in BO1 we don't know if the plot has remained/changed. For all we know some of the guardians Kain killed might have been killed earlier. Perhaps Malik was killed, perhaps Moebius. Mortanius couldn't as Kain still exists. In all honesty there are only a few things that we know for certain couldn't have changed.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Nov 2002, 05:18
There were 2 purges is what I am saying. One occuring at the time of SR2 (in the past more specifically - and the more violent) and one during BO1 after William the Just was struck down by Kain (lead by Moebius).

Moebius lead the citizen massacre against vampires, and the reformed Sarafan Order got in on the act.

As far as what you are saying about BO1, some of the guardians could not have been killed earlier. SR2 more than implied that. Six of the guardians still fell to Vorador in the stronghold. Malek didn't die at the same time because we knew where he was during the slaughter (as we also knew where Moebius was - right beside him). Mortanius we have no idea where he even was to begin with. As for the others (Ariel, Nupraptor, Azimuth, Dejoule, Bane and Anacrothe) these people didn't even exist until after the other six were slaugthered. (Which is when they were born).

There is no evidence to support the plotline change of BO1 at this point. As I stated twice now, until some evidence appears in SR3 or BO3 then I believe that its safe to assume nothing has changed.

a74gh83
10th Nov 2002, 06:16
all i'm saying that between the end of sr2, and the raising of Kain's lieutenants, some changes could have happened.
evidence? Vorador is alive. i tink thats a real important plotline change. Kain has no reason to raise his lieutenants, until of course Vorador annoyance with Umahs death.


Moebius lead the citizen massacre against vampires, and the reformed Sarafan Order got in on the act.

? I don't recall the sarafan ever being reformed in the original timeline during or after bo1


As far as what you are saying about BO1, some of the guardians could not have been killed earlier. SR2 more than implied that. Six of the guardians still fell to Vorador in the stronghold. Malek didn't die at the same time because we knew where he was during the slaughter (as we also knew where Moebius was - right beside him). Mortanius we have no idea where he even was to begin with. As for the others (Ariel, Nupraptor, Azimuth, Dejoule, Bane and Anacrothe) these people didn't even exist until after the other six were slaugthered. (Which is when they were born).

All i'm saying is that Raziel and Kain are alive, and so some future trangressions could have been avoided. Eliminate Moebius, no purge. Eliminate Malek, no need for Vorador till later. I guess it would be hard for kain to do this without a paradox, so i ask, do u tink that the amount of Raziel's soul that was sucked by the Reaver will infact stay there and leave it as the soul reaver, just weaker than before.

Umah Bloodomen
10th Nov 2002, 06:30
Originally posted by a74gh83
all i'm saying that between the end of sr2, and the raising of Kain's lieutenants, some changes could have happened.
evidence? Vorador is alive. i tink thats a real important plotline change. Kain has no reason to raise his lieutenants, until of course Vorador annoyance with Umahs death.

Look, you completely aren't acknowledging the fact BO2 occurs on a totally seperate timeline due to the events in SR2. This was confirmed by Amy Hennig herself. Vorador is alive because its a different line than what BO1/SR1 and parts of SR2 occur on. (Hence the change in plot). I've mentioned this how many times already? :rolleyes:

Kain has a reason to raise the liutenants, Vorador won't make anymore vampires and the species is threatened. What better irony than to rasie the beings responsible? Kain is always ironic, this was bittersweet to him. After BO1, technically Kain was the last one left and couldn't reproduce. Then he found out how.



Originally posted by a74gh83
? I don't recall the sarafan ever being reformed in the original timeline during or after bo1


All i'm saying is that Raziel and Kain are alive, and so some future trangressions could have been avoided. Eliminate Moebius, no purge. Eliminate Malek, no need for Vorador till later. I guess it would be hard for kain to do this without a paradox, so i ask, do u tink that the amount of Raziel's soul that was sucked by the Reaver will infact stay there and leave it as the soul reaver, just weaker than before.

The Sarafan order wasn't ever as predominant as it was during SR2. With all the anti-vampire crusades, some of the members regrouped. I believe they were slightly mentioned in BO1.

The purges were already in effect in the past of SR2, it was the Circle of Nine as a whole who initiated the crudsades. Vorador still took out 6 of the guardians 500 years prior to BO1. He didn't kill Malek until 30 years after that. Again the paradox occurs because there is one thing (Raziel) split into two pieces and interacting with each other. Eventually all of Raziel's soul will end up in the reaver, that is afterall, his destiny...

Anubis_Orr
10th Nov 2002, 09:45
He didn't kill Malek until 30 years after that

530 years after that :p

Also there wasn't a need to reinstitute the Sarafan, Moebius culled the fear of the people of Nosgoth and formed them into an army driven by their fear of vampires and Moebius' (no doubt) disinformation/propaganda

Umah Bloodomen
10th Nov 2002, 09:59
If you re-read half the things in this, you will understand why I broke it up that way.

a74gh83
10th Nov 2002, 10:11
Look, you completely aren't acknowledging the fact BO2 occurs on a totally seperate timeline due to the events in SR2. This was confirmed by Amy Hennig herself. Vorador is alive because its a different line than what BO1/SR1 and parts of SR2 occur on. (Hence the change in plot). I've mentioned this how many times already?

how am i not acknowledging the fact that bo2 is not on a seperate timeline
vorador is alive, and i said because the Moeubius purge didn't occur, which is totally different from the original, which has resulted from sr2.
now lets talk about history and how it abhors a paradox. i'm taking a wild guess here, that u tink i ain't acknowledging because of the raised lieutenants. and if not i'll just get this straight, the lieutenants r raised, cause if they weren't Raziel wouldn't exist at the end of sr2.

now thank u, i didn't now about the sarafan existing, just less dominant

and as for a totally different timeline, we don't know that. we know Janos is alive, Vorador is alive and there are vamps. We don't know how the events of bo1 are changed, so the general plot might be the same. I've lost track of what i was originally saying, but i tink it was that we should try to minimize reference to bo1 to discuss things in bo2. Which does display that i am acknowledging it is in a seperate timeline.

i'm sorry if a sound a bit... defensive, but i started replying just to say that we shouldn't refer to bo1 to explain bo2, because it is a different timeline and now i'm suddenly being told i;m not acknowledging its in a different timeline

Darakari
10th Nov 2002, 23:08
I think Raziel being sucked into the reaver was never supposed to happen. I think it caused a temporal distortion resulting in a never-ending loop that would keep Raziel alive forever. This was time's way of "flowing around the pebble cast into the river" and keeping Raziel alive so that he could eventually be freed from this never ending cycle. Kain discovered the never-ending cycle and realized Raziel's true destiny, hence his statement about "we have always met here". Kain realized that events would continue to repeat until he could find the "edge of the coin". Pulling the blade away from Raziel is the first step toward helping Raziel realize and fulfill his true destiny. But the temporal distortions needed to fix time completely are still not finished, hence the reason why the soul reaver is still attached to Raziel's arm. My quess is that SR3 will be about Kain helping Raziel understand and fulfill his true destiny, thus freeing him from the eternal curse of forever becoming the soul reaver blade.