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Deadfall
17th Oct 2002, 01:22
Lord Burkhard is a small german FM, and im a little confused on whether I busted a ghost or not. At the bottom of the mansion is a prison area with a few servants in jail cells who are totally blind but they can hear. At the far end of the prison is a guard who attacks this noble and kills him. I have replayed this mission a few times, and he always starts attacking the noble when I enter the prison area. This attack alerts the prisoners and everyone starts searching around. The guard searches around after he has killed the noble as well. My objective is to kill the guard, however, and after everyone calms down, I'm able to sneak up behind the guard, blackjack him, and kill him at another area.

In my opinion, this circumstance might be similar to T1's "Undercover", except it might even be more permissible. I didn't alert the AI; the guard did. Am I wrong and is this a bust?

Old Man
17th Oct 2002, 01:58
I am reminded of the Lady Van Vernon and Master Willy archers in Thief II's "Life of the Party." They patiently await Garrett's approach to begin their argument and fight. This is not a Ghost Mode bust.

I haven't played this FM but from your description the two situations seem to share the Garrett proximity trigger. Yes, IMHO, it is Garrett that causes the alerts. But only by his movement. Not by pulling a switch or using a weapon or some other action or by being seen or heard. Is there another route that can be used to get at the guard? In LotP there is a route that avoids the archers altogether. I've sometimes used this alternate route even though it breaks the Ghost Mode no property damage rule just to get at the archers without triggering the fight or to avoid that area completely.

I've always had difficulty with this situation. I see no difference between Garrett's movement actions and weapons use. Both are actions Garrett chooses to do. One is acceptable. The others aren't. Just the way it is, I guess.

Peter_Smith
17th Oct 2002, 02:09
In my opinion you are good to go. You had nothing to do with it. It is a scripted event that must be triggered to complete the game. I liken it more to the situation with grabbing the eye in Return to the Cathedral, which has been ruled OK. You do something that does not in itself cause the results, directly or indirectly - it is caused only by the script.

I have a more difficult question, which I posed in a recent ghost report of Wakling the Edge. I think that the alert of a guard is a scripted event that occurs when I kill a guy (a mission objective), not because he heard me do it but because the script itself alerts him. But I can't prove it.:) My belief stems from the fact that he does not hear at all well with the door open, but other guards do hear well. Yet when I wait for him to go some distance away, close the door, and kill the guy he alone "hears" it but other, better-hearing guards don't.

Anyone have any comments on that one?:)

EDIT: Well, I see we have a dissenting opinion by Old Man, whose opition counts for a lot. We need some others like Clayman or Sneak, both rules experts, to chime in. Scirpted events are not handled explicitly by the rules as they stand.

Deadfall
17th Oct 2002, 03:04
Yes, LotP and RTC are better examples. Thanks for your opinions.

I just played this mission again. It's very small but I am forced to play Ironman+Ghost because each time I try and load a save, I'm kicked to desktop. But I did play this a few more times, and each replay I was moving faster through the mission. I went down into the prison area again and noticed that the guard did not try and kill the noble. I snuck behind him and to my astonishment, the noble was already dead and everyone was calm. So I don't know what to say about this. Did I hit a proximity trigger when I was above him in the mansion? Or maybe its a timer? But that wouldn't make sense because I arrived at the prison earlier than in my previous games.

I guess this doesn't matter though, because I was still able to blackjack the guard, carry him away from the prison and kill him to complete my objective.

clayman
18th Oct 2002, 22:05
At the risk of having a simple ruling from me getting picked completely apart by others, I say the following : If the proximity trigger must be triggered to complete the mission, then you have definitely not busted the Ghost. :)

However, my overall ruling of hard-wired triggers is that they are for the most part just a function of the game and are outside the parameters of Ghosting. Debating triggers of this type are no different conceptually than the alarm trigger in Undercover when the talisman is taken. And then, AI are alerted. We've already ruled that that situation is not a bust, so I don't see how there's any debate at all to have over a simple conversation trigger that doesn't alert AI in the process. To go down this path.....ugh, there are conversations all throughout the game that we would be required to totally re-think the mission and its gameplay just to make two AI stand still and not talk. No thanks. :)

Ask yourself the basics of Ghosting and you rarely go wrong : "Was I seen ? Was I heard ?" :)

Peter - In your scenario, my first impression is to say you are busted and are playing an unGhostable mission. But since I haven't played the mission you refer to, I'll defer to any another Ghoster who's had on-the-job-training in that FM. :)

Sneak
19th Oct 2002, 17:32
Deadfall,
I have not played this FM either. However from what you are saying above, it looks like you are good to go. Seems to me you hit one of those Welcome Zones that starts what we have been calling a Script. You did nothing on pupose to start the fight, it just happens when you hit a certain spot. As long as you yourself come out of the melee and searching Unseen and Unheard, no problem. No Bust as I see it.

A Bust would be like you leading one AI into the view of another one and then they fight. That would actually be two Busts. You would have to be seen or heard to lead one AI to another and also you are resposible for a fight which may not otherwise have happened.

If you did something like toss a pot out which caused two opposing AI to hear it and search for you and run into each other anf then fight, 3 Busts. 1: they heard you and were alerted, 2: You used a distraction, 3: you are responsible for the fight.

My examples are hypothetical but am sure you see what I am getting at.

I don't think you are Busted and as Clayman pointed out, this fits with previous senarios that we ruled as No Bust.

Go Get Em! :)