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View Full Version : FM: The Cistern...Final version



Gumdrop
12th Oct 2002, 23:38
Well, to stop all the head scratching, I have gone back over The Cistern with my trusty iron and smoothed out a number of bumps. The mission is now much more playable and has a new little area to explore. So if you fancy a spot of sewer skulking, you can download (7.48 megs) it here (http://bluntedtaffer.50megs.com/Missions/cist.zip). :)

Nightwalker
13th Oct 2002, 00:42
Terrific, Gummie! I liked the first version a lot, but it was rather difficult in several spots. I really want to try the new version. You have a knack for taking simple little ideas and making them into really good FMs that are fun to play! Thanks. :)

Huntress
13th Oct 2002, 20:42
Thanks from me also Gummie...I got it right after you put your post up but fell asleep while it was downloading and didn't get back to tell you. I did get it on my other puter but now I guess I should put it on this one as well just for the heck of it. I have my burner on this one mainly so I can eventually add it to my backups :) Ta and Good Hunting!

Peter_Smith
14th Oct 2002, 00:04
Thanks, Gummie.:) Somehow I missed it when it first came out. I downloaded it and played it last night. Very fine mission. It was a little tricky, but after just playing Shadow of Doubt it was a piece of cake. I attempted to ghost it, but I gave up in the zombie area. The patrols are a little heavy in there. It may still be posslble, but I didn't have the patience last night.:)

Gumdrop
14th Oct 2002, 12:12
Originally posted by Peter Smith
Somehow I missed it when it first came out.

It is good that you did. ;)

Oh and the whole mission is ghostable, although the tomb requires a little bit of luck.

Thanks for playing peep's. :)

Peter_Smith
14th Oct 2002, 23:03
OK, inspired by the possibility, I reloaded on entry to the mausoleum, and I ghosted / perfected the mission.:) The report is here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=83100#post83100).

Huntress
15th Oct 2002, 02:37
:eek: Ohhh noooo...you said the "word"! Zombies...???? Oh heavens to mergatroid...I hope I'm gonna have a good supply of water arrows and holy water Gums? I hope also that it's not going to be that difficult for me to get through there cause as you should know by now...this is not my fav kind of mission. I'll certainly give it a try but only time will tell if I can manage it or not. Appreciate your efforts though to do some fix'ms up for the ppl's and hopefully I'll be able to play it through! :) Ta and Good Hunting!

Peter_Smith
15th Oct 2002, 03:20
Don't panic Huntress.:D There are not too many zombies, and they are easy to maneuver around. They are a little problem to ghost, that's all.

Gumdrop
15th Oct 2002, 12:44
Originally posted by Peter Smith
Fog effects give it a monotone appearance.

I'm pleased somebody picked up on this, as it's something I have been experimenting with. By using a limited palette and subtle fogging, I hoped to give it a very individual look. The mini campaign I am working on uses the same technique, so I hope it will help unify the whole thing...even though the locations are very different. :)

Holy water gums Huntress?! :eek: What's next I wonder....Magical Marnier bombs? :D

Cheers and fair cadaver stalking! ;)

Huntress
15th Oct 2002, 21:46
LMAO Gummie..."Holy water gums..or is it guns?" :) Now that's an idea...Water guns! Right up my style for those creeps :D

Thanks Peter for the reassurances too ;) Well at least on my Compaq with the VD3 I should be able to get the affects Gums tried to get working :) Too bad my ATI doesn't :( even though it's supposed to!

I shall get it running soon to check it out. Ta and Good Hunting!

Sneak
18th Oct 2002, 16:12
Ohh Gummy,
Played the mission and have not commented until now. Actually I played the first one and not the new one yet. Thanks for the mission. Some of those jumps reminded me of.........of........Toomerator! ;) A bit precarious! Yes I played some of the Toomerator games.

A question for ya! ;)

When you press that button that does your Teleportation routine and fills the room with water. I have run out and looked at the Bug Beasts. They are dead, not waving around in the throes of dying. They are dead. What exactly did you do there or what exactly happens? Details please! ;)

The answer may not matter in the scheme of things but I need to make a post and would like the info first. Bet you can't guess where I need to post! HA! :D

Deadfall
18th Oct 2002, 17:10
Ah yes, Sneak. I'd like to get your opinion on that subject.

Gumdrop
18th Oct 2002, 23:00
Originally posted by Sneak
Bet you can't guess where I need to post! HA! :D

Haha...Yes, quite a debate, but it's good to see that people do still have a real passion for the game...and ghosting.

Well it's teleportation plain and simple. Two sets of Bug Beasts to give the illusion of drowning (or if you have already killed them; the illusion of the flowing water carring them into the corner). I placed the junk that gets washed out in a way that makes it look like it is flowing to the same corner.

If you think of it another way, it's no different than any other mission that uses teleportation. Garrett teleports from A to B, and it just so happens that B has a dead body in it. Nothing has changed...the player did not kill the beasts - even by his actions. They have always been dead. The only difference in this case is the illusion. That's my take on it. :)

Now go give them ghosters h3ll...You's the daddy! :D

Sneak
18th Oct 2002, 23:37
Originally posted by Gumdrop


Now go give them ghosters h3ll...You's the daddy! :D

Whaaa......It wasn't me, I'm not the Daddy! I didn't do NEthing, honest! Blame it on Clayman he started all this stuff anyway. So let him be the Daddy! All I did was jump on the wagon to try and drive it places no Wagon should go! ;) HAHAHA


Let me get this straight, you teleported us to a place where there were Pre-Dead Bugbeasts washed into a corner? Shame on you!HAHAHA LMAO...TOOOO funny! :D

littlek
1st Sep 2003, 21:44
I am stuck with Gumdrop's FM, The Cistern, playing on Expert. I think it must be the revised version because I did not sustain damage in areas that I had read about in other posts I found using search. Here are the stats:

I got the hand of glory but cannot end the game because I am short 200 in loot.

There is a door that I am unable to get open. It is in the room where a bugbeast guards the Gate Control key. There are 2 other bug beasts that patrol an area outside this room with metal floor plates. I am hoping the 200 in loot is in there. Any advice? Gummie?

Vanguard
2nd Sep 2003, 05:09
Without doing a search for the thread, I think Peter or maybe someone else said they had ghosted it. I then questioned if the dead bugbeasts didn't bust the ghost. A lot of the discussion circled around the teleportation event which was designed not to look like you teleported but rather was a means of moving from map 1 to map 2. The player wouldn't know teleportation was used (and until the author said so, most were just guessing) and they aren't required to know how FMs are designed, the use of scripts or boundary triggers, configurable attributes of AIs, and all that detailed dromed stuff.

There was a long argument over how it was done rather than how it is played. Some arguments would claim they were different bugbeasts washed in from the sewers and that the original ones had already left despite how fast you ran from the overhang to go push the button and run back. I saw no teleportation so no teleportation occured in the *play* of the game. I don't care how it is *designed* or coded. When you blink, the room you are in before you blinked is not a different room after you blink. To the *player*, there was no teleportation. Yes, there was a jerk. Does that mean when I am playing Shipping and Receiving in T2 that all that the jerkiness in the game is not due to a high polygon count exceeding the processing capability of my system but instead it was a humungous number of teleportations? The interpretation of how a game *plays* is how you experience it as a player, not as the programmer. To the player, there was no teleportation.

In some other FMs, you walk up to a door, open it, and upon entering the totally black area beyond then that mission part ends. The next mission part starts with you on the other side of the door. That was how the author transitioned you from one mission part to the next. The perception is that you walked through the door and now you're on the other side. The teleportation in the Cistern was another means of transitioning the user through the mission.

Your action doesn't eliminate your responsibility for the effect. You see a drawbridge with people standing at the other end waiting to cross over. You run far off to throw a lever to lower the drawbridge. By the time you get back to the drawbridge, you find a slew of bodies are crushed underneath it. You opened the drawbridge. You killed them. You don't lower the drawbridge, they're still alive. Do this they die, do that and they continue as before. Yeah, you could come up with dozens of alternate explanations to escape the obvious one to avoid responsibility.

I say Cistern is unghostable because you killed the bugbeasts. Others say otherwise. Hopefully when T3 comes out, us taffers won't have a clue as to how anything is done in the mission (for awhile) so we don't get into how the FM did it technically to determine if a ghost was busted or not. In the end I don't think anyone convinced anyone else which way was right. I play games and my perception was based on that. Someone who designs games might have a different perception, because they know how they did it but I don't. It did steel in my mind, however, that you cannot play foot loose and fancy free with interpreting the objectives. You should only do what the objective says and not infer anything else. You aren't allowed to break the ghost rules unless explicitly excused in the objective. If the objective didn't provide you an out for the ghost rules, there wasn't an out.

I remember another mission where an objective said to get a vase. In was in big vault inside of a crate. The only way to get the vase was to smash the crate it was in. Taking the crate with the vase inside and carrying it around did not complete the objective. You have to frob the vase to put it into inventory. The objective only said to the get the vase. Smashing the crate was property damage and busted the ghost. Not getting the vase would bust the ghost (since you are required to complete all non-optional objectives). There was no way to play the FM without busting your ghost. It happens with FMs. In Cistern, you end up killing a couple bugbeasts if you want to continue playing the mission. Some FMs are just not ghostable. So you ghost what you can and have fun with it all.

It's not surprising that lots of FMs are unghostable. The FM should be designed to be fun without regard to ghostability. The callenge of ghosting is trying to do something that normally cannot be done. But don't make excuses if you find out that it really cannot be done. Cistern is an enjoyable FM *despite* it being ghostable or not.

littlek
2nd Sep 2003, 12:45
Thanks for replying Vanguard. I am not ghosting this. It is not my style of playing. So maybe I am playing on hard.

I never experienced a sensation of teleportation. I just thought the cistern filled up with water rather quickly and that the two bugbeasts were the same two that were creeping around in there earlier. The particulars as to where these bugbeasts came from do not matter to me. I just want to complete the game.

Nightwalker
2nd Sep 2003, 13:20
I think you'll find that if you go through the room where you find the Gate Control key and through the passageway to the next room, you'll be in the room behind that locked door. I never found a way to unlock the door itself, though.

I also didn't find all the loot but enough to complete the mission on Expert. I presume you've been all the way to the end of the mission and you're still short loot. Did you find the secrets? If not, you'll find loot in them.

In the final crypt area, there's a room with a pond in the middle. Check the east side of the pond wall for a lever. It moves a statue back. Go into the hole and look up.

For the second one, there's a lever on the side of a coffin along one of the hallways. The rest is basically the same as above.

Did you find the necklace IN the pond mentioned above? Also, there's a purse lying by a pile of bones at the bottom of the first rope you climb down on your way to these crypts.

If none of these give you enough, let me know and I'll do up a list of the loot I found for you. :)

littlek
2nd Sep 2003, 14:20
Ah Gummie hid those levers well. He is the Trickster reincarnated. Thanks for your help NW. I never would have found those levers on my own. It was a fun FM, full of Gummisms. Now I can start "The Art of Thievery."

Nightwalker
2nd Sep 2003, 16:16
You'll love AoT. It's beautiful and great fun to explore. If you want to see the entire mansion, though you should play on Expert or at least Hard. You get into most of it on that setting. Enjoy!

Gumdrop
7th Sep 2003, 00:13
Vanguard - I thaught it was decided the Cistern was ghostable? ;D

Originally posted by littlek
...full of Gummisms. :confused:

*flicks through dictionary*

:confused: