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Cthulhu666
3rd Oct 2002, 15:59
Something is fishy in the land of Nosgoth. In the SR1 we get to see all vampire liutenants before and after Raziel´s fall (except Turel, of course). We can clearly see how they turned from strappy soldiers to mildly grotesque creatures that have to be hunted down and killed. What I´m getting at is this: What happened to Kain to stop his evolution/deevolution and why did he remain exactly the same as in the intro? Perhaps his changes were more subtle and didn´t reflect on the surface? If this has already been discussed could someone please gimme a link.

Reaver of Souls
3rd Oct 2002, 23:12
.. I believe this has been discussed and there was never a really concrete answer for it.
Some people thought he simply hid his new gifts, or was able to conceal them, and not have his physical form change.
Others thought at some point in time he simply stopped evolving all together.
I'm sure people have opinions on this, and I'm only answering because I know how frustrating it is to see that so many people have looked at your thread but no one bothered to take the time to give their opinion.

Naja
3rd Oct 2002, 23:13
*I care! I just got out of school, though.*

*this is a crazy/weird/unplausable idea...but hear me out...*

Maybe Kain didn't evolve because since he found the chronoplast chamber apparently not too long after Raziel was cast into the abyss, that he used the information and tools he found there to his advantage. Well, since his empire was already ruined - the land diseased, lost a liutenant, and all the trouble caused by those factors - he decided to leave it behind and use the chronoplast chamber to transport himself to the exact time that he needed to be to greet Raziel.

I think this makes some sense; it explains why his appearance didn't change and why the empire went to hell - liutenants....yeah, and the corrupted, dying world that there's no sense in ruling. Once he saw the future in the chamber, unless there was something he had to stick around for, it would make sense he wouldn't waste his time waiting for Raziel to come back and simply to forward in time to when he was needed.

There are also theories that Kain's evolution is at the point where his appearance no longer changes but his power increases. That makes sense, too. I just prefer that he used the time machine since : it was there, and there's nothing else worth staying around for if you already knew that ruling the land is pointless now.

Of course, Kain may have stayed around... I don't know. It would help if we knew what was up with Turel. It would help A LOT of things if we knew what was up with Turel.

.....okay, I'm done babbling now. Thank you for your time that I wasted.:rolleyes: ;)

PS: sorry... I don't know where this thread was... but it is around here somewhere. Or was it at another forum...:confused: sorry.

garbagefanuk
4th Oct 2002, 00:12
Umm if thats true that Kain used the Chronoplast to move to the future to greet raziel then where is the future Kain? He should be Skulking around somewhere.

I just think that Kain reached his peak. Like Vorador and Janos (if Janos even evolves)

That or Crystal never wanted to change Kain to much, they already changed him for SR, no need to change him again just cos its a few millennia later

Naja
4th Oct 2002, 06:23
(You're joking about your subject, right? You do know why the sword broke, right? I hope so.)

The way I see it, if Kain went to the future, then there would be no evolved Kain to see; Kain as a being would not have been around long enough to evolve. If someone were to go into the future, then that means that their present self would no longer exist at least up to the point that they had transported themselves to. I mean, Kain would be in the future, not hanging around in the present waiting for the future to unfurl itself - he just simply would not have been around. Get it?....I know my explanation didn't really help....but I tried....:(

Cthulhu666
4th Oct 2002, 07:15
I'm sure people have opinions on this, and I'm only answering because I know how frustrating it is to see that so many people have looked at your thread but no one bothered to take the time to give their opinion.
Well... thanx for the attention. ;)
So there was a thread about it somewhere, eh? Guess I´ll have to dig myself into these forums and find it somewhere among the secrets of the past.

Power reaver
4th Oct 2002, 14:24
I think Kain increased in magic . Do you remember that in SR in the chronoplast , before Kain and Raz battle , Kain says :

"And Now you await my latest move !"

That kind points out that Kain did stay in Nosgoth that many years when Raziel was gone . Also it says that Kain evolved , and developed a new attack . The dailog has many ways to it (like everything else in Nosgoth) and I stated the most obvious (in my opinion) .

Also if Kain was gone for all these years wouldent Dumah take over ? Seeing how powerful he was and how unloyal he was to Kain , he would probably take over Nosgoth .

Time Streamer
4th Oct 2002, 16:28
I believe Kain didn't devolve since he's still more or less the embodiment of the Pillar of Balance. That alone sustains him even if the land and his vampire children decay.

garbagefanuk
4th Oct 2002, 19:17
Originally posted by Naja
(You're joking about your subject, right? You do know why the sword broke, right? I hope so.)

The way I see it, if Kain went to the future, then there would be no evolved Kain to see; Kain as a being would not have been around long enough to evolve. If someone were to go into the future, then that means that their present self would no longer exist at least up to the point that they had transported themselves to. I mean, Kain would be in the future, not hanging around in the present waiting for the future to unfurl itself - he just simply would not have been around. Get it?....I know my explanation didn't really help....but I tried....:(

Yes i am joking and course i know why it broke silly person. Been playing the LoK series long enough to figure it out.

Anywayz to answer u. If u jumped to the future there would still be a future self there IF u go back to ur original time and i'm really assuming Kain doesn't die here cos i like him :) but he goes to future and a future Kain will be there unless they change the past to alter the future, then Kain mite not be there... if that makes sense :)

Naja
4th Oct 2002, 23:34
(the whole time-dealy is so confusing, I confuse myself while writing about it)

Well, the way I see it, if you were to go into the future you would be jumping out of the time steam/loop/whatever you wanna call it, and a future version of yourself would not exist - keeping in mind that our futures are predestined and the introduction of a paradox would not allow us to meet another version of ourselves.

However, if there are multiple paths/destinies to choose from, if you were to travel to the future, you could possibly have landed one of the destinies where you didn't originally take the journey to the future - so you would have aged with time and existed for your present self to see your future self.

Or if our futures have already occured/predestined, then that means that you would be creating a paradox by going to the future and therefore would be able to see your future self.

Now do you see where my logic comes from?...if not just ignore me.....:p

Morte
5th Oct 2002, 01:11
Interesting question, and a very complicated one.
The theory of him time travelling to avoid the effects of evolution is rendered invalid here, since this is something that is part of his own physical self, therefore ingrained in his very existence.
About him travelling into exact future to meet raziel; that is highly unlikely, since in that case I think more clues pointing to it would be in game, while in reality this is not even hinted.
There are, however, some other points to consider:

First, we must not forget that Kain was brought into undeath in different manner than his sons, and their legions, that alone could have played an important factor.
He was "created" in a more "spiritual" manner, that is to say the process of soul returning to his body was more magical in nature.
Of course, when he created his liutenants he had to use magic as well, but I suspect he also used something to physically implement the magic, a part of himself, therefore creating a bond of sorts.
I don't know the details of that, though.
So perhaps his "unbirth" into the physical realm was "cleaner" than that of his sons, minimising the devolutionary changes and differently affecting his physical growth and changes.

Second, he is a balance guardian, after all, and this status alone brings many benefits, very likely contributing to his unique state as well.
We know that human balance guardians get the benefit of prolonged life, and perhaps some other things as well, but that is just speculation.
There is also the corruption of pillars and subsequently, their guardians, so the influence of his station as a guardian in this manner is quite complex, I gather.

And third, he seems to be quite a powerful wizard himself, the magic he wields obviously exceeding that of his dark gifts, as can be witnessed in Soul Reaver series, and most notably in Blood Omen 1.
There is no telling how this affects his physical state, especially when combined with aforementioned points, as we also have no clear insight into his exact magical powers and knowledge in SR series.
Like I said, a lot of this is speculation, since we actually know very little of this, and to create an exact explanation for this, we would have to know all the facts and cofluence of the different factors which I mentioned, and are highly likely to affect him.

So it's basically just theories here, a question only BO3 and SR3 will probably answer for certain.
I would present a few of my own theories, but seeing as this post turned out quite long as it is, I shan't bore you any longer.

Reaper007
5th Oct 2002, 04:05
Originally posted by Naja
*I care! I just got out of school, though.*

*this is a crazy/weird/unplausable idea...but hear me out...*

Maybe Kain didn't evolve because since he found the chronoplast chamber apparently not too long after Raziel was cast into the abyss, that he used the information and tools he found there to his advantage. Well, since his empire was already ruined - the land diseased, lost a liutenant, and all the trouble caused by those factors - he decided to leave it behind and use the chronoplast chamber to transport himself to the exact time that he needed to be to greet Raziel.

I think this makes some sense; it explains why his appearance didn't change and why the empire went to hell - liutenants....yeah, and the corrupted, dying world that there's no sense in ruling. Once he saw the future in the chamber, unless there was something he had to stick around for, it would make sense he wouldn't waste his time waiting for Raziel to come back and simply to forward in time to when he was needed.

There are also theories that Kain's evolution is at the point where his appearance no longer changes but his power increases. That makes sense, too. I just prefer that he used the time machine since : it was there, and there's nothing else worth staying around for if you already knew that ruling the land is pointless now.

Of course, Kain may have stayed around... I don't know. It would help if we knew what was up with Turel. It would help A LOT of things if we knew what was up with Turel.

.....okay, I'm done babbling now. Thank you for your time that I wasted.:rolleyes: ;)

PS: sorry... I don't know where this thread was... but it is around here somewhere. Or was it at another forum...:confused: sorry.

i dont know y but this thought just hit me. if the above turns out to be true, what if Turel is Kain evolved? obviously i have no evidence to support this so feel free to correct me(have only finished BO2 so far). i also read in an interview with amy hening(whatever) a while back she said that Turel was an important part of the story. thing is no one has put him in the theories so far.

Reaper007

FierceClaw
5th Oct 2002, 09:08
Turel and Kain can't be the same person since they've been seen in the same place at the same time. Additionarlly, Turel and Kain lived in different eras and died at the hands of different people.

Anubis_Orr
5th Oct 2002, 09:29
Originally posted by FierceClaw
Turel and Kain can't be the same person since they've been seen in the same place at the same time. Additionarlly, Turel and Kain lived in different eras and died at the hands of different people.

Who exactly was Kain killed by? :p

Turel as a Sarafan lived in a different era than Kain but not as a vampire, they spent millenia by eachother.

TG_Syd
6th Oct 2002, 23:32
umm...Brigands(sp?)

Hash'ak'gik
23rd Dec 2002, 19:56
Creatures only evolve when they need to adapt to the envioroment around them. If you look carefully, you'll see that all the Vampire evolution is useful in the envioroment they have selected as home.

Melchiahian: Can tunnel underground in an area with lots of earth.

Zephonim: Can climb in an area with lots of walls.

Rahabian: Are immune to water in a flooded area.

Dumahian: Are tough enough to become scavangers, as well as having those biiiiig tongues.

Turelim: Have big ears and are good at hunting other creatures down, which would be useful in the northen wastes where food is scarce.

Kain was god-like in power, he had quite simply didn't need to!
He had the Soul Reaver, had a load of magic and streanth to back him up, and for all we know he might have developed an invunerability to water too. Nothing could touch him.;)

Wise Man Domingo
23rd Dec 2002, 22:43
Unless I am much mistaken, doesn't the SR2 instruction manual say that the Lieutenants "devolved" into those monsters? I believe it says that in the "History of Nosgoth" section. Kain simply didn't devolve.

Or, it could just be that Crystal Dynamics said he stayed the same, and he stayed the same, 'cause what they say is law. :p

Hash'ak'gik
24th Dec 2002, 17:12
Quote: Kain simply didn't devolve.

Why?

And is devolve a real word? :p

Umah Bloodomen
25th Dec 2002, 01:27
Originally posted by Hash'ak'gik
Quote: Kain simply didn't devolve.

Why?

And is devolve a real word? :p

About as much as decelerate is. :p

It is clear Kain evolved to an extent (hence the claws and crests of flesh upon his head as well as his gifts were enhanced).

Did we ever stop to think maybe his evolutionary process was complete? :rolleyes:


No one "devolved", they were evolving, but due to the amount of Kain's soul they received was how much each one evolved. Those with less soul ended up becoming grotesque.

Power reaver
25th Dec 2002, 04:23
OR

It could be that without balance , the evolution of Vampires went haywire , because evolution improves a creature , not make it derranged . If they were to "evolve" properly then they should have gotten their different adaptations without losing their minds and becoming gross scavenging creatures .

Because Kain is the guardian of balance , it sustains him , and prevents him from becoming a mindless monster .

Hash'ak'gik
26th Dec 2002, 14:18
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

Did we ever stop to think maybe his evolutionary process was complete? :rolleyes:


Thats EXACTLY what I was saying! Doesn't anyone listen to ME!?!:mad:

Umah Bloodomen
27th Dec 2002, 05:18
Originally posted by Hash'ak'gik
Thats EXACTLY what I was saying! Doesn't anyone listen to ME!?!:mad:

Oh cool your jets. :rolleyes: You said that Kain didn't need to evolve, you never once mentioned his anything about his evolution already being complete.



Originally posted by Hash'ak'gik
Creatures only evolve when they need to adapt to the envioroment around them. If you look carefully, you'll see that all the Vampire evolution is useful in the envioroment they have selected as home.

Melchiahian: Can tunnel underground in an area with lots of earth.

Zephonim: Can climb in an area with lots of walls.

Rahabian: Are immune to water in a flooded area.

Dumahian: Are tough enough to become scavangers, as well as having those biiiiig tongues.

Turelim: Have big ears and are good at hunting other creatures down, which would be useful in the northen wastes where food is scarce.

Kain was god-like in power, he had quite simply didn't need to!
He had the Soul Reaver, had a load of magic and steanth to back him up, and for all we know he might have developed an invunerability to water too. Nothing could touch him.
Kain was god-like in power, he had quite simply didn't need to!
He had the Soul Reaver, had a load of magic and steanth to back him up, and for all we know he might have developed an invunerability to water too. Nothing could touch him.

This states to me (a reader) some of the adaptations the brethren went through. It doesn't comment on these beings being through with their own evolutionary processes.

This also states to me that you meant to emphasize Kain was a god. Okay, where exactly does the "completed evolution" come into play? All I see is talk of a blade that there is currently no evidence to support the fact Kain could actually instill his own dark gifts into the Soul Reaver. He merely used the gifts the blade already possesed. And I also see that he has magic abilities and invulnerabilities. And you mentioned that vampires need to adapt to their surroundings in order to live.

You primarily focus on his power. It is left open for debate on further developing those powers and obtaining new ones.

You may have intended on saying his evolution was complete. Which I agreed with until I came up with this curve:

As long as Kain still lives, Balance is not restored. As long as Balance is not restored, the Pillars are corrupt. As long as the Pillars are corrupt and vulnerable, Nosgoth continues to degenerate. Give it another millenia and see if it hasn't degenerated to the point where Kain would again have to evolve/adapt to survive.

This is an open-ended debate. Which we can all gain knowledge from and enjoy each other's speculation. I just contradicted the sarcastic notion of Kain's evolution being complete with the idea I stated above.

Before you had your little tantrum here and clarified that's what you meant, there was no way to clearly obtain that intention from your response.

One should focus on what they wish to convey through type. (It is a difficult medium to pick up one's interpretation through). If you want your message clearly understood, then clarify, if you are unsure if you made any sense, ask. Most of us do to ensure the general consensus fully understands what we mean.

Don't sit here and lash out because someone wasn't clear on what you wanted to say. No offense, but it is rude and not appreciated.

People make mistakes, that's a part of being human. Kindly save your attitude and anger for another medium besides this forum.

Hash'ak'gik
3rd Jan 2003, 12:09
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
All I see is talk of a blade that there is currently no evidence to support the fact Kain could actually instill his own dark gifts into the Soul Reaver. He merely used the gifts the blade already possesed. And I also see that he has magic abilities and invulnerabilities. And you mentioned that vampires need to adapt to their surroundings in order to live.
[/color] [/B]

You misunderstand. I meant that there was no threat to Kain, so he had no reason to evolve. As for the Soul Reaver blade, when I included that I meant it that Kain had evolved to rely on it (a bit) in the same way foxes in the city are evolving to be scavengers.

As for Kain being a 'God', by now he must be the equal of one of the winged race, if not more, and as far as we know, they didn't evolve. Janos was around for a few hundred years at least after the fall of his race, and judging from the SR2 murals, he was exactly the same.

I dunno, this probably a question that will never have an answear.:(

Plink
4th Jan 2003, 06:38
*looks around* here are my thoughts on the whole matter.

We are told that each vampire will evole dark gifts that are unique to them. Unique in a sense that they will have a different combination of powers. Some can turn into mist, some can turn themselves into bats and so forth. However, when you look at the characters in BO2, you see that they have evolved according to the way they are...meaning that their natural gifts have been enhanced and so forth.

So consider this, (Says I, knowing that the last comment I made had nothing to do with Kain-sama) what if Kain, while corrupt, is still capable of holding onto decency? I got the feeling that the vampires evolved due to their attitude with life, due to the way they acted in certain situations. For all his evil appearence, Kain is acting for the greater good, even if it involves saving his own arse. Ooh, can I say that word here? Anyway, look at Janos in BO2.

To be blunt and to the point, I believe that Kain has a decent soul, and therefore won't dengenerate. From what i remember, the other vampires were not the same...perhaps Turel, but the others....I don't know. I'm probably way off, so just ignore me ^^

CyberFish
4th Jan 2003, 21:37
As has been suggested, it's quite possible that his bond to the pillar of balance sustained him. The human guardians lived for centuries, and Janos was kept alive through his guardianship of the Reaver even when all the other Ancients had fallen.

Another possiblity is that Kain's children evolved (or rather devolved) to their present states because they were in some way flawed from their creation.

Anyway... I doubt it's just Kain who was immune to the devolution. If that were the case, Vorador would be just as twisted as Kain's offspring. Possibly it was something to do with the fall of the pillars that led to vampires turning into such hideously distorted monsters.

Time Streamer
5th Jan 2003, 13:54
I agree with the Pillars being the reason for the Kain's children's decay. Pillars had collapsed, land began to die&decay slowly over the time. Vampires evolved naturally but once they'd reached their ultimate forms, the state of the Pillars&land began to reflect on them.

darien_specter
10th Jan 2003, 17:03
That the decay of the Pillars is part of the process is a good idea. I think that some of the SR1 dialogues supports this concept, though I haven't really looked it up...

It also seems valid to point out (since it hasn't been stated exactly this way yet) that, though all of Kain's offspring share the common attribute of having been raised from the dead (as opposed to created from the living, as I would expect Vorador and all before Moebius' genocide were), the six lieutenants were raised through Kain yielding up some part of his spirit in a manner we don't yet know; and we know that this got weaker as it went down the line. (Melchiah, we were told, was already sort of rotting as it was even at the height of the empire.) So this is I think another factor in their devolution... also it has always seemed to me that the farther up the line you go, and therefore the stronger, that their evolution is more stable. Witness the difference in Melchiah, as a lumbering beast, and Zephon, as a huge insectoid monster trapped in his hole; versus Rahab, who, while admittedly larger is not much larger than Dumah, who still has more of a recognizable body, in his fishy form; and Dumah, who is still humanoid, but bigger. We never saw Turel; and I used to wonder in threads of days gone by whether he might still be about Raziel's size, and not actually huge or even that grotesque. (Doesn't one of the concept art images in the credits show someone we've assumed to be Turel, who is still wearing his clan banner?)

As far as Kain skipping ahead: while I don't really think that's what happened (good idea, but Kain does berate Raziel about the 'mass of doubt and regret' and all), I don't see how Dumah could have seized control. First off, Turel's higher on the ladder than he is; and second, he seems to have spent large parts of the intervening time as a shishkebob...

Lastly, I fail to see a 'temper tantrum' anywhere. Maybe he was just reacting to the condescending eye-rolling... and it may well not have been so intended, but that's how it looks from this angle, and perhaps that's how it was received. I'm not sure a lecture on 'rudeness' was either necessary or appropriate... seems to my humble self that the mods can handle that kind of stuff through private channels...

xarax
13th Jan 2003, 15:28
Some silly wild-ass guess (SWAG):


I think the lieutenants devolved in SR1 for the same reason that Janos devolved in BO2; "The Hylden" did something to them. However, Kain was able to evade the Hylden's devolution sorcery ("better them than me!").

Kain evolved because he was surrounded by his lietenants, who were also evolving. They all had an "evolutionary lifeforce", which mutually sustained all of their evolutions, including Kain's.

When Raziel sprouted wings, it was the sign that Kain was waiting for (Kain already had access to the time machine thing and knew that day would come and what it meant). Raziel's wings proved that Raziel was of the same bloodline as Janos' race. Kain knew it was time to set things in motion for the Soul Reaver.

Also, since Raziel was of Janos' race, Kain knows that the damage done to Raziel is not permanent. Raziel has a "black heart", just like Janos, only Raziel doesn't know it, yet. A "black heart" can restore vampiric life. Raziel can get back his former vampiric body (wings intact), but he'll need some help.

The Hylden systematically attacked and devolved Kain's lieutenants one-by-one and scattered them back to their collapsed dukedoms. Kain was unable to evolve any more without his lieutenants (their "evolutionary lifeforce" was destroyed by the Hylden devolution sorcery).

I also think that Raziel's "soul" is a new soul created by Kain, not that of the human Seraphan Raziel. All vampires created from human corpses have new "souls". This helps to explain why vampires have little or no memory of their "human lives", because those memories are false (just left over from dead brain matter in the corpse). A soul departs its dead corpse rather quickly, as we've seen in SR1 & SR2. There's no logical reason to think that the process of creating a vampire from a human corpse will somehow locate that departed soul and reinvest it into the vampire. OTOH, there is an "infinite supply" of "soul energy" from which to create a new "soul" for the new vampire.

2 cents worth. Your mileage may vary.

Plink
14th Jan 2003, 07:38
You beat me to the whole black heart/Raziel back to normal vampire self thing-o, but as to everything else...well, I'd say YEAH! to it, but before anyone else says it: Why haven't the hylden attacked the humans? Why do the vampires still exist, if the Hylden had acess to the world then...? But, on the other talon, the Pillars have degenerated...then maybe if the Kain we all know and love dies, the Pillars will at last give out, and the Hylden may return-

Wait a minute. That must be the whole 'You must kill Kain" thing going on through SR2. Everyone is baying for Kain's blood. Not the past Kain, but the future Kain. Because he is a vampire, immortal. He is a true guardian of the Pillars. Ariel may have been a double agent, she was killed to make way for Kain, but no one anticipated Nupraptor's reaction, thus corrupting the newborn and future guardian of the Pillar of Balance. Ariel could have been working for the hylden. Maybe she is the corruption? Getting close to Nupraptor, guardian of the mind, so that if she died, he would go insane and destroy all that hard work. Therefore, she knew what was going to happen in that she suspected she'd be assassinated before she got her chance to take out Kain or something. If she failed in that, it didn't matter, seeing as Nupraptor corrupted him anyway...

*Blinks and yawns* Writing weird theories when tired is silly. Sorry again ^^;;

keepittrue
14th Jan 2003, 12:18
Very interesting points my friends.

I thought I read somewhere (a long time ago a little after SR1) that Kain still evolves. I tend to look at it like this, the less amount of soul recieved by Kains sons the more grotesque they looked.
Raziel:
My brother, Melchiah, was made last, and therefore received the poorest portion of Kain’s gift. Although immortal, his soul could not sustain the flesh, which retained much of its previous human frailty. This weakness, it seemed, was passed on to his offspring. Their fragile skins barely contained the underlying decay.

Also following theyre evolution was the fact that they adapted to theyre enviornments which also played a role in how they looked and evolved. I belive Kain still evolves in powers but not merely as much in flesh.

DarkWraith
16th Jan 2003, 14:54
I may have missed this point somewher and if i did sorry. BUT...... ok As we are told in SR Kain created his lieutenants in a certain order and thus they grew weaker as the abilities he ran outta abilities to impart we move down the list from Dumah to Melchiahia (i exclude Turel simple coz he ain't around yet). Doesn't it stand to reason that as they moved on the ability to "evolve" without losing the human image was lost to. i mean look at Rehab, and Melchiahia. they hardly look humanish, whilst Dumah although being rather large still looks like the a really beefed up normal vamp (sorta). Maybe Turel does too although we can't really tell from the concept art we have seen in the credits of SR. I don't know what you guys think of this
DW
(apologies if you get lost in the way i wrote that)

doomswoman1
18th Jan 2003, 04:58
I'm posting kinda late on this but I just can't
help wanting to put in my theory too.
I noticed that Janos and Kain have something
in common. Both Janos and Kain were turned into
vampires by 'spellwork'. While Raziel and Vorador
were turned into vampires by what I consider more
traditional means (and I do mean those who were
dead bodies impregnated with vampire spirits, and
those who died from vampire bites.)
Neither Janos nor Kain 'devolved' due to passing
time. But their children, Vorador and Raziel
did. Vorador has definitely developed wolfish
characteristics, following his apparently favorite
shift form.
Janos does devolve, but its due to being drained
of his life-force. What I was wondering though,
is this actually what was causing the devolution? Some...
thing in Nosgoth has caused corruption that is so
great that no matter how much blood
the vampire takes in, they can't create enough
life-force to sustain themselves at a
higher evolutionary level? That all fledgling
vampires are already corrupted at hatching?
Because Kain and Janos are 'first generation'
vampires, the curse is stronger on them. They
keep their memories, their souls and their
personalities. I know, somebody will point out
that Kain was dead when he was converted. But
I believe that Mortanius, being a necromancer,
held Kain's soul in his body while seeking Kain's
permission to turn him.
Of course, I have the strange feeling that I've
already posted this somewhere before...probably
here... in which case, just forget it. Return
to your regularly scheduled reading.

DarkWraith
18th Jan 2003, 10:13
I was under the impression that Mortanius didn't actually ask for permission. of corse this could just mean i need to play the game again.. it has been a while

Plink
22nd Jan 2003, 06:40
But Janos devolved through lack of blood and freedom. Perhaps the same can be said for Melchiah, Zephon and to a point Rahab. The three to not have so much access to humanity...so as their bodies evolved, and did not need so much blood, they began to devolve. It would be different for each vampire, yes? But through the spell working, it sort of goes onto the young ones too. So while there is some humanity with the others - The Melchahim are human in shape, seeing as they can find prey easy, as can the Zephonim, but the Dumahim, moving through the lands don't. People are not as careful around the melchahim. there are the priests and that for the Zephonim. Um, the Rahabim can't reach people so easily thanks to the sunlight thing. From what we've seen, the Turelim are human, but...aw, you get the idea.

Kain can go just about anywhere. He's happy.

*envisions a happy Kain dancing around a decimated town, throwing around bits of body singing something really stupid*

Okay, I know I'm tired but this is stupid.

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Jan 2003, 15:25
Originally posted by DarkWraith
I may have missed this point somewher and if i did sorry. BUT...... ok As we are told in SR Kain created his lieutenants in a certain order and thus they grew weaker as the abilities he ran outta abilities to impart we move down the list from Dumah to Melchiahia (i exclude Turel simple coz he ain't around yet). Doesn't it stand to reason that as they moved on the ability to "evolve" without losing the human image was lost to. i mean look at Rehab, and Melchiahia. they hardly look humanish, whilst Dumah although being rather large still looks like the a really beefed up normal vamp (sorta). Maybe Turel does too although we can't really tell from the concept art we have seen in the credits of SR. I don't know what you guys think of this
DW
(apologies if you get lost in the way i wrote that)

Dark Wraith ~

Just to go over the order of how Kain raised his lieutenants, Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon, Melchiah.

Your post here is a bit hard to follow, so I apologize for any misunderstandings and ask that you clarify on where I appear to misinterpret anything.

Lets look at Kain's soul as a pie. A piece of the pie is handed off to 6 different individuals, judging by Kain's power hungry nature, I would assume he originally intended to give all of the bretheren the same amount of pie. After the first piece to be shared, Kain realized if he did give the same amount to all 6 individuals, he would die. We can actually speculate here on what the determining factors were that Kain based his decisions on. (Meaning, did he time-stream to see how strong each brethren was in life, - a background check LOL).

Okay, so Kain gets a little greedy with Raziel (who is the most humanoid), not so greedy with Turel (I think it is important to include him btw), less greedy with Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiah.

I do agree with you that the weaker brethren could not sustain themselves (normally anyway) as evolution took over.

Melchiah lacks the ability to maintain a solid physical form. (Hence why he skins people and uses that to hold himself together). Zephon's evolution was also not strong enough to maintain a solid physical form (hence why I believe he grew as a part of the Silenced Cathedral - for support purposes). Rahab, was very amphibious, yet he did maintain humanoid qualities (arms for example). Dumah, I agree is a "beefy" vamp, but he is also rather grotesque as well (not to the same extent as Zephon and Melchiah however). Turel, although he maintains a semi-humanoid form, he is quite different. (He has some of the same characteristics of Vorador - big ears, claws). But he also maintains definate shape. And we all know where Raziel ended up. :p

Doomswoman ~ You are correct on the Janos/Kain issue, as you are on the Vorador issue. Raziel was sired through "spellwork". Normal means of vampire reproduction, stated by Amy Hennig is through the bite or live birth (which does not apply here). You need to remember also though that Vorador is technically a new species entirely. He was amongst the first humans plagued by the vampiric curse. Janos maintained his physical form beacuse the Hylden curse obviously had no affect on their physical forms. Vorador (being human) and being infected by the Ancient's curse resulted in new evolutionary/adaptation processes.

Kain is also a new species of vampire. By being raised from "spellwork himself" again provides new evolutionary/adaptation processes to be undergone. Kain also evolved, his skin became ashen and he eventually spawned claws and the crests of flesh upon his head.

What I am getting at is that I agree with Janos and Kain both being first generation vampires. But their species are not the same. I am also getting at that it is clear that vampirisim has an evolutionary affect on humans. Again, I don't think the Hylden intended for anything other than a bloodcurse upon the Ancients, hence why Janos retains his form. As for his appearance in BO2, I believe that was solely Hylden induced. Janos was merely a lab-rat to perform experiments on. The guise of the Beast, I commented on somewhere before, was not to draw attention to Janos being alive, which could spark a bigger and deadlier revolt than The Sarafan Lord wanted. (Moreso, the Device would've been destroyed a lot sooner if Janos was left in his normal form, because he could "whisper" to whomever he wanted to and disclose his situation).

Mortanius never asked for Kain's permission to turn him. He gave him the opportunity to avenge his death which Kain took. There was no mention on how that was to be accomplished. Mortanius could've returned Kain's soul and Kain could've returned as an undead human, Mortanius' craftywork took it that extra vampiric step.

Plink ~ Melchiah did have access to humanity, as I stated above, he used their skins to keep himself together.


I now raise the question of the vampires actually needing blood to survive once they reach the height of their evolutionary processes? I don't exactly see Kain feeding off any individuals in the SR series, nor do I see Vorador going out of his way to feed in BO2.

If this is the case, I would expect to an extent that Vorador would require blood to survive (because he is pureblood and that was in the original design), although perhaps he could go for longer periods without it.

But I ask did Kain and his progeny actually work the flaw of the thirst for blood out of their genetics? The older they get and the more evolved they become, the less they require the trivial instance of Blood to sustain themselves.

Interesting indeed...

doomswoman1
28th Jan 2003, 01:21
What I am getting at is that I agree with Janos and Kain
both being first generation vampires. But their species is not the same.

That's true. But have you given a thought to
possible parallel evolution? That's when two
species of divergent origins develop similar characteristics
to fill a similar
ecological niche. (I've been watching
waaaaaayyyy too much Discovery channel). I
wish I could be
more specific, but I can't without stopping to
look it up, but its like two species of snakes,
who both take up living in trees and eating frogs.
One is in Borneo, and the other in South America.
But both turn green, develop triangle shaped heads and
look identical, except that one is a
constrictor, and the other uses poison. Have you
noticed that even without the blue coloring, Kain
has developed the two-fingered hands, and strange
feet, not exactly like Janos's but pretty close?
The human vampires have taken the place of Janos's
species, but since they are all the decendents of
one bloodline (Kain) they are all interrelated.
The children of other vampires might be different.
Of course, there are no other vampires for the reasons
that Umah gave during BO2. Kain probably
had Vorador's children killed to avoid the chance
of treason. And all of Janos's contemporaries
are dead, leaving no offspring that we've seen.

About Mortainius---He does ask Kain's permission
to change him. He 'offers' Kain a chance for
revenge.
He just doesn't tell him 'how' he's going to get that revenge. I mean, think how you
would react if someone said, "Oh, I'm going to give
you everything you've ever wanted, but lots of
strangers are going to try and kill you, you can't eat,
you can't go out during the day, and your
breath is going to be absolutely nasty?"
I think vampirism was actually Morty's best bet.
We saw the dessicated undead things in SR2, and
they didn't look or fight all that great. In
Necromancy, at least what I've read of it, the
dead raised by the necromancer, need blood
in order to move or speak. By changing Kain into
a vampire, Morty removed the necessity of giving
Kain blood directly, he enabled Kain to seek blood
on his own. That way Kain couldn't be traced
directly back to him. (Although Anacrothe did
do that.)
To quote Kain "and like a fool, I jumped at his
offer." That's probably going to be Kain's
epitaph.
And does anyone have any theories about the
'third' group of vampires? You know "Vorador's
Pets?"


For these were Vorador's Pets, little more than beasts, slave to his will
and the easy prey he provided. Vampires, all of them, held in thrall by one stronger still.

Nigel
2nd Feb 2003, 19:07
i know this is a little late but my two cents (which has probably already been said)

Kain didnt make a vampire in his traditional way (at least i dont think so) he breathed part of himself into them thus creating his brethren. Could it be that throughout time this process broke down and forced the creatures to evolve into pooty thingys? Kain the original would evolve as he should have while the others mutated, al la human cloning. original is super fine while the clones are super not.

n