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solidsnake
25th Sep 2002, 21:06
I actually have a number of questions and would like to hear people's ideas on them.

1) who do u think is more powerful... SR Kain or Vorador during the BO era?

2) could Raz actually kill destroy Kain as easily as he thinks? Raz seems pretty confident that he could... but I think SR Kain should be about invincible.

3) If Janos is so powerful... why did he get blasted into the demon realm (whether he made it there or not is a different story)so easily by the SL???:confused:

Preacher
25th Sep 2002, 23:26
1) Hard to say, it's tough to call because we haven't seen Vorador fight anyone but Malek and the circle, and he certainly did do a number on them. And since Kain couldn't defeat Malek but Vorador could, that makes it even harder to call.

but, I'm gonna have to go with SR Kain, he's had what, 2 milleniums to grow strong and evolve? While poor Vorador of the past is doomed to exist in the travesty that was Blood Omen 2, or have his head chopped off in Blood Omen 1.

I think Vorador could beat down Young Kain pretty easily, but would have a big and lengthy battle with Present Kain.

2) I definately think that Raziel could kill Kain. I mean there's absolutely no doubt he's got the potential, but he could certainly do it at his whim if he wanted. Even Kain at the end of SR1, you saw how limp and injured he was, and that was only after three shots from the Reaver.

Also, let's not forget Raziel is destined to kill Kain. It's pretty much inevitable that Raziel does kill Kain. Think about how much explaining kain had to do before Raziel realized the impotance of not killing Kain.

3) An easy and most satisfactory answer for all Janos fans. Look at it from Janos' view, the poor guy has been literally having the life sucked out of him for the last 400 years. He even devolved from his divine Vampire state.

Taking on the Sarafan Lord, using his magic to get Kain to the gate, obtaining the Reaver, considering what Janos has just been through, that's very impressive. And towards the end of SR2, he took on 5 of the Sarafan Brethren at once! I mean there's no denying that Janos is one tough hombre.

Were he at full strength, hell, even in good form, I think he could have beaten the hell out of the Sarafan Lord within a matter of seconds.

Naja
25th Sep 2002, 23:30
1. I think that SR Kain is more powerful... just because he's Kain! :p

2. I think Raziel COULD kill Kain - in a battle of attrition, Raziel would win because of the spectral realm - however I don't think he WOULD ever do it unless it was necessary.

3. Personally, I think he should have been able to at least get in one good punch before he went over the edge, don't you? He deserves to get at least that much revenge - a good, hard punch to the SL. Well, we aren't sure that he is powerful... but it is so obvious that he would have extraordinary powers. Hm.... I have no idea why he was thrown so easily. :confused: And when I saw that 'fight'.... :eek:

Oh well... that's my two cents. Enjoy.:D

solidsnake
26th Sep 2002, 00:31
I would like to say myself that SR Kain would beat BO Vorador just because I love Kain. He's a bad ass. But do we truly know how old Vorador is?? It didn't say how long he'd been a vampire prior to BO, did it???? And I now see what you mean about Janos being zapped of life for half a century... that would take it's toll on someone. I still think he shoulda did some kinda damage tho....

solidsnake
26th Sep 2002, 00:34
I forgot in my last one to mention Vorador in BO2... sorry but he looked pretty whimpy... nothing of the ferocious warrior in BO and SR2... he actually looked kinda pathetic, actually. Maybe I'm just too much of a fan of how he looked and carried himself w/ so much confidence in BO.

Naja
26th Sep 2002, 00:50
My friend and I were talking about how BO2 Vorador is nothing compared to BO1 Vorador; in BO1 he was so 'evil'/sadistic/confident/violent/livin' bling bling/big pimp daddy, but in BO2 he was calm/kinda fatherly/livin in da ghetto/leader-yes, but was indifferent almost in the sense he didn't take any action of his own; he just had others do his work. His emotions were extrememly toned down from that of BO1 - when Umah died, he was upset for all of five seconds.... then just slightly annoyed. And when meeting Janos, he was shocked and surprised.... all of five seconds. And when that Cabal member came in with news of Umah and he was all beat up, Vorador cared for him for all of.... zero seconds - he didn't even show that he cared that the messenger didn't have an eye!!!! He didn't care that he was bleeding to death!!!! All he showed concern for was Umah..... for all of five seconds. *sigh* well, that's my bit....

solidsnake
26th Sep 2002, 00:56
I have a question.... and a thought. How old is Vorador prior to BO???? He is supposed to be somewhat ancient( I don't mean Janos ancient, but still). And I have a thougth as to why Vorador is in BO2/and is so wimpy. Perhaps the actions of Raz in SR2 and all the reshuffling caused Vorador to be brought back... maybe he never died due to the altered timeline... any thoughts???

Naja
26th Sep 2002, 02:09
I'm not going to get into the whole reshuffling of time thing... I've seen far too many threads go to hell and back because of that question.

Vorador is at LEAST 500 years older than Kain (from SR2, Vorador said that Janos was killed 500 years ago from than point - which was just hours after Kain was born.). That's all I know, though. They didn't say how old he was... ever. If they did, I missed it.

Umah Bloodomen
26th Sep 2002, 04:00
Originally posted by Naja
I'm not going to get into the whole reshuffling of time thing... I've seen far too many threads go to hell and back because of that question.

Vorador is at LEAST 500 years older than Kain (from SR2, Vorador said that Janos was killed 500 years ago from than point - which was just hours after Kain was born.). That's all I know, though. They didn't say how old he was... ever. If they did, I missed it.

I'll call you on this one, Naja. Kain was born 30 years prior to the events of Blood Omen. Janos was murdered at least 500 years prior to this. Raziel met up with Vorador in the Termogent Forest and explained that Janos died nearly five centuries earlier. I would assume this meeting occurred just after the murder of Ariel, seeing that Vorador points out the coincidence of Raziel's appearance in Nosgoth coinciding with the corruption of the Pillars. Now, unless you have mispoken, (or I had misread your statement) this is obviously more than "just hours" after the death of Janos Audron. ;)


As far as the age of Vorador:


Appearing compliments of warpsavant and Blincoln, upon asking Amy Hennig a few questions
A: Vorador was a human being. In the eras depicted in BO:LoK, Vorador was already an ancient, highly-evolved vampire (which is why his appearance is so "inhuman"). So the human Vorador was born in a much earlier, more "primitive" period within Nosgoth's history.

I will go out on a limb and assume (from Amy's response) that Vorador is at least 1000-1500 (give or take a few) years older than Kain. There is no current evidence to support the fact (at this time anyway) that the time of Vorador's human origins were amongst documented history in Nosgoth and obviously he isn't as old as Janos. ;)

Janos said he had been waiting for thousands of years over Uschtenheim, watching the events unfold for his race and humanity. Granted, he does not go into detail about when the binding of the Pillars occured, but I speculate that this event occured prior to his thousand year watch. Vorador must have been sired during these thousands of years.

Now if we do the math, Raziel meets up with Vorador 30 years before BO1. Vorador explains Janos died 500 years prior to this time. Janos has been in Uschtenheim for thousands of years (which I will assume happened after the Pillar binding), Amy said Vorador was an ancient human originating from a more
"primitive point in Nosgoth's history" (which I will say happened during the time after Janos inhabited his retreat).

My conclusion is: Vorador is roughly (at least) 1000-1500 years older than Kain.


Did I mention I loathe math? :p ;)

Naja
26th Sep 2002, 05:35
Exactly; I said that when Raziel and Vorador were talking, that was just hours after Kain had been born. (well, it took me a couple hours to get to that point of the game, what with the subterranian pillars, swamp, and dark forge to get through.) The dash was used to indicate that I was referring to their conversation, otherwise I would have used a comma if I were elaborating on what Vorador had said.

Yeah, I hate math too. :D

Lozza Mate
26th Sep 2002, 10:07
I can't remember where I got this age from, but I'm certain that Vorador is around 7000yrs of age... I'll try and remember how I came to this number...

Umah Bloodomen
27th Sep 2002, 02:37
Originally posted by Lozza Mate
I can't remember where I got this age from, but I'm certain that Vorador is around 7000yrs of age... I'll try and remember how I came to this number...

I would like to know where you came up with that number as well, Lozza. It is more believable to me that Janos is around that age, but I find it hard to swallow concerning Vorador. (Doesn't make it less valid of a theory, just my personal opinion) ;)

Preacher
27th Sep 2002, 16:11
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


I would like to know where you came up with that number as well, Lozza. It is more believable to me that Janos is around that age, but I find it hard to swallow concerning Vorador. (Doesn't make it less valid of a theory, just my personal opinion) ;)

Must... resist... urge... to... make... weak joke...

Umah Bloodomen
27th Sep 2002, 18:27
Must not resist to point out the lack of maturity in someone who is normally rather mature... :rolleyes:


How old are we again? :rolleyes:

Preacher
27th Sep 2002, 21:18
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Must not resist to point out the lack of maturity in someone who is normally rather mature... :rolleyes:


How old are we again? :rolleyes:
I know, I know... I apologise. Go ahead, kick me in the nuts. No, really... I deserve it.

*Umah kicks Preacher in the nuts*

:eek:

*dies*

NoobSaibot
27th Sep 2002, 22:21
Personally I would have to go with voridor being at least 1500 to 2000 years older for the simple fact that when Raziel went back to the time of the sarafan, and Janos's heart being ripped out, Voridor was strong enough to take his revenge on most of the 'uncorupted' circle members of the time period.

The only reason he probably didn't get Malek, Mobias, and Mortanius was Raziel kept them a little busy. So, Voridor had to be prity tough even then to take on 6 circle members single handedly. Even Fledglng Kain only woried about 2 at a time.

If my point was lost through this whole thing, I am sorry. I guess I am rambaling a little.

Lozza Mate
28th Sep 2002, 04:08
now that I think about it, I can't remember at all how I got the 7000yrs old number...

however I would say that Vorador would be at least 1500yrs old at the time of his death. he must have been close to that age to take down so many pillar gaurdians without much trouble. and I would assume that Janos created him shortly after the blood-lust curse was put on the vampires. and the ancient vamps had been around thousands of years before BO1 took place.

I reckon he's pretty damn old. I'm gonna make a rough estimate of 5000yrs old.

Power reaver
28th Sep 2002, 07:26
DONT WORRY GUYS ......THE MATH WIZARD (uhh apprentice) IS HERE . :p

Well according to me Kain is 2530 at max (assuming Raz stayed in the Abyss for 1000 yrs at max) . Now considering how much older he looks to Vorador (all those cracks on his skin and his wierd head) , I must say Vorador is just under 1530 yrs of age . Why , cause Vorador doesent look as old as Kain and Kain looked exactly as he is now when he was 1530 yrs of age .

Bottom line :
Kain looked older that V when he was 1530 yrs of age . Thus Vorador in BO is lower then that . Also fledgling Kain could take on 2 guardians at once , what problem would a 1000 yr old Vorador have against 6 ?

According to me the Present Kain would whip Voradors butt .

Anubis_Orr
28th Sep 2002, 08:43
Plus there is still the strange instance where the Guardians magic failed them when Vorador came for them, which has yet to be explained, but has been mentioned in passing by Amy.

Power reaver
28th Sep 2002, 09:24
Right you are Anubis_Orr .

But dont forget the fact , age doesent necessarily mean power . Have you all forgotten that Raziel is 500 yrs older than Kain but still Kain is the Boss . Similairly Vorador could be 7000 yrs old but not nearly as strong as present Kain . It all depends on how long a Vampire has remained active .

Anubis_Orr
28th Sep 2002, 11:28
530 years older.... but he's a corpse for that time.

Age does mean power, it just doesn't mean all powerful. It nearly all vampires mythos as a vampire grows older he/she becomes more powerful, this doesn't mean that the oldest is necessarily the strongest especially in the LoK world, there's magic, method of creation, and the blood drank from their enemies.

I like Anne Rice's perspective on age in terms of vampires... Basically the spirit inhabiting the body of a vampire (easily seen by Kain's method of creating a fledling [a piece of his soul]) changes its host and as time goes on it continually is perfecting the body, making it; stronger, more resistant to vampire vices [water, fire, sun], imparting new abilities.... and also with age comes evolutionary steps, however in the case of the lieutenants they almost seem to have de-evolved, becoming specialized vampires and susceptible to things that don't effect even fledglings, Turel's and Dumah's broods seems to have been the exception (I would also deem water to be an exception because that has always been deadly to vampires) it seems to me that the other 3 lieutenants weren't given enough of Kain's soul to grant them this, almost like a genetic instability that mutates the cell and then the cell is reproduced over and over again.

Lozza Mate
28th Sep 2002, 12:02
Originally posted by Power reaver
DONT WORRY GUYS ......THE MATH WIZARD (uhh apprentice) IS HERE . :p

Well according to me Kain is 2530 at max (assuming Raz stayed in the Abyss for 1000 yrs at max) . Now considering how much older he looks to Vorador (all those cracks on his skin and his wierd head) , I must say Vorador is just under 1530 yrs of age . Why , cause Vorador doesent look as old as Kain and Kain looked exactly as he is now when he was 1530 yrs of age .

Bottom line :
Kain looked older that V when he was 1530 yrs of age . Thus Vorador in BO is lower then that . Also fledgling Kain could take on 2 guardians at once , what problem would a 1000 yr old Vorador have against 6 ?

According to me the Present Kain would whip Voradors butt .

looks don't mean anything. a vampire evolves in it's own unique way. all of the bretherin were exactly the same age and yet they look completely different... catch my drift?

Lozza Mate
28th Sep 2002, 12:05
also lets not forget that we have no idea how old the circle members that vorador killed were.... I'm under the impression that a circle member is gifted with demi-immortality (ie: immune from death of old age/natural causes, not completely immortal just incase they become currupt they can still be killed)

so we have no idea how strong those circle members were... this is getting anoying

Anubis_Orr
28th Sep 2002, 12:38
darien, warp, and I had a big discussion have the immortality of the Guardians or lack there of.

Luckily Amy settled it for us by saying that the Guardianship grants extreme longevity, so while they can die of old age it would take a REALLY long time. It also seems to grant perfect health as well.

And I don't think age has any relevance when it comes to magic.

[Edit]Grammar

Power reaver
29th Sep 2002, 06:01
Well if you dont judge by the looks , then the only other thing is power . And comparing his power to Kains , he isnt more than 2530 yrs of age . (thats Kains age and we all agree that Kain is very powerful) .

But then there is this other thing , could the guardians be that weak ????? There were 6 guardians in that room . Probably they were doing something very important , and then Vorador surprised attacked them , so Vorador had the upper hand . On top of that the guardians could have been weakened by whatever they were doing in that room , so Vorador could have taken upon the chance and killed them all . Thus explaining why Vorador didnt take part actively in later fights , because he is not that powerful as everyone thinks . Its just that he got a good oppertunity to kill the guardians and he made good use of it .

So if you scratch out looks and power , then there is really nothing left you can guess his age with .

solidsnake
29th Sep 2002, 15:37
If Vorador isn't that powerful then how do you explain how be defeated Malek?? Both times at that.:confused: :confused:

Anubis_Orr
29th Sep 2002, 16:51
Vorador is powerful, but his age isn't all that gives him that power, I would imagine that he had to endure many things over the years of his life, some would have made him stronger and others would have strengthened his magical abilities and with age comes wisdom :)

Vorador wasn't active in later fights because he simply didn't care, all the people he loved had been killed, his spirit had been broken and so he just retreated to his mansion and let time pass, I think Kain awakened his spirit and gave him something to fight for.

Hanpolo
30th Sep 2002, 00:52
Hey do not forget that Kain is a vampire guardian. Vorador is just an ancient Vampire.
At the events of BO Vorador probably has the upper hand over Kain, because his is older, wiser and in control of his avilities. In the other hand, Kain has the most potential, but he is too young. At the events of Bo2 Kain is starting to rise in power while Vorador all ready reached his power peak....
An as for Raziel well.... he die as human... technically he die as a vampire... and know he can not die no matter what... so it does not matters how many tries it takes to kill Kain enventually he has to win once and that will be the end of Kain...


......Ummm or may be not....! After all, Janos, Vorador, Raziel and Mobious have a hard time staying dead. Kain probably could return as the: Belessed soul reaver, gurdian, vampire, sexless, champion of the dark and light.. and the undead doble avenger of justice for all the taxpayers of Nosthgor.

Hanpolo out.

Anubis_Orr
30th Sep 2002, 01:12
Actually in BO2 Vorador seems to have been greatly weakened, he doesn't take part in anything and when he does he is easily "whupped". Probably an aftereffect of having your head cut off and then reattached.... a pox on those back-alley surgeons!

Power reaver
30th Sep 2002, 17:10
If Vorador isn't that powerful then how do you explain how be defeated Malek?? Both times at that.

Whoops , kinda forgot about that . Someone needs to kick me , HARD , right on the head .


Vorador is powerful, but his age isn't all that gives him that power, I would imagine that he had to endure many things over the years of his life, some would have made him stronger and others would have strengthened his magical abilities and with age comes wisdom



Thats what I thought , well at least that his age didnt make him all that powerful . It was other experiences , and thats what I meant by "more time a Vampire his active" .