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Thorup
24th Sep 2002, 19:55
I think that Pyro should make a mission pack for c2 before launching c3. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the to postpone c3, but only give us something to do while waiting.

I certainly miss more commandos missions.

Longshot
24th Sep 2002, 21:16
I think they should just keep working on C3.

There are so many good games coming out in the next few months that it should keep me occupied until C3 comes out.

ragsy
24th Sep 2002, 23:58
instead of a mission pack just open up the game for modding

We can do all the work if they just let us!!!!

Some simple charater changes in each mission would be enough to make it interesting again... I look at levels and think wistfully what it would be like to head in with other game characters. And its not as if the story line is going to be spoilt

I mean what ever happened to Natasha in the Haiphong bonus

Red Mage
25th Sep 2002, 02:18
Nah! this game is to large to make mods for it anyway! who knows what size C3 will be, you might have to remove C2 from your hard drive anyway if you want to play your other games.

ragsy
25th Sep 2002, 02:50
Not with the price of todays hard drives

my machine has a 40Gb and a 60Gb all for less than $200US

So what if C3 is huge, there is still so much simple stuff that can be done with C2 to increase its playability....

Just think if you could pick your units, choose night or day and have a few different scenarios for each map, it should be fairly easy, and I'd even pay for such an expansion

DudeItsMe
25th Sep 2002, 02:59
I am 'bout to buy a top-of-the line 80 GB for $110!

ragsy
25th Sep 2002, 03:11
The best thing about computers is the plumeting prices, relative to the advancing technology

The 120Gb drives are getting cheaper here as well now $200

Thorup
25th Sep 2002, 09:14
Who the hell needs that much space anyway??
Do you use wave format for your music? :p

1shot1kill
25th Sep 2002, 11:40
If i would have 120 GB i would still run out of space. :(
I think they should not work on an expantion pack or mod pack, it will only slow down the production of commandos 3.

Twitch
30th Sep 2002, 17:52
I've always wondered why any popular game is not followed up with extra stuff like new missions and/or mission generators that you could buy online and download for a price. With no retail distribution costs the companies would make pure profit and make many people happy.

rickter
30th Sep 2002, 19:38
extra stuff...pure profit
not quite. takes time and money to develop this "extra stuff" and one presumes Pyro's time and money is towards C3

ragsy
30th Sep 2002, 23:24
Proifit margins would likely be far greater when developing on an existing product.

I work for a software development company and I know how expensive a brand new product can be versus revisting an existing product

1shot1kill
1st Oct 2002, 04:43
Well, that's why alot of times games are beign developed on engines made for other games, like the Quake engines.

Twitch
1st Oct 2002, 21:47
At E3 last May an industry executive whose company will remain nameless said they make simulations/games priced for Wal Mart. This means $50 max. I had asked why they don't just make a combat sim with everything to please even the hardcore gamer/simmer at say $100. I said they should make a basic one and allow online purchase of addons, extras or upgrades. "What if Wal Mart found out?" was the response. We're stuck in the 1950s never mind the internet!

Guess everyone thinks this way. Don't make anything TOO good or the retailers who are obviously running the software companies by dictum would be mad.

1shot1kill
1st Oct 2002, 23:25
Well, people rather see free things on the internet, not to mention that software distributed on the net is very easy to put up somewhere for free.

ragsy
2nd Oct 2002, 01:19
i agree with 1 shot the internet is a dangerous place to try and distribute popular software,

And that company who sells thruogh walmart obivously relies heavily on walmart for the developing dollar

To dis your distributor is like biting the hand that feeds you

1shot1kill
2nd Oct 2002, 08:37
Couple of examples of this are programs like gamespy 3d, the all seeing eye, milkshape, 3d max, they all sell registered version over the net, you pay and you get a registration key for your product by mail, im pretty sure that more than half of the people who use these products dont got a registered version.

Twitch
2nd Oct 2002, 15:24
However distributed, add-ons are welcome. Today the stigma to get a NEW, NEW, NEW title out is overwhelming. The concept that some schmoo that stumbles into WalMart and makes an "impulse purchase" is the alleged backbone of the industry. The figures of any game genre's hardcore fans is small in total sales compared with the bozo that buys a software title by the box's artwork graphics. That is sad in a way.

Where in most things in life you could say a person or company is "only as good as their last___" -fill in the blank. In software it is "they're only as good as their next title." The hoopla and hype is remarkable. When the title comes out it there is no way it can live up to expectations.

I've like combat flight sims and want very complete ones. There have been few in the past decade plus. Only the 1989 LucasFilms Secret weapons of the Luftwaffe had several addon discs purchasable in the store later adding an all new plane that integrated into the campaighn. I recall only 1993's Dynamix Aces Over the Pacific had a 1946 add-on disc since.

The more recent title IL-2 Stormovik actually had so strong an engine that they gave a FREE downlod of like 10 added planes! 3rd party addons were many since it was written in an open manner. They were obviously working on new titles too but didn't forget the loyalty of their fan base.

Addons- free or paid for- perpetuate a title's purchases much longer than if there are none. Technically the space is bought on retail shelves and in 3 months it's in the bargain bin much of the time. The developer is off onto the next thing.

If Microsoft can suck up your HD's info as to what of its products reside there and adjust to see what updates you need, it is certainly possible to log on to a software game title website and have it read what registered title you have and allow you to purchase the download/addon. If you don't have it you can't download it. That way only legal owners could buy it. Yes there could be hack sites but they do get caught. The indusrty does patrol the web so ill gotten gains would be few.

This isn't aimed at Eidos and Commandos but all games and companies in general. I'd simply like to see a stick with it attitude. C2's game engine is not outdated. In fact most all RTS titles will look fine when played 3 years from now so it's not a thing of building new stuff for old engines.

1shot1kill
2nd Oct 2002, 17:21
Sure, free patches works, every game got patches with new stuff and/or bug fixes nowadays. But when selling software people rather have something they can hold (cd, box) instead of something they downloaded and will get a registration key for after they registered.

Twitch
2nd Oct 2002, 19:49
It is still a shame that there are never any add-ons for anything beyond patches. It would be nice to walk into a retail outlet and see an addon for a game instead of wait for what they're going to make next that makes what you got OLD.

1shot1kill
2nd Oct 2002, 20:56
Well, addons make less money, they have to be cheaper and they sell less than the original product, if you start making a new product instead you got something you can ask the full price for and it might seel as good or better as the first game.

ragsy
3rd Oct 2002, 00:36
Back to my original point, let us do the modifcations

Why is the game so secret?

addons are cream for the pudding or icing on the cake (depending on where your from)

If a company spends 1million developing a game and 200,000 creating addons, and they sell the addon for half the price of the original thats a 30% margin for less sales.


= Pretty safe bet considering it costs bugger all to produce a CD

1shot1kill
3rd Oct 2002, 02:04
Yeah but why make an add-on for half the price when you can make a full game for the full price whcih got more change of selling more copies?

ragsy
3rd Oct 2002, 05:22
mmmm its six of one and half a dozen of the other...

They should just do both.

Its not like they need a creative team for add ons, just hire some contractors give them the spec and there you have it

1shot1kill
3rd Oct 2002, 09:21
They should do both yes, most of the time they dont do the addons though because they dont make as much money as a full game.

Twitch
3rd Oct 2002, 15:58
If a chap spent $50 for a simulator or game and finds a $30 add on on the shelf he'll buy it if he liked the title to begin with. Since development usually ranges from 18 months to 2 years for a title a company has considerable $$$ already invested. Thye team working on it knows the thing well during that time. The add on could be made in concert during the original release's work time and brought out 6 months or more down the line. As example they made all 3 of the Lord of the Rings movies at once but will release them in sequence over a couple years.

In 1989 when flight sim Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe came out at $50 it was high priced for the time. It would probably be $80+ today. Then they released extra add-on planes for it at like $20 each that integrated into the original and had complete missions. I recall 4 or 5 of those. Aces of the Pacific came out with a 1946 disc later that added a bunch of planes and missions to prolong the war in a "what if " scenario. Original was about $40 and the add on was $30. There's money to be made in it if software publishers so choose.

Flight simulators are much more dependent on state of the art graphics and hardware. What looks and runs great today is old news in a year or two at most. RTS games like Commandos are quite different as they do not depend on CPU and RAM power. A fair graphics card is all that's neeeded. The game engine becomes a static device that never grows old in function as the screen is not repainted every milisecond to update the action like flight simulations.

Some compainies choose to write their games in user friendly formats and encourage modders to mess with it. If even 3rd party addons are produced a game will continue to sell at retail for longer periods, hence more $$$. When the next incarnation of the game is done it already has a large fan base.

Many games/sims today have PLAIN ENGLISH files that can be changed easily and graphics files in common file extensions that anyone with scanner freeware can mod. I was modding games when they were written in code. It's a trial and error thing by hex editing. If you find a readable section in a file that says "weapons" you know what follows ( W7 QE 48 2K 2E..etc) is the data for weapons. Changing something and seeing what happens allows you to break the code as such.

As far as Commandos goes it is written in code with no hints even in Spanish in the files as to what is what. Might be fun to change some hex addresses and put a commando in a mission where he never was replacing another. Many games have mission generators that allow very complex mission creation abilities. An add-on with a mission generator and new terrain and objects would sell, and have, for many games/sims. If the code were opened 3rd party companies could produce new things. Microsoft does it with their Flight Sims and other comapnies make new stuff.

If purchasing downloads off the web is so risky that crooked folks would sell them on their sites it is a simple task in the millions of code characters to make the add-on download one time only and scramble it all to hell if it is attempted again. If you're registered and wish to download again once, no problem. And the download would still be able to install to your new computer as setup is realizing it is not being downloaded but installed only. Rotating code keys allow a download to be taken down once using a code that does not work the next time by another party. If someone tried to 'sell' it on a site it would not download without the proper new company-site key code that has already been used the one-time. If a file is attempted to be downloaded from a non-official site it would not work.

I'm told that most purchases at retail are not by guys like us. Supposedly people wander in off the streets in a daze and don't know what they want and make inpulse purchases so web selling would not work. ???? If people are purchasing a game for a PC in the 1st place they have a PC!!! And that means they have a modem and DO look around the web at places that preview and review games. Suprise game companies- most folks already know about the title they go to the retail store to buy. They certainly could buy online if given a choice if it was lower than retail. Look at how much crapola is already sold online.

1shot1kill
3rd Oct 2002, 17:47
Yeah, but no game will sell just as many copies when they bring out a sequel as when the original game came out, when they make a part 2 (or 3, 4 , whatever) then more people will buy it because not everybody wants to pay for addons (ie, the 2 HL sequels and the sequels in the C&C series) a new game can be sold for the full price and it can be sold to a larger public than just the people who got the original game.

Thorup
4th Oct 2002, 07:54
No, Command and Conquer Red Alert sold more copies than Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn

1shot1kill
4th Oct 2002, 18:03
Yes, but Red Alert is not an add-on, for the first C&C you had an add-on called the Covert Operations, for C&C Red Alert there were 2 add-ons called CounterStrike and the Aftermath.

Twitch
4th Oct 2002, 19:09
Obviuosly producers no longer believe in add-ons. But when you had a new game for $40 and have the manpower familiar with the game to be able to produce a $30 add-on it's money missed out on. 75% is always better than 0%.

1shot1kill
4th Oct 2002, 23:27
Yes, but 100% is also better than 75%...

Thorup
5th Oct 2002, 11:28
I loved the Red Alert add-ons. I bought both at once they were out.

1shot1kill
5th Oct 2002, 11:43
Me2, especially the ant missions, too bad it doesn't work with win xp. :(

Thorup
5th Oct 2002, 15:55
It doesn't???

It workes fine with me, but if you are thinking of the ant missions only, I dunno cos never tried those after getting XP.

but man, that was a fine game, very difficult. and that made it fun:)

1shot1kill
6th Oct 2002, 00:28
Nope, i couldnt even get red alert to work on win ME.

Thorup
6th Oct 2002, 10:24
huh, weird. maybe your computer is too slow:p

so you don't get into the game at all?

1shot1kill
6th Oct 2002, 15:08
No, too old probably, just like C&C, that already didnt work under win 95. I ran Red Alert on my 486 with 4 mb ram so i doubt my athlon 800 with 512 mb ram is too slow. :p

Thorup
6th Oct 2002, 16:36
Only game I don't get to work on Xp is Commandos BCD.

1shot1kill
6th Oct 2002, 19:23
There are loads of games that don't work with xp like warzone 2100 and the very first original sim city 3000 (although it does after you download 1 of the building tools.)

DudeItsMe
7th Oct 2002, 03:28
Command & Conquer are GREAT games. You always come back. I am waiting waiting waiting for another addition to the series (Preferrably the Real Time Strategy type)

I play 3 on 3's almost daily on Yuri's Revenge under the alias DudeItsMe. Come play sometime.

1shot1kill
7th Oct 2002, 03:38
C&C generals should be out soon.

Twitch
7th Oct 2002, 15:39
Re: computers...seems like yesterday that the 80386 was hot, 8 MB RAM was lots, 2 MB video cards were big and a 120 MB hard drive was huge. Now the problems are tweaking the lastest rendition of Windows to get everything to run instead of coaxing expanded, extended memory from DOS and getting enough conventional memory by loading everything "high" in config.sys!!!!

1shot1kill
7th Oct 2002, 18:31
Yeah, also compare what has happened with games in the meantime, from wolfenstein 3d to doom 3.

ragsy
7th Oct 2002, 23:49
Go back even further and I had 5 1/4 inch flopies dedicated to progams that would copy another disk, I had about eight copy programmes on as many disks. and if someone had a game it was a huge challenge to try and copy it....

DiskMuncher is a name that springs to mind :D

Suddenly when 8086's came, one 3 1/2 inch disk would perfectly copy another just using the operating system

There was a huge change from anything that era to now

Wolfienstien and Beyond Castle Wolfienstien had very little difference but compare that to Wolfeistien 3d and the difference was remarkable.

ID software IMHO invented the 3d FP shooter

1shot1kill
8th Oct 2002, 05:33
There was a game before Wolfenstein 3d that was a first person shooter, Wolfenstein wasa based on that but many people think Wolfenstein was the first.

ragsy
8th Oct 2002, 07:00
OK 1shot, after looking around my statement is still true!

While technically a game called The Catacomb Abyss came out a few months before Wolfeinstien 3D

http://www.pinnaclesoftware.com.au/temp/catacomb.gif

the game engine difference was (TCA) was 16 colours while (W3D) used 256 colours using the same engine and also used more advanced sound stuff

The clincher is that ID Software still developed it with a company called Softdisk Publishing (haven't they done well....not)

TCA was never popular and nor was the commercial sequel to W3D called Spear of Destiny

:D :p

1shot1kill
8th Oct 2002, 10:54
Hehe, i got that game, im mixing 2 games up though, this one and ken's labyrinth, although i think taht game ws not a shooter but a 3d puzzel game.

Twitch
8th Oct 2002, 15:29
Amazing what entertained us a decade ago when floppies were really floppy! :)

4Eyes
25th Oct 2002, 13:30
Don't forget 'Hugo's House of Horrors' and 'Blake Stone' those were also some of the first 3d shooters around. But you have to admit that Wolfenstein 3D really put the genre on the market.

I know all too well the joys and hates of messing with memory in config.sys. You just copied this game that was on FOUR!! disks (whoa!) then installed everything, and with shaking hands you typed in the magic word (the executable), hoping to see something really good. That didn't happen. You only got that dreaded message saying:

THIS PROGRAM REQUIRES XX Kbytes of Memory

Such frustration! Having waited all this time to play a highly anticipated game, such as Dune 2, and then getting a message like that!

Yakkalot
25th Oct 2002, 20:42
I don't think it's so much a case of publishers not wanting to produce expansions, as it is them not being able to make it fiscally viable anymore.

Todays market is fickle, you slap a game that builds little on what was avaliable ten years ago and give it a shiny new graphics engine with a bajillion poly's on screen and the masses will leap on it.

This is the reason, lets say I release a game at christmas time, pub rings "luke, we want an expansion" theres two options, do it quick in say six months and make it little more than more of the same, or take longer (a year to fourteen months) and do a substantially new pack, problem is that in a year to fourteen months, graphics have substantially improved with the latest GeForce twelve offering a new discombobulation effect particalizer and that failure of my old engine to work with that, may seriously jepordise sales.

Take il-2 FB for instance, it's very much a complete re-working on il-2, if it were published by MS they'd be calling it "il-2 2003" and releasing a new enhanced version every year or so...

bah, now i'm just ranting...