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Reaver of Souls
14th Sep 2002, 19:02
As I'm sure everyone has noticed, these forums are losing life and starting to get old and dusty and moldy :rolleyes: :p

This is no doubt due to the fact that we've dissected everything there is to dissect in the games, and there is really nothing left. :rolleyes: also, if anyone here is young enough ;) to be in school, then that slows things down a bit too.

So my question is what can we do to change this? How can we breathe some life into these forums?

Preacher
14th Sep 2002, 19:25
I made an award show...

Rook
14th Sep 2002, 22:15
I had thought about posting a thread on this very issue. I'd hate to see these forums go quiet until the next game. But I honestly can't think of anything realistic that would keep them kicking. I mean, I thought of things like the other forums I'm on have, like signature awards and art contests, but there really don't seem to be enough regular posters on these forums for that sort of thing to really take off. Of course, maybe if things like that were tried, more new people might come here. Who knows?


Originally posted by Preacher
I made an award show...

Yup, I liked that one!

:D

Reaver of Souls
14th Sep 2002, 23:39
..and i voted in it, so we *both* did our part.

Art contests and such probably won't fly too well around here, but then again Preacher's awards show is turning out to be successful, so who knows...

Lady Kreliana
15th Sep 2002, 02:11
I think things will start picking up here once we get some sort of official announcement of SR3 and/or BO3.

I'm all for contests, how about fanfic contests too? Just a thought. ^_^; Anything to help the forums become more lively again. :)

Apocrypha Roxy
15th Sep 2002, 21:46
YES! Fanfic contests! I'm in the midst of writing 2 right now, and have a few more in thought. KoolKat and I are thinking of collaborating on something (I hope) - I could use interactive feedback.

I can tell you about some of my ficcys, however. They'll range from PG to PG-13 for some strong language (in the OOC kind).

Here we go: * means I'm writing it now

Parody:
The Kain and Raz Show*
A parody of Opie and Anthony
Roxy's producer - you know that means trouble. Variety of characters and spoofs. We send Moebius on wild stunts - will he do them? What crap will we put him though? Will Vorador ever stop inviting hookers up to the studio? Stay tuned!

(Ok if you couldn't guess that one is gonna be a PG-13) :D

A Trip to Atlantic City
Raz and the boys come with me to AC for some gambling, drinking, partying, and good ol' wholesome decadence. Includes a victory dinner at Hooters, and sparks fly in one of Harrah's new luxury Bayview tower suites... hmm...

Under the Influence or I Can't Believe We DID That!
Ever wondered what it's like to be nuts? Enter Roxy and the gang as they experience insanity like never before. Aptly subtitled "Spreading the real curse". :D

First Day of School or Vamps in Tights

(Yes, Kain is going to kill me for this one...)

Yep, it's here, and LoK comes to my very own HS as we meet our teachers and victims for the very first time. Be prepared for much confusing schedule lingo and bashing of one particular teacher I hate. Also, the guys have Mr. Goring for dance as gym. That means black leotards. Yummy! ;)

Ridin' the Wave - LoK Goes to the Beach

(A little late for this, but...)

It's summer and what better way to beat the heat then a visit to the world-famous Coney Island? Rox and the crew hop on the train and take a wild ride to the beach. For the first time, the boys taste Nathan's hotdogs, surf, and tan their pale selves to a golden crisp (hopefully). Expect Dumah and Turel to get into mischief. Lots of it. (evil grin)

My Parody I have no other title for it at the moment...*
I was playing Blood Omen 2 one day at home, alone, when I fell asleep and I woke up later to see 3 very familiar faces staring at me... rudely. This chronicles my mis-adventures with Kain, Raziel, Garrett, and various supporting characters along the way. I have magical sniffles! You'll know what I mean when you read it...

Drama/Romance/Action/Adventure/Etc
The Messiah and the Pariah
Picks up at the end of Soul Reaver 2; Raziel is recouperating from nearly being sucked into the Reaver, when he discovers another creature that can shift not only from spectral to physical, but to multiple dimensions. Apocrypha Roxy: a hybrid human/succubus Dhampir; cast from the world of humans and vampires alike, jaded and vendetta-driven, becomes his guide and partner in crime as they track down Moebius, Janos' heart, and dare to take on history itself and uncover their true destinies. There is more at stake then they realize, as they experience the Great War between the Ancient Winged Race and the Hylden, and race to alter Janos' terrible fate at the closing of the Hylden portal.

0o0o0h sounds cool, right? :rolleyes: :D

Binky
16th Sep 2002, 07:21
A fanfic contest? Would it be retroactive? 'Cause I am the unhappy author of one piece... got it to Fanfiction.net some ten days ago.


A bunch of ideas for consideration:
Let's make the first edition retroactive. (Perhaps up to a year ago? Up to infinity? (Which in this case stretches up to '96, if I remember correctly?))

The categories, for now, would be either Parody or Non-Parody. The latter including all romance, drama, action/adventure... (Perhaps if there are enough fics, we could separate this into sub-categories.) Edit: Also, on-going vs. completed fics?

The awards should include those for the best original character / most in-character interpretation of Kain / same for Raziel/ Umah or Ariel on the female side of the "cast"? (For the non-parody fics, at least...)

Deadline for first-edition submissions is end of September, maybe? Voting for the following two weeks?



Anyone willing to be the objective judge? Or will simply everyone who wishes to judge, do? (In which case let's not turn this into the Oscars: everyone who votes, please read all the fics beforehand...)

How do you like these rules?

Lady Kreliana
17th Sep 2002, 16:28
I think it sounds good. Shall one of us post a topic announcing the fanfic contest? Or should we all do a little more planning first?

I think that the first fanfic contest should be retroactive for up to '96, to be fair to all authors and fanfics. The next one can be shortened.

I think that there should be two categories: Comedy and Drama (drama can include romance, action, adventure, etc. I just think it'd be a good idea to place all serious fanfics under one category. :)) and authors can submit only one fic per category.

Preacher
17th Sep 2002, 19:57
This all sounds cool. I'm going to announce the winners of the awards after I get a few more votes in. And this time, since I done it on rather short notice with NO planning, I would like some help from you guys with categories and nominations. How's that grab ya?

Binky
17th Sep 2002, 22:32
(And what shall we call the awards? The Razzies?)
Please disregard the above, 'tis just my sense of humour calling in the least appropriate moment.

Hmm... this is just another planning post; I am a widely known thread-killer, so I think someone else should be the one to announce the contest. :D


Here is the summary of the rules as I see them (for the first contest):
1. Retroactive up to '96.
2. Deadline for submissions is September 30.
3. Deadline for voting is October 20.
Note: It'll be fuzzier, of course, but we need to have some deadline. And twenty days is more or less OK, I think. Or perhaps a month, if there is a lot of fics.

4. Only completed fics are accepted; two categories: Drama and Comedy.
Note: If we aren't planning to repeat the contest, perhaps unfinished fics could also be accepted... only that each category should probably be split into two: Completed and Unfinished fics.

5. An author can submit only one fic per category.

6. All fanfics submitted as Drama are automatically nominated in the following categories (where applicable, that is):

Best Fanfic
(perhaps) Best Idea (for where the execution slightly falters)
Best Original Character
Best (meaning: most like the in-game) Kain
Best (as above) Raziel
Best Umah/Ariel (or perhaps not; I don't know how many fics with the two exist at all)

Note: Either that, or only the Best Fanfic award should exist.

The Comedy fics I see as nominated only for Best Fanfic.

7. Only at least basically preformatted fics are eligible. Also, submissions should clearly state which category the fic is submitted under.

8. On the part of the judges, if someone sets out to judge the fics in a category, the person should read all the fics in that category.

Note: 7. and 8. are kind of obvious, I know.

9. All the voting on these forums has always been done in the open; but voting by PM's would be perhaps more objective? This is the one matter I cannot offer any suggestion on. If the voting is done by PM's, I can be one of the people who will keep the records.

'Tis all I can think of now...

Umah Bloodomen
17th Sep 2002, 23:10
I think this is a cool idea, although I do have a couple of concerns with the rules here. Allow me to explain:


Originally posted by Binky
(And what shall we call the awards? The Razzies?)
Please disregard the above, 'tis just my sense of humour calling in the least appropriate moment.

You are aware that "The Razzies" already exist don't you? They were established for annual worst achievements in film. For more information check this:

http://www.razzies.com

I think your generes could be set up a bit differently. Don't limit to just Drama and Comedy. Fanfiction.net also has a lot of different genres that could apply here.

Drama
Comedy
Action/Adventure
Sci-Fi
Romance
Horror

I think we could also take multiple submissions per category like we did in the signature awards. Just because a person's fic may meet the different genres listed. Afterall, there is only one winner so this should not cause a problem.

I do agree with the fact the fics should be finished.

I don't agree with your judging system. Definately not through PM's. Given the hypothetical, biased opinions of people and their fics could come into play and the results can be rigged and there is no reason for it. Once the submissions are gathered, seperate polls can be created for each category to tally the votes that come in and list each nominee. This is the only way to be fair and non-biased. (And remember, you can set the date at which the poll will close and enable only one vote per voter etc.)

To take this idea even further, a best-overall fic category can be created after the votes have been tallied up, to include the winners of each category.

Let the people decide.

Lady Kreliana
18th Sep 2002, 01:49
I think Umah summed it up very well. :)

I think that we should just try to find some neutral parties to judge the fanfics.

Also, for such categories as best character, most in character, etc. I think it'd be best to have those as main categories rather than sub categories (by subcategories I mean having best original character for drama, action/adventure, comedy, etc. I think that there should be one overall best original character, one most IC fic, etc.)

That way we won't be stuck with a billion different categories.

Binky
18th Sep 2002, 04:50
You are aware that "The Razzies" already exist don't you? They were established for annual worst achievements in film.

Umah... That was kind of point of the joke... That's why I mentioned my odd sense of humour... :D



One point about the categories:
One: we still don't know how many fics will be entered. If it's, let's say, only twenty serious fics, why split them into sub-categories? This is why I wrote two posts before that if there are a lot of serious fics, we could split the (now it's Drama) category into sub-categories.

Note: So, perhaps, we should ask that the authors who enter for Drama give in the description the potential subcategory. Edit: We'll decide after we gather the submissions, perhaps? The potential subcategories I see are Drama, Action/Adventure and Romance. Sci-fi and Horror do not really apply here, because LoK is kind of both (or Fantasy and Horror) by default.

The one other thing is that fanfics (apart from the Comedy ones) rarely fit in one category only... they are a bit Romance, and a bit Action, and so on. This is why I agreed with her Ladyship that we should heap them all into one category.


Edit:

I think we could also take multiple submissions per category like we did in the signature awards. Just because a person's fic may meet the different genres listed.

I don't understand this, really... Do you mean that an author should be able to submit more than one fanfic, or one fanfic per subcategory, or what?


OK, so I agree with the poll idea; my only concern was with people who are, let's say - impressionable. If someone sees a fic getting a lot of votes in a poll, it is possible that the person will vote for that fic if he/she can't decide for him/herself; I have seen it happen before; this is why secret ballots have been invented at all, isn't it? To avoid bias. This was the only reason why I advocated PM's; because they are not visible to all. I did not think PMs would cause as much trouble; and I'm really thankful for the enlightenment of the favouritism PMs may brood.

Edit: Whether voting should be open or secret is the large problem since the beginnings of democracy, isn't it? :) If you consider my reasons, and consider yours, and still believe that yours are stronger, I'll withdraw.

Lady Kreliana, if there are subcategories, then I'd agree that the subawards I have given (most in-character and so on) should be for all of the drama taken together. I have thought about this matter a bit, and I think that actually having them for comedies wouldn't make sense, because they are usually so - I have trouble with describing this - detached from Nosgoth's reality and transfused with Earth's? Not to mention that people rarely bother with keeping the characters in-game in comedies!
Comedies, I think, can be judged only for Best Fanfic: Comedy.


And the last thing:

I think that we should just try to find some neutral parties to judge the fanfics.

I wholeheartedly agree; I just don't see too many people applying. Perhaps you two - or any others - have ideas for possible candidates?

Edit: one more last thing: the deadlines need to be pushed. :rolleyes:


Oh, for all the accursed rivers of the most-accursed Avernus! Third, and hopefully final, edit, because I still feel I need to explain my motives:

I think that there are two main possible courses of action.

Either we may have the authors choose what they think their best fics are: one for serious fiction (afore, under her Ladyship's influence, called Drama), one for parody/comedy. Then, we'll have few fics to judge; which will probably mean no need for subcategories of Drama.

Or, we may allow everyone to submit as many fics as possible, hopefully get a lot of fics, divide the serious fics into subcategories, choose Best Fics for subcategories (+ one Best Fic for Comedy), then choose one Best Fic for Drama.

Now, the trouble is that I would love to opt for the second, but I think that most people here are - well, busy. There's school, college, work, and so on. So I thought that we should adopt the former, to get as many people as possible to judge. That's the ultimate reason; plus, the more fics are submitted, the greater the chance that a really good fic is lost somewhere there.

-----

About the voting, continued:

Again, there is what I feel would be the optimal version of the vote. This would be that popular vote (done by polls, or whatever) chooses - let's say, three, best fics for every award; and then, someone neutral and competent chooses the best fic in every category altogether. The trouble with this is that "neutral and competent" would mean either a professor in English Literature with penchant for LoK, or Ms. Hennig, or whoever it was that wrote the script/story for the games, or some other person from Crystal Dynamics who deals with the story, OK? (I know little of professional writing, so please don't diss me here.) Neither of whom is now readily available... :D

So, for lack of this option, we can either have the vote done totally in secret - which would introduce the bias of favouritism; or openly - which would introduce the bias of inexpertise. Now, I have never organised a contest, nor taken part in it; if, from your experience, favouritism usually overwhelms inexpertise, I agree that the voting should be done openly.

And hey, it's not like the winner will actually win anything, LOL. If people cannot retain shades of objectivity in such a minor matter like this, I can only be sorry for them.

I hope this is at last the end of this accursed post.

Power reaver
18th Sep 2002, 07:31
Fanfic contest , great idea .

BTW I have started a thread dubbed "The Dum LOK fic (PR's BCs)"

Its the kind where you say a few lines , then I say , then the next person .

I have started a fic

Dumah and the conquest of the Humans.....uhhhh I mean Dumahim .

Its preety stupid , (I have not been in my funny mood lately) and Iam waiting for a reply . Have a look at it , and contribute to it if you have the time .

Another thing , can I enter my old fic in your contest , its not finished , so is it OK .

Umah Bloodomen
19th Sep 2002, 17:13
Originally posted by Binky

I don't understand this, really... Do you mean that an author should be able to submit more than one fanfic, or one fanfic per subcategory, or what?

I meant that an author can submit one entry per category, this allows for multiple entries. I know of a few individuals who have written a couple of different fics, why exclude them from entering where they can?


Originally posted by Binky
OK, so I agree with the poll idea; my only concern was with people who are, let's say - impressionable. If someone sees a fic getting a lot of votes in a poll, it is possible that the person will vote for that fic if he/she can't decide for him/herself; I have seen it happen before; this is why secret ballots have been invented at all, isn't it? To avoid bias. This was the only reason why I advocated PM's; because they are not visible to all. I did not think PMs would cause as much trouble; and I'm really thankful for the enlightenment of the favouritism PMs may brood.

Edit: Whether voting should be open or secret is the large problem since the beginnings of democracy, isn't it? :) If you consider my reasons, and consider yours, and still believe that yours are stronger, I'll withdraw.

What makes you or anyone more neutral than anyone else? Seriously, what determines who can and can't judge? Perhaps you prefer one type of story over another or perhaps you don't really like the author of a certain fic so you take the initiative to select what genre you will read and ultimately vote on, and leave the others to whomever. Again, this goes back to the biased nature I discussed earlier.

To be frank, I actually have more of a problem with the voting than I do with the categories.


Originally posted by Binky
I wholeheartedly agree; I just don't see too many people applying. Perhaps you two - or any others - have ideas for possible candidates?

For what? Judging or submitting?


Originally posted by Binky
Edit: one more last thing: the deadlines need to be pushed. :rolleyes:

Pushed to what? Earlier or back?


Originally posted by Binky
About the voting, continued:

Again, there is what I feel would be the optimal version of the vote. This would be that popular vote (done by polls, or whatever) chooses - let's say, three, best fics for every award; and then, someone neutral and competent chooses the best fic in every category altogether. The trouble with this is that "neutral and competent" would mean either a professor in English Literature with penchant for LoK, or Ms. Hennig, or whoever it was that wrote the script/story for the games, or some other person from Crystal Dynamics who deals with the story, OK? (I know little of professional writing, so please don't diss me here.) Neither of whom is now readily available... :D

Why does one have to deal specifically with the storyline to be the most neutral? More importantly, I thought this was supposed to be a "fun" thing. Why are you insisting it has to be 100% professsional and true to form? :rolleyes:



Originally posted by Binky
So, for lack of this option, we can either have the vote done totally in secret - which would introduce the bias of favouritism; or openly - which would introduce the bias of inexpertise. Now, I have never organised a contest, nor taken part in it; if, from your experience, favouritism usually overwhelms inexpertise, I agree that the voting should be done openly.

And hey, it's not like the winner will actually win anything, LOL. If people cannot retain shades of objectivity in such a minor matter like this, I can only be sorry for them.


LOL. Where does expertise come into play? Why do we all have to be English majors and whatnot to participate in such a trivial contest? :mad: For someone who "knows little of professional writing" I think it is very unfair for you to single potential voters out because of what insight they have to composition and writing. People write for fun, granted some write professionally and are experts in the field, but this is not college. I think the majority of people in this forum can tell whether or not they enjoyed reading an author's work. As long as a person can read and knows what entertains them, I think they are more than capable and not biased enough to participate in an open vote.

You've bounced back and forth between open and closed voting, which is it? I seriously could (excuse the language) give a flying **** about what categories there are or aren't. My last post was merely suggestion. Feedback (as always) is greatly appreciated.

Binky
19th Sep 2002, 19:28
What makes you or anyone more neutral than anyone else? Seriously, what determines who can and can't judge? Perhaps you prefer one type of story over another or perhaps you don't really like the author of a certain fic so you take the initiative to select what genre you will read and ultimately vote on, and leave the others to whomever. Again, this goes back to the biased nature I discussed earlier.

Forgive me, I don't really think I understand you here. I have never implied any potential limits to those who would vote/judge; why should I have? I merely said that from my experience, people who see the results of a vote in progress and are themselves undecided - hesitating between two or three choices - have a tendency to vote for the current winner; a well-known rule. This is the only reason why I wanted the results of the vote to be kept in secret until the vote is ended, tallied by two or three persons independently.


For what? Judging or submitting?
Judging. (Please look below before you respond, OK?)


Pushed to what? Earlier or back?
I'm a bit of a linguistic trouble here, LOL. Which way in time is "back"?
OK, I'll ask in another way. From the end of September to e.g. half of October is in what direction? Forward or back? (And yes, this is a serious question, I'm not joking, I really don't know.)


Why does one have to deal specifically with the storyline to be the most neutral?

I meant it more for the "competence" part. As in, for the "most in-character" awards?



More importantly, I thought this was supposed to be a "fun" thing. Why are you insisting it has to be 100% professsional and true to form?

I do not. I merely have a tendency to consider many options and scenarios before starting something; and having considered them myself, I usually put them all in my posts (that's why they are usually so long, I think). Because I have learnt from experience that if I omit some part of my reasoning, several posts later someone writes the same idea, and I have to write all the counterarguments anyway. Which is pretty annoying, since I'm usually slighly advanced in the discussion I'm having with myself by that time, and having to go back is really boring.
And, before you write that I should stop being so arrogant: I really do not mean to sound arrogant, OK? I just don't want to sound ambiguous as to my motives again.

So: I do not insist for anything to be professional. This was just a hypothetical scenario, presented here for your - and everyone else's - consideration. As was everything else in my post, BTW.

The thing is, I am not the one setting the rules here, after all. All I ever did was gave what I thought were some nice rules to begin the planning of the final rules with. Then, I simply replied to your opinion with some hypothetical rules of voting which I believed were quite reasonable in case you - and everyone else - would like the contest to be done the more professional way; simply because I did not know how strict the judgment people will want to be; and Lady Kreliana proposed that we should search for a neutral judge, so I simply elaborated slightly on her idea.

I assumed I did not need to give the more ?relaxed? rules, since I believed they did not even have to be written. (And, of course, I burnt myself on it: see two paragraphs above, LOL.)




LOL. Where does expertise come into play? Why do we all have to be English majors and whatnot to participate in such a trivial contest? For someone who "knows little of professional writing" I think it is very unfair for you to single potential voters out because of what insight they have to composition and writing. People write for fun, granted some write professionally and are experts in the field, but this is not college. I think the majority of people in this forum can tell whether or not they enjoyed reading an author's work. As long as a person can read and knows what entertains them, I think they are more than capable and not biased enough to participate in an open vote.


I repeat, I never intended to single anyone out! I gave what I believe to be the optimal combination of voting and judging in any vote, not only in this one; only on the example on this one, so as to avoid unnecessary generalisation; I never said I would be crazy enough to even try to enforce it in a contest for fun! Why would I? What for? There's no reason.
Again: I did not know how serious and objective everyone wants the vote to be, so I believed it would spare a bit of time if I pre-wrote the major options we have if we wanted to do it the more professional way, OK? I simply did not know whether people want a contest for what people like the most, or for what people think to be the best... or both. (As in: subjective vs. objective?)

If you want my personal opinion, I would like both. Simply. I would like to both vote myself for what I like the most - very subjectively, admittedly, although I'll try to be objective, AND to have someone competent judge what THEY think is the best.

Only that through that little reductio ad absurdum I tried to show that it would be pretty impossible to find a neutral and competent judge for this contest - again, to the best of my knowledge. I can survive without this part of the contest, of course; but perhaps you - or someone else - has an idea here?





You've bounced back and forth between open and closed voting, which is it? I seriously could (excuse the language) give a flying **** about what categories there are or aren't. My last post was merely suggestion. Feedback (as always) is greatly appreciated.

:D Of course I bounced back and forth; my post was, after all, a pretty accurate expression of my thoughts. Strike and counterstrike; argument and counterargument. I can give them both; just don't expect me to decide before I can imagine the chess board after several next moves, :rolleyes:
(Just a joke... I think.)

Seriously, though: My posts were merely suggestions as well; I hope you do not take them for anything else. I'm not really the one setting the rules, after all. Just presenting possibilities to anyone who cares to decide. (And I would appreciate feedback as well.)

And, forgive me: I still do not quite understand why you are so strongly against holding the results of votes in secret until the final tally.
Do you want to say that I would not be objective in tallying the votes? As in, dishonest, throwing some of the votes away? If you do not believe in my honesty, I don't have to be the judge! Choose someone you know to be honest. Sheesh.
Or is it because you feel that people sending PMs will be less objective than people voting openly? As in, voting for the people and the fanfics they like instead of the fanfics that are good, turning the contest into a popularity contest, more or less? But aren't all the votes where people vote for what entertains them essentially to a large extent popularity contests? Not to mention that there'd be nothing to stop them from putting their votes this way in a poll anyway.