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Binky
5th Sep 2002, 10:44
Well. I know that I put this idea among my "outlandish" predictions for the coming game(s), but did anyone else seriously consider this possibility? That Nosgoth's time is a loop, that is? Or at least a helix?

I mean, in BO2 (this is the reason why this topic is here at all), Kain tells the Sarafan Lord that if the Hylden would want to try to return to Nosgoth, he would be waiting; with the Soul Reaver, presumably. But let's take the Nosgoth that Kain and Raziel abandon in SR1: no Kain; no Reaver; no restored Pillars. Only (potentially) the Turelim and (even less probably) the Razielim to defend the world from the Hylden.

There are tiny bits of funny circumstantial evidence for this, which probably don't mean anything, of course, but still...
For instance, in the SR2 forges, there are quite often carvings/statues of who appears to be Raziel. This may mean absolutely nothing; or may be testimony to the prophetic abilities of the ancients; or may be testimony to what the vampires from the previous screw of the helix remember Raziel to have been...
Or take the Elder God, who seems intent on turning a certain "Wheel of Fate".
Or take Moebius, pretty laid back about his own death in both BO1 and SR2; what if he knew he would be reborn?
Or take Moebius again, who for all of SR2 wants Raziel to kill Kain; but in the time before Raziel's first appearance in SR2 (i.e. SR2's end) seems to have forgotten this: what if he did not see the future, but remember the past from the previous cycle, and assumed that since Raziel has always killed Kain, he has done it also this time?
Or take Moebius again: so why does he precisely want Kain dead in SR2? So that the Pillars in the far future (after-SR1 future) may be potentially restored when the Hylden return? And so that everything would be as it has always been?
Or take BO2 again... Or perhaps not; I think that some part of BO2 happened even before SR1 (perhaps only the Hylden invasion, but without the part of using Janos to power the Mass), but... well, that's only my opinion.

So: did anyone else think of this possibility? Because, the funny thing is, I tried to find a reason why Nosgoth's time should not be a loop, and found none. :D

Umah Bloodomen
6th Sep 2002, 01:25
Originally posted by Binky
Well. I know that I put this idea among my "outlandish" predictions for the coming game(s), but did anyone else seriously consider this possibility? That Nosgoth's time is a loop, that is? Or at least a helix?

I mean, in BO2 (this is the reason why this topic is here at all), Kain tells the Sarafan Lord that if the Hylden would want to try to return to Nosgoth, he would be waiting; with the Soul Reaver, presumably. But let's take the Nosgoth that Kain and Raziel abandon in SR1: no Kain; no Reaver; no restored Pillars. Only (potentially) the Turelim and (even less probably) the Razielim to defend the world from the Hylden.

Your "helix idea" would put the altered timelines into a better perspective however I am finding a few minor flaws with it. Allow me to explain.

The Nosgoth that was "abandoned" by Kain and Raziel in SR1 would not be defenseless. There is no evidence that the Turelim still exist after Raziel's first tread through the territories. (Meaning he killed them all on the way presumably). There is no evidence to suggest the exact whereabouts of the Razielim either. (Whether they are dead, in another dimension etc.). Kain "abandoned" Nosgoth by means of the Chronoplast. Obviously he knew how to use the device and probably discovered them and how to use them post BO2 / pre SR1. (Hence why he fled through them). This would give Kain the opportunity to return to whenever the Hylden return. (His only problem would be to pinpoint when exactly that occurs, which during his time streaming, I am sure he would stumble upon eventually). It is all a matter of backtracking. With the Chronoplast, if he messed up and failed to defend Nosgoth against the Hylden, he'd merely have to return to when he'd have a second chance. Picture it as a VCR when one hit's rewind to replay certain aspects of a video.


Originally posted by Binky
There are tiny bits of funny circumstantial evidence for this, which probably don't mean anything, of course, but still...
For instance, in the SR2 forges, there are quite often carvings/statues of who appears to be Raziel. This may mean absolutely nothing; or may be testimony to the prophetic abilities of the ancients; or may be testimony to what the vampires from the previous screw of the helix remember Raziel to have been...[quote]

The origins and the significance of the statues appearing like Raziel haven't been revealed yet. It is pretty safe to assume IMO, that they originated from the Ancients. I mentioned in another thread that I believed the Ancients to share some sort of precognative abilities. (Which would make them serve as prophets in a sense). I feel that it is becoming clearer by the minute, that Raziel originated as an ancient and could have been most likely reincarnated into a Sarafan, oblivious to his destiny until his death as the fanatical priest. For one to hold the power of the world in their soul, as an Ancient, I would do my damndest to conceal it however I could. Janos told Raziel his destiny in SR2 - plans like that just don't happen overnight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Binky
Or take the Elder God, who seems intent on turning a certain "Wheel of Fate".

Squiddy can turn the wheel because there is no one to stop him...yet. His origins and motives haven't been disclosed and Raziel is too busy exploring all the details surrounding what he's been spoonfed to turn against Squiddy this early in the game. Providing the theories that Squiddy is infact, Hash'ak'gik, Moebius would stop at nothing to ensure his survival and victory in Nosgoth, Vorador probably wouldn't know or care about it, Kain may be ticked and go after him again, and I believe Raziel would aid him to do so (after the holes in the story have been filled). Squiddy is living on cloud nine beneath the Pillars right now, because he is getting away with murder and no one is saying anything about it.


Originally posted by Binky
Or take Moebius, pretty laid back about his own death in both BO1 and SR2; what if he knew he would be reborn?

I don't believe that Moebius was reborn at all. I merely think he was tipped off (probably by his Dark God, Hash'ak'gik) of the events we have seen and was able to secure himself within the threads of time. He is a Time Streamer afterall. There has to be some perks with the position. :p
He knew when he would die, when Raziel would die and be reborn, knew when and what Kain was doing at all times. How? Because he was there. The Chronoplast has that technology. The Moebius that died in BO1 still existed during the end of SR2. This allowed him plenty of time to "Time Stream" around to secure his existence.


Originally posted by Binky
Or take Moebius again, who for all of SR2 wants Raziel to kill Kain; but in the time before Raziel's first appearance in SR2 (i.e. SR2's end) seems to have forgotten this: what if he did not see the future, but remember the past from the previous cycle, and assumed that since Raziel has always killed Kain, he has done it also this time?Or take Moebius again: so why does he precisely want Kain dead in SR2? So that the Pillars in the far future (after-SR1 future) may be potentially restored when the Hylden return? And so that everything would be as it has always been?


Moebius is really good at "hiding" things. (although you can always tell he has something up his sleeves). You must take into account that he is still the Time Streamer and has the advantage of knowing certain future events. I will give Moebius the upperhand at knowing the whos, whens and hows. Moebius did see the future, but he didn't see the change in the past. As Raziel said, Kain is merely a wild card who stands in the way of Moebius and Squiddy's agendas. Kain is finding out too much information and is conveying that information to Raziel. The plans of Squiddy and Moebius are thrown all off.

Take this dialogue for example:



Raziel:

Your arguement is disingenuous, Time-Streamer.
I cannot see how killing or sparing Kain's future self would alter these events. This wasteland was created by Kain's original refusal at the Pillars - and admist all these twists and turns, that event has never changed.
You are cunning, Moebius - but I think you've gotten tangled in your own web.

Moebius:

As Kain clings to his precious seat of power, the Pillars sink into a mire of decay, dragging all of Nosgoth down with them!

Raziel:

I don't think this has anything to do with the Pillars or Kain's failure to sacrifice himself.
I think you're simply afraid - because you don't know what he's up to. He's a wild-card, isn't he, and you don't want his influence in your game. Which is why you wanted me to eliminate him.
Now that he's survived, you have no idea what's coming, do you? Maybe for the first time in your entire life You're terrified that he may truly have found a third option out of the dilemma you orchestrated for him.

Moebius:

Kain's lies have addled your mind.
Leave this place, and trouble my spirit no more!


Originally posted by Binky
Or take BO2 again... Or perhaps not; I think that some part of BO2 happened even before SR1 (perhaps only the Hylden invasion, but without the part of using Janos to power the Mass), but... well, that's only my opinion.

You are aware that all of BO2 does occur pre SR1 aren't you? It happens 400 years post BO1 and 100 years pre SR1. The speculated time of enslavement for Janos was about 200 years post BO1.

My compliments to Ardeth Silvereni for keeping an excellent script of the series and to Jeffers and Azrael for a copy of Jeffers' reconstructed timeline. (Which you can find here)

LOK Timeline Reconstruction by Jeffers. (http://www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timeline.html)

Binky
6th Sep 2002, 06:44
Thanks for the answer, Umah!

Only that well, I'm sorry to ask, but did you understand me correctly?

I meant to say that the whole history of Nosgoth is a loop; that is that when the Hylden return and will be fighting whomever is still in Nosgoth, if Kain were dead, killed by Raziel in William's chapel, and not there to return to aid - again - whomever was there, it could be possible that the war would end with - let's say - the creation (or possibly re-creation) of a certain Reaver, the raising (or re-raising) of certain Pillars (Kain would be dead, remember!), and cursing (or re-cursing) of certain vampires. (With the really nice subpart that the bloodlust of the Reaver would be somehow the vampires' bloodlust extracted from them for the price of their immortality.) That's all.


Then, certainly, Raziel would be an Ancient. :D

Then, let's say with the (re-)raising of the Pillars, a cycle would be ended: the wheel of fate would turn (whatever THIS means). And everyone would be reborn, only to repeat this cycle forever.
This, I see, would make Moebius the force driving towards stabilisation of the world, and a natural enemy to Kain and Raziel. (Because with the world stable, he would know that he would be reborn to rule Nosgoth again... and reborn to rule Nosgoth again... and so on.) Same goes for the squid.




And now, for the last part... OK, when I wrote that parts of BO2 happen before SR1, I did not really mean the literal sequence of events. More like: I think that it happens even in the timeline unaltered by the events of SR2; only not all of it. More specifically, I think that the Hylden invasion does happen (since the rift in dimensions that allowed the Hylden to return is explicitly stated in the game to have been caused by Kain's BO1 decision); only that the subplot with Janos being used to power the Mass does not (TSL does appear to be quite a resourceful creature: perhaps he would simply use the Ward Gates to divide the vampires and kill them off slowly, as opposed to in one move?). This would mean that the most important result of the game is Janos' banishment to the Hylden dimension, which again possibly would have bearing on the Hylden returning to Nosgoth in the after-SR1 times; but since this is only my opinion, one would be prudent to disregard this completely, of course.

Umah Bloodomen
6th Sep 2002, 19:25
Originally posted by Binky
Thanks for the answer, Umah!

Only that well, I'm sorry to ask, but did you understand me correctly?

You're quite welcome, Binky. Although I found your post a little choppy and really not too specific in spots, but I did my best to sort out what you were trying to speculate. Forgive me if I seemed a bit off on certain aspects of your post. :)



Originally posted by Binky
I meant to say that the whole history of Nosgoth is a loop; that is that when the Hylden return and will be fighting whomever is still in Nosgoth, if Kain were dead, killed by Raziel in William's chapel, and not there to return to aid - again - whomever was there, it could be possible that the war would end with - let's say - the creation (or possibly re-creation) of a certain Reaver, the raising (or re-raising) of certain Pillars (Kain would be dead, remember!), and cursing (or re-cursing) of certain vampires. (With the really nice subpart that the bloodlust of the Reaver would be somehow the vampires' bloodlust extracted from them for the price of their immortality.) That's all.

So let me get this straight. Your "loop theory" is similar to that of a video games replay value? Actually let me rephrase that, a certain destiny is written, it is completed, then it restarts again back at square one only to be recompleted to accomplish a different goal and receive a different outcome? Some aspects of the original destiny would be similar in the new one, others would change. (Take Silent Hill & Resident Evil or Chrono Cross for example and how you can go through these games, their original stories and paths, complete them, start over and have certain paths changed and different endings received).

Sheesh I hope this made any damn sense whatsoever. LOL :p ;)

My question is, how is this actually accomplished? I mean what determines what aspects of the original destiny return for a second go around? What factors enable the Hylden to return and not a new force to be reckoned with? What determines the fact that the Pillars or the Reaver are even created (or recreated) at all? (I mean maybe the second go around would involve a battle axe or something instead of a sword). :p What if the vampires never became vampires? (I hope you see where I am heading with this ;) ).

In video games, we know that certain aspects of our play will result in achieving the different outcomes etc. The only individuals of the LOK series who would know this type of information appear to be Kain (because he explained the time rift in William's Chapel and has insight of the changed histories because of the Chronoplast), Janos (unsure how he knows this information but it could be because of his supposed precognative nature) and Moebius (for the same reason as Kain - time streaming - and perhaps through Hash'ak'gik).

In video games, there is always one ultimate outcome (and true ending) at the time of completion. Does the same hold true here? Will finding the true ending end the vicious cycle and disband Nosgoth's helix?



Originally posted by Binky
Then, certainly, Raziel would be an Ancient. :D

It is becoming more obvious each day that Raziel was originally an ancient. I surely hope this will be confirmed soon. I would assume this occured through both reincarnation (meaning he was born an ancient, and perhaps magic was used on him during the time of the Ancients vs. Hylden war/ He was killed then, with Janos (and maybe the other surviving ancients at the time) knowing he would eventually be reborn at a specific time, in a specific form, and would fufill a specific purpose. Sure, sounds odd at this point, but take Superman for example - his planet was being destroyed, his parents sent him off to Earth during a time of chaos and panic - to ensure their race would go on, and that Superman would have a chance to survive. Superman became the hero as he grew up. Janos said himself, his race died out, and vampires were no longer born. Could he have sacrificed one of his own to prevail over the evil later on?


Originally posted by Binky
Then, let's say with the (re-)raising of the Pillars, a cycle would be ended: the wheel of fate would turn (whatever THIS means). And everyone would be reborn, only to repeat this cycle forever.
This, I see, would make Moebius the force driving towards stabilisation of the world, and a natural enemy to Kain and Raziel. (Because with the world stable, he would know that he would be reborn to rule Nosgoth again... and reborn to rule Nosgoth again... and so on.) Same goes for the squid.

Again, which factors determine who is reborn and who isn't? (The combinations on the wheel must work out to accomplish something). Moebius isn't a driving force in anything other than his cutthroat citizen army. His intentions are the same as those of his god - Hash'ak'gik. He merely wants to save his own butt and views Hash's way as the only way. Hash obviously has a problem with Kain - for the fact he was to take over for Ariel - whom Hash took out of the picture early on in order to corrupt the circle and give him the advantage over Nosgoth (for whatever reasons). With Kain to assume the role of Balance guardian, Hash had another obstacle to contend with - which he did and failed (at least in his spiritual form). Moebius was set back at whatever was to be rewarded to him for being so loyal to Hash at that point. Kain wasn't Moebius' enemy until after he discovered who he was (and witnessed him execute Vorador). Moebius plays a very good "Devil's Advocate" IMO, hoping that things will fall into his and Squiddy's favor.



Originally posted by Binky
And now, for the last part... OK, when I wrote that parts of BO2 happen before SR1, I did not really mean the literal sequence of events. More like: I think that it happens even in the timeline unaltered by the events of SR2; only not all of it. More specifically, I think that the Hylden invasion does happen (since the rift in dimensions that allowed the Hylden to return is explicitly stated in the game to have been caused by Kain's BO1 decision); only that the subplot with Janos being used to power the Mass does not (TSL does appear to be quite a resourceful creature: perhaps he would simply use the Ward Gates to divide the vampires and kill them off slowly, as opposed to in one move?). This would mean that the most important result of the game is Janos' banishment to the Hylden dimension, which again possibly would have bearing on the Hylden returning to Nosgoth in the after-SR1 times; but since this is only my opinion, one would be prudent to disregard this completely, of course.

There was another thread where the fact that BO2 occurs in both an altered and unaltered timeline. (I'll try and look that up). The Hylden invasion isn't the full invasion at this point (BO2). Janos states that. It isn't clear what happened in the 400 years following BO1. Janos could've been captured by TSL when he returned to Nosgoth - we obviously know that Janos was brought back to life sometime during this period. 400 years is a long time and a lot can happen. (Hopefully SR3 will let us see that). I can't say whether or not Janos becoming the Beast occurred on the altered or unaltered timeline at this point. (That other thread I mentioned suggested another time shift in the middle of BO2).

I think the reason behind TSL taking out small amounts of vampires was because he didn't want to risk losing any of his troops. I am sure he learned something from the original war and decided not to make the same mistakes twice. :p

I am not clear on where you are getting your "Janos being banished to the Hylden dimension" comment. Please elaborate more. (on how this happens exactly).

Time Streamer
6th Sep 2002, 20:34
But more or less imo, the BO2 explains why there aren't any demons in SR1 period.

L_Master562
6th Sep 2002, 23:01
Wasn't this text in the game Soul Reaver?

"Where Time is but a loop,
A loose stitch in the universal cloth,
A Streamer might seize upon a chance, a fatal slip -
And plunge the fate of planets into chaos..."

I guess reality in its creation just loops. To travel through time you just have to go to the future after time hits the beggining again. Odd. It is something I have thought as being important. I think altering the timeline alters the loop making it differ from all the similar others. I think the way Umah Bloodomen explained it is the best way and the way I felt since I first beat Sr1. I have used a similar analogy in the past. I knew that line was importent and gave insight into the future of the LoK series. "A Streamer might seize upon a chance, a fatal slip....". That sure sounds like Moebius. There can only be a "slip" in the timeline when two Reavers are involved. That means Mob could have easily tricked both Raz and Kain into carrying out his plan without them knowing. The Hylden trap might not have been all Hylden in origin. Oh, no it most likely wasn't.

N0V4
7th Sep 2002, 11:29
hehehe,you can be a fan since 96 like me and still get surprised every day on the boards.

This serie is becoming like Star Wars and Star Trek....make a movie or a tv serie about it and BAM.
We are there.
*thinks about movie for LoK*
Who is going to be the perfect actor for Kain?
Ahhh I can only dream of the LoK movies.
Looks like only the damn Tomb raider got a movie GRRRRRR

Binky
7th Sep 2002, 14:07
Umah: Well then, forgive me for my illegibility. :) I'll try to do better this time. Which, coincidentally, will mean that this post will be really long; again, sorry. And excuse me for my occassionally pathetic English, for that matter.

First, the last part of your post, so that I'll have it done with, since the matter has little bearing on the other parts. This will go in italics, so it will be easily omittable.

I am aware of the multitude of threads on whether BO2 occurs in the original or altered timeline... that's why I didn't want to get into this matter again here, and I said that my opinion was only an opinion, and so irrelevant. (Although this thread is all simply amusing speculation anyway, so I don't know why I so singled out this one piece... let's not get into deep psychological analysis of my reasons here, shall we? ;) )

So, anyway, to settle this matter, my train of thought goes like this:
(1)TSL's appearance in Nosgoth (+that of some other Hylden) was the result of Kain's BO1 decision. Meaning that it probably happened in the unaltered timeline. But TSL's plan for achieving domination in Nosgoth appears to actually consist of two parts: (i)using the Nexus Stone to power the Glyphs to kill/divide vampires, and (ii)using Janos for the Device/the Mass. Then, when enough Glyphs were active, the two plans would converge.
My assumption is that had Janos not been there, TSL would probably attempt to - and perhaps, but for Kain, even manage - to kill off the vampires and humans slowly anyway: the Cabal didn't look like they were doing too well, did they?

(2)SR2's end gives that Janos' revival is a "bad" thing, and unexpectedly so for Kain. This means that either (a)his revival is a bad thing altogether, or that (b)his revival in conjunction with his and Raziel's continued existence is a bad thing.
Now, who could attempt to revive Janos? Either Raziel in the altered timeline, in which case Janos is alive only in the altered timeline; or someone else (perhaps TSL/the Seer), in which case he is alive in both timelines. In the first case, Kain's SR2's attempt to warn Raziel is to prevent him from reviving Janos; in the second, to induce him to prevent someone else from doing this.

Now, my further assumption - a very limiting one, I admit - is that it's Raziel. This is really more of a feeling I have, based on what I feel Raziel's character to be; and on the doubt whence TSL would know that there is a conveniently located body and heart nearby. A feeling, and therefore highly insubstantial.

(3)And hence, my further feeling is that (1)+(2) implies that the only difference between unaltered and altered timelines' BO2 would be Janos getting thrown into that portal. Which, coincidentally, would have no bearing on the present, but since (assuming the Seer is Hylden, which is not said explicitly in the game, if I remember correctly, but which - again - feels right) we know that the blood of Hylden and vampires can mix, enhancing the recipient's abilities, might have some bearing on the future. Finis.



Unless I forgot the tag, the following should not be in italics:


So let me get this straight. Your "loop theory" is similar to that of a video games replay value? Actually let me rephrase that, a certain destiny is written, it is completed, then it restarts again back at square one only to be recompleted to accomplish a different goal and receive a different outcome? Some aspects of the original destiny would be similar in the new one, others would change. (Take Silent Hill & Resident Evil or Chrono Cross for example and how you can go through these games, their original stories and paths, complete them, start over and have certain paths changed and different endings received).

Almost there, only precisely the opposite, LOL. :D

Nosgoth's history appears to be inherently deterministic, doesn't it? "Free will is an illusion", and so on. In fact, in the lengthy thread about just what happens at the end of SR2, I argued that perhaps there are only very few moments in space, and especially time, where history can be changed at all, where chaos and indeterminism kicks in.
Meaning: let's assume that there exists a set of initial conditions, the result of these special times, the "checkpoints". (Side note: I know that in real life quite often two deterministic systems with the same set of initial conditions produce different results, but this is due to accumulation of error, I think. (Forgive me, I've had only the very basics of chaos theory, and that was in high school, many years ago.))
OK, let's assume that there is an entity - an Elder God, for instance - who wants the world to remain always the same, so that everything would always be set as it has always been. Because of the inherent determinism of history, all that needs to be accounted is the set of initial values. Right? Everything else is pretty insubstantial.
And let's say that there is a Time Streamer, who, because of his job, is probably the only other person around to know that everything that happens, already happened; and also wants everything to stay the same: because he happens to be the god's servant, for instance... Or because he knows that as long as everything stays the same, he will be reborn to rule Nosgoth in its prime again in mere several thousand years.

Of course, as you wrote, what would break the loop of repeating time, for better or worse, would be the changing of this set of conditions.


(The combinations on the wheel must work out to accomplish something).

Well, actually my loop theory is precisely the opposite: that the wheel always remains the same... until, that is, the "I serve no one" Kain, fed up with having to serve history, will manage to break the vicious circle. 'Tis all: I will not bore you with repeating what I wrote in my previous posts.


I mean what determines what aspects of the original destiny return for a second go around? What factors enable the Hylden to return and not a new force to be reckoned with? What determines the fact that the Pillars or the Reaver are even created (or recreated) at all? (I mean maybe the second go around would involve a battle axe or something instead of a sword).

Side note: of course, I did not actually mean to say that there exists a starting point. What I rather meant was more like: let's assume that after SR1, Nosgoth is inhabited only by some vampires and humans, and the Hylden return (return simply because they can and want to). Then let's say that after a long war, some bright vampire remembers that - well - there once stood some Pillars, and there once existed a certain sword. The vampires try to create the sword. (Hey, perhaps even some shards of the Reaver remained after Kain shattered it on Raziel. Yes, I don't think so, either, it didn't look like this.) And it turns out that well, it can be done, the sword will not be as powerful, but almost, and if properly imbued with elemental powers, and used with the Pillars, could combat the power of this irritating Nexus Stone and banish those pesky creatures once and forever. So, they try to re-raise the Pillars and find out that they can, 'cause long ago, Kain is dead. But the Reaver can be used with the Pillars only by a vampire who does not lust blood, and they have all by this time been cursed. They know that there once has been another type of vampire, and their Time Streamer tells them that he will come to Nosgoth again, so they put up statues of what they remember him to look like. See? Same initial conditions coupled with determinism cause the same outcome.

Now I know that this all potentially makes little sense, but I thought it would provide some amusement to see how some game facts can be twisted to get a really strange outcome. :)

Another side note:

It is becoming more obvious each day that Raziel was originally an ancient.

??? Excuse me? Could you care to elaborate?


Oh well. Can someone explain to me why I always write so much about the blue guy of LoK and so little about my favourite one? Now that's the real question I have to ponder.

Vamperic
8th Sep 2002, 12:19
Strange when you think about it,

What if everything is predestined and free will really ios an illusion if so we are not responsible for our actions and life really has no meaning.
And when time ends time will begin once again and we will live our lives exactly as before.

Time Streamer
8th Sep 2002, 13:16
That would be silly and boring to the powers-that-be (whatever they are). Some things might be predestined, but there has to be enough random factors to cause unexpected twists to make things interesting and different.

Nosgoth's fixed destiny thing feels partially stupid, but SR2 clearly introduced some random factors which change/changed the shape of things. It's nice to know not all things in Nosgoth are firmly fixed on a single course.