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TG_Syd
4th Sep 2002, 04:51
Why didn't Kain follow Razial into the spectral realm at the end of SR2? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Kain have "Shift at will", the evolved version of Razial's ability.

Anubis_Orr
4th Sep 2002, 08:08
The Shift at Will ability is what Raziel would have gained from defeating Kain it does not necessarily mean that Kain can go to and from spectral at will.... but this is a matter of great controversy, in another thread Kain can be seen entering spectral just before he transports to a different location, but this is only a momentary "intrusion" into spectral....

So in short :) it's unknown whether Kain can or can't enter spectral at will for an extended time.

TG_Syd
4th Sep 2002, 08:21
In the proluge of SR2 Kain uses the ability to get from one location to another(I assume thats what you were talking about) but because time stops in spectral there's no way to determine whether he was in spectral for ten seconds or ten minutes.

Anubis_Orr
4th Sep 2002, 08:38
Actually it's been discussed at great length that time in spectral does not in fact stop.... it's slowed a great deal but not stopped, and as for Kain's/Vorador's ability to tranport over distances I believe it's of a different nature than Raziel shifting to spectral. They merely appear where they chose to be (much like using a warpgate or any shifting dais in BO)

TempySmurf
4th Sep 2002, 09:40
I've always wanted to comment on this in other threads. If you consider BO1, Kain sees spectral beings around him. If you killed someone, Kain could see their spectral form. I assumed that when Kain followed Raziel in SR1 that this was just the same ability that he has in BO1 or a greater version of it. I always assumed that he kind of existed in both places at once, being sort of "undead", or could see beings in the spectral realm or something to that effect. Shifting directly into the spectral realm still wouldn't have been important, because according to BO1, he should see Raziel in his spectral form without doing anything at all.

If there are theories that say something to counter this, I'd sure love to hear them.

Anubis_Orr
4th Sep 2002, 09:58
Yeah but Raziel is unique and he is more "extremely spectral" than any other creature or being ever has been.

But I really have no idea either way if Kain can see him or not in spectral, even if he can I strongly doubt that he can interact with him.

TempySmurf
4th Sep 2002, 10:16
"extremely spectral"

I don't think I buy that.. at least not without something to back it up. He can be spectral and physical.. I don't see how that makes him "more spectral".

Anubis_Orr
4th Sep 2002, 10:36
It's a matter of control.... he can control whether or not he is physical or spectral and no other creature can do that, they're just bound to nosgoth to feed on souls for the most part (sluaghs, etc)

Lozza Mate
4th Sep 2002, 11:52
I believe Kain can shift in and out of the spectral realm at will (or at least, this was the original intent in SR1)

however when a being with this shifting ability shifts to spectral realm, time in material is frozen (and vice-versa). therefore it is almst impossble for to two shift-able beings to enter the spectral realm at the same time (unless both beings shift at EXACTLY the same time, the other is frozen untill they shift back)

Uggabugg
4th Sep 2002, 13:50
time cuoldnt possibly stop in the material realm. if it did raziel would emerge exatly the same time kain throwed him in the abyss, unless raziel used 1000years to die.
hm come to think about it raziel did kikc and scream almost untill he hit bottom, then emerging in the eldergods chamber emediatly after, or did he?

TempySmurf
4th Sep 2002, 15:59
Where'd this theory about time standing still in the physical world when you're in the spectral world come from?

The demons sure didn't have much trouble shifting to the spectral world shortly after Raziel does. Just long enough for them to say.. "hey, where'd he go".. and then shift..

but that still doesn't address Kain's ability to see and kill "people" in their spectral form without any shifting wot so ever in BO1.

Uggabugg
4th Sep 2002, 17:04
the teories comes from the fact that if you drop something in material realm and shift before it drops to the ground it will stic in mid air until you shift back. wont drop intil you do.

Azrael
4th Sep 2002, 23:08
I think the fact Kain sees spirits in BO1 is because he's still a fledgling, i mean, his contact to the living world is still weak so he somehow dwells in the two worlds, and this could be possible since he was ressurected as a vampire by necromancy....

Lozza Mate
5th Sep 2002, 07:28
Originally posted by TempySmurf
Where'd this theory about time standing still in the physical world when you're in the spectral world come from?

The demons sure didn't have much trouble shifting to the spectral world shortly after Raziel does. Just long enough for them to say.. "hey, where'd he go".. and then shift..

but that still doesn't address Kain's ability to see and kill "people" in their spectral form without any shifting wot so ever in BO1.

The elder God himself informed Raziel of this in SR1, it's also in the manuel, and you can see it in-game.

about the demons: that's a gameplay element and has no baring on the plot or the 'physics' CrystalD came up with for shifting.

Time did not freeze when Raziel was thrown in the abyss because he died of 'natural' causes. Only when the shift glyph is used does the freeze-time effect come into play. Otherwise time would have frozen for eternity once the first living being in nosgoth was killed.

and the Kain in BO1 seeing ghosts is also a non-issue like in the demon thing, it's a game-play element implemented in order to let the player regain magic quicker. it has no plot relation at all.

Anubis_Orr
5th Sep 2002, 09:55
Lozza forgot to add these

TempySmurf
5th Sep 2002, 10:08
I read over the dialogue for Soul Reaver, cause I don't actually have the game anymore, and I saw no reference to time standing still. If you could quote where he says this. As well as for the manual, it would be appreciated.

I think that saying that the Demons and Kain seeing "people" in their spectral form is just part of the game play and not the story is rather absurd. You could say that about almost everything in the game. The games tend to explain or give reference to how everything works together and have it all make sense while still keeping you guessing. Of course it was for game play, but those would still be the attributes that the demons and kain would carry, to suggest otherwise is to ignore the foundation of the game itself and voiding the completeness of the LOK universe. Intentionally breaking the rules of their universe and planes and / or dimensions doesn't make sense with the the way they've tried to make everything else complete.

As far as him only seeing spirits because he's a fledgling is a far stretch, I don't buy it. There's nothing that suggests this other than him not seeing any "spirits" in BO2. But he could have always lost that ability during his "sleep", which would explain a few things.

and i'll get to gore when lozza can show me where it mentions anything about time standing still.

Lozza Mate
5th Sep 2002, 10:09
Anubis_Orr forgot to add these

:rolleyes:

TempySmurf
5th Sep 2002, 10:16
Damn, we almost posted at the same time..

Lozza Mate
5th Sep 2002, 10:22
hmm, looks like I got it wrong about the Elder God explaining to Raziel about the time freeze, sorry about that.

however it does occur in-game and you'll find through use of the 'shift at will' cheat or just normal shifting.

and it is also clearly stated in the PSX SR1 manual: Page 9, paragraph 4

TempySmurf
5th Sep 2002, 10:29
Okay.. I'll say it again.. I don't have the game.. that means I don't have the manual.. the page number doesn't mean anything to me..

and explain how using the shift at will cheat proofs that time stops besides your weapon being suspended.. which can be explained without stopping time.. I just want to make sure I understand you fully and we have all the facts in order.

Lozza Mate
5th Sep 2002, 10:56
go up to an enemy, let him take a shot at you, when he is in mid 'slam' shift. walk around behind where he would be and then shift back, you'll find him in the exact same possision you left him in: completeing his attack.

the manual:
http://home.iprimus.com.au/vieux1/manual.jpg

TempySmurf
5th Sep 2002, 11:15
Alright, good enough...

It does say that some of the leaders of the clans can shift.. so can kain and the demons.. so if time stands still in the material plane.. how can they shift to the spectral plane.. My guess would be that being that far advanced, and being made from souls themselves, they can shift themselves just as Raziel does. The only difference is that they can shift at will and can reenter their own bodies. I'm assuming that their spectral form enters the spectral plane and not their physical form. And the demons could have the same properties or any number of other explainations.


Here's a random thought, what's the likelihood that Raziel could shift or take over someone else's body in the physical world by shifting inside of them or just taking over his body. What if Kain used Raziel's soul in the spectral plane to create another vampire.. thus Raziel could have a permanent physical body again. And what would happen to the soul reaver?

Anubis_Orr
5th Sep 2002, 12:02
No, I don't have any problems with people pointing out holes in theories or things that go towards disproving them. But when you're talking to someone else and presenting everything you say as proven fact then I do have a problem.... Who are you to decide what's a "non-issue" or "has no baring" already many things that have seemed insignificant have been confirmed to hold a deeper meaning (Kain's earring, statues, etc).

And my earlier post wasn't meant to be offensive to you I was just pointing out to anybody else who was reading this topic that it was an opinion.

Now as for the time standing still in spectral issue... even though it does state in the manual that time does stand still is of little relevance imo, because if time in spectral is actually moving much much faster than time on the material plane it would seem to anyone able to switch planes that nothing had changed since they were last there, it's a matter of perspective... And just to keep it simple in the manual they may have just stated that time stops because a lot of younger kids play this game and may not understand the concept of time shifts on different planes.

garbagefanuk
5th Sep 2002, 17:41
I agree partly with smurfo :)

I think when u shift to the spectral realm time does stand still but only for beings of that plane. Demons and stuff from another dimention will not be affected cos there from another plane. Melchiah was the only boss that could shift. altho zephon could shift for a second or so but not do anything. I doubt kain can shift (which is what this disscusion is all about :p ) as if he could then he would have shifted at the end of SR2 when raziel falls to the spectral realm. Kain might be a god in the sense of power terms but he's not a spectral creature like Raziel and the demons. He's still just a vampire

Lozza Mate
6th Sep 2002, 07:50
time being faster in spectral, making it seem like material is frozen doesn't quite work. using the same method I mentioned earlier you'll notice the same effect works in reverse: if you shift to material, the spectral realm is frozen in time.

as far as the demons and other enemies shifting goes, I see it as just a game-play element, this is after all a game and therefore they must sometimes break the plot a little to make the game better. for example the crystals mounted about the time-streaming chamber and main gates to the saraphan strong hold; why on earth would humans make their doors openable to only a person who had the light reaver (ie: only Raziel, and no humans at all) ? it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't fit the plot very well. yet they had to put this is for game-play element reasons.

however if they had to come up with a reason for this I was expect it's something like this:

since the freeze time thing only happens through the use of the shift glyph (not dieing from natural causes etc.) it may stand to reason that any other being who has use of the shift glyph is immune to the time freezing effects of the glyph. however this still doesn't quite add up.

also: Kain's earing is of no matter to the plot, sure it's Vorador's ring and it played a small role in BO1 and it was a nice touch for crystalD to add it, but other than astetics it is of no use.

garbagefanuk: it doesn't matter if Kain has the shift ablility or not here because time would have frozen when Raziel slipped back to spectral and therefore Kain cannot do anything untill he emerges again.

Anubis_Orr
6th Sep 2002, 10:28
If time is moving much much faster in spectral realm than that of the material realm it would seem from a being's perspective in spectral that nothing is moving in the material realm, the reverse is NOT true.

You're assuming that the humans constructed the time-streaming chambers and the Sarafan stronghold (IMHO the Ancients were responsible for the time-streaming chambers and perhaps the Stronghold)

And Kain's having Vorador's ring as an earring has already been CONFIRMED to hold a deeper meaning than just an asethetic item

TempySmurf
6th Sep 2002, 11:49
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I remember Kain could shift into the spectral realm when I was fighting him at the pillars. It's been so long that I don't remember for sure and I don't have the game to test it.

Anubis_Orr
6th Sep 2002, 15:09
It seems for a moment he can..... Someone (I forgot who, sry) posted pics of Kain in the spectral realm during the first fight with Kain... you had to shift really quick just as he was teleporting and he would appear for a moment in spectral

garbagefanuk
6th Sep 2002, 17:27
Lozza mate. I thought about that crystal thing too and ur right its just a game play element. But ur Kain theory is wrong becos if time does freeze in the material and it would have frozen kain too. thats true but if he was a spectral creature (like the demons) then he would have been able to follow like they do to u when ur kicked in to it or leave the spectral realm. they can follow u, the same would have been if kain was demon'ish

garbagefanuk
6th Sep 2002, 17:31
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
It seems for a moment he can..... Someone (I forgot who, sry) posted pics of Kain in the spectral realm during the first fight with Kain... you had to shift really quick just as he was teleporting and he would appear for a moment in spectral

I never noticed him in the spectral realm. The only people i saw that could shift were melchiah and zephon (zephon for like 1 second then he disapeared again)

Anubis_Orr
6th Sep 2002, 20:48
"Kain can goto spectral" thread

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1222&highlight=kain+can+go+spectral

Just because we haven't seen Kain go to spectral doesn't mean he can't (the above excepted for now as it used a cheat). As Raziel says in the beginning monologue of SR Kain would enter the state of change first and then the lieutenants would follow years later, as many people have noticed Kain doesn't seem to be any different or have any special abilities and so far it is undisclosed what he is capable of.

As for the demons.... these creatures were sent after Raziel SPECIFICALLY what good would it be if they were confined to the material plane? Raziel could just shift and reappear whenever he wanted or wherever they demons weren't.

Frankmaster
6th Sep 2002, 23:01
for example the crystals mounted about the time-streaming chamber and main gates to the saraphan strong hold; why on earth would humans make their doors openable to only a person who had the light reaver (ie: only Raziel, and no humans at all) ?


I think those crystals are there so Raziel had to get the Light Reaver before using the time streaming device. The Light Reaver enabled him to get the air reaver, which allowed him to get the fire reaver, which allowed him to enter the stronghold in the past and kill his sarafan brothers and himself.

TG_Syd
8th Sep 2002, 01:54
I think that Mobius built the crystals for Raziel(A manipulative bastard is he...)

Rook
8th Sep 2002, 03:10
Originally posted by TG_Syd
I think that Mobius built the crystals for Raziel(A manipulative bastard is he...)

I agree! In fact, I had always had it in mind that the crystals might have been put there either by Moebius (which seems most likely to me), or by whomever might have inhabited the Stronghold before even the Sarafan were there. Considering the number of visual references to winged beings in the Stronghold, I had always thought that it was either inhabited by the first vamps (highly unlikely, since it lacks that lofty architecture:D), or by humans that may have worshipped the vampires, and were driven out by the Sarafan. I mean, if you're on the Sarafan side, what better victory than to take over the Stronghold of people who worship the vampires you hunt and make it your own?

Yes, those are only theories. But they seem a bit more substantial than simply referring to something that obvious as a gameplay issue. Knowing my luck, though, it very likely is just that... :rolleyes: :D

Lozza Mate
8th Sep 2002, 06:07
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr

And Kain's having Vorador's ring as an earring has already been CONFIRMED to hold a deeper meaning than just an asethetic item
when was that confirmed
link?

anothe possible reason as to why demons could shift during time freeze is perhaps the Elder God makes them immune

Anubis_Orr
8th Sep 2002, 08:54
Originally posted by Rook


Considering the number of visual references to winged beings in the Stronghold, I had always thought that it was either inhabited by the first vamps (highly unlikely, since it lacks that lofty architecture:D)

[COLOR=blue]Yes, those are only theories. But they seem a bit more substantial than simply referring to something that obvious as a gameplay issue. Knowing my luck, though, it very likely is just that... :rolleyes: :D

The Ancients were also the protectors of mankind so it is possible that they built it for them, also perhaps much like Raziel the Ancients did not always have wings and the structure was built then, plus the balcony where Raziel exited could only be reached by a creature with flight, much easier than going in that Crystal-locked front door :)

Lozza... unfortunately I've haven't been able to locate the topic, somebody noticed the earring Kain was wearing on the front package of SR1 and inquired about it.... however I do have this


Hey KainPainter was it your idea to have Kain wearing Vorador's ring as an earring or were you told to add it?

Anubis,

yeah, that was my idea. I wanted to tie Kain back into BO1 somehow and I drew his model sheet with Vorador's ring. Amy liked the idea and we moved forward with it.

If Amy takes notice of something it has a good potential of becoming part of the story.

Personally my theory on the Crystals, time-streaming chambers, etc is that they are the creation of the Ancients.
Think about it...... the Ancients were the builders of the Pillars and they were the original Guardians (Dimensions, Death, Energy, Time). These Guardians would have had all the abilities that the current Guardians have because the Pillars choose their own Guardians and gift them with their properties and a substantially longer life, so what good would a time guardian have been without the ability to influence time?? Plus I don't think Moebius has the capability or knowledge to build a time-streaming chamber, and why would he create a chamber that he himself would never be able to enter? And it seems to me that there are more time-streaming chambers in Nosgoth, because whenever you streamed to another era the controls for the chamber were gone and you couldn't use the same one to get back..... the Chronoplast seems to be the ultimate time-streaming chamber with the capability to send a person anywhere in time (Perhaps even back to the time of the Ancients)

Lozza Mate
8th Sep 2002, 09:54
that doesn't make vorador's ring a key item other than in BO1, it was just a nice way to link BO1 in a little more. what use could it have anyway? vorador is dead and all it did was call him.

Anubis_Orr
8th Sep 2002, 10:58
No that quotes doesn't, but I THINK that other topic did have a confirmation, someone asked Amy about it.... but can't find it so oh well.

What use could it have?

Yes Vorador died.... however SR2 takes place before he dies (with the exception of the future era) so the ring could still be used. So Kain or Raziel (if Kain gives him ring) could potentially call Vorador if they need help with something.

Lozza Mate
9th Sep 2002, 07:10
possibly, but I doubt it, chances are Kain and Raz will go back in time to just before the pillars were created. (it's my theory that it is Raziel who ordered the creation of the pillars and also the reaver and fonts)

Adrian Tepes
9th Sep 2002, 07:28
In my opinion, I don't think that time actually freezes when Raziel switches between the two planes. I think that time elapses differently on the two planes. For example, let's say that for every day spent in the spectral realm, a billionth of a second elapses in the material realm. There are some instances in the games to back up this theory.

Example 1. When raziel is fighting a creature and the beast is in mid attack, Raziel can shift into the spectral plane. When Raziel shifts back into physical form, he appears behind the beast who is just at that moment finishing his attack. It only appers as if the beast were frozen regardless of how long Raziel was in spectral form. He would essentially have to stay in the spectral plane for months for the beast to complete his attack.

Example 2. the dropping of weapons and their apparent suspension in spectral.

Example 3. the Sarafan Lord from BO2 said something about his existence in the demon realm allowed him to have immortality ,aka: longevity, as compared to the material plane. Also, the demons in SR2 can shift to spectral at will thus possibly showing a similarity betwwen the spectral and demon realms.

The only thing I can find to contradict this theory, is the fact that when Raziel was thrown into the abyss, he went through an agonizing demise only to wake up at the bottom of the abyss in spectral form. Subsequently, he returned to the material plane after his discussion with the elder only to realize that many centuries had passed.. To him, this seemed almost instantaneous. However, we do not know fully what happened to Raziel after he was tossed into the abyss. He could have been in the spectral plane for several hundred millennia or so (spectral time). We as the players, have no idea what transpired before Raziel awoke at the bottom of the abyss. Also, Keep in mind that none of us knows fully the physical or spiritual properties of the world of Nosgoth, this is determined by the writers and after all, they are only human and prone to mistakes.

Anubis_Orr
9th Sep 2002, 11:08
I totally agree Adrian, as I said above it's a matter of perspective.

IMO Raziel can't go that far back in time, I believe that the time-streaming chambers were built AFTER the Pillars in order to serve the Guardian of Time, and since before the Pillars there was no Guardian there would not be a reason for a time-streaming chamber. He could still go back very far in time to a time when many of the Ancients were alived and perhaps help them rid themselves of the Blood Thirst and perhaps that would give them the ability to procreate again.

You should watch the monologue again Adrian :)

Raziel's fate was to "burn forever in the bowels of the lake of dead... an eternity passed and my torment receded bringing me back from the precipice of madness and yet... I live"

He only goes to spectral when he reaches the bottom of the abyss and not instantly his body lays there for a while (who wants a real-time game of centuries? lol)

You can download it from Eidos if you don't feel like starting the game for it

Lozza Mate
10th Sep 2002, 07:26
Raziel entered the spectral realm shortly after he was thrown in and then lay at the bottom of the abyss in spectral for the rest of that time.

Anubis_Orr
10th Sep 2002, 10:33
Wrong.... he hits bottom and stays there, still in the material realm and he says "an eternity passed and my torment receded" then he shifts to spectral

keepittrue
10th Sep 2002, 19:59
I have to agree with Lozza only because of simple physics and reality. The thing is, Raziels body is STILL at the bottom of the Lake. We saw Raziels spiritual self rise in the opening, Raziel was totally unconcious for centuries laying at the bottom of the abyss. His physical body still lies at the bottom of the lake while his soul walks Nosgoth. During those centuries that passes he was in the ether realm.

Anubis_Orr
10th Sep 2002, 20:32
"Physics and reality" yeah both of those go together in a video game that has a being shifting from a material realm to a spectral realm :rolleyes:

He wasn't unconscious, his monologue at the beginning tells us what he's going through.... and his physical body isn't lying on the bottom of the lake, it was destroyed. You should watch the opening video again and listen to what Raziel's saying as his body is sinking to the bottom.

Lozza Mate
11th Sep 2002, 09:13
Raziel did not lie at the bottom of the abyss for god knows how long, his soul escaped his body as it fell and this is proven by the fact of his currant spiritual form:

Raziel looks the way he does because his soul escaped his body when it was at this state of destruction and therefore this is the form his soul 'thinks' it should look like. after escaping his body it was totaly dissolved in the water. (his body must be destroyed otherwise his soul would still be 'tied' to it in the spectral realm, just like other vampire wraiths)

Anubis_Orr
11th Sep 2002, 10:12
If his soul left his body before his body reached the bottom of the abyss it would have just disintegrated leaving nothing behind, the video CLEARLY shows his body hitting the ground, lying there, and then switching to spectral (am watching it right now)

Lozza Mate
11th Sep 2002, 10:51
of course you see his body hit the ground but that doesn't mean it's his physical body in the material realm. as Raziel hits the ground we watch him shift to spectral (note the colour change)

also note that suddenly his body stops dissolving at the point his soul escapes and therefore retains it's currant form.

also: when did I ever say that the chronoplast was created by human circle members?

Anubis_Orr
11th Sep 2002, 11:56
You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence......

Is there a third realm? His body is in the material realm hits the bottom and shifts to spectral after a "few moments."

A vampire's body doesn't completely dissolve, as seen by the vampires that Raziel throws into water, but you also have to remember the time factor...... Raziel's body hits the ground stops dissolving and then lies there for centuries before he shifts to spectral.

chronoplast, huh?

Umah Bloodomen
11th Sep 2002, 16:27
I thought the Chronoplast was Moebius' doing - both his design and creation.

keepittrue
11th Sep 2002, 17:30
First off, you have to remember Raziel is talking in 3rd person, he knows whats going to happen. In the Spirit realm, 1 sec could be a thousand years, In Raz's view Raziel was thrown in the Lake and burning for a while, he landed and shifted in to spirit realm and woke up. He talked to the Elder, came out the abyss and found the land like he did, to him it was only an instant change. Now in every elses eyes, Raziel was thrown into the abyss, his body landed shortly after, the land decayed they did whatever they did for a thousand years and then Raziel pops up. Raziels body is still at the bottom of the Lake, just like the Vamps during the game before you fight Dumah, you drain the water and they come back to life, theyre bodies did not disenergrate just dissolved but not all the way. I do understand your point of Lozza that Raziel should be tied to his body if it is still there, but you have to realize that Raziel forces his self into the physical realm with shift glyph.

warpsavant
11th Sep 2002, 18:03
I do not believe Raziel's body is still at the bottom of the lake. In the intro he gets up, and that's his body. There was no body left behind. What was left of his body obviously adapted to the spectral plane and now he is a spectral being. The manuals say Clan Leaders can shift and that time freezes in spectral. It doesnt always seem this way, but its easier than explaining how time passes differently on each plane. Everyone in the spectral realm is dead anyway, so it makes no difference, eh?

Anubis_Orr
11th Sep 2002, 19:33
I don't think Moebius is capable of designing something like that Umah, let alone building it.

Everyone except Raziel :)

Personally I don't know where his body is..... up in the air in my mind.... might still be there or might have dissolved, that actually brings to mind an interesting concept.... instead of being forced into the Reaver he's forced into his old body where he's no longer incapable of being killed, lol ya never know :)

It seems to me that he's talking in the 1st person.... he describes events as they're happening..... not events that will happen, it wouldn't have been as informative to hear "oh god it burns it burns!!" all the way down :)

necropotence
11th Sep 2002, 20:44
Warp's right Raz's Body is'nt at the bottom of the abyss. But about time stopping water still moves in spectral realm. Shift in front of a waterfall it still fall's.

N0V4
11th Sep 2002, 21:17
*sigh* OK Ok,listen up.

Kain does NOT have the abillity to shift to the spectrel realm.
As he teleports he DOESNT go to the spectrel realm.
And he might as well as NEVER HAVE SEEN the damn spectrel realm.





If he DOES go to the spectrel realm as he teleports,than he does it for 3 sec or something.
Teleport is NOT stoping time and walking to teh other side.
Its dematirializing(UUUH w00tz¿¿) and materializing back in another place.

Much like Gokus instant transmition technique.
*sigh*Now was that hard?


-Case Closed-

Anubis_Orr
11th Sep 2002, 21:28
Nov4, you got your topics mixed up :) Nobody's been talking about Kain in here

keepittrue
11th Sep 2002, 22:14
Originally posted by warpsavant
I do not believe Raziel's body is still at the bottom of the lake. In the intro he gets up, and that's his body. There was no body left behind.

What do you mean Warp please clarify?
Whenever you throw a Vamp into some water they're body stays there but in a dissolved form. We saw Raziel rise in the spectral realm in the intro, I have to watch it again but I am pretty sure it shows Raziels body hit the ground in the physical realm and then you see it change to the spirit realm and then Raziel raises up and starts talking to the Elder. I think his soul just took the shape of his body of what he looked like when landed, Warp didnt you or someone else post some time back a interwiew with Amy stating how Raz took his form or something rather. To be real honost, his body being at the bottom of the Lake has no relavance anyway but makes for good discussion nonetheless.

Lozza Mate
12th Sep 2002, 07:12
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
A vampire's body doesn't completely dissolve, as seen by the vampires that Raziel throws into water,

that's a gameplay/combat element

Lozza Mate
12th Sep 2002, 07:16
Originally posted by necropotence
Warp's right Raz's Body is'nt at the bottom of the abyss. But about time stopping water still moves in spectral realm. Shift in front of a waterfall it still fall's.

that's a graphical element, it's just the way the game engine works

Anubis_Orr
12th Sep 2002, 11:47
In YOUR opinion

Umah Bloodomen
12th Sep 2002, 15:20
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
I don't think Moebius is capable of designing something like that Umah, let alone building it.

And why wouldn't Moebius be capable of designing such a device? We cannot forget that this is the Time Streamer we are talking about. It is very possible for Moebius to have traveled through time to find the means to create such a device as The Chronoplast.

We also can't forget that Moebius was also apart of the cult devoted to Hash'ak'gik. There is no inclination as to how many members that group had. The Egyptians commissioned (and enslaved) workers to build the ancient pyramids and other Egyptian monuments for the benefit of their Pharoh's and Queen's (for the sole purpose of ensuring their gods were pleased to allow them into their Heavens).

The architecht, Imhotep designed the step pyramid of Djoser. I highly doubt he actually built it all by his lonesome. ;)
Imhotep was sometimes revered as a prophet, and is considered the "father of modern medicine".

I find a few striking similarities between Imhotep and the fictional Moebius. (Especially seeing Moebius served as The Oracle of Nosgoth).

Keep in mind, that this theory of mine does not necessarily back up the fact Moebius did or did not design/build The Chronoplast, but it doesn't rule the possibilty of him doing it, out. :)

Anubis_Orr
12th Sep 2002, 15:38
Yeah, he's the time-streamer, but he wasn't the FIRST time-streamer... the Pillars have been around for untold millenia and their Guardianship switches from person to person as one dies naturally or unnaturally, so the first Guardian (an Ancient Vampire) couldn't be a time-streamer unless he had a device to aid in this....

Personally I think the Chronoplast, Time-streaming chambers, "Sarafan" stronghold, Reaver forges, Pillars, were all created by the Ancient Vampires..... think about it, they build the Pillars, then build the Time-streaming chambers, their Guardian uses the chambers and sees the dismal sterile future of their race and Raziel's role to come, so then they build the Chronoplast and Reaver forges to aid him in his destiny..... all was seen and planned for, except Moebius' treachery and his interference in the time-stream, cruely twisting the Ancients plans.

But..... we'll have to wait and see :)

Umah Bloodomen
12th Sep 2002, 15:52
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
Yeah, he's the time-streamer, but he wasn't the FIRST time-streamer... the Pillars have been around for untold millenia and their Guardianship switches from person to person as one dies naturally or unnaturally, so the first Guardian (an Ancient Vampire) couldn't be a time-streamer unless he had a device to aid in this....

Personally I think the Chronoplast, Time-streaming chambers, "Sarafan" stronghold, Reaver forges, Pillars, were all created by the Ancient Vampires..... think about it, they build the Pillars, then build the Time-streaming chambers, their Guardian uses the chambers and sees the dismal sterile future of their race and Raziel's role to come, so then they build the Chronoplast and Reaver forges to aid him in his destiny..... all was seen and planned for, except Moebius' treachery and his interference in the time-stream, cruely twisting the Ancients plans.

But..... we'll have to wait and see :)

The abilities of the Ancients are still unclear at this point. We keep going back to the unknown factors that may have a direct affect on a lot of issues within the series. We don't know what abilities they possessed prior to their curse, what technologies they knew prior to the genesis of the Pillars, what magic they believed in and implemented into their everyday lives (if any at all). There is cause for a lot of speculation with this issue, it doesn't disprove your theory either.

A question that is now raised in my mind is that if the Ancients were responsible for the creation of these other Non-Pillar devices (i.e. The Chronoplast and Time Streaming Chambers more specificially) then why would they not use them to their own advantage? Why did they just lose most of their race in the war? Why put Kain through hell and back (with his assasination and his little BO quest). Why subject Raziel to such a monumential destiny?

What I am trying to get at, is if the Ancients had the ability to time stream, they could've very well prevented the future events from occuring. They would've known about Hash possessing Morty, they would've forseen Ariel being murdered and Kain refusing the sacrifice to further corrupt what they initially built and implemented as the life force of Nosgoth. They could've seen Moebius (in the future) for the dog he is and put a stop to his treachery (by killing him and ensuring a new guardian was selected).

Say the Ancients were responsible for the creation of such devices, Perhaps, Anubis, this leads us down a darkened path that we aren't ready to go down. This could be the flaw with the prestiegous Ancients and their beliefs. Did the Ancients know what was to happen and do nothing to stop it? Is this the "ice breaking" evidence that suggests that the Ancients are the puppetmasters afterall?

As you said though, I suppose we will have to wait and see... :D

keepittrue
12th Sep 2002, 16:22
Originally posted by Lozza Mate


that's a gameplay/combat element


You might wanna clarify more, because any time you throw a Vamp in the water or impale them, they can can still come back to life and thats not just gameplay elements, its the way Vamps work in Nosgoth, because if you suck theryre souls they're body totally goes away.

Anubis_Orr
12th Sep 2002, 17:33
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


The abilities of the Ancients are still unclear at this point. We keep going back to the unknown factors that may have a direct affect on a lot of issues within the series. We don't know what abilities they possessed prior to their curse, what technologies they knew prior to the genesis of the Pillars, what magic they believed in and implemented into their everyday lives (if any at all). There is cause for a lot of speculation with this issue, it doesn't disprove your theory either.

A question that is now raised in my mind is that if the Ancients were responsible for the creation of these other Non-Pillar devices (i.e. The Chronoplast and Time Streaming Chambers more specificially) then why would they not use them to their own advantage? Why did they just lose most of their race in the war? Why put Kain through hell and back (with his assasination and his little BO quest). Why subject Raziel to such a monumential destiny?

What I am trying to get at, is if the Ancients had the ability to time stream, they could've very well prevented the future events from occuring. They would've known about Hash possessing Morty, they would've forseen Ariel being murdered and Kain refusing the sacrifice to further corrupt what they initially built and implemented as the life force of Nosgoth. They could've seen Moebius (in the future) for the dog he is and put a stop to his treachery (by killing him and ensuring a new guardian was selected).

Say the Ancients were responsible for the creation of such devices, Perhaps, Anubis, this leads us down a darkened path that we aren't ready to go down. This could be the flaw with the prestiegous Ancients and their beliefs. Did the Ancients know what was to happen and do nothing to stop it? Is this the "ice breaking" evidence that suggests that the Ancients are the puppetmasters afterall?

As you said though, I suppose we will have to wait and see... :D

I agree completely with your first paragraph, too many unknown factors.... nothing so far can be proven or disproven

To respond to your second/third paragraph; As we've all seen through Moebius although he can time-stream and affect minor changes to events he is not omnipotent, he has seen much in his Guardianship but he doesn't know all so I think it would be in error to assume that the Ancients could foresee every complication that Kain/Raziel would come upon. Also paradoxes are not foreseeable and radically change the direction(s) of the streams of history... I'm just thinking of this now so disagree or add anything you want..... but it seems that history was on track until the moment when Kain killed the Nemesis, because the Reaver is need to create a paradox and after that crucial moment all was changed, for the worse it seems.

As for the Ancients.... for the moment I do believe that they are the benevolent beings they are depicted to be (BO2 cleared up the fact that the Hylden don't exactly have Nosgoth's races close to their hearts [were going to wipe them all out]). Of course no race lacks it's "bad apples" we may find Janos survived so long because he made a deal with someone, but again we'll have to wait and see.

Lozza Mate
13th Sep 2002, 09:12
Originally posted by keepittrue



You might wanna clarify more, because any time you throw a Vamp in the water or impale them, they can can still come back to life and thats not just gameplay elements, its the way Vamps work in Nosgoth, because if you suck theryre souls they're body totally goes away.

The vampire body completely dissolves away in water (just as Raz's did). the bodies in-game do not completely dissolve becasue otherwise it would cause some problems in game-play (ie: make it too easy, or make it near impossible to devour their soul)

the bodies you find that are waiting to be brought back to life are a non-issue becuase they were made that way for gameplay reasons.

Anubis_Orr
13th Sep 2002, 12:49
How would it make it too easy, or make it impossible to devour their soul? If you throw a vamp in water it's dead, and you have that limited time to devour it's soul, you can't drain the water away to try again...... so it's gonna stay dead no matter what. And the body dissolving away has no impact on Raziel's ability to devour a soul.

You assume too much, we never see Raziel's body dissolve away, it lies on the bottom intact for centuries and then he shifts to spectral

Lozza Mate
15th Sep 2002, 09:17
it would make it too easy because part of fighting a vampire is teh threat that they will return to the material realm and attack you. also if those bodies you found had of dissolved you wouldn't have had nay souls to devour and replenish your life (something needed in the dumahnim city).

I never said that Raziel's body dissolving away had anything to do with his soul devouring ability.

Raziel's body must have dissolved away because a Vampire wraith's body is 'tied' to it's body in the material realm (like a leash: they can't move very far away from their body). and Raziel can move in the world without such problems. (these vampire wraith facts are stated in the manual, I'm not making it up or assuming anything)

Anubis_Orr
15th Sep 2002, 10:02
Any vampire you throw in the water is dead, plain and simple it will never come back to the material realm (with the exception of the Rehabim of course), and I don't think a vampire that you throw on one of those spikes on the walls is gonna be a threat anymore either. As soon as you kill a vampire in either way I just mentioned you can't affect their body so there is no chance they'll return to the material realm. There are only TWO small areas where you can drain the water and have vampires that were in it come back to life, no where else would they return to the material realm to reclaim their bodies.

Raziel is NOT a vampire wraith or akin to one, he is a unique being that the likes of Nosgoth has never seen before (yes except when he travels in time, but that's still him)


or make it near impossible to devour their soul

Nor did I, but the vampires bodies have no effect on Raziel's ability to devour souls either, there is a limited time until a soul moves to spectral after it has been "freed" from it's material casing, water has no effect on this or the state of the body.

So how come you're using a "non-issue" to try to prove your point? And maybe they aren't dissolved because vampires do not dissolve completely in water!

Lozza Mate
15th Sep 2002, 11:11
Raziel is a vampire wraith, his only distinction is his ability to create his own body in the material realm (shift glyph) and is not tied to a physical body.

those vampires you find dead are put there for a reason; game-play; they're just another puzzle/obstical

Power reaver
16th Sep 2002, 13:08
First I ll clear up something I read on the 1stpg on this thread .

Someone stated that Kain/Demons were able to leave their body and goto Spectral .

This is WRONG ! In SR2 when you kill a demon you can clearly see his soul blasting out if his body in the spectral Realm similair to the way it does in Material . Thus the material body can Shift to Spectral and Kain may be using this ability . Although it may be cooller if he dematerialised , I think the Spectral Realm is what CD will go with .

Now on to the currunt discussion .

Raz was the strongest Vampire except for Kain , and Iam quite sure his soul is bound with his body tightly either that or he is very strong and was able to survive the abyss till the bottom . Well the video clearly shows everything . And before Raz goes
Spectral he cleary states

An eternity passed and my torment receded .

This line states that after an eternity of pain and burning and his body became incapable of holding his soul and he Shifted , thus his pain stopped .

The next line

You did not survive the abyss Raziel , I have only spared you from Total Disolution .

This clearly states that Razes connection to Material with his body has broken as it is no more .
But I dont get the Total Disolution part .

Heres another theory : In correspondance to what I said at the beginning of the post , it is possible that the Elder swipt Raziel soul + body from the
Material Realm itself , thus giving him his form at the beginning instead of becoming a green cloud and cutting his connection to the material through his body , but since Raz still has to go to Material , the Elder gives him the Shift Glyph .

I strongly believe that Razes body is no longer present .

Although my above theory goes against the other theories I believe in ("Elder did not create SR Raz" Theory) but its a theory , and it explains a lot .

A side note : Raz was in the abyss for a max of 1000 yrs (assumed) while the ones we throw in are there for about 1000 secs , so you d probably think that a long term effect of water would totally dissolve Raz and a short term (hardly any time) would scorch the other Vampires without dissolving them completely .

Anubis_Orr
16th Sep 2002, 23:06
An eternity passed and my torment receded.
This line states that after an eternity of pain and burning and his body became incapable of holding his soul and he Shifted , thus his pain stopped.

That line doesn't state that..... it's your interpretation :p
I would say that during his fall into the abyss parts of Raziel's body dissolved until he was left with his "core image" these parts couldn't dissolve, as seen by the fact that his body lies like that for an eternity. I don't think that he shifted to spectral instantly, it slowly happened over time and that's why his pain receded. But who wants to see a real-time passing of centuries? :D

As for anything the Elder says...... take it with a grain of salt, he's a character and although he claims to be omnipotent/omniescient he is not.

keepittrue
17th Sep 2002, 00:55
Originally posted by Lozza Mate
it would make it too easy because part of fighting a vampire is teh threat that they will return to the material realm and attack you. also if those bodies you found had of dissolved you wouldn't have had nay souls to devour and replenish your life (something needed in the dumahnim city).



Lozza Mate you are not making much since, if that was the case just for gameplay reason, the water would not have been there and they would have just had the Vamps waiting there. Theyre bodies do not comepletely dissolve in water.

Lozza Mate
17th Sep 2002, 08:53
those dumahnim you find in the water in dumah's city are near the end of the game and therefore must be harder to fight. a vampire wraith is stronger, harder to fight and inflicts more damage. it makes perfect sense for them to be there.

necropotence
17th Sep 2002, 12:21
A vampire fall's or is tossed into water the water does not kill the vampire nor does the soul leave at least not very far. The water slowly dissolves it's body it's soul hang's around and slowly adapts to spectral realm as a wraith. Water is removed and the soul reanimates the corpse giving the vampire a thirst for souls instead of blood. The only difference about what happened to Raziel is that his body as well as his sole addapted (or was helped by the elder god) to the spectral realm. This was his "unique reserection". Kain said he counted on it.

Lozza Mate
18th Sep 2002, 11:00
"kain said he counted on it"
he's refering to the fact that Kain pissed raziel off intentionaly so that he would follow him into the past.

Raziel's material body did not enter the spectral realm, Raziel's soul 'thinks' it looks the way it does because that was the state it was in when his soul escaped his body therefore he looks the way his soul 'thinks' he should look like. after this his body continued to dissolve

Anubis_Orr
18th Sep 2002, 11:44
I'd agree with the first part about Raziel it's supposition and personally my opinion as well, but you're assuming without any proof that Raziel's body continued to dissolve.

Lozza Mate
19th Sep 2002, 07:07
if he has remained true to the vampire wraith facts (which he should have) then deduction would lead you to see that it did dissolve away.


one possibility is this:
it has always been my opinion that it is the soul which is vampiric, not the body.and therefore when the soul inhabits it's body it influences it to evolve it's vampiric abilities. and this is why when a vampire is 'killed' and it's soul is pulled into the spectral realm that their body is no longer vampiric and can therefore rott away (early nosgoth's only way to 'kill' a vampire for good).

so perhaps once Raziel's soul left his body, it stopped dissolving because it was no longer vampiric and therefore was not vulnrable to water's touch.

however this is not very plausable for the reasons I have stated earlier; Raziel is not tethered to his material body because he doesn't have one. although there is a chance that while he was unconcience his body rotted away in the water.

either way I firmly believe that he does not have a material body (short of those he creates via shift glyph)