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Lady Kreliana
27th Aug 2002, 15:02
A lot of people have questioned whether or not the Razielim are truly dead. Since I haven't seen a poll on this subject, I thought I'd post one. :) (Note: If someone has already posted this, sorry! We'll just go through it again. :))

I'm undecided. There's so much evidence to support both theories! On one hand, Kain did imply that they had been exterminated, but on the other hand....it was only an implication. Kain may have simply been trying to fuel Raziel's rage.

Anyway, lets share some opinions. :)

Strega
27th Aug 2002, 17:27
I would think that they took off to hide somewhere far far away. I know I would want to do that with Kain coming after me to kill me.

It would be so cool to see in SR3 that there are only a few surviving Razielim left and Raziel will have to find them to solve this or that puzzle, also to gain more insight into the real truth behind what was done to him. Perhaps they have evolved into a society of stealthy nomads that constantly monitors Kain's doings and wait for the day when their Sire will return (part of the prophesy that Raz is the savior of Nosgoth?). I hope that they at least include some kind of closure on the subject of what specifically happened to them even though it may not be critical to the story line, I can hardly wait till SR3 comes out!

keepittrue
27th Aug 2002, 18:07
Thats the thing, we know now Kain did not want Raziel dead, remember this prase:

Kain:

Let's drop the moral posturing, shall we? We both know there's no altruism in this pursuit.
Your reckless indignation led you here - I counted on it.
Kain sees that Raziel is bristling at this insult.

Kain:

There's no shame in it, Raziel - revenge is motivation enough.
At least it's honest. Hate me, but do it honestly.


At this point in the game, we were believing Kain was a big bad guy. He on purposely made Raziel mad to lead him where he wanted to, and for other purposes. I doubt that his plans would include the annihalation of the Razielim. We all know now that Kains intent was not to kill Raziel but to restore balance.

Kain:
The abyss has been unkind.

Kain rises and begins to approach Raziel, casually but menacingly.

Raziel:
I am your creation, Kain - now, as before. You criticize your own work.
What have you done with my clan, degenerate? You have no right--

Kain:
What I have made, I can also destroy, child.


We all know that Kain wanted Raziel to revive from the Abyss but Kain implies that he didnt want him to. Kain also implies that Raziels clan is destroyed by him which I think was used to fuel his anger towards Kain. Look how angry Raziel became after Kain implied that his clan is dead by his hands.

Raziel:
Damn you, Kain! You are not God! This act of genocide is unconscionable!

Raziel was furious, but this all was going by planed to lead Raziel. I definitely think his clan is still alive and possibly the being Hylden.

Serul
27th Aug 2002, 18:08
Both possebilities (sp?) are possible, I guess.

Even if they have all been killed, you would at least see some remnents of bodies. Think about the Dumahim, impaled butthere were still some remnents left of their bodies.

Azrael
27th Aug 2002, 23:36
Maybe the Melchiahim used their remains as a replacement for their rotting flesh... or they bodies got thrown to the Lake of the Dead. :)

Azuriel
28th Aug 2002, 13:10
if those corpses were thrown in the lake of the dead:


<corpses.. or pieces of em, fall down to the bottom of the Abyss>


Raziel: "what the f... it`s RAINING MEN!!"

Apocrypha Roxy
29th Aug 2002, 02:11
Either way is possible, really.

But just consider the idea that they still live, or were relocated:

When Raziel returns and confronts Kain, and as it is apparent between the two in dialogue throughout the series, Kain spurs him on tirelessly. It seems to me he loves to bust Raziel's proverbial 'chops' - most likely to tick him off enough to continue persuing him to reshape their Destinies to their original course.

In essence, Kain knows exactly what he was doing when he presumably 'exterminated' the Razielim - and still does: all for the purpose of igniting Raz's fiery temper and self-rightious crusade for vengance so that he would -unwillingly yet unconsiously- help Kain in his mission to restore Nosgoth, subtle though it may be.

So, nah, I don't think the Razielim were killed by Kain. More likely they died off slowly by being shunted from the empire and having no leadership to guide them.

Unless Kain was feeling bloodthirsty that day... you never know... ;)

BTW Azrael - adorable sig! Plushie Raz for everyone! :D

Lady Kreliana
29th Aug 2002, 02:55
I also think it'd be neat to see some Razielim in SR3. They don't have to have been alive the whole time, I mean we could see them being exterminated (if they were exterminated), or we could see some while they were alive in Kain's empire. Raziel could even have a flashback thinking about them, and the flashback could be visualized.

Darakari
1st Sep 2002, 22:57
Being the only clan with the ability to fly, it seems possible that some Razelim could have escaped to a different part of Nosgoth that is not accessible to the other vampires.

It seems that the inhabitants of Nosgoth are limited by the mountains on the North, East, and West; and limited by the Ocean to the South.

It may be possible that some Razelim flew to a different area beyond the mountains, or that some of them flew to a different island or continent beyond the sea.

Anything is possible on a make-believe planet.

Anubis_Orr
2nd Sep 2002, 01:05
The Razelim wouldn't have had the ability to fly, Raziel would have been the first to experience the change and as we saw with the other clans it took centuries for the vampires other than the lieutenants to change. If Kain was going to destroy them I don't believe that he would put it off and give them the chance to grow wings that would enable them to escape him. However we'll have to see in SR3 if they were destroyed at all, whatever the means.

Darakari
2nd Sep 2002, 21:47
Also notice the fact that Raziel gained his wings a long time before any of the clans began to "de-evolve" or mutate. When Raziel enters Kain's throne room, all of the clan leaders are there, AND NONE OF THEM HAVE STARTED TO CHANGE YET. Raziel already has his wings, at the same time that Raziel and all his brothers are still, all of them, human-looking vampires.

It is very likely that the Razelim clan all began to grow wings a LONG TIME BEFORE any other clan started to change. Raziel was definitely the first to grow wings, but the fact probably caught Kain's attention when a vast majority of the Razelim had already developed wings. Such a major change in a vampire clan would definitely catch his attention, and Raziel was probably summoned to Kain's throne room as the leader of his clan. Kain would not summon the entire clan to his throne in order to view their new "gift". Instead, he would only summon the clan leader, and have the leader demonstrate the new "gift" of his clan.

Since the designers of the LOK games have never once shown any of Raziel's clan, they really can do anything that they choose with the clan. They can very easily choose to give the Razelim wings at the time that Raziel is summoned to the throne room.

They can also very easily allow some of the Razelim to use their wings to escape to different parts of Nosgoth. The entire area of Meridian and all the other areas within BO2 are all new areas created within BO2 alone. None of these areas exist in any of the other games. If they really want to, they can create new areas within Nosgoth where the Razelim have escaped to.

They can even choose to send the Razelim back in time thru the chronoplast in order to create the Ancient race.

Because of so much ambiguity, the Razelim and Turel are both big wild cards that the game designers can play as they see fit. That's part of the beauty of this series, for every question that the newest game answers, the same game creates ten more new questions. Because we are always seeing vaque glimpses of events, and because we are often viewing events from a particular character's point of view, hundreds of events are open to interpretation. That's why I keep playing this series, because they always leave us guessing and wondering what will happen next.

Just because the movie is over, doesn't mean the story has to end. Just like the movie "Fellowship of the Ring". Many people in the audience, who had no previous knowledge of Tolkein, were shocked when the movie ended at a cliff-hanger. I even heard one lady say, "All that time I've been sitting here, and he still hasn't thrown that ring in that damn mountain."

Anubis_Orr
3rd Sep 2002, 04:27
As Raziel says in the opening of SR Kain would first enter the state of change and then years later the lieutenants would follow, now he being the one who was given the most of Kain's "gift" he would of course be the next one to change.

I'd have to disagree that Raziel's clan started to change before anybody else. If you look at the other clans you can see that the Lieutenant is the strongest and would be the first to change, and then his clan would follow MANY years later, think about it this way... Let's say Kain gives Raziel HALF of his soul thereby making him the strongest of the Lieutenants and it is this soul that anchors Raziel within his body whenever Raziel makes another vampire he is sharing PART of his soul AND part of the remnants of Kain's soul, thereby diluting it with every other vampire he makes and let's keep in mind that these would be fledgelings and not "Dark Gods" that have been around for millenia, there's no way they would develop before the other lieutenants.

It seems to me that Raziel came to see Kain immediately after he had changed, and if Kain had known that Raziel and his ENTIRE clan had wings I don't think he would be so surprised when he saw Raziel.

[Edit] Fixed fragment

Lady Kreliana
3rd Sep 2002, 16:11
I agree. I seriously doubt that the Razielim had wings at the same time Raziel did.

Time Streamer
3rd Sep 2002, 19:44
In some way/form or other, I believe we'll discover the ultimate fate of the Razielim in SR3.

warpsavant
3rd Sep 2002, 20:05
I think they are dead. There is some good proof in that other thread.

keepittrue
3rd Sep 2002, 23:41
What other thread, I wanna see.

Most of what Dark has said is true.

garbagefanuk
4th Sep 2002, 00:09
Oh there all dead.

Come on it's Kain. He doesn't leave anything half done does he? If he wants something dead then it dies (unless of course if ur talking about raziel in which case i'm assuming he always knew that raziel would be back :) )

keepittrue
4th Sep 2002, 02:04
Garbage, you hit the nail on the head on that last part, he didnt kill Raziel because of jelousy, remember Kain had a plan with Raziel, he only saw his wings as a sign which Amy already stated. It could be possible he killed Raziels clan but I find it hard to believe Kain just killing off all those Vampires just to get Raz mad.

Sade Lyrate
11th Sep 2002, 10:24
...where does it say that it would have been Kain that wiped out the Razielim?
Or that their alleged demise was ordained by him?

Raziel, far as I can recall, is the one who concludes that his clan is dead,
and slain by Kain; Kain simply 'plays along'. Notice that he never really
admits or denies the 'genocide'. And none of the brethren claim it was Kain
who ordered them into death; Melchiah is the only one to comment
about Razielim's current status at all.
...and he could have very well simply been taunting Raziel, fanning the
fury he thought necessary to get Raz to kill him, end his abysmal existence...;)

Lady Kreliana
11th Sep 2002, 16:02
For all we know the Razielim, out of grief for their master, might have killed themselves. Not likely, but a possibility. :D

Anyway, currently (IMHO) there's not enough strong evidence to support either theory, but all the theories presented here are really good. :)

garbagefanuk
11th Sep 2002, 18:37
Kain says to Raziel "What I created, i can also destroy child"

Enough evidence?

Sade Lyrate
11th Sep 2002, 19:08
Kain merely admits that he could have been the reason of Razielim's
demise. He admits with that phrase that his philosophy would forgive
him for ordering his 'grandchildren' to death, and that he more or less
has the power to do such a thing.
But...
that phrase does not admit committing murder of any kind.

Remember, at that moment, Kain's goal is (more or less) to get Raziel where
he wants the Reaver of Souls to be = the Chronoplast Chamber and tripping
through time. What better way to get Razzie there than to fuel his fury, lure
him to chase Kain, bait him through Nosgoth?

N0V4
11th Sep 2002, 21:05
Razielim MIGHT have perished,but maybe they are just hding somewhere.
Evolving,to take their revenge on the ones who killed their master.

Amen! :D

keepittrue
11th Sep 2002, 22:03
You tell em Sade.

garbagefanuk
12th Sep 2002, 01:36
Why exactly do u need to annoy raziel more for? U tossed him into hell for a few millenia, killed him, turned him into a ghoul and u think a few dead kids are gonna annoy him even more? Raziel would chase him to hell and back for his own reasons. He doesn't need any more reason to chase him. remember the intro. "...a deepened hatred of the hypocrisy that damned me to this hell" he's already annoyed at Kain. His dead clan only adds another reason to his large list.

(i remembered that quote off my head. aren't i clever :D)

Persephone Coorhagen
12th Sep 2002, 03:30
Kay, 1) "What I created , I CAN also destroy, child."
Not "What I created, I DID destroy"
He ain't implying a thing! He is stating that he possesses the power to do anything that he pleases, even genocide, and that Raziel knows that and cannot do fava beans about it. ('Child' accents Raziel's helplessness against Kain's absolute power)

2) "He doesn't leave anything half done" What exactly did he start?? And pleeeease don't say that Raziel's death lead to the genocide of his clan. We all know Kain didn't intend to end Raziel's unlife.

3) Why would Kain want to kill off Raziel's clan anyway? What would he gain outta that? They're probably the strongest of all the clans and an important military force. So, Kain has a motive for keeping them around, but what motive would he have for ridding Nosgoth of them?

4) It's just totally out of character for Kain to annihilate a perfectly useful clan unless they were some kind of immediate threat to him or his empire, and with the clans of his five other sons around to guard him, that's a pretty far fetched idea.

Anubis_Orr
12th Sep 2002, 03:34
It's possible that they suffered from attrition..... Clan wars were frequent and without a leader the Razelim would be fair game and no one would stop any of the other clans from destroying them for sport.

But we'll have to wait and see

Sade Lyrate
12th Sep 2002, 05:50
Garbagefanuk:
why annoy more? Because Kain wants to make certain that Raziel will follow
him, that there's no 'greater evil' or such to distract the RoS... So
Kain plays along. He answers Raziel's words with a phrase that could be
understood as admittance without it really being that. He doesn't necessarily
know what effect did Raziel's seemingly impromptu execution had on his 'eldest
son'; Kain doesn't necessarily know how strong Raziel's loyalty to him was, or
how easily it could be broken. All he may know about Raziel is that (for his
plans) it is quite important to get the RoS into following him, filled with fury,
perhaps. It is like you said:

His dead clan only adds another reason to his large list.
And it would indeed seem that "a few dead kids are gonna annoy him even
more". Raziel lost his 'cool' when meeting Kain at the Pillars in SR1.

What Raziel and the player know are not the same as what Kain knows. That
is something one is tempted to forget with media like LoK.

To Persephone Coorhagen:
Agree with you about that 'child'-part.
Then... "Why would Kain want to kill off Raziel's clan anyway?"
I think I may have come up with an idea to answer that... We all know
where and when Kain wants Raz to be; to make certain
that nothing can hinder his plans, wouldn't it be 'wise', after a fashion, to
get rid of all the things that 'hold' Raziel to the world of SR1? And if the world
will descend into Hell or its simile, no matter how strong of an army one
has, why not 'sacrifice' some of them 'for the greater good'?

Anubis_Orr:
Agreed. And perhaps the Razielim would have been 'lost' as well; directionless,
leaderless, perhaps a bit too easily scattered...'Easy' prey for the bored vampires.

Persephone Coorhagen
12th Sep 2002, 20:25
That's a very good point, Sade. I never thought of it that way.
Of course, looking at it like that, it still doesn't mean that Kain would have killed them. Perhaps he sent them into exile or hiding (maybe that explains the whereabouts of Lt. Turel. Ok...That was dumb, forget I said that)
I'm just having a hard time swallowing the idea that Kain would destroy an entire clan.

Did anyone else consider that Raziel didn't put a whole lot of effort into finding his clan? Almost like, had he looked a little harder, he would have found them. He just assumed that they had perished without any solid evidence.....seems strange to me. Although Raziel is gullible, I also think that he's an optimist and would have at least tried a little harder. There is definatly more to this story...

TG_Syd
12th Sep 2002, 21:25
Kain didn't create the Razielim, Raziel did. When Kain says, "What I created, i can also destroy child" he was talking about Raziel. Nobody in the game makes a direct comment about the fate of The Razielim. Kain was just pissing off Raziel with several obscure comments

Anubis_Orr
12th Sep 2002, 22:25
I don't think so Syd.... Kain created Raziel and the lieutenants and then they created their fledglings, so Kain too is responsible for them, a grandfather if you will. He created them by creating their makers

keepittrue
12th Sep 2002, 23:47
Originally posted by TG_Syd
Kain didn't create the Razielim, Raziel did. When Kain says, "What I created, i can also destroy child" he was talking about Raziel. Nobody in the game makes a direct comment about the fate of The Razielim. Kain was just pissing off Raziel with several obscure comments

I like this, I like this alot, however I always thought he meant what Anuibus just said.

Preacher
12th Sep 2002, 23:55
I posted this on gamefaqs a while ago and got some positive feedback, so what the hell, I'll post it here:

Raziel's clan.

Raziel:
I am your creation, Kain. Now, as before, you criticize your own work.
What have you done with my clan degenerate!? You have no right!
Kain:
What I have made, I can also destroy, child.
Raziel:
Damn you, Kain! You are not God! This act of genocide is unconscionble!
Kain:
Conscience? You dare speak to me of conscience!? Only when you have felt the
full gravity of choice should you dare to question my judgment! Your life's
span is a flicker compared to the mass of doubt and regret that I have borne
since Mortanius first turned me from the light. To know that the fate of the
world hangs dependent on the advisedness of my every deed. Can you even begin
to conceive what action you would take, in my position?

It is implied that Kain has killed Raziel's clan, In SR1, we are given the impression that Kain is evil and cold hearted, he tears off Raziel's wings, damns Nosgoth and rules it himself.

But this was intended, everything Kain did was orchestrated. He tore off Raziel's wings so that he could not fly out of, or prevent being thrown in the Abyss. If he did, the time stream would not flow as intended, and they would all be expelled.

If you still think it was out of jealousy, consider this. When Kain first sees that Raziel has evolved, he is surprised for only a second, he then immediately gets up and destroys his wings. He doesn't think about what to do or say anything, this was because he was waiting. When Raziel grows his wings, that is when he must be thrown into the Abyss.

Also, if you doubt Kain's sincerity, notice how nothing else happens to Raziel except that his wings have been torn. No beatings from him or his brethren, no shunning, just straight to what must be done. In fact, Kain doesn't even watch Raziel get thrown in, he turns his back and makes Turel and Dumah cast him in, he doesn't want to do it himself.

Plus look at what Kain said last in the above quote, "Can you even begin to concieve what action you would take, in my place?". Kain has orchestrated everything perfectly, and doesn't reveal all to Raziel, he only implies that he has killed Raziel's clan to make him mad so he would fight him, thus resulting in the physical blade getting destroyed, A crucial step in the time stream.

Kain:
The blade is vanquished. So it unfolds...and we are a step closer to our
destinies.

Take all this into account, and Raziel's clan is almost certainly alive and probably going to be included into SR3. I'd imagine that they are much like the other vampires in Sr1, except more divine and probably with wings

Anubis_Orr
13th Sep 2002, 00:29
Kain MAY not have been an active participant in the destruction of the Razelim (if it did occur) but that by no means guarantees their survival.... as you say Kain didn't even throw Raziel over the cliff himself he had others do it, if any of the lieutenants or their clans sought to destroy the Razelim do you think Kain would stop them?

And I think almost everybody knows that Kain orchestrated the events that occur to Raziel (with some help from the Chronoplast), SR2 makes that especially clear :)

Sade Lyrate
13th Sep 2002, 09:42
Persephone Coorhagen:
I'm having a bit of hard time accepting the idea that Kain has his fingers (or claws)
in everything. Or that someone else is solely responsible for all of the
mysteries of LoK or SR (ie. Turel...:rolleyes: )
And I agree with you about the bit concerning Razzie looking for his clan; thinking
about the story in whole, it would've been nice, but for SR1 alone, Razielim had
no particular meaning. As for Raziel's 'nature'... he seems a bit of a pessimist to
me at least. And finding his old haunts deserted and decimated, ruined and abandoned,
I guess, is enough 'evidence' for him. Also consider that Raz meets Melchiah
before he confronts Kain; the RoS has no reason to doubt his former brother's
sincerity, and Melchiah bluntly comments how Raziel is the last of his clan to die.
'Solid' evidence there hardly is, but enough for a heated mind, betrayed and
vengeful.

TG_Syd:

Nobody in the game makes a direct comment about the fate of The Razielim.
Nobody but Melchiah. Whether or not he's telling the truth can be debated, but one
can hardly find a more direct comment than what he answers as Raziel queries after
his own clan: "You are the last... to die..."

I agree with keepittrue: your idea's nice. But it also does seem that Anubis_Orr
speaks for me, too... for I have seen Kain as a 'granpa' of a kind to all the Clans.

Preacher:
<applauds> You have, 'twould appear, given some thought to this, too. However...
Like Anubis said (and like I have attempted to say earlier), Kain does not need
to have a part in Razielim's suggested demise. But that does not ascertain their
survival. There are others with power around, too.

Take all this into account, and Raziel's clan is almost certainly alive and probably going to be included into SR3. I'd imagine that they are much like the other vampires in Sr1, except more divine and probably with wings
But I will not say this or that about Razielim's survival; I would appreciate a
reference to them in a future LoK-game, but nothing more. As for their looks...?
Wings they ought to have, no doubt; alike to bats' and dragons'. Well-developed
musculature in the chest area, and something akin to a tail or such to aid with
steering and balance. But answer me this: Where would their 'divinity' come from?

Preacher
13th Sep 2002, 18:41
Why, from Raziel himself. He is Kain's handsome Raziel... Also, he was given the most of Kain's soul and is thereby the strongest. Look at Melchiah's clan, on the other hand...

Anubis_Orr
13th Sep 2002, 19:32
Preacher, do you think Kain looks divine? I don't think he does, so why would his soul cause another being to look divine?

I think the game and our outlook on the game is heavily influenced by religion, for instance our conception of an Angel is a being with long feathery wings, Janos for instance so he's associated with good and has a look of divinity, Kain on the other hand looks Satanic in origin but we know in fact that he is not evil.... And LOL I think we've all seen how twisted the people are who created the LoK universe (the fire forge, Raziel himself, Ariel, etc), and not to be cliche but ya can't judge a book by it's cover.

Time Streamer
13th Sep 2002, 21:44
Divinity can be viewed and portrayed in many ways. It hasn't got nothing to do with looks e.g. Kain.

Anubis_Orr
13th Sep 2002, 21:55
It has a lot to do with looks, divinity is a quality associated with being a god/goddess, and people have always imagined their gods looking a particular way or having some attribute (virtue, kindness, etc). Now it's not completely based on looks but looks have a lot to do with it and


Look at Melchiah's clan, on the other hand...
I believe he's ascribing divinity to the way they look.

garbagefanuk
13th Sep 2002, 22:37
Ok what is this? pick on chris day?!?

OK people if ur so sure that the Razelim caln is alive where did kain hide them? Just put them in the box for a few thousand years till Raziel popped up?

U wanted to know what Kain started and then finished? A war for nosgoth for 1... the little land remember, killing the serafan lord, killed the circle (didn't get half way thru, get tired and bugger off did he?)

Raziels clan might have been an important military strength but i have a question. a military against whom exactly? are we forgetting there are only vampires left in nosgoth. humans are to weak for anything really and dumah only fell due to his stupidity and arrogance.

Anubis_Orr
13th Sep 2002, 22:57
Deep breath..... in out, in out..... settle

IF the Razielim are alive why doesn't Kain have to have anything to do with their whereabouts? And people are just theorizing, nobody is right and nobody is wrong, at least until SR3 comes out and maybe not even then, and why can't people be as sure the Razielim are alive as you're sure their dead?

And as for military force, the vampires DO fight amongst themselves, the lieutenants let them do it for entertainment, eternity can be a long boring time. Dumah was arrogant and overconfident and he paid for it, humans may be weak in physical comparison to the vampires, but they are ingenuitive (weapons for instance).

Preacher
13th Sep 2002, 23:36
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
Preacher, do you think Kain looks divine? I don't think he does, so why would his soul cause another being to look divine?

I think the game and our outlook on the game is heavily influenced by religion, for instance our conception of an Angel is a being with long feathery wings, Janos for instance so he's associated with good and has a look of divinity, Kain on the other hand looks Satanic in origin but we know in fact that he is not evil.... And LOL I think we've all seen how twisted the people are who created the LoK universe (the fire forge, Raziel himself, Ariel, etc), and not to be cliche but ya can't judge a book by it's cover.

Ok, I see what you mean. But there's no denying Raziel was the pretty boy out of the brethren. You could see in the SR1 intro how divine he looked, and that's after more than a millenium of existing. Look at Dumah, he's the third most powerful and he's not as monstrous as Melchiah or Zephon, they all look significantly different but I definately think if Raziel continued to evolve as a vampire he'd have a more divine look to him.

And for the record, no, I don't think Kain looks divine. But I don't think Raziel inherited his looks from Kain either.

As for this whole "war" issue, it's quite possible Kain had Raziel's clan flee so they could take on the Hylden in SR3. After the end of SR2, it looks like they're making their way back into Nosgoth. I would imagine Kain kept Turel and Raziel's clan hidden somewhere as a fail-safe plan.

Anubis_Orr
14th Sep 2002, 00:24
I wouldn't say he looked divine.... just preternatural, but hey that's just me :):)

TG_Syd
14th Sep 2002, 02:23
Just a thought...mabye the army that Kain led into battle against the Sarafan Lord(BO2 Intro) were the Razielim?

Preacher
14th Sep 2002, 10:42
I didn't actually get a good look at them... I always assumed they were other vampires and Vorador's fledglings.

Anubis_Orr
14th Sep 2002, 12:27
Well they wouldn't be Vorador's fledglings because at the end of BO1 Kain was the last vampire, anywhere. I think Kain made several fledglings and then they made several fledglings and so on..... pretty soon you have an army, the good thing about a vampire army is that you can feed it and swell its ranks at the same time :)

LOKfanatic
17th Sep 2002, 18:42
I mean a whole millenium passed when they through Raz into the pit, his brothers went through changes but Kain stayed the same. Another question I want to throw out there, do you think in SR3 the image of Raz slaying Ariel will be addressed? In SR2, when Kain and Raz are at the Pillars that is when Ariel is killed, could it be that Raz did kill her in some other time line? Im still in awe over the whole story line in SR2, did anyone else drop the controller when you saw that it was Raz who killed Janos?

As for Raz's clan, I tend to agree with the idea that Kain might have banished them to that early time that lead to the creation of the Pillars with the wings or not he could not stop that evolution unless he killed them. There was always a method to his madness, everything he did was with a purpose and to destroy a whole clan of winged vamps doesnt seem to match the mind of Kain. Sorry if I went all over the place, this was my first post.

Anubis_Orr
17th Sep 2002, 18:58
There's a couple theories about Kain's lack of apparent change

- He is balance guardian and exempt from change
- He was made a vampire by necromancy
- He has changed but hides his gifts
- etc

As for Ariel, originally in SR1 Raziel was to kill her in order to empower the Reaver with her soul in order to finish off Kain, but this and many other aspects were cut from the game because of restrictions in time, and for obvious storyline changes. Visit
for more information on things cut from the LoK games.

And welcome to the forums :D
[Edit] Also for more information on all things LoK visit http://www.darkchronicle.co.uk/main.html for a comprehensive database on artifacts, places, people, etc

Rook
19th Sep 2002, 07:09
Originally posted by Anubis_Orr
There's a couple theories about Kain's lack of apparent change

- He is balance guardian and exempt from change
- He was made a vampire by necromancy
- He has changed but hides his gifts
- etc


There was also a suggestion on the old forums (can't remember who came up with it, though...sorry) that the Kain we see anytime after Raziel's multi-century swim might be a past version of him, and therefore would show no signs of further evolution. Meaning that the Kain of Raz's pre-Abyss time may be the one that is jockeying through time to the different eras that Raziel visits. Of course that would just leave the question as to what Kain's current self is up to if his past self is time hopping...:rolleyes:

:D

TG_Syd
19th Sep 2002, 19:14
My theory: Kain is still getting new Dark Gifts but his physical form isn't changing

lokkagrey
19th Sep 2002, 21:14
I tend to agree that the Razielim are still alive, but are still in the SR1 timeline. Raz never strayed to far from the pillars, save to the north, and Nosgoth is quite large. I think they are currently, so to say, battling the Hylden in the south begin lead by Turiel. Why not? After all he did escape Raz's vengence, and was said of, by Raz, '...so righteous and dutiful even as a vampire.' Perfect kinda a guy to lead an army for Kain.


As why Kain doesn't change while the others do. It could be his new gifts had not such dramatic a change for him, or maybe he even hasn't. Remember Raz had the honor of gaining a new gift that Kain did not.



Lokka Grey

History Abhors A Paradox

garbagefanuk
19th Sep 2002, 23:30
I read in an interview with someone, somewhere (can't remember) that Turel is gonna be in the 3rd soul reaver game. To try to finish the linking. Dunno if he's gonna be killed by Raziel or what but if he is then it would put a stick up the arse of Turel defending Nosgoth from the Hylden plan.

I seriously think Kain did kill Raziels clan simply becos its the way Kain is. He throws raziel into the abyss then sets about finishing his work and preparing for raziels return. Having Raziels clan around when he awakes would probably screw things up when they join with there creator and with an entire vampire clan and an immortal leader i wouldn't give him good odds.

Lady Kreliana
20th Sep 2002, 03:46
You do raise a good point, garbagefanuk. The Razielim would (naturally) be POed that Kain killed their sire, so there is a great chance that they retaliated. Kain would naturally defend himself. Also, I see your point about the Razielim getting in the way when Raziel returns from the abyss...besides, Kain needs Raziel's anger to be at it's peak so that he will follow him through time.

Everyone has very good theories and ideas. :)

Hash'ak'gik
17th Dec 2002, 18:46
I think that Kain attacked the Raziel clan and sucessfully wiped it out.

BUT... we all know Vamps made by Kain will over time evolve to adapt to the Spectral plane to become devourers of souls. So Kain may have taken the Razielim and kept them in Turels Clan terratory, waiting for a time that required a large and powerful army, possibly in a war againsit the Hylden.

But I'm a newbie so no-one cares what I think.:rolleyes:

FireSnake
17th Dec 2002, 18:57
The Razielim are very much alive. :D
-Hint, hint- :P

Raziel2
17th Dec 2002, 21:31
Well I think the Razielim are still alive. The reason for being so is that Kain was only trying to make Raziel mad for one reason and one reason alone to push him to the truth. Sure he made Raziel mad but the reason for saying he may have killed the Razielim is because think about this Raziel created them all he considered them his children and he is the father now consider this to wouldn't you be mad if your children were killed hell I know I would and also to a comment made earlier. About the Razielim being Kains army in Bo2 thats bs. I played Bo2 right before the film is said "400 years after the Nobleman Kain was cursed to walk the night as a vampire. And Centuries before Kain would rule the wasteland of nosgoth with his Lieutenant Raziel his conquest was stopped. By a new enemy. Vampires walk the night again and the Legacy of Kain continues." So you see it says Centuries so its not Raziels clan. Another thing to sure he supposedly whiped them out along time ago but if he had killed them no matter how long there would have been some evidance of it and you notice no bodies no nothing I think he just rellocated them which is very possible either that or they escaped to another place in nosgoth like others suggest.

fneh
18th Dec 2002, 00:41
Originally posted by keepittrue
Garbage, you hit the nail on the head on that last part, he didnt kill Raziel because of jelousy, remember Kain had a plan with Raziel, he only saw his wings as a sign which Amy already stated. It could be possible he killed Raziels clan but I find it hard to believe Kain just killing off all those Vampires just to get Raz mad.


I think kain would happily kill all raziel's clan just to make raz mad.

Kain can do what he wants remember. I don't think they are dead. THere isn't any proof they're dead.



Remember that in the manual it says how all the vampires were really bored and became excited when they were killing raziel as it was something new. Perhaps they went and hunted raziels clansmen down just for something to do?

Lady Kreliana
18th Dec 2002, 04:12
Originally posted by fneh

Remember that in the manual it says how all the vampires were really bored and became excited when they were killing raziel as it was something new. Perhaps they went and hunted raziels clansmen down just for something to do?

I never thought of that, and it's a very good theory. God knows that if the Razielim were attacked on all sides by five clans, they wouldn't stand a chance.

Raziel2
18th Dec 2002, 04:26
The statement that I couldn't believe was Kains army in Bo2 being the Razielim cause that just sounds dumb no offence. After all It said And Centuries before he would rule the wasteland of Nosgoth with his Lieutenant Raziel.

Duckman Drake
18th Dec 2002, 13:57
Originally posted by Darakari
Because of so much ambiguity, the Razelim and Turel are both big wild cards that the game designers can play as they see fit. That's part of the beauty of this series, for every question that the newest game answers, the same game creates ten more new questions. Because we are always seeing vaque glimpses of events, and because we are often viewing events from a particular character's point of view, hundreds of events are open to interpretation. That's why I keep playing this series, because they always leave us guessing and wondering what will happen next.


(all fired up) God, I love LOK!!!

the abyss
18th Dec 2002, 16:55
I believe that both the Razielim (and Turel for that matter) are very much dead. But, unlike some of the other people who have replied to this topic i believe moebius killed them...or sent someone else to do it for him. My reasoning?

First, at no point whatsoever in the LoK timline (at least not yet) was nosgoth completely deprived of vampires.This and the statement Janos gave, "With every vampire they kill, the humans are slitting their own throats" leads me to believe that not only is the health and state of the pillars tied in with the condition of nosgoth but also the state of the vampire population.

Secondly, it is quite obvious now that all the eldar god wants to do is gorge himself, thus why he was so determined to kill Kain since at the time he was the sole surviving vampire of nosgoth. Thus if Kain dies, no more vamps, the hylden come through regardless of the pillars and kill all the humans and lose a few of their number as well. All the time squiddy's gorging.

What's this got to do with the Razielim and Turelim? Does anyone honestly think that the eldar god himself is going to be kept starving because of a few vampire clans? IMO he got moebius and a few of the sarafan to go forward in time and do away with them. Kain took the credit for it so Raziel would follow.

Least, that's what I think:D.

(Edit) just remembered that Raziel wiped out the Turelim in SR1...not moebius.

Jidai Geki
19th Dec 2002, 02:51
Originally posted by Darakari


It is very likely that the Razelim clan all began to grow wings a LONG TIME BEFORE any other clan started to change. Raziel was definitely the first to grow wings, but the fact probably caught Kain's attention when a vast majority of the Razelim had already developed wings. Such a major change in a vampire clan would definitely catch his attention, and Raziel was probably summoned to Kain's throne room as the leader of his clan. Kain would not summon the entire clan to his throne in order to view their new "gift". Instead, he would only summon the clan leader, and have the leader demonstrate the new "gift" of his clan.



Even if this was the case, Kain is a pretty canny chap. I'm sure that he would have arranged to have the Razielim killed before they learned of their leader's fate. In any event he probably had them killed to prevent any kind of rebellion following Raziel's "death".

Raziel2
19th Dec 2002, 20:48
Ugh well I still say Razielim and the Turelim are alive after all Amy said they hadn't forgotten about Turel completly hes a big piece of the puzzle so why would he be a big piece if hes dead makes no sense. Also Kain wouldn't have killed the Razielim because he meant Raziel no real harm just performing Raziels destiny I think there just hiding. Oh btw I know this has nothing to do what so ever with the topic and I'll probably be flamed or something but Pre Fallen Lieutenant Raziel Action Figure is finally out I got it just now off www.cytoys.com just to let anyone who wants it know about it.

warpsavant
19th Dec 2002, 21:52
Hmmm. I still think the Razielim are dead.

I also don't see why Turel has to take care of the Razielim, when he has his own Clan. Doesn't seem fair to the Turelim.

I also can't believe that Razielim have wings. I don't remember any of Mels kids phasing, or Dumahs kids constricting. I'm guessing Raziels clan was wiped out well before any of them had the chance to sprout wings. I don't think Kain would risk one of them interfering in his plans.

Now with that said, if they have some way the Razielim become integral to the story, like they traveled back in time and became the ancients or something wacked, I say go for it. But I don't want to see Razielim just for the sake of seeing them.

Secrets Of Nosgoth
26th Dec 2002, 08:32
I agree with garbagefanuk on this one. After reading all 3 pages I was mad when I see he came up with my thought :)

I think that after killing Raziel, the Razielim would have been very angry with Kain. Even if Kain saw no reason to kill them, he would have even less of a reason to keep them alive though. What good is an army if you kill their general?

It reminds me of the movie Gladiator almost, when Maximus says something like "we'll see who my army is loyal too once they find out I'm alive." So if Kain were to keep them alive, it would be a similar thing once Raziel came back.

And what army in their right mind would be loyal to someone who killed off their creator? YOu can't trust Kain in that situation. Though he could probably force them to follow his commands, they wouldn't be nearly as effective, and even more likely to disobey.

darien_specter
11th Jan 2003, 06:29
Good discussion! A couple thoughts; oh, and I think that his clan is indeed dead:

The fact that there are no bodies, as opposed to Dumah's city, is not conclusive for their continued life. By the time Dumah got wiped out, the lieutenants seem to have retreated to hide their continuing evolution from Kain; so when the Dumahim were slaughtered, no one was around to clean up the mess. But if Kain ordered the extermination of the Razielim at the height of the empire, then they could well have dealt with the bodies in some fashion (maybe dumping them down the lake, like someone already suggested.)

Also, despite the corpselessness of it all, Raziel's (rather lavish, I've always thought - my favorite area in SR1) castle/keep/whatever has been seriously damaged: roofs caved in, which is natural decay; but also some kind of crest seems to have been removed over the fire pit; his throne room is flooded; and the statues of him are broken. I suppose it could have all gone to pot; but the statues especially look deliberate. Either that, or it could have been damaged in an assault...

I'd also like to mention that, even though it seems like Raziel was the only one who evolved, as I've mentioned before, his new gift was quite possibly only the most obvious. If you think about it, all of the others entail no immediate cosmetic difference; and so they could all have gained their new gifts right away, but were able, unlike Raziel, to conceal theirs.

Anyway, like I said in the most recent film thread, I have been giving that idea more lingering thought lately, and like I said, I have my 'Blood Omen' film end with precisely these events. I even thought about exactly this part: Raziel, with his new wings, goes forth from his keep, having addressed his clan, to present himself to Kain; he is executed; and Raziel's firstborn/lieutenant (hey, if Kain gets one, why not Raz? :D) is preparing to lead the clan in an assault on the Sanctuary when Kain arrives leading the other five clans, and the horrific battle ensues... or maybe they clash on the way (if they all died somewhere else, their bodies wouldn't be there would they?)... maybe a few of them are flying already, but get speared mid-air... and the last thing we see is the others furtively aware of their new, more easily hidden gifts, and Kain brooding on the beginning of the end of his empire... ahhh, it would be glorious! If I got to make a film, that is...

And of course, this is all just me adding my two cents to the speculation (the last being, of course, my own imaginative way of filling in the story!). There really is no way to say one way or the other - and we may never know...