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Umah Bloodomen
18th Aug 2002, 03:12
So I have been fumbling around for interesting discussion lately (in the midst of my other endeavors). Anyhow, I am becoming inclined to believe that our dear old, Vorador is not as righteous as we all believe him to be...

1. We know that Kain did not trust him when first going to Sanctuary.


Originally Spoken by Kain
Vorador. The reformed sado-hedonist of Termogent Forest. I had met him once before in his new role of patriarch. I still knew not to trust him.

2. Kain challenged Vorador's authority (and dedication to his cause and his race) by asking him to create more vampires.


Originally Spoken by Kain
and dying. Then rouse yourself. Make more of our kind.

In which Vorador blows it off and comes up with the excuse that he is weak. I think this is BS. If he were so dedicated to the vampire race, why wouldn't he make his army just a tad bit bigger to combat the oppressors? Why didn't he appear like he wanted to preserve his race? (I know this has been brought up before, but with all these other flaws I've pointed out, its beginning to look like Vorador has his own agendas).

3. After discovering that Umah has been captured, he again comes up with another excuse of why he cannot go and rescue her, it has to be Kain (seeing he can disguise himself).

Yeah, great leader. Let's just let whatever happens happen to one of our lead Cabal members. Better yet, lets go get Kain's butt kicked rescuing her, because he knows that TSL is lurking around (if he didn't inform him of this plan of Kain to rescue Umah himself).

4. Vorador never revealed to Kain that The Sarafan Lord was armed with the Soul Reaver. (Which could very well destroy him).
I get it. That must have slipped his mind. :rolleyes:

5. Vorador finally reveals that TSL was victorious over Kain because he possessed the Nexus Stone. (How convienient :rolleyes:).

6. It was Vorador who sent Kain to visit the Seer. How convienient yet again that TSL interrupts their little rendevouz by torching her house. Sounds like a little vampire told TSL what was going on. Vorador was the only one to know where Kain was going. We established Umah wasn't the spy.

6. The Seer sounds somewhat resentful towards Vorador...unlike Vorador's implications that they are allies.


Originally Spoken by the Seer
Do you so enjoy being Vorador's lapdog?

7. How is it that Janos knows of Vorador still being alive, yet Vorador is supposedly "surprised" to see him? Janos hadn't had any contact with Vorador in quite some time. I don't buy that Janos just "assumed". Besides, there was no mention of Vorador in the dialogue between he and Kain. I got the impression that vampires could sense one another (hence why Vorador supposedly sensed Umah being dead later on.)

8. Umah stressed heavily as she stole the Nexus Stone from Kain's chest that Vorador had instilled a bad reputation of Kain in the Cabal's head.


Originally Spoken by Umah
Vorador has told me all your stories, Kain. He said that you would stop at nothing to achieve your great ambition - absolute power.
And when you control Nosgoth, are we to believe that you would let us vampires live and do what we wish? We are the only ones who could stand in your way.
No. You will have to hunt us down and kill us, and how is that different from the rule of the Sarafan Lord?

Sure, badmouth him, then contract him to get his butt kicked so the vampires have no other choice but to give up their fight and go extinct. :rolleyes:

9. What is up with this?


Originally Spoken by Janos
I must tend to Vorador. Proceed without us, Kain. I can teleport you to a place near the gate, but you will have to close it on your own. Use the Nexus Stone. Cast it into the gate, and the magic of the stone will destroy it utterly.

Why did Vorador need "tending" to? I didn't see anything wrong with him. I most certainly didn't get the impression he needed moral support or that he was emotionally unstable. Is this the sign of Janos trying to turn Vorador back to a good guy or somethng? "Look son, being a spy is wrong...this isn't what I expected from you." (New television show...Janos knows best...LOL).

10. Kain confronts TSL about his spy, "Umah". TSL claims he has no spy called "Umah" but doesn't dismiss the fact he may have a spy. Gee, I wonder who that could be?

11. Janos arrives to attempt to "save the day" only a certian green individual who came to the Hylden city with him, is nowhere in sight. I would be a little ticked off if I had plans to attack and my partner just chickened out. But Vorador is better than that, he's no coward. Where did he go? I found his absence a bit odd at that pivotal moment of winning or losing. :rolleyes:

Obviously I am grasping at some straws tonight. **shrugs** Sue me. Feedback gladly appreciated nonetheless.

EDIT Had to adjust a quote tag that I entered wrong.

Lozza Mate
18th Aug 2002, 06:11
vorador needed tending to by Janos because he had just been shot by the soul reaver

Power reaver
18th Aug 2002, 09:21
Vorador seemed preety negative in SR2 too

Vorador:

What's the point - this world is beyond redemption.
Let the human cattle have it.

And he also didnt give the Ancients the importance they deserve


Raziel:

What am I to make of these secrets I've uncovered, then? The depictions of the winged race, the Pillars, and the Reaver?
Vorador turns back to Raziel as he responds -

Vorador:

Fairy tales, boy.
The delusions of an ancient culture, clinging to hope long after the world had discarded them.
Their bloodline trickled away, until only one of the Ancients remained - sustained solely by obligation and his unfaltering faith in the old prophesies.

The Ancients certainly arnt Fairy Tales , and Vorador seems to know what Raz is along with his destiny , and it looks that its connected with the Ancients so why is Vorador not giving them importance even though his maker was one .

Raz
18th Aug 2002, 13:04
Power reaver:


The Ancients certainly arnt Fairy Tales , and Vorador seems to know what Raz is along with his destiny , and it looks that its connected with the Ancients so why is Vorador not giving them importance even though his maker was one .

Vorador didn't say the Ancients were fairy tales, he said what was depicted in the murals were fairy tales. I believe that despite the fact that Vorador knows of Raziel and his destiny, along with what is shown in the murals, he has simply lost all hope, therefore thinking of fighting for Raziel's true destiny pointless. I guess it just seems to much of an uphill struggle... :)

Lady Kreliana
19th Aug 2002, 00:09
I never really thought about those things, Umah, but you do raise very good points. Perhaps that's going to be one of the revelations in BO3. Vorador ends up being the biggest traitor to his own species.

Angel of Music
19th Aug 2002, 03:05
Good show, Umah. Interesting questions you raise here. Maybe Vorador has succumbed to despair. Complete boredom with one's existence to the point of having nothing to live for is the great evil of existentialist thinking. Soren Kierkegaard once wrote that despair was the sickness unto death, and that the despair of infinitude was the lack of finitude. If Vorador were to have become so tired of his being, and endless life, isn't possible for him to look for something to give meaning or validation to his existence? Or ultimately an end to his infinitude?

Power reaver
19th Aug 2002, 15:04
Getting Bored and turning evil , Vorador knows how to live ;)

But Vorador isnt the Cowardish type , strangely after killing 6 guradians , he gives up , and says "this World is Beyond Redemption" and "We are out of Luck" and things like that . And after showing all that strength in SR2 by killing 6 guardians he doesent take part actively in most fights , even though he has enough tricks to ensure that the Vampires win .

Lady Kreliana
19th Aug 2002, 15:26
Maybe Vorador's decided that self preservation's the best way to go now, for some odd reason. He might just not care about anyone else anymore. Maybe he was just fed up with the Cabal. One never knows...until the sequel. :)

keepittrue
21st Aug 2002, 08:09
Originally posted by Lady Kreliana
Maybe Vorador's decided that self preservation's the best way to go now, for some odd reason. He might just not care about anyone else anymore. Maybe he was just fed up with the Cabal. One never knows...until the sequel. :)



No disrespect to you but if that were the case than that would be BS. Vorador loved Vampires and dispised humans.

Response to Umah:

1. I still never got this, he seemed like he trusted him in BO1. V should be the one not to trust Kain.

2. I dont really see it as challenging authority, I think Kain was just using common sense but not knowing how weak V really was at the time threw him off. Only agenda I see of V is him wanteing a properous life with Vamps but anything is possible.

3. V was weak at the time and could not rescue her, and Kain would be more unnoticable.

4. True, but I think he knew anyway.

5. ????????

6. True, very true.

7. Did Janos know, even if he did he must have assumed he never died or his sensing ability is more stronger than any other Vamps considering he is an ancient and that he sired V. Also V thought Janos to be dead.

8. Some real BS, either she was lying or V was just mad because of the catastrophy Kain created by not listening to him. Umah or V has no proof that his action was acting of his own self power. I dont even like that she mentioned that.

9. He was shot and weak.

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Aug 2002, 19:06
I had forgotten that Vorador was struck down by TSL. I can believe he may be a little "jolted" by this, but Janos was struck too...both are ancient vampires (although Janos is even more so). Janos can go off and "tend to Vorador" after being struck, but it takes Vorador so much longer to recover? Even if Janos was still weak, he still joined Kain during the final battle (dedicated to his race and their survival - perhaps prepared to die a martyr for this - fight on without question despite what has happened to him physically. A true hero.) Vorador did not.

Still something odd about this "dedication" to his race.

Angel of Music
22nd Aug 2002, 21:54
I totally agree with you on the Janos issue, Umah. He is a trooper, dedicated not to the vampires as much as he is to subverting the Hylden and their attempts to regain Nosgoth. He clearly seems to have his priorities in order. Now, the SL asks the question of Kain once, "Did you ever consider that mine was the righteous cause" (not a precise quote). Well, maybe so, but the Hylden don't really seem to be working for the betterment of Nosgoth, now do they? They were banished for a reason, and banishment is mercy compared to total annhilation. I feel as though the Ancients were a just and merciful race, dedicated to the preservation of Nosgoth. As for Vorador, true, he did assault the circle for their sponsorship of the Sarafan and their subsequent vampire genocide. However, some time after his retreat from the world of man, he appears to have become very disillusioned about the state of the world. This is made clear in his dialogue with Raziel, which, coincidentally, happens well before Kain is made a vampire. He says that no matter what, Nosgoth is going to get flushed. This is a very poor attitude, one of total despair.( See my previous post on this topic) Why, after indicating complete disgust and apathy about the world, would Vorador suddenly, two centuries later, give such a sizable care as to begin creating Vampires and organizing them? For that matter, why is he still alive? Here is my prediction: Vorador has succumbed to despair, having been burdened with an endless life(infinitude), and has seen his race devastated by a genocidal fanaticism twice. He has descended in to despair, brought on by his lack of finitude, to the point of having almost nothing to live for. I feel like he is searching for something that will either validate(give meaning to) his existance, or bring about his end.
Either way, I think he will end up betraying his race, be it intentional or not.

Umah Bloodomen
22nd Aug 2002, 22:18
Originally spoken by The Sarafan Lord
Did it not occur to you that perhaps my cause, and not yours, is the cause of right and justice? That your ambition to rule this world is but the youthful craving of a petty noble, who has gained too much power, but never enough.

I found that quote Angel. :)


Originally posted by Angel of Music
I totally agree with you on the Janos issue, Umah. He is a trooper, dedicated not to the vampires as much as he is to subverting the Hylden and their attempts to regain Nosgoth. He clearly seems to have his priorities in order. Now, the SL asks the question of Kain once, "Did you ever consider that mine was the righteous cause" (not a precise quote). Well, maybe so, but the Hylden don't really seem to be working for the betterment of Nosgoth, now do they? They were banished for a reason, and banishment is mercy compared to total annhilation. I feel as though the Ancients were a just and merciful race, dedicated to the preservation of Nosgoth.

That quote right there makes me believe that the Ancients may not be all high and mighty either. I would find it rather ironic that we all place our faith in Janos saving the day when he turns out to be worse than we ever imagined. LOL.

At this point in the plot development, I am giving Janos the benefit of the doubt and believe he is righteous. (It's hard, but he's really given no indication to a treacherous nature). I just have a gut feeling that something isn't quite right with him.

I question your view of "betterment of Nosgoth". The Hylden are obviously a more technoligically advanced race. Perhaps their method of "bettering" Nosgoth is to rid it of it's foolish belief in the magical institution we've all come to know and love. Out with magic, in with logic.

I agree that the Hylden were banished for a reason, but my questions here are:

1. What exactly were/are those reason(s)?
2. Were the reason(s) for the banishment just or was it an attempt by the Ancients to rid the world of their successors.

The only evidence that the murals depicting the Ancients vs. Hylden show us is that a big war happened between them, and the Ancients were revered as "holy" beings.

I feel that a big piece of this puzzle has been left out within the murals.



Originally posted by Angel of Music
As for Vorador, true, he did assault the circle for their sponsorship of the Sarafan and their subsequent vampire genocide. However, some time after his retreat from the world of man, he appears to have become very disillusioned about the state of the world. This is made clear in his dialogue with Raziel, which, coincidentally, happens well before Kain is made a vampire. He says that no matter what, Nosgoth is going to get flushed. This is a very poor attitude, one of total despair.( See my previous post on this topic) Why, after indicating complete disgust and apathy about the world, would Vorador suddenly, two centuries later, give such a sizable care as to begin creating Vampires and organizing them? For that matter, why is he still alive? Here is my prediction: Vorador has succumbed to despair, having been burdened with an endless life(infinitude), and has seen his race devastated by a genocidal fanaticism twice. He has descended in to despair, brought on by his lack of finitude, to the point of having almost nothing to live for. I feel like he is searching for something that will either validate(give meaning to) his existance, or bring about his end.
Either way, I think he will end up betraying his race, be it intentional or not.

I can agree with Vorador's sense of dillusion. (Kind of Poe-esque there). Janos claims that Vorador has been through a lot over the course of his entire existence. We aren't clear on his human life, we know that the death of his sire was traumatic, as well was losing his head. I feel that another event must have transpired to thrust Vorador from his state of despair back to the front lines. (This would be a good place to enter a bargain between Vorador and a certain Sarafan Lord). Vorador has played the good guy all this time, or perhaps even the semi-neutral party, why not try the other side for a change? Just to see where (if anywhere) it would get him. There is a strong animosity between Vorador and Kain, perhaps this could be where his sudden drive comes in to play. (He wants Kain dead).

I feel Vorador is getting insider information from somewhere as well. (Unsure from whom though). It would make sense. This would better enable him to tip off the Sarafan Lord to Kain's activities.

I am getting more anxious as this probe into the elusive Vorador goes deeper. I surely hope we will find out more information regarding him in future installments.

Vamperic
24th Aug 2002, 16:12
Like I said in another thread they should make a game all about Vorador and his adventures through the centuries.

garbagefanuk
30th Aug 2002, 01:13
Umm... i havn't been in this forum for about 8 months and i'm confused on the whole Vorador thing in Blood Omen 2... Didn't he die in BO1? How can he be around 600 years after his death?

No-one else find this strange? Kain comes back to the present and see's Vorador die. Kills Mobius, chooses to rule nosgoth in it's damnation, goes to war, loses and bumps into Vorador again... Is this sequence of events not confusing anyone else?

Umah Bloodomen
30th Aug 2002, 01:28
It surprised us, but we've moved on. (Many of us have been around longer than 8 months :p)

Some are suggesting that BO2 is an altered timeline, others suggest its only a half altered timeline, many others don't understand Vorador's return and we all pretty much await future installments of the series to reveal this one.

I still speculate it may have something to do with his ring, which he gave to Kain (who now wears it as an earring). I could be far off though. **shrugs**

garbagefanuk
30th Aug 2002, 04:00
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
It surprised us, but we've moved on. (Many of us have been around longer than 8 months :p)

Some are suggesting that BO2 is an altered timeline, others suggest its only a half altered timeline, many others don't understand Vorador's return and we all pretty much await future installments of the series to reveal this one.

I still speculate it may have something to do with his ring, which he gave to Kain (who now wears it as an earring). I could be far off though. **shrugs**



Yeah i been a member longer than 8 months to :) i just havn't been in for 8 months. my old comp was stolen so i lost the link and i just found it today and i forgot my id and passowrd so i made a new 1. altho i think its the same name as before :) but i remember warpsavant from allllllong time ago. i don't remember u tho? anyway, whats this about the earring? whay do u think it has something to do with that?

Vampmaster
30th Aug 2002, 21:35
I think the vampires and the hylden are being pitted against each other by a third party and that vampires and hylden were once the same race. This could be what Janos is hiding because he doesn't want to confuse Raziel. That or he may not know as much as he would like Raziel to beleive. Just because he's hiding things doesn't mean he's a bad guy.

Umah Bloodomen
30th Aug 2002, 22:08
Originally posted by Vampmaster
I think the vampires and the hylden are being pitted against each other by a third party and that vampires and hylden were once the same race. This could be what Janos is hiding because he doesn't want to confuse Raziel. That or he may not know as much as he would like Raziel to beleive. Just because he's hiding things doesn't mean he's a bad guy.

You know, I've had the same feeling for the last couple of months myself. (Although I haven't developed a thorough enough theory to describe it without sounding mad). :p ;)

There was no inclination of the Hylden originating from (pre-banishment) anywhere else but Nosgoth. (Explain that one?)

They seem to be "in-tuned" with Nosgoth and the Ancients (more indepthly than just being a non-domestic race).

It would make Janos look like a complete *** if he were to reveal that his race and that of the Hylden were originally the same. I think he would lose some credibility with those who look up to him.

I will dwell on this a bit more and attempt to develop a decent theory to propose.




Originally posted by GarbageFanuk

Yeah i been a member longer than 8 months to i just havn't been in for 8 months. my old comp was stolen so i lost the link and i just found it today and i forgot my id and passowrd so i made a new 1. altho i think its the same name as before but i remember warpsavant from allllllong time ago. i don't remember u tho? anyway, whats this about the earring? whay do u think it has something to do with that?

I first registered in April 2002. ;) As for Vorador's earring, he gave it to Kain following their meeting during Blood Omen. He told Kain that if he ever needed his assistance/guidance etc. that the ring would summon him immediately. It isn't clear on what the properties of the ring are. Kain ended up wearing the ring in his ear - IMO as a symbol of Vorador's view of the vampire race being "dark gods" - similar to a tribute, although I don't think it was to honor Vorador himself.

If the ring proves to house the soul of Vorador (which is speculation) it could reveal a part of the reason as to why it was so easy for Vorador to return from the dead. Again, that is speculation.

the abyss
2nd Sep 2002, 05:18
i only have a reply to your second question umah. vorador was pretty weak, if you've noticed in SR2 there is a statue of moebius holding vorador's head....some believe it is his actual head...and if you think about the timline of it he was probably ressurected some time before blood omen 2.....now that i think about it that also explains why janos needed to "tend to him"

Angel of Music
2nd Sep 2002, 07:37
Originally posted by the abyss
i only have a reply to your second question umah. vorador was pretty weak, if you've noticed in SR2 there is a statue of moebius holding vorador's head....some believe it is his actual head...and if you think about the timline of it he was probably ressurected some time before blood omen 2.....now that i think about it that also explains why janos needed to "tend to him"

Vorador? Weak? This vampire with the fortitude to brazenly assault the circle, and defeat Malek........Twice? Weak? I hardly feel as though weak is a fitting adjective for Vorador. Kain certainly doesn't want to rumble with Vorador, so what does that make Kain? A total pansy? I really would like to know what about Vorador gives off the impression of weakness, because I certainly haven't seen it yet. Disillusioned, I can understand. Apathetic, I can see. But weak? I just can't see Vorador as being weak. I mean, his bloodline comes straight off of one the Ancients. That has to count for something.

garbagefanuk
2nd Sep 2002, 18:03
Originally posted by Angel of Music


Vorador? Weak? This vampire with the fortitude to brazenly assault the circle, and defeat Malek........Twice? Weak? I hardly feel as though weak is a fitting adjective for Vorador. Kain certainly doesn't want to rumble with Vorador, so what does that make Kain? A total pansy? I really would like to know what about Vorador gives off the impression of weakness, because I certainly haven't seen it yet. Disillusioned, I can understand. Apathetic, I can see. But weak? I just can't see Vorador as being weak. I mean, his bloodline comes straight off of one the Ancients. That has to count for something.


Ur right, Voardor was never weak. He just seems to have lost the will to fight directly thats all. He was once the most powerful vampire becos of his age and wisdom but i think in his dwindling years he just became an arrogant old man and really lost the will to fight directly. Ur comment on his bloodline link i doubt really gives him anything. If thats the case then what type of vampire would Kain be? He's directly raised from death by the guardian of death mortanius, that must give him a little lee-way in the power circle as he also happens to be the guardian of balance. No wonder he ended up ruling the enitre world and annihilating the humans :)

keepittrue
4th Sep 2002, 03:29
Angel of Music, I think he was refering to the BO2 Vorador, in BO2 V was weak because he created a whole new race of Vamps and according to him it made him weak during/after the process. I def agree with you and I totally think they made an excuse for V being weak as just a cop out to why he most likely died the second time around most likely by Kain. V lost his whole prestige in BO2.

TG_Syd
4th Sep 2002, 03:56
Correct me if I'm wrong but if Vorador is alive in BO2 he could have been alive during SR1...Unless he dies during BO3

the abyss
4th Sep 2002, 21:29
the only reason i say V was weak is because it looks to me that he was KILLED before blood omen 2 and revived shortly beforehand.....being dead takes alot outta someone ancient or no ancient.....hell, look at janos....if ya ask me he was weak as hell being just brought back from that freaky undead state as that weird lookin demon thing....that's probably the only reason the sarafan lord beat him....i mean he is an ancient and he almost definately knew enough magic spells to take care of one hylden......the only magic we do see him use is the teleportation spell.....and even umah can do that and she doesn't even have her cloven hands yet..................and yes vorador very well could be alive in sr1 and almost definately bo3.....i'd like to see him in either one....

keepittrue
5th Sep 2002, 01:29
I have to agree only on the part on when you said he COULD be weak because of his death. However you have to remember the SL is also an ancient and very old, maybe even older than Janos so he is also powerful. Janos was not at full strengh mainly because he was being sapped of his life blood to the point of starvation. Vorador was weak because he made the new race of Vamps which so conviently also made him weak. I would liked to see Vorador die and stay dead in BO1 and just be remembered as a legend.

garbagefanuk
5th Sep 2002, 17:47
Yeah i agree. It sucked the way they brought him back with no reason and kain was like totally different to him and seemed to have forgotten that he watched him die. Keep with the timeline silly makers :p

Umah Bloodomen
6th Sep 2002, 00:28
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
Yeah i agree. It sucked the way they brought him back with no reason and kain was like totally different to him and seemed to have forgotten that he watched him die. Keep with the timeline silly makers :p

Kain didn't forget that Vorador died.


Originally Spoken by Kain in Chapter 11

Do you so wish to return to the grave, old friend? You are in no position to challenge me.

I think that the reason for Vorador's return was to give us insight into his treacherous nature. (Review thhis thread to discover some of his flaws as a "good guy").

About the only thing cheesy about Vorador's return is if it ends up not having a purpose or being disclosed. There is still another game to come (SR3) and perhaps two more games (if we consider the BO3 possibility) to reveal how and why Vorador returned. It hasn't gotten too carried away yet. **knocks on wood**.

They did keep with the timeline. Although which timeline is up for speculation at this point. There is still a big chunk between BO1 and BO2 that we haven't been priviledged enough to witness yet.

garbagefanuk
6th Sep 2002, 17:46
I'll have to take ur word on that. I don't remember him saying that but he probably did cos my memory sucks. Its only 200 years in between BO1 and BO2 there is soul reaver 3 to come which is raziel so i doubt is gonna show how vorador was resurected and why he is back. 200 years for Vorador to be brought back, to make the vampire army kain leads and loses and then create the cabal. I'm not seeing how he could do all this in only 200 years after he died?

Preacher
13th Sep 2002, 00:29
Phew, I got a lot of stuff to reply to...

Firstly, a while back someone said the Hylden wanted to do away with magic as they are more advanced. Out with magic, in with logic, or something like that.

I disagree, if the Hylden didn't use or like magic, why would they put the blood curse on the ancients?

Secondly, I don't think Vorador has given up at all. Read my theory:

In the SR2 cutscene with Vorador, it would seem that Vorador was looking at the pillars' decay and Raziel's appearance in a naive sort of way. When, he was probably the only one in that time period who new exactly what was going on.

Vorador:
You're a ragged excuse for a savior.

Vorador knew Raziel was destined to become the saviour of Nosgoth, I think he knows Kain will try and prevent this, and so he makes a sarcastic remark.

Vorador:
I've been watching you since you emerged from that accursed stronghold.
Strange that your arrival coincides with the corruption of the Pillars. But
I'm wondering - are you the catalyst of these events, or the answer to them?

Firstly, for someone who was no where near the pillars when they decayed, he found out awfull fast about it. I'm betting he already knew they were going to decay. And the fact that he questions if Raziel is responsible doesn't get my attention, it's the fact that he questions if he is the answer to them.

Raziel (steely):
I don't know what you mean.

Vorador:
I will speak plainly, then. I distrust your origins, stranger. Seeing you
crawl from the putrid depths of Moebius's Keep makes me question your
purpose here. And what should I make of your appearance? Not human, clearly -
and more demon than vampire. And the Pillars - it is no mere coincidence that
your arrival in that clearing heralded the Pillars' decay. And so I ask you
plainly: are you the instrument of the Pillars' destruction, or their
salvation?

Now he asks again if he is the reason the pillars decay, or if he can save them. I think what's happened is that Janos has told him of the destined one who will save the pillars with the Reaver. Vorador was created by Janos, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Janos:
Raziel, my child. What have they done to you?

This would also explain how Janos knew Raziel when he first saw him.

Vorador (slightly annoyed):
Very well, let us look at the other side of the coin - I have followed your
journey, and watched as you blithely unlocked secrets that have been sealed
and forbidden for thousands of years. The path you have been treading is open
to only one being...

This is exactly what I mean about Vorador knowing more than he lets on, Janos MUST have told him something.

Vorador:
You don't know what you are, do you?

At this point Vorador realizes that Raziel doesn't know about his grizzly fate, or what his true destiny is, not the saviour of Nosgoth, but the saviour of the pillars.

Raziel:
What am I to make of these secrets I've uncovered, then? The depictions of
the winged race, the Pillars, and the Reaver?

[Vorador turns back to Raziel as he responds.]

Vorador:
Fairy tales, boy. The delusions of an ancient culture, clinging to hope long
after the world had discarded them. Their bloodline trickled away, until only
one of the Ancients remained - sustained solely by obligation and his
unfaltering faith in the old prophecies.

This proves that Vorador knew Janos, and that he told him about Raziel and his role in Nosgoth. I think we will see Vorador and Janos both make a return in SR3.

I think that the purpose of this cut scene was just for Vorador to clarify if what Janos told him about Raz was true.

As for Vorador's presence in BO2, I still think that Kain resurrected him, after all, in the opening movie Kain and Vorador are looking over a map of Nosgoth. Kain probably needed him to help dominate Nosgoth.

On a side note, how does Vorador make vampires anyway? Does he turn humans into them or what? I hope it's not something like:

Vorador: "Uuggggghhhhh!"

Umah: "Push! Push!"

Vorador: "Aaaaaggghhhh!"

Umah: "I see a head!"

(2 hours later)

Vorador: Whew... just 1871 more to go...

Although it would explain why he's so weak. Heh heh...

Umah Bloodomen
14th Sep 2002, 02:53
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
I'll have to take ur word on that. I don't remember him saying that but he probably did cos my memory sucks. Its only 200 years in between BO1 and BO2 there is soul reaver 3 to come which is raziel so i doubt is gonna show how vorador was resurected and why he is back. 200 years for Vorador to be brought back, to make the vampire army kain leads and loses and then create the cabal. I'm not seeing how he could do all this in only 200 years after he died?

You are wrong on this one. It is a 400 year gap between BO1 and BO2. Kain merely went unconscious 200 years after BO1 and slept through the 200 years prior to BO2.

I think it will be touched on in SR3 (depending on where the time travel leads us) and it is possible for Vorador to have created the Cabal, because they were simply forces left over from Kain's army that banded together to form an underground resistance as well as perhaps a few more he sired. Umah was created in the 200 years before BO2 because she wasn't in the opening FMV to BO2 (during the war against the Sarafan Lord).

I will look up a thread related to the reproduction habits of Vorador that a lot of us theorized on and post it here for you to check out.

Umah Bloodomen
14th Sep 2002, 03:35
Originally posted by Preacher
Phew, I got a lot of stuff to reply to...

Firstly, a while back someone said the Hylden wanted to do away with magic as they are more advanced. Out with magic, in with logic, or something like that.

I disagree, if the Hylden didn't use or like magic, why would they put the blood curse on the ancients?


Secondly, I don't think Vorador has given up at all. Read my theory:

In the SR2 cutscene with Vorador, it would seem that Vorador was looking at the pillars' decay and Raziel's appearance in a naive sort of way. When, he was probably the only one in that time period who new exactly what was going on.

Vorador:
You're a ragged excuse for a savior.

Vorador knew Raziel was destined to become the saviour of Nosgoth, I think he knows Kain will try and prevent this, and so he makes a sarcastic remark.

Vorador:
I've been watching you since you emerged from that accursed stronghold.
Strange that your arrival coincides with the corruption of the Pillars. But
I'm wondering - are you the catalyst of these events, or the answer to them?

Firstly, for someone who was no where near the pillars when they decayed, he found out awfull fast about it. I'm betting he already knew they were going to decay. And the fact that he questions if Raziel is responsible doesn't get my attention, it's the fact that he questions if he is the answer to them.

Vorador is far from naive. His clever attempt to "seem" as if he knew nothing further supports my own theory of his treachery throughout the series. As far as the rest of your statement here, you are forgetting a few minor details:

1. Termogent Forest (where Vorador lives in his mansion) is located near the Pillars of Nosgoth. I am sure he saw their condition when he left his own home to feed.

2. At the time that Vorador had this little discussion with Raziel, it was during the 30 years prior to the events of Blood Omen - more specifically, prior to Kain's assasination. During this time, Ariel was murdered, Nupraptor was driven mad and inflicted his psychic wrath upon the Circle of Nine, causing their pillars to decay - hence the purpose of BO1 and why Kain has to restore them by killing the corrupted circle members. Raziel appearing in that time period (coincidentally during the time the corruption was taking place) lead Vorador to question if he was the catalyst or not.


Originally posted by Preacher


Raziel (steely):
I don't know what you mean.

Vorador:
I will speak plainly, then. I distrust your origins, stranger. Seeing you
crawl from the putrid depths of Moebius's Keep makes me question your
purpose here. And what should I make of your appearance? Not human, clearly -
and more demon than vampire. And the Pillars - it is no mere coincidence that
your arrival in that clearing heralded the Pillars' decay. And so I ask you
plainly: are you the instrument of the Pillars' destruction, or their
salvation?

Now he asks again if he is the reason the pillars decay, or if he can save them. I think what's happened is that Janos has told him of the destined one who will save the pillars with the Reaver. Vorador was created by Janos, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Janos:
Raziel, my child. What have they done to you?

This would also explain how Janos knew Raziel when he first saw him.

At which point would Janos be able to tell him? It isn't clear yet as to when Janos was resurrected. When SR2 ended, it was 500 years before BO1 and about 470 before the Vorador/Raz discussion. You are also forgetting that "the destined one" will not be saving the Pillars with the Reaver because he is the Reaver

There is a big gap missing from this storyline at this point. Janos knows Raziel because he created the Reaver, yes. The question is, was Raziel actually an ancient or did Janos create him through magic as well?


Originally posted by Preacher


Vorador (slightly annoyed):
Very well, let us look at the other side of the coin - I have followed your
journey, and watched as you blithely unlocked secrets that have been sealed
and forbidden for thousands of years. The path you have been treading is open
to only one being...

This is exactly what I mean about Vorador knowing more than he lets on, Janos MUST have told him something.

Why does it have to be Janos? If Vorador is a traitor, then there are a lot of other people to fill him in as well. Let's just add Moebius to our little list, sure he kills Vorador in the future, but doesn't mean he couldn't tell Vorador what's up in the past. We could also add Hash'ak'gik to our little list of informants now couldn't we? As I said, it's too early to assume what side Vorador is actually on, but it is leading to the side of the enemy. Oh yeah, again back to when did Janos tell him? Again it would have to be before his death 470 years before this little discussion with Raziel.


Originally posted by Preacher


Vorador:
You don't know what you are, do you?

At this point Vorador realizes that Raziel doesn't know about his grizzly fate, or what his true destiny is, not the saviour of Nosgoth, but the saviour of the pillars.

Um, sorry to burst your little bubble here, but if the Pillars are saved then so is Nosgoth because the Pillars are the lifeforce of Nosgoth. Nosgoth is doomed without the Pillars because that is how it was set up by the Ancient race.


Originally posted by Preacher


Raziel:
What am I to make of these secrets I've uncovered, then? The depictions of
the winged race, the Pillars, and the Reaver?

[Vorador turns back to Raziel as he responds.]

Vorador:
Fairy tales, boy. The delusions of an ancient culture, clinging to hope long
after the world had discarded them. Their bloodline trickled away, until only
one of the Ancients remained - sustained solely by obligation and his
unfaltering faith in the old prophecies.

This proves that Vorador knew Janos, and that he told him about Raziel and his role in Nosgoth. I think we will see Vorador and Janos both make a return in SR3.

Okay, we need to clarify this right now. Of course Vorador knew Janos - Janos sired Vorador. I am sure they were pretty close for a long time during the prehistory of Nosgoth. But that doesn't change the fact that Janos died and Vorador lost contact with his sire. Plenty of time for Vorador to hate humanity, become a hermit and do whatever it was necessary to ensure his survival.


Originally posted by Preacher
I think that the purpose of this cut scene was just for Vorador to clarify if what Janos told him about Raz was true.

As for Vorador's presence in BO2, I still think that Kain resurrected him, after all, in the opening movie Kain and Vorador are looking over a map of Nosgoth. Kain probably needed him to help dominate Nosgoth.


1. I think the cutscene was designed to inform Raziel that the puzzle was a lot bigger than he had previously expected and delved way further into history than the little blue guy could ever imagine.

2. :rolleyes: Kain did not resurrect Vorador. He would not resurrect Vorador. Did you happen to notice that they don't like each other very much and that they work together out of convienience. I get it, you missed this:


Originally spoken by Kain upon first entering Sanctuary in BO2
Vorador. The reformed sado-hedonist of Termogent Forest. I had met him once before in his new role of patriarch. I still knew not to trust him.

The opening FMV to BO2 occurs 400 years before the events of BO2 - not too long after the events of BO1 - the first attack upon TSL. Back then, yes Kain did need Vorador, for one reason:


Originally spoken by Kain in Sanctuary of BO2
>They thought once before they had destroyed us, yet you proved them wrong. You created a new race - something I could never do - and from that race, I had my army.

Reproduction. At this time, Kain could not reproduce the vampire species.

And let us not forget that Vorador even stresses to Kain that they are no longer fighting for the same goal:


Originally spoken by Vorador in Sanctuary of BO2
Now we are divided.


Originally posted by Preacher
On a side note, how does Vorador make vampires anyway? Does he turn humans into them or what?

I will post the thread here where that was discussed.

Umah Bloodomen
14th Sep 2002, 04:06
Here's that thead I promised:

A question about Vorador (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2356&highlight=vorador+reproduction)

Preacher
14th Sep 2002, 10:52
Thanks for the thread. I shall read it momentarily.

You seem pretty convinced that Janos couldn't have told Vorador anything. Well not after he's had his heart ripped out or imprisoned. But Janos did raise him. I think he told him before any of these events occured.

Oh, and fair enough. I guess Kain didn't raise Vorador... you raise some good points.

lokkagrey
14th Sep 2002, 16:14
In BO2 at the beginning, Umah whispers to Kain after which he
has a brief mental aside:

"... I wonder if it was I who had turned her."

Does this suggest that Kain had also raised some vampires for his army? Maybe Vorador created the bulk of then while Kain set
out upon his conquest of Nosgoth. Afterall Kain did raise the
Sarifan Priests to rule as his leutinants.

On other thing I recently noticed in SR2 was that Janos told Raziel
that the Pillars chose new guardians at birth. They began to
choose humans because, as Janos stated, "... vampires are no longer born."

If this is true the Vorador must be the product of Janos' own
bloodlust curse. It maybe that he killed Vorador as a human and
his own sense of justice caused him to recreate him as a vampire.

Hopefully some of these question will be answered in later installments of the series.

As for how Vorador could be brought back to life after BO1, it might be explained in SR1. In Raziel's first fight it is stated that the only way to completely destroy a vampire is by water, fire,
sunlight, or wounds that pierce through. Vorador was executed by giullotine, so if someone really wanted to ressurrect him they would just have to bring head and body back together. As for this soul it may have been like the vampiric souls in SR1.

Since I finished BO2, I've started to play the others again to get a sense of these seeming faults with the story. Many things you guys have said make sense but you may have miss these too.

Thanks for helping to clarify things.

Lokka Grey

Umah Bloodomen
15th Sep 2002, 02:20
Originally posted by Preacher
You seem pretty convinced that Janos couldn't have told Vorador anything. Well not after he's had his heart ripped out or imprisoned. But Janos did raise him. I think he told him before any of these events occured.


Don't put words in my mouth please. I merely stated that there is a possibility that it was not Janos who informed Vorador of anything. My theories and speculation are not 100% factual and a lot of people are taking them as just that. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by lokkagrey
In BO2 at the beginning, Umah whispers to Kain after which he
has a brief mental aside:

"... I wonder if it was I who had turned her."

Does this suggest that Kain had also raised some vampires for his army? Maybe Vorador created the bulk of then while Kain set
out upon his conquest of Nosgoth. Afterall Kain did raise the
Sarifan Priests to rule as his leutinants.

Where was this said exactly? I would like to be pointed into the right direction on this one. Kain did not create any vampires prior to BO2 or during BO2 for that matter. He learned that feat after-the-fact. Let us not forget this quote:


Originally spoken by Kain to Vorador in Sanctuary
They thought once before they had destroyed us, yet you proved them wrong. You created a new race - something I could never do - and from that race, I had my army.


Originally posted by lokkagrey
On other thing I recently noticed in SR2 was that Janos told Raziel that the Pillars chose new guardians at birth. They began to choose humans because, as Janos stated, "... vampires are no longer born."

If this is true the Vorador must be the product of Janos' own
bloodlust curse. It maybe that he killed Vorador as a human and
his own sense of justice caused him to recreate him as a vampire.

Vorador was a human in Nosgoth's prehistory. Janos did turn him by the "conventional" method pertaining to the bloodcurse. When asked:
Q: How did Janos make Voradoor-like Kain made Raziel and his sons, or like
Mortanius made Kain? Was the way Kain made and the way Kain created his brethren the same? Howd Voradoor make his children?

Amy Hennig (Director of the Series) replied:


Originally replied by Amy H. compliments of warpsavant and Blincoln
A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.



Originally posted by lokkagrey
As for how Vorador could be brought back to life after BO1, it might be explained in SR1. In Raziel's first fight it is stated that the only way to completely destroy a vampire is by water, fire,
sunlight, or wounds that pierce through. Vorador was executed by giullotine, so if someone really wanted to ressurrect him they would just have to bring head and body back together. As for this soul it may have been like the vampiric souls in SR1.

Alright, then who "breathed" Vorador's soul back into his body? I certainly hope Vorador's resurrection is gone into a bit more in future installments.

lokkagrey
15th Sep 2002, 02:32
I took another look at Kain's statement in BO2. I was mistaken he said 'call her' not 'turned.' Sorry my mistake, he must have been referring to the whisper.

Anyone of course could have given Vorador back his life, after all some humans even ask for the Dark Gift.

Lady Kreliana
15th Sep 2002, 02:33
Originally posted by Preacher
On a side note, how does Vorador make vampires anyway? Does he turn humans into them or what? I hope it's not something like:

Vorador: "Uuggggghhhhh!"

Umah: "Push! Push!"

Vorador: "Aaaaaggghhhh!"

Umah: "I see a head!"

(2 hours later)

Vorador: Whew... just 1871 more to go...

Although it would explain why he's so weak. Heh heh...

LOL! That's funny.

Naja
15th Sep 2002, 07:57
Vorador knew about Raziel's actions after arriving in Nosgoth because of the birds. He probably heard of Raziel from Janos or whoever else, but he did not know everything - elsewise he would not have asked Raziel if he was the one who corrupted the pillars. Apparently, he only knew Raziel was supposed to be a savior, but he did not know who corrupted the pillars (which is suprising considering there are a fair amount of birds staring at the pillars - the entrance to the pillars, on top of the right column at the bottom of the steps).

In case you're wondering why I say the birds:


From SR2

Raziel follows the path beyond the Pillars. He takes note of the mysterious birds that he has been seeing since leaving the lake.

Raziel: "From the moment of my arrival I had the constant and palpable sensation of being watched. Someone, it seemed, was keenly interested in my presence here."

later on...


From SR2

Further into the swamp, Raziel kicks open a door, then turns around quickly enough to see who has been observing him. Vorador, who had been looking down from a balcony, promptly disappears when he realizes he has been noticed.

Raziel: "So, my lurking observer was exposed. The creature vanished when he realized he was discovered, but I caught a glimpse of him, and his features were distinct enough. This was the vampire Vorador, the monstrous assassin depicted in the Stronghold. Strange that a creature brazen enough to assault the Circle single-handedly would avoid confronting me. Very well then, if Vorador would not come to me, I would go to him. But first I needed to find some means of reaching that terrace."



BTW, that was funny, Preacher.

Preacher
15th Sep 2002, 13:37
Thanks! :p

HolyMoses
3rd Nov 2003, 18:57
This post is probably over looked, and isn't given the full credit that it's due. I must admit, when I first read this post, I dismissed it. But apon further examination, you can't help but consider it.

Vorador, father of Vampires, the most ancient "Un Born" vampire. It's safe to say that aside from Kain's brood, all Vampires came from him. But could he be a trator?

Kain said it best, "What I make, I also have the right to distroy", and although Kain and Vorador are not to be truely compaired to one another, Vorador is not the type to sacrifice his life. In the opening sequences of BO2, Vorador is there in the background. A shadow figure whose visage resemble that of the ancient Vampire, he is always at Kain's side (probably for council), even before the first battle of the Sarafan Lord. Could it have been possible that Kain's lieutenents left in the night and Vorador had not known? Possible, but unlikely. I don't believe he would have left camp in the night to join with his enemies, so he was left to see the Kain's fall.

He saved him from total oblivion, and had Umah care for him. More than likely he saw The Florence Nightengale Syndrom, and then warned her. Kain was now Vorador's trumph card, to be played against the Sarafan, as long as Kain was alive and the resistance was there to see to it, they had not lost. Could he be a traitor?

I say, "Sure, but not in the sense of traitortism". Vampires did live in Meridian, and it is impossible to hide completely. Everynight you have to kill, and the lack of blood is a pretty obvious clue that there are vampires around. So it's not as if he could hide their presense. Instead, what he might have done, is send the weaker on impossible missions, knowing that it was a trap. This would give the Sarafan a feeling like they had accomplished something, instead of hunting the more older and ancient ones. If you were a sarafan, everynight people were killed, but you couldn't find any you'd go on a warpath. Vorador was probably keeping the beast at bay.

Lesser of Two Evil?
Reguardless of my opinion, Vorador sees Kain as a monster, and an evil one at that. He sees Kain's quest for power and sees him as a tyrant, who will let no one stand in his way, vampires included. Perhaps he wanted to stage TSL and Kain together, once he had the nexus stone. Which would give him a reason to inform TSL that Kain left the city when he went to the Seer. But it doesn't make sense, cause if Kain had lost to TSL, the device would have killed all.



Umah:

I see your point, and agree that something isn't quite right with Vorador. Although I don't think he's a traitor, I don't think he has any loyalty, save himself. He may look after, and care after his new children of the night, but he would sacrifice them before himself. He also knows Kain is the balance guardian, and if he has any faith in what Janos taught him, he will not stop Kain's quest for power. It is rightfully his.

Buz
5th Nov 2003, 10:57
It has been speculated in other threads that Vorador may be a traitor to TSL in BO2. And furthermore, that he, like so many other of the characters in this series has turned to demonic influences.
(Umah if you feel that this belongs in your thread feel free to merge it, I think this is far different than Vorador being a mere traitor)

Let's look at some facts from BO2:
1) We never know who sired the Cabal. It is never implicitly stated that Vorador did all or any of the work (in BO2 era anyhow)

2)All those points Umah Bloodomen made in This Thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4168)

3)Vorador is acknowledged as already having died once in BO2, implying his death in BO1

4)We never see Vorador during or after Kain's fight with TSL

5)And most importantly for my theory...Vorador gets tore up by the Soul Reaver bolt while Janos quickly recovers.

Now let me ask a question: Why would a vampire knowingly ally with someone they knew was the ancients' mortal enemy, knowing full well that death lay in store for them?
They wouldn't. I am led to believe that Vorador in BO2 is a Hylden assuming Vorador's form, possibly a demon in disguise.

From the points I made above, one can begin to see how this interloper rounded up the remenants of kain's post BO1 vampire army by assuming the form of the slain Vorador, another prominant vampiric leader. This would also explain his connection to the Hyldenesque Seer, the reason he cannot create more vampires or seems "weak," and the reason why he was hurt so by the Reaver, the weapon (somewhat alterd, yet) designed to destroy the Hylden. Janos saying that Vorador needs tending to can be his way of saying, "I can see through you now, first I kill this one and then I go help Kain." Vorador could even be an incarnation of Hash/the Elder simply playing a part to lead Kain and Janos to their doom, but as of right now I'm very skeptical on wether or not he's a vampire.

I do realize that this is but a loose theory, and as always any support or criticism to my argument would be more than appreciated.

Vae Victus
5th Nov 2003, 22:54
You could be right because, when Kain barely escaped his second incounter with The Sarafan lord and was transported back to Santuary with Umah. Kain asked (in a sarcastic way) Why Vorador did not mention that the Sarafan lord had the Soul Reaver. This is the strongest weapon in all nosgoth so I doubt that the real Vorador would forget such a big thing.

HolyMoses
6th Nov 2003, 19:00
I don't think I'll ever look at Vorador the same way again.

Mrxknown
10th Nov 2003, 04:31
Originally posted by TG_Syd
Correct me if I'm wrong but if Vorador is alive in BO2 he could have been alive during SR1...Unless he dies during BO3

Vorador isn't alive in SR because Raziel in SR2 mentioned he heard tales of Vorador and that was his first encounter with him.

Not to mention BO, SR, and SR2 were moments in time unaffected by what occured at the end of SR2 since it didn't happen yet. Kain changed that and with that paradox time shifted.

Which could have increased the weakness between the two realms of the Material and Demon worlds. If true, then when Kain had the Pillars corrupted and decay that furthered the weakness and allowed TSL to come through and for Vorador to be revived.

Although it's true we don't know by what properties the ring's power or reach of Vorador goes.

Either way I will find out this TUESDAY!!! :D

...or wednesday :(