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Lytha
16th Aug 2002, 20:27
Is there a way to make a trap, i.e. a destroytrap, frobable for a frog; upon the frob, the trap will be set off and do its job?

I am asking because I am searching for ways to reduce the object count now. And the buttons for my various destroytraps in my conversations add up: I have a lot of conversations going on, and there is always some destroytrap involved; and if it's only to delete the conversation after it's done.


I have tried to add a TrigWorldFrob on the DestroyTrap - this causes the Trap to send an ON signal to everything it is linked to with a CD (quite stupid, really).

I have tried to make the Frog himself to a Button, both with TrigWorldFrob and StdButton, but he refuses to frob himself.

I guess... I could make the Conversation Marker to the button for the DestroyTrap (TrigWorldFocus; CD: Marker, DestroyTrap)

But... that solves only the final Destroy of the Conversation, and I have another couple of destroytraps running around and destroying stuff.


Addendum: The frog will frob himself and work nicely as an emitter for the ON signal if you use the TrigInvFrob Script instead of the TrigWorldFrob (Frobinfo, of course: "none; script; none")

Well. *frowns* is this what I was looking for? Might work for the destroy-conversation&entire blueroom stuff, again.

amievil?
16th Aug 2002, 21:16
just how many objects do you have and how close to the limit? cut out things like excessive beer bottles and crates and such...will help a little.

as far as dealing with all the scripts i have no idea.

i know that you can make the first step of the conversation to destroy the conversation, but i dont do it that way. i also use all those destroy traps.


you can also edit the object max limit i think.....but cant remember how i think it may be editing the dark.cfg file but dont go messing with it without help first.

Lytha
16th Aug 2002, 22:41
I am still (luckly) only at 50% of the object max (that is, if I am not mistaken and the object max is 2048.) But well, I have not even placed the bottles yet, or the AI patrol paths, or even most of the AI.

I think I will make the conversation markers to the buttons for the DestroyTraps that clean up the entire blueroom, but there are some more DestroyTraps around.

Well... I'm looking into simplifying this now. :)


And while I am at it, I make a detailed log of the effects in html - I guess the effects-detail-work will keep me busy for a while. :)


Still... I wonder if there is a different way to activate the trap with direct frob. :(

Because, well, using the ConversationMarker and the Froggie as Triggers has certain limits.

Telliamed_
17th Aug 2002, 06:30
Use VK's TrapSMTrans. It uses a ScriptParams link so it won't interfere with the normal operation of the trap. Link the trap to itself and put "FrobWorldEnd" in the link data.

You don't necessarily have to destroy conversations when they're done. Just add a step to the conversation (usually as the first thing) to remove the link to the conv. trap.

And finally, look for redundant sequences of events. That is, something that begins with a TurnOn message, then after a lot of convolutions just ends with another TurnOn message. I was looking at MindMaster and saw Komag was actually using emitter traps to kill some AI that had TrigSlain on them, triggering a QVarTrap.... :eek: (The Freudian in me finds this troubling.)

Lytha
17th Aug 2002, 07:09
Hi telliamed!

I was hoping that either you or VK find these two threads of me. Thank you! :)


TrapSMTrans, yes?

(TheStuff = a horde of stuff that the DestroyTrap is supposed to kill)


<b>TheDestroyTrap:
Scripts: "TrapDestroy; TrapSMTrans"
Links:
CD: TheDestroyTrap; FrobWorldEnd
CD: TheStuff</b>

... this looks seriously wrong, I doubt that the first CD link is what you meant.

aaah....


<b>Links:
ScriptParams; TheDestroyTrap; FrobWorldEnd
CD: TheStuff</b>

or

<b>Links:
ScriptParams: TheDestroyTrap; FrobWorldEnd
CD: TheStuff; TheDestroyTrap(?)</b>



Concerning the redundancies... Yes, I am already on my mission to kill them. I'm working on the "effects 25%" at the moment, making them from the very basics to more or less complete. :)

Event #2 can be simplified most probably so much that the entire conversation is not needed anymore.

Event #3, however. I need busy frogs here (I know that one of VK's scripts could be used to an inverted "giver", but I feel better when a frog does this event in his conversation. Frogs are so much more emotionally trustworthy than a clump of traps firing at each other...

And Event #4 will be fun and needs no frog. :)


I will come back later today and ask if a button can permanentely frob a switch to "ON" (this is the only thing that my #2 frog does which I think it difficult to implement with normal traps) Maybe all I need to do is make the first button from StdButton to StdLever (though, I was thinking of TrigWorldFrob for it at the moment to start the frog... making it a lever might be sweet (ON = stuff is teleported in, OFF = the stuff disappears maybe again... err, that's actually quite stupid.)

Telliamed_
17th Aug 2002, 12:22
StdButton sends only TurnOn. And sending TurnOn to StdLever is fairly harmless. Fairly because I believe the relaying part of StdLever will relay the TurnOn.

You can prevent a lever from getting turned off (at least, from signals) by filtering off messages to it. (relay with TrapControlFlags = NoOff)

But if the lever is never meant to be turned off, it may as well be a button.


Finally, buttons, levers, relays, and many other things can be locked. In my glancing at Mind Master I didn't see many FnordLocks, and I believe Komag could have simplified things greatly with them. But like you, I believe he conceives of things better when he has a visual indication. Blast door + emitter versus fnord lock + relay trap.

I am somewhat of the later. But I make complete diagrams on paper ahead of time, and that's where I "see" everything happening.

Something not to do in Mind Master: type 'link_draw_on controldevice'.

Lytha
17th Aug 2002, 21:44
Yeah, well, the froggie from event #2 and his 8 items are gone now. I *hope* now that the button's signal to the lever will keep it in that position, even after the button is gone. Long enough for the player to fool around another bit, that is. Well, the next froggie of event #3 refused to pull the lever now, or it needs a double-kick or something.

But the conversation of event #3 is on the todo list for tomorrow and following days, that thing will be complex and annoying. heh.

At least, my emittertrap there is already working again for some voodoo reason. Alright.


gaaaah... I just made all the objectives. Manually. Because I am too dumb to get TOW working. Half of them don't work yet (want me to steal my template item instead of the right stuff), but at least the objectives are there now... that was almost as bad as the roombrushing. *collapses*

amievil?
18th Aug 2002, 00:00
room brushing bad?? how did you brush the rooms, all at once after you built them?


if you did it that way, know that it is a very painful process. i tried it like that and got screwed up so now i do the room brushes as i build the rooms....


as for the tow....well now that you did it the hard way(like i did on my first one) you will love the tow when you use it :D it really does make things easier except maybe complex objectives which can be confusing to create. things like bringing ai to certain location in tow could be confusing i guess. but hey you got objectives, does that mean your pretty close to the end of the beginning? :D man im so not into trap triggers and scripts haha one thing i need help with soon will be my vault....imagine an electrically guarded room....i need to figure out how to make garret only shocked instead of dead on touch.
good job lytha just keep hard at it and i think we'll all be pleased with your work!

Lytha
18th Aug 2002, 00:40
Hi amievil :)

I'm still far from finishing the thing. The only thing was that quests are involved into the Event No.2 (which I worked on today, byebye froggie) and in the next, the dreaded and evil Event No.3. I know already what needs to be done, I just have to set it up now and fix and wipe up.

And well, while I was already setting up QuestVarTraps, I thought I'd go for the "read your diary"-objective, and then I thought I'd go for the next, and then I thought "heck, why not make the loot objectives now", etc. Half of the objectives still reference to that template object in froggie's room. So they are certainly not yet set up.

And yes - roombrushing is EVIL. I made them all in one go, right away with the automap, and I was nuts after that session. I have not only that building of that I showed the screenshots, but also an outdoors area - I guess that explains it. Loud music in the headphone helped a lot. And I've still the EAX waiting... *cries*


I have a suggestion for your evil trap - first heal him so that he doesn't die of the damage dealt (unless that's what you want), (S&R "Restore Stim", intensity to some wooping 25 or so), then take the "healer barrier" away and let him touch your damager-object. Use S&R: "Slash Stim" & intensity as much as you want it to deal damages ("1" would deal 1 damage, "2" 2 damage, etc) on the thing. Trust me, I know what I'm saying - I use exactly this routine, and I am not evil enough to risk that the clumsy player who's down to < SlayStimIntensity dies on impact with the "Slash stim" thing. ;)

I don't know (and frankly, I don't care) what this does with the "damages/healing taken" stats, and I can already imagine the "this is not playable in [insert some wicked playing mode that allows no damages taken]"-nonsense, but I can imagine a lot of nasty things, so it's better to focus on the "make sure that the player doesn't break the bottle-neck"-imagination. ;)


So... after my successful kill of 8! objects and the conversion at Event No.2, I am looking forward to the next one. :)

xarax
18th Aug 2002, 16:16
You could do what Calendra's Cistern did. Find some (otherwise useless) objects and add scripts to them. use objects that are on the map that the player can never reach for frobbing (if u need a frobbable object).

In "The Varyx Obelisk" for ThiefGold, I had to use trees, plants, bottles, chairs, barrels, static lights, etc. for things like RelayTraps, ConversationTraps, QuestVarTraps, etc. The "frobbable" objects for conversations were always out of reach of the player, so it couldn't be frobbed by the player (only by the conversation frog).

Very annoying to run of out objects. :(