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amievil?
13th Aug 2002, 02:19
as you all know, im building a motel level. its huge and has many many guest rooms. im making alot of keys in this level, so my question is ....is it too frustrating to have many keys even though they will all be labled to which room they go? im not making a key for every room or anything but there are gonna be a lot of them....do you think its ok to have many keys if they are labled is the question......any feedback is appreciated.

amievil?

clayman
13th Aug 2002, 02:38
I for one despise "key fetish" missions, i.e. missions that a have bunch of keys. Errand Boy had that as its only black mark. They intrude on my immersiveness.

If I finish with more than a half-dozen of the damn things, I'm disappointed. Garrett is a master lockpick-ist extraordinaire, he don't need no damn keys ! :D

On the other hand, if I have to stand at a door more than three pick twirls, then the designer is just making fun of me, making me wait..... :)

No kidding, amievil?.....keep the keys to a minimum. Make it logical, but thiefly. :)

theBlackman
13th Aug 2002, 02:54
In a motel, even with electronic locks there would be one or two "MASTER" keys that will open every door.

If you need one or two extra secure areas then key those special, otherwise the maids key will open every door on a particular floor, and the managers master key will open every door in the hotel, or in this case MOTEL.

I'm with clayman.

Nightwalker
13th Aug 2002, 03:03
I agree with the other two. A master key for most of the rooms would solve the problem of having too many. Keep the individual keys for really important rooms. :)

Danventry
13th Aug 2002, 03:19
I think theBlackman has the right idea. It's a peeve of mine to have to scroll through 5 or 6 different keys just to get to the one I want. If you have a master key/ maids key, it would be very apropriate to the environment and to a thief's needs. But making 5 keys the same is another peeve. Don't have even 3 of the same key, or it ruins the feeling that you had to work to get the key or anything the key leads to, because it was too easy to get the key. Maybe sections/floors assigned to each maid, and one maid has it on her belt, one is under her bed, one is lost in the kitchen (dropped into the bread dough?, you know that's a new thing that no one's done before...), one has left it under a rug for a substitue maid while she's away ect ect. (I know that's a lot of ideas, but I stink at DromEding, so I can never get them out).

Huntress
13th Aug 2002, 04:38
Don't like a whole bunch of keys to manipulate though or to have to find an excessive amout of them...feel the same why about useless numbers of tumblers to have to open a door or chest. Especially when I'm in a dangerours situation and have to patiently wait for a door to open when I need to get in quick! I can see having to use two different picks but not three different switchings with numerous turns to get the darn thing open! LOL So do as you see fit...but don't overdo please ;) Ta and Good Hunting...errr door openings, etc. :D

RiCh
13th Aug 2002, 15:14
Amievil? You can ADD the following to a keys proprieties:

GAME--->DAMAGE MODEL--->SLAY RESULT---> DESTROY

This will make the key disappear when used to unlock the correct door. So this way you could use many keys in your FM without cluttering up the inventory…but that’s up to you to decide. I personally agree with the above comments, but at least this way gives you an option, if you do decide to have a many keys in your FM.

ChangelingJane
13th Aug 2002, 15:30
Originally posted by theBlackman
If you need one or two extra secure areas then key those special, otherwise the maids key will open every door on a particular floor, and the managers master key will open every door in the hotel, or in this case MOTEL.

You know, I doubt there are many motels in Thief's carless world :D

Zaccheus
13th Aug 2002, 16:40
I'll go against the tide here and say that if it makes sense for the mission and all keys are labled (say Room101 for first floor room 1 and Room201 for second floor room 1, etc) then having many keys would not bother me.

Danventry
13th Aug 2002, 17:11
I agree with the Z! (I made a rhyme, just in time!) If you must have a lot of keys, atleast label them so we don't have to try every key we have in our inventory.

amievil?
13th Aug 2002, 22:45
all good points. i thought of the master key, but this motel is kinda wierd becuase the guy that would have the master key to the whole place is...well lets just say you cant find him on normal and hard. a master key for each floor could work. but i dont really like it. dealing with the objectives, there are cetain guests that garrett knows is in the building that he wants to rob particuarly.

basically, i like rich's idea of making the key dissapear after use. could you all stand around 14 keys in your inventory, and after use they dissapear?


a secret is being let out now, there are four floors in the building. on normal and hard you cant go to the 4th floor. the 4th floor isnt meant for guests so no worry about keys there. the second and third floors house the guest rooms. im making it so that if an ai is away from the room, they should have thier key with them. its late night so not many are out and about. most will be in their rooms sleeping or doing whatever i come up with heheh....and the empty rooms will be unlocked. im gonna make a guest list that shows which rooms are empty and which are occupied, that is if you can steal the book. its really not gonna be like 100 keys for 100 rooms, i just want it to appear like it is. guests who are in thier rooms will have thier keys either in the room or on their belt, and obviously it goes to the room you are in so you dont need it. is that fair?
in case your wondering whats on the first floor, its stuff like dining halls and game rooms, bar, etc...

oh and Hell's Motel sounds better than Hell's hotel :D i got the name from a song and might put a piece of it in the vid briefing if i have one.

one more thing....if you guys are sitting there thinking "oh geez how am i supposed to know which room is which" dont worry, all the guest rooms are numbered i tried to make this level as realistic as i can with everything. the other rooms like the dining room are also labled. and just about every one of the ai are being tweaked to act as close to real as possible.

Lytha
14th Aug 2002, 01:36
As long as the keys disappear after use, it doesn't really matter how many of them you give, I think. :)

The problem of the key-collector missions is more that you've in the end a dozen keys (worst case: unlabeled; second-to worst case: they are labeled, but the labels are incoherent = sometimes, the "armory key" would open some other lock in some completely different spot of the mission), and so you have to switch through the entire set of keys whenever you encounter another locked door.

Btw... *missions in that not everything is locked are <b>yay</b>!* :D



If your keys disappear after being used, this effect of "trying out all the two dozen keys on the next lock" wouldn't happen, and so it doesn't matter how many keys there are.

ChangelingJane
14th Aug 2002, 01:45
Wouldn't you have to be careful then of AIs with keys re-locking said doors? If the key you originally used gets destroyed, then you're kinda screwed.

Peter_Smith
14th Aug 2002, 06:32
I agree with clayman. Too many keys is annoying. But I think there are some important game-play aspect to keys that must be considered.

Keys can be used to control the flow of the game when, for the sake of a sensible story, the designer wants you to visit places in some order. As an example, keys were used in The Seventh Crystal to make sure that the ending sequence with the conversation, the war museum, brady's key, and unlocking the door to the tomb was done that order. But if they are overdone, the player feels like he or she is being led by the nose.

Keys can also be used to make entry into a special area more difficult. Too many of those, however, and they cease to be special.

I think it is not appropriate to have many keys just for the purpose of opening many doors, especially interior doors. Simply scrolling though all the keys in inventory is tiresome, not to mention the need to find them all. I agree that a single skeleton key would be better.

Given a choice between a mission with tricky navigation through open passages with only a few doors and finding a lot of keys to many doors, I will take the few-door mission every time, all other things being equal.

Lock picks also serve a purpose in game play. They create a timing problem to avoid AI on patrol - a tense moment. They can be overused too. I get annoyed when a mission has, say, 30 doors and 30 chests and they must all be picked. Long lasting picks are another irritant.

There is nothing wrong with leaving a few doors unlocked. Suitable placement of AI and patrols can make unlocked doors interesting, too. In the end, I think that exploration and interactions with AI are important aspects of playing Thief, and messing with lots of keys or lockpicks is far less interesting.

Danventry
14th Aug 2002, 14:20
Frankly, if you do need to come down to leaving a few doors unlocked, excuses come in handy. For example:
"Note To All Gaurds:
To those of you who keep forgetting to lock the [insert room name], if you do it again, I will dock ALL of your salaries!" and then ofcourse, Lenny (Benny's cousin) forgot to lock the door.

SlyFoxx
14th Aug 2002, 17:30
A lot of keys is no big deal to me. If Garrett needs to find x number of keys so be it. Labled keys would be good if it's reasonable to think Garrett would know what he's grabbing. Making them disapear from inventory when no longer useful is a good idea.

It is kinda fun to empty the pockets at the end of a mission and pile up all the stuff you've collected. Say the front room of "The Manor" or whatever. I figure it's good to drop the keys 'cause you would not want to be caught with them later. Make big piles of apples and vegtables and whatever other stuff you've got in your pockets.:D

Huntress
14th Aug 2002, 20:02
solution...but then of course you would still have to go through your inventory to find the right one...in successive tries for each door, even if labled. Of course the number would decrease with each success but would at least reduce the number carried ultimately ;) And what is Garrett carrying lockpicks for if not to use them as well? This also reduces the number of keys to have...even if the guests have their keys...that's what lockpicks are for :D Consequently, a good balance between the two would be the goal to achieve here IMHO with the certaintly that "important" doors (important document/treasure) might then require a "key" to open (or as Peter suggested) A.I. patrols making it more of a challenge to gain entry?

It should be very interesting to see this FM amievel and look forward into checking out your guest list :) Ta and Good Hunting!