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Tidus of Zanarkand
12th Aug 2002, 02:25
Havin g reviewed all of the deleted materials from the game, thankst to Umah and blincoln, some new theories have come to me.

SPOILERS probably




After the battle in the chronoplast chamber, and having upgraded the soul reaver by absorbing Kain's soul, the course of Raziel future becomes very different.

He then returns to the cathedral and destroys every vampiric being on the planet. Assuming this does destroy him, the game ends here and so does the story of Nosgoth.

But assuming he doesn't die after killing Kain and Turel and the Priestess, then destroying all of the vampires on the planet. What would he do then


My guess is that the humans would be liberated and the pillars would be restored. Raziel would "rule" over them and enjoy his life.


this would be all well and good but hten there woould be no soul reaver 2 meaning that soul reaver 1 could not come to pass.

so here's what i second guess would happen

after destroying Kain and all of the vampires, the pillars still remain corrupted. In raziel's searches of Nosgoth he finds there to be no reason that they should be. BUt as Kain says in SOul reaver 2.'the pillars were created for us. referrign of course to the vampires. SO by destroying the vampires the pillars remain corrupt.

SO raziel returns to the chronoplast chamber and goes back in time. In stead of kain leading him every were, it is VOrador who takes a new role within Nosgoths history, following the wishes of Janos. THe evetns of Soul reaver 2 unfold and raziel's terrible destiny is still fulfilled.



But then this story isn't half as good or make half as much sense as the real story

i am guessign that this is one of the reasons why the developers had SR1 end wher eit did. IF the were to follow the alternate ending and still make this all possible then Kain could not die. THen they could include all elements of the game.


so what does everybody think

Umah Bloodomen
12th Aug 2002, 02:55
Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand
Havin g reviewed all of the deleted materials from the game, thankst to Umah and blincoln, some new theories have come to me.

SPOILERS probably




After the battle in the chronoplast chamber, and having upgraded the soul reaver by absorbing Kain's soul, the course of Raziel future becomes very different.

He then returns to the cathedral and destroys every vampiric being on the planet. Assuming this does destroy him, the game ends here and so does the story of Nosgoth.

Why would this destroy him? Raziel is no longer a vampire, he is a different entity entirely. I don't believe the sound from the Silenced Cathedral would have any affect on Raziel at all.


Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand
But assuming he doesn't die after killing Kain and Turel and the Priestess, then destroying all of the vampires on the planet. What would he do then

My guess is that the humans would be liberated and the pillars would be restored. Raziel would "rule" over them and enjoy his life.


this would be all well and good but hten there woould be no soul reaver 2 meaning that soul reaver 1 could not come to pass.

I beg to differ with you here, Tidus. Raziel isn't a "power hungry" individual and I doubt he would become the "ruler" of Nosgoth. It just isn't in his character. I do think that Soul Reaver 2 would happen because after defeating Kain and everyone else, Raziel would have more time to devote to seeking out his origins and the rest of what he must do to fufill his destiny. I think he would still end up meeting his Sarafan self and killing him. (Because it would lead to him becoming the Soul Reaver because Kain had to resurrect something). I think Raziel would also spend a bit more time with Janos and possibly even Vorador, and discover his true heritage and more about the ancients. Most of the events in SR2 happened before the events of SR1 and the events of both Blood Omens. He would have to encounter some similar events in order to reach the point of SR1.


Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand
so here's what i second guess would happen

after destroying Kain and all of the vampires, the pillars still remain corrupted. In raziel's searches of Nosgoth he finds there to be no reason that they should be. BUt as Kain says in SOul reaver 2.'the pillars were created for us. referrign of course to the vampires. SO by destroying the vampires the pillars remain corrupt.

I disagree with this. After Kain dies, the Balance would be restored. The Pillars would not be corrupted anymore, and would thus be allowed to choose new guardians all together. Kain was generalizing his statement because he views vampires as the superior race. The Pillars were created for the ancients (which later became vampires due to the curse) but only as a means to protect Nosgoth from the Hylden influence. (Refer to the battle between the ancients vs. Hylden).


Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand
SO raziel returns to the chronoplast chamber and goes back in time. In stead of kain leading him every were, it is VOrador who takes a new role within Nosgoths history, following the wishes of Janos. THe evetns of Soul reaver 2 unfold and raziel's terrible destiny is still fulfilled.

What era are you referring to when you say Raziel would go back in time? If it is pre BO1 but post SR2's end then I don't buy it. If Vorador was to take an active role in the life of Raziel, he would've done it. Vorador enacted his revenge on the circle (end of SR2) and then vanished into the Termogent Forest (becoming mainly a hermit during BO1). Also, if Vorador knew of the power of the Soul Reaver aka Raziel, he would've slaughtered the Circle members with it and not the Bone Reaver (as seen in the opening FMV to BO1).


Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand
But then this story isn't half as good or make half as much sense as the real story

i am guessign that this is one of the reasons why the developers had SR1 end wher eit did. IF the were to follow the alternate ending and still make this all possible then Kain could not die. THen they could include all elements of the game.


so what does everybody think


I think it would still be possible for Kain to die. CD would simply have that occur in BO2 (the continuation of Kain's story).

EDIT Had to adjust a couple of bold faced areas.

Tidus of Zanarkand
13th Aug 2002, 02:15
My guess is that the humans would be liberated and the pillars would be restored. Raziel would "rule" over them and enjoy his life.

By rule i meant that he would be there superior. I mean if you don't kill the first human you see then they all love you. I think because they are looking for this messiah to save them that they would worship Raziel and he would be their ruler regardless of his actions. Obviously if he didn't like it then he would just ignore them and hide, but they would still have him rule. Humans, in Nosgoth's future, seem to be looking for a release and a sign of hope, muchb like a society. THey are quick to be convinced that something is worthy and know little about anyhing in Nosgoth. I think that this blind faith would have them worshipping him.

And, let's not forget that Raziel still valued his humanity at the end of Soul Raver 1. He respected the sarafan cause he didn't believe anything Kain said. He may very well have choosen to rule over them, but unlike what he thought Kain was doing, he would try to help Humanity and bring about a time of prosperity. By ruling over them i meant in no way that he would br tyranical in his methods or power mad.

Umah Bloodomen
13th Aug 2002, 02:36
Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand


By rule i meant that he would be there superior. I mean if you don't kill the first human you see then they all love you. I think because they are looking for this messiah to save them that they would worship Raziel and he would be their ruler regardless of his actions. Obviously if he didn't like it then he would just ignore them and hide, but they would still have him rule. Humans, in Nosgoth's future, seem to be looking for a release and a sign of hope, muchb like a society. THey are quick to be convinced that something is worthy and know little about anyhing in Nosgoth. I think that this blind faith would have them worshipping him.

Yes I am quite aware of what the term "rule" means. (And what you meant). I beg to differ slightly with you here. First off, I don't go off killing the first human I see and no one loves me. :p. About the only people I view as looking for their messiah to save them are the vampire worshippers. It is unclear at this point what the remaining Sarafan order (or vampire hunters want) other than to rid the world of vampires in general, and becoming their own independent saviors of humanity. Why would the humans worship Raziel? Barely anyone knows of the ancient history between humans and the ancient race. All they know (from truth and legends) is that some select humans get to serve the Pillars of Nosgoth. I doubt that any human (other than the guardians) know the true reason for why this occurs. Again you were basing this thread on "what could've been had Raziel followed the material that was cut from the final version of SR". I didn't get the impression that the humans wanted release or relied on blind faith (with the exception of the small sect of vampire worshippers lead by The Priestess).


Originally posted by Tidus of Zanarkand
And, let's not forget that Raziel still valued his humanity at the end of Soul Raver 1. He respected the sarafan cause he didn't believe anything Kain said. He may very well have choosen to rule over them, but unlike what he thought Kain was doing, he would try to help Humanity and bring about a time of prosperity. By ruling over them i meant in no way that he would br tyranical in his methods or power mad.

Raziel doubted his humanity. He was disgusted by it after entering the Tomb of the Sarafan.

Ardeth Silvereni's summary of Raziel's sentiments of his past "humanity" -



Raziel defeated Zephon, but to reach Rahab's territory, he had to pass through the tomb of the Sarafan. As he approached the huge structure, he commented on the men it had been built for. Retaining his old vampiric viewpoints, Raziel referred to the Sarafan as murderers.
Raziel was not prepared for the revelation awaiting him within. The inner chamber of the tomb was empty, but carved above the vacant caskets were the names of Raziel's brethren - and his own.


Raziel was forced to re-evaluate himself and his opinion of the Sarafan crusade. If it were possible, his anger towards Kain grew as a result of this discovery. Raziel was disgusted by Kain's intentional blasphemy in raising elite vampire hunters to serve him.
By the time Raziel followed Kain through the Chronoplast portal, he was regarding the Sarafan with some reverance. The memorials he discovered within the Sarafan Stronghold helped to strengthen Raziel's newly-formed ideas about the order.

This made the murder of Janos Audron all the more shocking to him when it happened. As he witnessed the act, Raziel instantly reverted to his old hatred of the Sarafan, but it was intensfied by the pain of his loss and guilt.
When Raziel hunted and killed his Sarafan brethren, he revelled in the knowledge of what Kain would do to them. Raziel was putting them in the tomb to await Kain's arrival centuries later. As Raziel killed his Sarafan self, he renounced his human life and history forever.

The tomb of the Sarafan was a notable location in Soul Reaver for two other reasons as well. It was where Raziel faced the Tomb Guardian, Morlock, and gained the force projectile ability. Also, there were seven names inscribed in the tomb, not six. Malek also had a place, although there was no casket for him. This suggests the tomb was contructed prior to his failing of the Circle


Raziel Never respected the Sarafan cause. He loathed the Sarafan for being vampire hunters and the reason for why the vampire race was dwindling. True, he had his doubts in Kain. He listened to the Elder more than anyone (and even began to doubt him as well).

Tidus of Zanarkand
13th Aug 2002, 03:15
Yes he does hate the fact that he was sarafan, but what leads me to believe that he would come to like hmnas is that he still revere's humanity as a personal quality . He says it at the beginning of SR2. if i recall it is during one of the early encounter with Kain. e asl remarks this at the end of SR1




The Sarafan were saviors, defending Nosgoth from the corruption that we represent.

he does not speak again after this, until he meets moebius in Soul Reaver 2.

He saying this contradicts his earlier comments about sarafan adn how they were murders, but it does show raziel's distaste for his vampiric life and a certain reverance to the apparent nobility of the sarafa. Of course, he comes to know the truth, but at the "end" or soul reaver 1 he, i think wants to be human.



About the only people I view as looking for their messiah to save them are the vampire worshippers. It is unclear at this point what the remaining Sarafan order (or vampire hunters want) other than to rid the world of vampires in general, and becoming their own independent saviors of humanity. Why would the humans worship Raziel? Barely anyone knows of the ancient history between humans and the ancient race. All they know (from truth and legends) is that some select humans get to serve the Pillars of Nosgoth. I doubt that any human (other than the guardians) know the true reason for why this occurs. Again you were basing this thread on "what could've been had Raziel followed the material that was cut from the final version of SR". I didn't get the impression that the humans wanted release or relied on blind faith (with the exception of the small sect of vampire worshippers lead by The Priestess).


The humans are dumb. THis point is raised by legacy of kain games constantly. Humanity in nosgoth, and arguably our society, is greatly flawed in ,many aspects.

Janos defends the actions of the sarafan, or atl east justifies them by saying that they are afraid of what they do not understand. Which means that they don't really know squat about anything in Nosgoth and as such commit these acts of violence agains thte vampire plague.

In the future of Nosgoth the story highlights how humanity has faired over the centuries. THe vampire worshippers are mearly evil humans that jump on to the vampire band wagon in order to save their own caracasses. if they do see vampires as messiah's than i quesiton who they believe the vampires are saving them from .

the reason i think that the remaining humans and vampire hunters see raziel as their messiah is that he actually saves them from the vampire plague. Know this can be little acts like killing the vampires or, if we extrapollate the sytory to included the concept story, raziel saves them from all vampires. Now nosgoths humans are stupid. THat would leach on to raziel and perceive him as a saviour, becasue to the foolish and uneduicted, he is a saviour. He rids nosgoth of vampires.


Now this is a very cynical view. Btut he text does have astrong cynical viewpoint on humanity and its value. I6t tires to show that those who appear human can be the real monsters. as raziel says in soul reaver 2


For I had seen the human face of the vampires, and now I beheld the monsterousness of these men.

the story still clings to a notion that humanity has some nobility in it.

I still thinkt hat hte humans would worship raz. so try conivnce me otherwise

Power reaver
13th Aug 2002, 13:23
I ll have to agree with both of you on this 1 .

Most of the Humans in Nosgoth are dumb , if Raz were to rid the world of Kains parsictic empire , then I would imagine the majority of the humans would become Soul Reaver worshippers . But then there is always 1 different person in each family , the 1 who disagrees with the majority , the 1s that crave power and dislike other type of people . Iam sure even if the humans were to worship Raziel , it wouldent be for long . The "evil" 1s would one day start a riot , a rebellion and probably overthrow Raziel , thats the way its always been with Humans , we do get board and like to do wild things . Earth has Human terrorists , why should Nosgoth be different , and with a History of Humans like Sarafan Raziel , all the Sarafan , and particularly Moebius , I wont be surprised if Moebius jr showed up .

Besides even Vampires had the distinction of "Loyal" and "Traitor" . Rahab for eg was quite Loyal to Kain and Dumah was an all round Traitor , and both of them were once Human .

BTW Tidus , in the cut version of SR , its in the battle in Kains Retreat where Kains soul gets absorbed in the Reaver and that is the Final Battle . After The battle in the Chronoplast Raz only manages to get a part of Kains soul and this little peice gives him the all too powerful "Shift At Will" gift .