PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts on BO2



darien_specter
9th Aug 2002, 23:06
Well, as I said, I've finished playing Blood Omen 2, and now I'm going to put forth my thoughts on it. I expect much of this has already been said, but I'm going to say it anyway. Perhaps there'll be some new ideas within...

So first, the pros: as a game, I enjoyed it very much. The combat was great, the puzzles creative, including in the boss fights. That there were major enemies with creative ways of killing them was good. (Some of them got a little repetitive - I mean, if I fry enormous nasty Zephon thrice he dies, but I fry Faustus like what, five times? and he still comes back for more... sheesh.) If I may be a male chauvinist for a minute: Umah? Hot. Seer? Hot. Scantily clad chick enemies? Also hot. Finally the men have someone to "drool" over... Now, back to serious. Many of the later environments were fantastic. Beyond being gorgeous, they just had this fantastic atmosphere about them that made it wonderful to be experiencing them. I believe my favorite will remain the Eternal Prison; the place was just creepy and cool all at the same time. Clocks everywhere... scythe-wielding statues... scythe wielding enemies... and a huge statue of Moebius thrown in just to make you think a little harder. Loved it. The only thing that really bothered me gameplay-wise was the chapter format, which, after SR and SR2, now does not stack up to that wonderful continuous-world effect. That, and the opening/closing animations; not up to our usual GlyphX standard of amazing... But beyond that, a great game. (I never really noticed the synching of lips and speech to be too terribly bad. Maybe the PC version cleaned it up a bit... but on PC, that sort of thing is sometimes a crap shoot. Like in the SR2 intro: sometimes Moebius will be just fine at the very beginning, and sometimes he'll be an entire sentence behind...)

I also really loved the little homages to Blood Omen, particularly the occasional appearance of the poor saps chained to a wall, begging, "Please, help me, kind sir!" and that Kain laughed a BO-style laugh when he killed them... those were about the only times he really reacted to battle at all... but they were great!

But now I turn to the problems, and they are all related to BO2's place within the overarching history of Nosgoth.

My first is something of a minor quibble; probably no one else mentioned this one. That is the appearance of already-established characters, namely Vorador and Janos Audron. Yes, this is minor; but as I've said before, my major is theatre, and part of what draws me to this series is its theatricality, and part of that is the aesthetics of it. With Vorador, it was his big gold bug-eyes that got me; in preceding installments, his eyes were no different from anyone else's, excepting that they were yellow. I doubt that in 200 years his eyes bugged out... Janos bugged me more, and I can't really say why. His eyes are one thing I noticed; suddenly they're red, and seemingly pupil-less. Again, when we see him in SR2, he simple has normal yellow eyes... But with Janos it was more than that, and I can't put my finger on it. In SR2, there was more an air of ancient nobility about him, both in his appearance and in his character; that seemed to be missing in BO2. There was a lot of inexplicable arm-flailing; again, it's hard to tell. He seemed smaller; visually rendered, he seemed to lack the smoothness of definition he was given in SR2. Again, it's hard to pin down the difference; but Janos became one of my favorite characters after SR2, and it just kind of bugged me to see him look like that.

More important, the plot problems... the big one, that everyone's mentioned, but which just frosts me so much I have to say it again: VORADOR IS DEAD!!! Deprived of his head by Moebius; what's more, Raziel sees the statue of Moebius holding his head some 100 years after the fact. Yet in the prologue, which is supposed to happen 200 APC (After the Pillars' Collapse), we see Vorador alive, well, and inexplicably helping Kain to conquer Nosgoth, an ambition Vorador never displayed previously. And that throws everything into question, because without Vorador there's no vampire army, and thus no BO2... Less distressing is the presence of the living Janos Audron. Now, I realize that it has been proposed that BO2 occurs as part of the massive change of history in SR2. (I'll deal with that question in a moment.) This is still problematic, however, because Janos can only live if his heart was restored to him; but if BO2 isn't a change, then Janos can't have been there... The worst part of these things is that no explanation whatever was given for the fact that a person history records as dead is being used as a living battery, or that someone Kain saw executed is still alive and creating vampires, and Kain has no pithy comment to say about this. They could have at least explained it... And on a greater scale, the whole thing just bugged me. I had always had this vision of Kain, after a long time of lonely hunting, discovering the means of raising his six lieutenants, and thus finally having the means to conquer Nosgoth. SR just had this atmosphere of loneliness about it; SR2 bore this up in its future era, because, despite the presence of the demon hunters, there still seemed to be this air of depression and ruin about the place. This was an awful time in Nosgoth. It sucked to be here. This BO2 era seems like a picnic by comparison. I always thought the land was degenerating... In any case, unless the entire rest of the Cabal was killed on the way into the Hylden city, and Vorador was killed by that shot from the Soul Reaver, there are way too many vampires left alive at this point for this to jive with the history of Soul Reaver. Why raise six lieutenants if you've already got Vorador and the rest of the Resistance? (My bigger question is: how much, if any input did Amy Henning have in protecting the storyline? It can't have been much, unless she's got some big revelations planned for SR3...)

That having been said, I want to comment on the whole idea that BO2 is a part of the changed history created at the end of SR2. Again, I haven't really read any of those posts yet, so some of these points may have already been addressed. This is an idea with merit. It is logical, from the standpoint of that we know massive shifts occurred from all the quaking and groaning, and Kain freaking out. I even thought of a possible scenario:

- Raziel restores Janos, and from there goes on his merry way.
- Janos arrives to save Vorador from Moebius' mob, thus sparing his life. Kain kills Moebius anyway.
- Shortly thereafter the Hylden Lord (which is how I will refer to the Sarafan Lord, in an attempt to differentiate between these deceived neo-Sarafan and the original Sarafan order, which was at least honestly motivated, if somewhat misguided) captures Janos, and turns him into a giant Duracell.
- Meanwhile Vorador, fed up with humanity at last, joins Kain as his mentor, and begins raising a new race of vampires to serve as an army for Kain.

But there are still problems with this scenario. For one, Kain is throughout BO2 never particularly worried or afraid to go up against the Sarafan Lord; and when it expands into shutting down the beginning of a Hylden occupation, he remains unfazed, going into the heart of their gateway into Nosgoth. Now if this is the new history that Kain suddenly remembers, then why would he freak out upon remembering it? He was victorious; his actions shut down some potentially dangerous machinery. Even with Janos alive and powering the Device, Kain was able to kill the Mass and set Janos free. Why should this be a frightening memory, deserving of a frantic warning to leave Janos dead? Furthermore, Janos tells Kain that it was the fall of the Pillars that allowed the Hylden Lord to break through into Nosgoth. This means that, even in the unaltered timeline, he shows up in Nosgoth and presumably starts wreaking havoc. And he thus must be contested in any case. It therefore seems that this must have occurred, in some fashion if not this, in all the timelines we have thus far experienced; BO2, then, is not necessarily the product of an altered history. It is entirely conceivable, from Kain's warning, that the actual alteration is far worse, and we have yet to experience it.

Lastly, some final thoughts: Beyond that being a rather nasty end for poor, long-suffering Janos Audron (we all talk about Raziel as a tragic hero; what about Janos? Can't this guy get a break?), it did seem to be that this occurred after Kain dropped the Nexus Stone, closing the gateway; it also seemed that Kain was awfully slow in picking up the Soul Reaver when Janos was begging for his help. Would Kain go so far in his youthful arrogance as to allow Janos Audron to perish? What are we to make of the huge statue of Moebius in the Eternal Prison? That was a neat touch. Perhaps he had a role in building it... And just who is this mysterious Seer? Who, Janos-like, teleports Kain to a new place while staying behind... though we never see her die. Will we see her again? (I hope so... ;))

So those are my thoughts. Despite the plot flaws, I quite enjoyed it, and I'm sure I will replay it time and time again, while I await the next installment...

Umah Bloodomen
10th Aug 2002, 00:09
Originally posted by darien_specter
Well, as I said, I've finished playing Blood Omen 2, and now I'm going to put forth my thoughts on it. I expect much of this has already been said, but I'm going to say it anyway. Perhaps there'll be some new ideas within...

First off, it is about time you finally got this and completed it. :p


Originally posted by darien_specter
So first, the pros: as a game, I enjoyed it very much. The combat was great, the puzzles creative, including in the boss fights. That there were major enemies with creative ways of killing them was good. (Some of them got a little repetitive - I mean, if I fry enormous nasty Zephon thrice he dies, but I fry Faustus like what, five times? and he still comes back for more... sheesh.) If I may be a male chauvinist for a minute: Umah? Hot. Seer? Hot. Scantily clad chick enemies? Also hot. Finally the men have someone to "drool" over... Now, back to serious. Many of the later environments were fantastic. Beyond being gorgeous, they just had this fantastic atmosphere about them that made it wonderful to be experiencing them. I believe my favorite will remain the Eternal Prison; the place was just creepy and cool all at the same time. Clocks everywhere... scythe-wielding statues... scythe wielding enemies... and a huge statue of Moebius thrown in just to make you think a little harder. Loved it. The only thing that really bothered me gameplay-wise was the chapter format, which, after SR and SR2, now does not stack up to that wonderful continuous-world effect. That, and the opening/closing animations; not up to our usual GlyphX standard of amazing... But beyond that, a great game. (I never really noticed the synching of lips and speech to be too terribly bad. Maybe the PC version cleaned it up a bit... but on PC, that sort of thing is sometimes a crap shoot. Like in the SR2 intro: sometimes Moebius will be just fine at the very beginning, and sometimes he'll be an entire sentence behind...)

I will agree with you that BO2 was worth the wait and the money. As for the bosses, I really enjoyed the "change" of defeating them. (Within stages as opposed to one constant smack down). I get the impression that CD/Eidos decided to "experiment" a bit with different aspects of the game, and I commend them for doing so. It made my gaming experience a bit more enjoyable. I was pleased with the introduction of a female vampire figure (Umah) although I remain a bit disappointed because she wasn't utilized to her full potential. Personally I could have done without the 3 hours of what I often call "Tutorial BS" at the beginning of the game. I would have much rather have had her give a few more subtle pointers (somewhat like what the Seer does and Ariel has done in the past) or perhaps instructions similar to what was seen in the Soul Reaver series. I don't really think we should've played as Umah necessarily, but perhaps had her presence more directly involved in the storyline. (Besides the espionage and damsel in distress routine). In my opinion, Umah trained, babbled, was captured, babbled and died a bit too quickly. I think a slight bit more elaboration on her going off to find the Nexus stone (perhaps encountering Sebastian or something) would've molded her into a more pivotal character. I really did enjoy her (enough to use her name as my identity). I suppose that a little presence still went a long way. ;)
As for the Seer, her presence was definately appreciated. She was enveloped with such an aura of the unknown, in which nothing can compete. I eagerly await her return in future installments. The Eternal Prison was by far the most elaborate level of the game. The mystery and atmosphere of it, hooked me from the minute I arrived there. I found myself chuckling a bit when I saw the statue of good old Moebius. Excellent little aspect that sure got my attention. Of all the bosses, I believe Magnus was my favorite. I really appreciate his tale of being Kain's "glory boy" and wanting to do Kain proud. It implied of a bond that many perceived Kain was never able to have with anyone. (Either in a friendship sort of way, or a father/son type relationship...details are vague but this was my speculation).
I felt that the chapter format was a bit bizzare at first, but it didn't really distract me from the gameplay. I pretty much went with it and found it more fitting as through each level I progressed. I missed the Glyphx-feel of the FMV's myself, but enjoyed them nonetheless. I love the little bits and pieces we saw of Kain's past as he struggled to remember it. And I love the determination in Kain's eyes as he strolls away from the crumbling Hylden city as he implies of his revenge on the Sarafan (with the brethren we all know and love). As for the lip synching, the PS2 version is horrible compared to what you experienced. LOL. It is funny though and I wasn't too terribly upset by it. If you watched Godzilla before, you would understand the humor in it.


Originally posted by darien_specter
I also really loved the little homages to Blood Omen, particularly the occasional appearance of the poor saps chained to a wall, begging, "Please, help me, kind sir!" and that Kain laughed a BO-style laugh when he killed them... those were about the only times he really reacted to battle at all... but they were great!

I agree with this totally. Although I still find myself missing the infamous "Vae Victus".


Originally posted by darien_specter
But now I turn to the problems, and they are all related to BO2's place within the overarching history of Nosgoth.

My first is something of a minor quibble; probably no one else mentioned this one. That is the appearance of already-established characters, namely Vorador and Janos Audron. Yes, this is minor; but as I've said before, my major is theatre, and part of what draws me to this series is its theatricality, and part of that is the aesthetics of it. With Vorador, it was his big gold bug-eyes that got me; in preceding installments, his eyes were no different from anyone else's, excepting that they were yellow. I doubt that in 200 years his eyes bugged out... Janos bugged me more, and I can't really say why. His eyes are one thing I noticed; suddenly they're red, and seemingly pupil-less. Again, when we see him in SR2, he simple has normal yellow eyes... But with Janos it was more than that, and I can't put my finger on it. In SR2, there was more an air of ancient nobility about him, both in his appearance and in his character; that seemed to be missing in BO2. There was a lot of inexplicable arm-flailing; again, it's hard to tell. He seemed smaller; visually rendered, he seemed to lack the smoothness of definition he was given in SR2. Again, it's hard to pin down the difference; but Janos became one of my favorite characters after SR2, and it just kind of bugged me to see him look like that.

I don't really know how to address the "Vorador's eyes" issue. I noticed they too were different, but I felt that it was trivial. Obviously with each games, some new designers/designs are incorporated and things are bound to change. The basic ideas usually remain the same, but its another interpretation. The Janos issue is a bit easier to touch on. I feel that his eyes (although I am still weighing heavily on my new design/designer interpretation theory) can be linked to his time as "The Beast". He's been through a lot, and it shows. I wouldn't expect him to look perfect after powering a device with his lifeforce for however long he was in there. :p. I agree with the nobility aspect in SR2 with Janos. I feel that during that time, he was still noble (as the last of the ancient aspect of the vampire race). He was what the murals described his people as. When the vampire race fell, he simply had to start his rise to nobility back at square one. The ancients were no longer revered - humans were on the rise with their own noble lines and, as we've seen, eager to wipe the vampires out. (They were the superior species and a threat to the human ego).


Originally posted by darien_specter
More important, the plot problems... the big one, that everyone's mentioned, but which just frosts me so much I have to say it again: VORADOR IS DEAD!!! Deprived of his head by Moebius; what's more, Raziel sees the statue of Moebius holding his head some 100 years after the fact. Yet in the prologue, which is supposed to happen 200 APC (After the Pillars' Collapse), we see Vorador alive, well, and inexplicably helping Kain to conquer Nosgoth, an ambition Vorador never displayed previously. And that throws everything into question, because without Vorador there's no vampire army, and thus no BO2... Less distressing is the presence of the living Janos Audron. Now, I realize that it has been proposed that BO2 occurs as part of the massive change of history in SR2. (I'll deal with that question in a moment.) This is still problematic, however, because Janos can only live if his heart was restored to him; but if BO2 isn't a change, then Janos can't have been there... The worst part of these things is that no explanation whatever was given for the fact that a person history records as dead is being used as a living battery, or that someone Kain saw executed is still alive and creating vampires, and Kain has no pithy comment to say about this. They could have at least explained it... And on a greater scale, the whole thing just bugged me. I had always had this vision of Kain, after a long time of lonely hunting, discovering the means of raising his six lieutenants, and thus finally having the means to conquer Nosgoth. SR just had this atmosphere of loneliness about it; SR2 bore this up in its future era, because, despite the presence of the demon hunters, there still seemed to be this air of depression and ruin about the place. This was an awful time in Nosgoth. It sucked to be here. This BO2 era seems like a picnic by comparison. I always thought the land was degenerating... In any case, unless the entire rest of the Cabal was killed on the way into the Hylden city, and Vorador was killed by that shot from the Soul Reaver, there are way too many vampires left alive at this point for this to jive with the history of Soul Reaver. Why raise six lieutenants if you've already got Vorador and the rest of the Resistance? (My bigger question is: how much, if any input did Amy Henning have in protecting the storyline? It can't have been much, unless she's got some big revelations planned for SR3...)

Indeed the "Vorador hole" is a big issue. His appearance in BO2 leads me to believe that he (and Janos for that matter) were brought back immediately following the events of SR2. I look forward to seeing this information revealed in SR3. Vorador's teaming up with Kain suggests that it was a common interest (at the time) to ensure the vampire race was preserved. We all know Kain had his ulterior motives (too seek out the puppetmasters and get his revenge for being thrust into the life he now leads). I would think that Kain was playing off of Vorador to get ahead. This may have something to do with why they don't really care much for each other later on. (Vorador had a vision that Vampires should live as the ancients intended, Kain believed they should dominate...a clear conflict of interests). I also didn't understand why Kain didn't question Vorador's return more indepthly (especially being concerend with puppeteering by unknown parties) I also didn't understand Janos passing off his return as nothing either. (You would think it would've been gone into just a tad bit more and left a better tasting "hole" in my mouth).
As for Amy, I bet she's got a lot planned to make our mouth's drop for SR3 (and hopefully BO3). I don't think she would leave the series in such disaray (sp?) intentionally.


Originally posted by darien_specter
That having been said, I want to comment on the whole idea that BO2 is a part of the changed history created at the end of SR2. Again, I haven't really read any of those posts yet, so some of these points may have already been addressed. This is an idea with merit. It is logical, from the standpoint of that we know massive shifts occurred from all the quaking and groaning, and Kain freaking out. I even thought of a possible scenario:

- Raziel restores Janos, and from there goes on his merry way.
- Janos arrives to save Vorador from Moebius' mob, thus sparing his life. Kain kills Moebius anyway.
- Shortly thereafter the Hylden Lord (which is how I will refer to the Sarafan Lord, in an attempt to differentiate between these deceived neo-Sarafan and the original Sarafan order, which was at least honestly motivated, if somewhat misguided) captures Janos, and turns him into a giant Duracell.
- Meanwhile Vorador, fed up with humanity at last, joins Kain as his mentor, and begins raising a new race of vampires to serve as an army for Kain.

But there are still problems with this scenario. For one, Kain is throughout BO2 never particularly worried or afraid to go up against the Sarafan Lord; and when it expands into shutting down the beginning of a Hylden occupation, he remains unfazed, going into the heart of their gateway into Nosgoth. Now if this is the new history that Kain suddenly remembers, then why would he freak out upon remembering it? He was victorious; his actions shut down some potentially dangerous machinery. Even with Janos alive and powering the Device, Kain was able to kill the Mass and set Janos free. Why should this be a frightening memory, deserving of a frantic warning to leave Janos dead? Furthermore, Janos tells Kain that it was the fall of the Pillars that allowed the Hylden Lord to break through into Nosgoth. This means that, even in the unaltered timeline, he shows up in Nosgoth and presumably starts wreaking havoc. And he thus must be contested in any case. It therefore seems that this must have occurred, in some fashion if not this, in all the timelines we have thus far experienced; BO2, then, is not necessarily the product of an altered history. It is entirely conceivable, from Kain's warning, that the actual alteration is far worse, and we have yet to experience it.

Your scenario isn't really plausable to me. Vorador was already fed up with humanity following the death of his sire. That is quite clear. He just didn't go out of his way to do anything about it (whereas Kain is more likely to "thin the herd" for their tresspasses). Kain would never allow Vorador to become his mentor. Not in a million years. You need to remember that this part of the series shows us Kain at the highest point of his arrogance and "take charge" kind of attitude. He needs no one to help him, he's already proven he can do it himself. As for the "frightening memory" of why Janos must stay dead, I have a feeling we are going to see our "precious" Janos take a shocking twist within the series. (Most likely bad). Janos did something, or was involved in something that totally screwed everything and everyone. He had to have. I pray this will be revealed in SR3 and we will finally get to see the "true" Janos Audron. (meaning good or bad Janos). I feel a lot of heads will roll and jaws will drop.


Originally posted by darien_specter
Lastly, some final thoughts: Beyond that being a rather nasty end for poor, long-suffering Janos Audron (we all talk about Raziel as a tragic hero; what about Janos? Can't this guy get a break?), it did seem to be that this occurred after Kain dropped the Nexus Stone, closing the gateway; it also seemed that Kain was awfully slow in picking up the Soul Reaver when Janos was begging for his help. Would Kain go so far in his youthful arrogance as to allow Janos Audron to perish? What are we to make of the huge statue of Moebius in the Eternal Prison? That was a neat touch. Perhaps he had a role in building it... And just who is this mysterious Seer? Who, Janos-like, teleports Kain to a new place while staying behind... though we never see her die. Will we see her again? (I hope so... ;))

So those are my thoughts. Despite the plot flaws, I quite enjoyed it, and I'm sure I will replay it time and time again, while I await the next installment...

Janos "seems" tragic because that's how he want's us to view him. As helpless, passive, peaceful. This, I feel (and I think it is becoming more apparent) is the way he lures his followers in and keeps their attention and ensures they feel bad for him so they aid him. Now watch, he ends up being Hash in disguise, and destroys Nosgoth. LOL :p (Wouldn't that be ironic?)
I am beginning to enjoy Janos more as time progresses...I can't wait to see how he ends up. As for the Seer, I do think we will see her return and no I do not think she perished in the fire. I had theories that she too is a Hylden and perhaps the Sarafan Lord's sister. (I will look that thread up if you haven't already read it before). Moebius just has to pop up somewhere and somehow. His involvement with the Eternal Prision could be linked to his reward for serving Hash'ak'gik loyally. (To be divulged in future installments I am sure).

Overall, I am glad you enjoyed the game darien! I will try to find some related threads which may help you solve your plot hole problems and perhaps provide you with some new insight to let your discussion juices flow.

Mordred
10th Aug 2002, 01:15
Well apart from the some of te dodgey plot bits, my only real complaint is kain says very little, normall in all the other games, when Kain or Raz come across a painting, mural, statue, what ever there is normally a comment or to, and even tho it used to annoy me after awhile, the vae victus would have been nice :)

i always liked kains comments (as they are normally quite funny or just cool) but sadly there werent many of theses.

but over all its my second fav LOK game

darien_specter
10th Aug 2002, 01:28
Some quick replies:

I defintely agree with your comments on Magnus; I liked him a lot, too. (The first of several, no doubt, things I forgot to metion...) It was really great how, when his mind cleared, we saw how loyal he was to Kain... and how Kain killed him in mercy, allowing his friend to rest.

I know that the different design team does things differently; aesthetics just weighs heavily with me, and those things just didn't look as good from an aesthetic sense. Good point about Janos, though, coping with this human-dominated time; I would say, though, that he apparently had plenty of time both before and during the Sarafan crusade to contemplate that, as the last living member of his race, hidden away beyond the humans' reach for his self-protection... I also don't know that it would make his yellow eyes turn red... :p but I quibble.

While I agree that you're right about Kain's personality, nevertheless we see just what I described going on in BO2. Vorador was, I would say, more disgusted with mankind than anything else; which is why, after the slaughter of his sire and his revenge upon the Circle, he went into hiding in the swamp, and counseled both Raziel and Kain against meddling. When I said "fed up," I was describing a serious change in behavior; in helping Kain, he is taking a far greater role in meddling in "the affairs of men", which seems to imply a serious change in attitude, because he was so against it before. As you said in the preceding paragraph, Vorador wanted to live as the ancients, whom he would remember; Kain wanted to dominate. Helping Kain is aiding domination. As for Kain, he seems (I'll probably watch that intro several more times later, I'm about to go out for the evening) to be seeking Vorador's counsel, as they look over the map table. And I doubt he could order Vorador to repopulate the vampiric race for the purposes of an army; one would think Vorador would counsel them against joining Kain's army, unless he and Kain had come to some sort of agreement. And doesn't Kain describe him as a mentor or something in BO? (Not sure on that; I'll have to check later.) But in any event, I am not entirely convinced that this is an altered-history event in any case, so the scenario was just sort of thrown out; it is certainly open to revision...

Lastly: what's all this about Janos' having some sort of dark/evil intentions? "Luring his followers in" and so forth? :eek: When have we seen any evidence of that? Janos is one of my favorite characters precisely because he seems to me to be free from the sort of deceitful manipulation employed by so many others. You'll have to come up with some sort of evidence on that one (or just give me a thread where that's been discussed)...

P.S. - Didn't the Seer have fangs? I haven't played back through to really become aware of details, but she looked to me more like a vampire beginning a Vorador/Old Kain phase of evolution... (Maybe we'll see the beginning of that for Kain in BO3?)

Umah Bloodomen
10th Aug 2002, 01:39
Originally posted by darien_specter

Lastly: what's all this about Janos' having some sort of dark/evil intentions? "Luring his followers in" and so forth? :eek: When have we seen any evidence of that? Janos is one of my favorite characters precisely because he seems to me to be free from the sort of deceitful manipulation employed by so many others. You'll have to come up with some sort of evidence on that one (or just give me a thread where that's been discussed)...

P.S. - Didn't the Seer have fangs? I haven't played back through to really become aware of details, but she looked to me more like a vampire beginning a Vorador/Old Kain phase of evolution... (Maybe we'll see the beginning of that for Kain in BO3?)

There is no evidence...just speculation. I am trying to remember who offhand had a similar speculation about Janos. There hasn't been any evidence to support it within the game, hence why I believe we may soon be in for a big surprise with our friend Mr. Audron. Something just doesn't add up right with him. Sure he plays the role of an "innocent" patriarch, but please, this is LOK, irony rules here. :p
If Janos didn't do anything drastic, I don't see why Kain would be all dumbfounded at the end of SR2 and demand that Janos stay dead. This couldn't be strictly a Hylden reference. Kain defeated the Hylden for the second time (the first being done by the ancients). And he did it nearly single-handedly.
The more we discuss Janos being some sort of a saint, the more I am inclined to believe he isn't. There are too many contradictions to him at this point, and we most definately aren't getting the "full story".

Again I will find the Seer thread for you. It may spark your interests. She does indeed have fangs, which some people have suggested she may be a hybrid vamp-hylden. My view on it was that she obtained a similar vampyric gift for turning against her race and thus was allowed to stay in Nosgoth. (Keep checking this thread because I will post the link here).

EDIT Here you are, darien...

(REPOST) The Seer is Revealed...well, partly...LOL (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=727&highlight=The+Seer+us+revealed)

darien_specter
10th Aug 2002, 06:37
Very, very interesting about the Seer, Umah... I only partially noticed those murals, because I had another task at hand... I'm sure I'll take a good look the next time, although I did notice the one of the ancient vampire being harmed at the hands of a Hylden, and the female depicted in a mural alone (can't remember where.) She is certainly enough of an enigmatic figure to have some sort of mystery about her... I will have to do some more research before I can answer, but it is a very good theory from what I have read and know so far... :D

My point about Kain's new memories was more against the idea that BO2 is in the new timeline. From BO2, it doesn't appear that Janos did anything earth-shattering between SR2 and BO2. That there must have been something drastically wrong with Janos being revived is evident from Kain's warning, and it can't have been the events in BO2... (It also cannot have occurred in anything that Raziel has experienced, because none of his memories changed. So any negative effect must have happened before his resurrection, and not in the time periods we've visited thus far...) But it seems unnecessarily cynical to assume that Janos must be evil in some fashion just because he doesn't appear to be. Neither, for that matter, does Vorador, but no one expects him to show up and rip what's left of Raziel's wings out of his back or something... It is entirely conceivable that he is, really, a benevolent figure, as he has been depicted in two chapters of this story now... I will continue to defend Janos, even if no one else will... :D

darien_specter
10th Aug 2002, 07:49
I decided to go through and read some of the more interesting looking posts in this fourm since "the beginning," and found this quote which I'd forgotten (having only played it once, after all): from Kain to Vorador, "Do you so wish to return to the grave, old friend? You are in no position to challenge me." So Kain knows damn good and well that Vorador was dead; we just don't get to hear how this little miracle was accomplished somewhere in the century between the future era in SR2 and the proloque of BO2. That also seems to further strengthen the idea that this is not the timeline produced as a consquence of SR2; leaving then a living Janos Audron as the only unexplained presence...

WHAT IF: the Hylden Lord restored Janos to life, so he could use him as a battery...

warpsavant
12th Aug 2002, 20:24
The Hylden Lord did not break thru until Kain refused the Sacrifice.
Since Moebius had the Sarafan bring the Heart back to the Stronghold, and even Raziel says in the beg of Sr2 (500 yrs after the fact) When he see's the mural of Janos in the chapel he even mentions the Sarafan gaurded the heart well. Since they have the heart, and most of us believe they are somehow in cahoots with the Hylden, it makes sense that possibly Mortanius, Moebius or even Elzevir (ok, well not Elzevir) could just return the Heart to Janos and then immediately imprison him, in a time when Raziel is not able to.

But who says that is what Raziel does? He must still find the Heart, and maybe Kains warning was to imply to Raziel to stop whoever it is was that restored Janos. It's just we all think it had to be Raziel since that is what he wanted to do.

Janos also had to be imprisoned after his revival, because in BO2 Vorador says "Sire, I thought they killed you?" And in Sr2 Vorador mentions how Janos was murdered 5 centuries ago by the Sarafan, so I am under the impression that in BO2 Vorador was refering to the attack at the retreat, just before he attacked the Co9. If Janos was revived and was free to roam around, why wouldnt Vorador have known?

Lately Ive been wondering why Vorador? What was it about him that caused Janos to make him a vampire? Got to be an interesting story there that we dont know. If Janos is truly noble and good, I can't see him making vampires considering he apparently views what happened to them when they banished the Hylden as a "curse." I wonder if he turned Vorador to save his life, or whatever. I dont know, but I think its interesting.

darien_specter
12th Aug 2002, 20:48
Hmm, interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that... In fact, given BO2, I'd say that becomes a likely possibility from a gameplay standpoint: it gives us a motive for a good major enemy battle, stopping whoever's got the Heart.

Vorador seems ridiculously old. Perhaps, after the banishment, and when the humans were in the ascendance while the vampires were declining, Vorador was one of a few who remained faithful to the ancients, perhaps even serving Janos personally? And like you said, warp, something happened to him, and this was how Janos saved his life.

That also raises a thought in my mind: that, in the era of the ancients' fullest strength, perhaps the humans were loyal to them, and donated their blood in small portions to sustain the ancients. Kind of like Raziel can "sip" at a human's soul in the citadel in SR1, and how we were told the vampire worshippers seemed to do something like that, among their more grisly sacrifices. Because like you said, Janos (who is all we know of the ancients' mindset, but who I would think is fairly representative) does regard it as a curse, and seems to hate feeding upon men. That might give another reason (and I'm sure, as with the extinction of any culture, that there were many) for the ancients dying out: mankind began to rebel, and withhold from the ancients their only source of life, without which they die...

But I'm still wondering about Janos' yelling at the Hylden Lord about forcing them to prey on men, because there is still that mural in the Pillars shrine showing them feeding on a deer or cow...

warpsavant
13th Aug 2002, 00:33
I'm not sure Janos ever "preyed" on men. He doesn't seem like that kind of guy, plus Janos AND Vorador both mention Janos being sustained only by obligation and his Gaurdianship, they made it a point to point that out in both sets of dialogue, and makes me wonder if Janos ever fed on people.

It's very possible the humans gave them blood, and Vorador indeed could be one of these people, but going back to the Mural of the cow, it looks as if they are trying to eat the cow to sustain them, and it isn't working. You also see the Ancients flying straight down into the ground. I think this is the Ancient's commiting mass suicide, not being able to accept their plight, refusing to feed on the humans. This I think is one of the reasons they die out, plus they couldn't reproduce the same, it must have took quite some time for them to figure out how to procreate. During wich time even more of em would die. (Unless of course the way they pass vampirism is by just feeding on people-but this seems unlikely, it appears to be some sort of transfer of blood, similiar to Vorador offering Kain blood in his Mansion, possibly)

Vorador is really old, but not as old the Seer apparently, neither compares to how old Janos has to be.

I'm also unsure the Ancients were ever at full strength, I'm leaning towards them being oppresed, thats how the Hylden race seems to be, what with the dialogue between the Hylden and the Human and he speaks of caves and monkeys. The Hylden seem way more technologically advanced than the Vampires ever were. I think the Vampires and humans together may have been oppressed, and worked together to free themselves. The wars lasted thosands of years I thought. Plus you have the builder, who was imprisoned (we dont know who imprisoned him) The Gaurds say people there were being punished for crimes against the gods. It's possible this Hylden Builders "Device" somehow angered the Gods, (was a threat to them) and thus he was imprisoned. I doubt the Sarafan Lord new the builder was there, otherwise he probably would have forced him to help his cause (or kill him, so he can't tell anyone what he knows). I think the Device is what poisons the land and creates the wasteland in SR1. (that combined with the destruction of the pillars) This would def make the gods mad, thus they have him imprisoned so the device could never be used, or so they thought.

okay I babbled enough! Someone else's turn.


"End the vampires parasitic curse, Raziel, and restore Nosgoth"
-Elder God SR2


Some interesting theories can be found here:

http://s1.cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=32493&topic=2952219

darien_specter
13th Aug 2002, 01:04
Wow, that is GREAT stuff about that mural! I never thought of that... but it certainly makes sense, and is another reason for their extinction. Like I said, I expect it to be multi-faceted... but now that you mention that, I would go along and say that was probably the biggest impact (after the war, anyway, and perhaps drew more casualties even than the war).

I'm still trying to puzzle out the apparent technological differences between the ancients and the Hylden. (Because, even if the Hylden city is relatively new, which it doesn't seem to be, the underground workings of the Device certainly are not.) Part of that, I feel I must lay on the different aesthetic concepts of the designers. But, as I am fond of saying, there must be an explanation of some sort. From the murals in the Pillars shrine, it seems more to me as if they are equals; I would think that if the Hylden were oppressing them, there would have been a mural to that effect somewhere. Unless it shamed them too much... but that seems sort of out of character, because the blood curse obviously shames them, and yet that is fully acknowledged and blamed. Too, I might have expected a relief of ancients in bondage in the Hylden city... Nevertheless, that does not explain the difference in tech. In everything we've seen before BO2, industrial technology seems to belong more to the later eras; the places of the ancients have a heavy Greek ruin air about them. Perhaps the Hylden were more practical and interested in technology, but the ancients more interested in knowledge and the taming of the arcane elements, from the evidence of the forges and the Reaver. Theirs might be a more ethereal power...

The idea of an actual deity or deities that we have yet to see certainly throws a wrinkle into all our assumptions, but again makes logical sense, because it seems very odd to me that such a thing would just not be present in some form. Especially with the ancients, whose society really echoes Greco-Roman to me anyway. That could shed a little more light on the nature of the nine seperate powers of the Pillars, some which I have always thought a little peculiar; perhaps these are representative of nine gods? As you said, such a thing would provide new insight into the Eternal Prison's creation, since it seems out of character for the ancients, and yet not really connected with the Hylden in any way save locks (which I said eleswhere they could possibly have installed later). And that would also jive with the Guardian mindset, as if these are gifts from their gods, and must be well tended...

That also makes sense about the Device poisoning Nosgoth; sort of like a leaky reactor, when Kain poisoned the Mass, maybe it started seeping out of the cavern... I bet the Elder is wrapped up in that somehow, too, because, as Raziel points out, as the land degenerates, he seems to prosper...

warpsavant
13th Aug 2002, 04:06
There are murals of the Hylden oppresing the Vampires in the Hylden city, and the humans claimed to have been there forever, so I thought perhaps the Hylden City was very old, so I felt they were more advanced. And even though the Hylden got banished, they still somehow cursed the ancients. The Hylden are thriving in the Demon Realm compared to the plight of the Vampires in Nosgoth. Even though the Pillars themselves are obviously extremely sophisticated, it doesn't smell of technology, it smells of magic, and if the Gods themselves were concerned enough to imprison one of the Hylden, it's possible they had a hand in the Vampires ultimately banishing them. Even Moebius admits in Sr2 that the Pillars embody the divine force of the land or some such in the very begining.



Male Slave:
Huh? What was that?

Female Slave:
He is the one, he must be - look at him. He is the one who is working against them.

Male Slave:
Sir, is it true? Are you the vampire who's been making war on the demons?

Kain:
I am Kain. Do you know this place well?

Female Slave:
We do, my lord.

Kain:
I must find the mechanism these creatures use to hide their presence in this city.

Female Slave:
He can show you.
(to the male slave)
Go on.

Male Slave:
It is there, my lord. That building. I've heard them talking. The device you seek is within.

Kain takes note of the building. He then asks about the container that is floating above the water, and going into it.

Kain:
I thank you. Now, tell me, what is that?

Male Slave:
That is the only way to get within. The doors to the building no longer function.

Female Slave:
Like so much of this place.

Kain indicates another building.

Kain:
And that one there?

Male Slave:
We don't know.

Female Slave:
But our stories tell us that is where the demons first appeared in our world.

Kain:
Stories? How long have your kind been in this place?

Female Slave:
We have been here forever. Our oldest fables tell us that our gods abandoned us here.

Male Slave:
There are others like us, new ones, soft ones. The demons bring them here from other places to work. They tell other stories.
Female Slave:

They had no knowledge of the arrival of the demons. We had to tell them.

Kain:
Enough. Be silent.

That building surely leads to the gate, but first, I must destroy the device.

Kain V.O.:
How long had the Hylden held a foothold here, while we, unsuspecting, fought and triumphed in our petty wars above?


Did the early humans think the Hylden were gods possibly?



Male Slave:
It's not possible! I beg you!

Hylden:
When you were but hairless apes cowering in caves, we gave you all that you had.
And now, we take it back.

Male Slave:
No! (Screams)

warpsavant
13th Aug 2002, 04:34
I forgot to mention the Hylden and destiny. They all seem to mention something about destiny, how they are destined to win and have their revenge. (as if the curse wasn't enough) I thought possibly one of the reasons they felt this way is perhaps they were the more superior in the Ancient days, always having an advantage.

One of the things I noticed in the large Dark Forge mural is the appearance of 2 blue figures who appear to be riding horses. I thought this may be a sign of some type of cavalry to the rescue sort of thing. The fact that some Murals have normal winged vampires(in the back of the light forge), and others have bat winged vampires, I thought maybe the one came to help the other somehow. (If you've heard the theory of Raz's clan going back in time to become the ancients (or possibly just help them turn the tide of the war) you know what I'm saying.) Not that I believe they are Raziels Clan coming to save the Ancients, but I've seen stuff like that come up.)

darien_specter
13th Aug 2002, 18:35
First, a couple questions: where in the Hylden city are the oppression murals/reliefs? (I missed a lot, I've only been through once!) Which mural in SR2 shows the bat winged vampires? I want to see all of this... love analyzing murals... (And, though I hate to sound clich├ęd, "I'm from Missouri - you've got to show me!" :p)

It could very well be that some of the humans worshipped the Hylden... and some, I expect, worshipped the ancients at some point as well. (Actually, maybe not - though I think the Hylden would encourage such a view, methinks the ancients might discourage it.) I would put forth, though, that perhaps those who worshipped the Hylden worshipped the original Hylden, before they were banished; and, since they returned in an altered form, they have yet to recognize them for who they are. In the dialogue you helpfully provided, "Our oldest fables tell us that our gods abandoned us here;" and, "Are you the vampire who's been making war on the demons?" Which means they clearly fear what came back.

Oooh, a new thought just hit me: what if the Hylden City is not of their origin? After all, there is a large gateway into the demon realm here; and the slaves say, "The doors to the building no longer function. FS:Like so much of this place." So what if they don't know how to run the stuff very well either? More likely, though, they either negleected the machinery, or forgot how to maintain some of it whilst in the demon realm... blah...

warpsavant
13th Aug 2002, 19:34
You an find the Hylden Murals here.

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fnosgothfrm12.showMessageRange?topicID=459.topic&start=1&stop=20

If you visit the Nosgoth Blood site Azrael made, he has the murals posted there. Just look at the wings you'll see what I mean. It certan murals the wings appear to have feathers and in others they do not.

I thought the place didn't work correctly because the Hylden havent been there since they were banished, and when they came back, they had bigger things to worry about than fixing doors and lasers and stuff. The humans were probably there worshiping the original Hylden, and since the one Hylden mentions giving humans everything they have, it makes sense that when the Hylden were banished that the Humans thought they were abandoned.

But you are correct when the Hylden return the humans no longer look at them as gods but demons and fear them.

darien_specter
13th Aug 2002, 22:39
The one where an ancient is getting stabbed through the chest? I figured that one was a battle scene, or perhaps torture of prisoners... but like I said, I've only played through once. I can also see opression... There's just too little info on the era to be sure. I'm hoping for more in SR3 myself... Interesting thing I noticed, though: that ancient has 5 fingers, not 3... wonder what that's all about?

I still haven't found any bat-winged vampires in the SR2 murals... there were some in the light forge that are much more stylized than the others, such that feathers are not clearly depicted. Is that what you're talking about?

warpsavant
14th Aug 2002, 03:27
The wings depicted in the back of the Light Forge where you get one of the "reflector" things, that one, it looks like those guys have wings like Janos, but in the Dark Forge, those guys have the Vamp Raziel wings. Also on the ceiling of the Fire Forge are more murals of ancients with Janos like wings. Guys in the Air Forge have feathery wings too, so I guess only that one dark forge mural they seem bat like(the with the V.O.). (at least to me)

The one where there are 2 guys holdiong this other guy, that one smells like oppresion.

darien_specter
14th Aug 2002, 07:02
Hmm, that's true. That looks very oppresive to me as well. But is he ancient or human? He has no wings... but we can't see his ears, so it's hard to be sure. Because he could have been de-winged, after all...

With Az's site down, I can't go look, so I'll have to take your word for it... though I would counter by saying that those murals are so faded it's hard for me to make much sense of them. Az noticed way more than I could ever make out of them...

"Help! Help! I'm bein' repressed!" :D

warpsavant
14th Aug 2002, 20:04
Yeah I play games on a big TV and sit really close so everything looks real big.

I always thought they were all ancients in the Murals, it never occured to me that guy might be human. But if he is human, and the Hylden treated the humans like that I would have to think they'd do the same to the Vampires whenever they would get the chance. I guess it's possible that this entire thing could have started because of the humans, their relationship with the Ancient Vampires, and how they were treated by the Hylden.

Vampmaster
14th Aug 2002, 21:33
Just because Janos may be hiding things doesn't mean he's a bad guy. Maybe he fed on humans but didn't tell Raz because he was ashamed. The human slaves may have believed the vampires were the gods who protected them from the Hylden but then abandoned them. (I was half expecting Kain to say "No we haven't!") I know some people in Nosgoth know that neither Vampires, Hylden, squids etc are gods because Raziel says "Damn you Kain you are not God! This act of genocide is unconcienable!" I don't think the Seer is the hylden in the murals because she has hair and ears, but the hylden have some kind of structure around their heads. I forgot what else I was going to say.

keepittrue
15th Aug 2002, 08:06
Ok, I think you guys are looking a little too much into things. Janos for gods sake fed on humans, what would give you the impression he didnt, everything from BO1 to BO2 points to he did feed on humans. Im not being a prick but please explain your logic better.

warpsavant
15th Aug 2002, 19:55
Cant change what the Vampire said.


Vorador:

Fairy tales, boy.
The delusions of an ancient culture, clinging to hope long after the world had discarded them.
Their bloodline trickled away, until only one of the Ancients remained - sustained solely by obligation and his unfaltering faith in the old prophesies.


[Quote] Janos:

For thousands of years, I have waited... alone here, losing faith...
At the time of the Binding, nine guardians were called to serve the Pillars. And I was summoned as the tenth guardian - the keeper of the Reaver, the weapon of our salvation.
Over time, our race died out. Until I alone remained... sustained only by my obligation to you, and by my guardianship of the blade.
Janos turns and walks contemplatively toward the balcony -

Raziel:

And the other nine? Why did their guardianship not sustain them?
Janos considers for a moment, then responds wistfully.

Janos:

I don't know.


It's not like we ever saw Janos feed on anyone, and if he truly is Noble and feels that humans are just unenlightened creatures vunerable to manipulation I have an EXTREMELY hard time thinking the guy is going to prey on these same creatures. I'm not saying this is how it is, but I do not think you can rule out Janos Audron may have never feed on people.

Sarxis
16th Aug 2002, 06:43
It really wouldn't surprise me either way- if Janos did or did not feed on humans. Both could be explained by his bloodlust, or by his self control.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cbinkowski194251/sarxissig.jpg

LordKain3:16
19th Aug 2002, 14:23
The Only thing I didn't like about Blood Omen 2 is the the dialogue was alittle to cartoonish with boss fights and talking as well as the area to.


PS: Is it just me or does Janos Aurdon In BO2 look Like Julius Ceasar.:confused:

Power reaver
19th Aug 2002, 16:16
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
The more we discuss Janos being some sort of a saint, the more I am inclined to believe he isn't. There are too many contradictions to him at this point, and we most definately aren't getting the "full story".

Me too , Janos is just too good to be true . He seems to care only and only of the wellbeing of Nosgoth (and people related to it) , now thats a little too generous espicially if your willing to give your own life for it and espicially because this is LOK . LOK always reflected real life (Everybody is livin in this world to get something , although we do care about other people it all comes down to selfishness , yes its horrible but true) , characters in LOK have always been looking for their share , now Janos seems to be the exact opposite . And to me he seems like **Iam Mr.goodie goodie , so feel free to turn your back on me and I feel free to stab it** , people who act like that always end up back stabing you . Its personal experience , and so Janos automatically comes into my suspicion . There has to be something in it for him if he cares so much about everything .

Sorry Janos Fans but I wouldent be surprised if Janos ended up kicking Raziel into oblivion .:rolleyes: