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Cyber_Joe
3rd Aug 2002, 15:04
I could only get my hands on BO2 last week and now that I've finished it, there are a few things I would like to know your opinion about them (they have probably been discussed on the forum already but I've been away for the last 3/4 months :( ) :

1º -> Why must Janos stay dead? Because Kain needs him to be revived by the Hylden soh he would be feeding the device and help Kain in his jouney? How was he revived? Did they just returned his heart?

2º -> What do you think will happen to Janos in the demon realm? I think the SL said something about the consequences Janos would suffer from being there for somo time.

3º -> Was the seer who gave Kain the telechinesis ability a Hylden? An ancient? I could figure out the dialog at that cutscne because I had somo sound problems, the sound had a lot of breaks in the cutscenes and sometimes it was simply impossible to understand :(

4º -> What do you think of that moebius' statue at the eternal prison? As he is the time guardian it makes some sence (eternal -> time -> and the infinite symbol at the statue) but is there another reason? :confused:

5º -> What was the experiment those guys at the eternal prision were talking about? It certainly had to do with that Hylden, the maker i think, who was imprisioned there.

P.S -> Is there any "Dark Chronical" for BO2? I really need it because of my sound problems :( . Sorry for my english :D

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Aug 2002, 18:51
Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
I could only get my hands on BO2 last week and now that I've finished it, there are a few things I would like to know your opinion about them (they have probably been discussed on the forum already but I've been away for the last 3/4 months :( ) :

It's okay. We will do our best to help you out based on what we know for fact and what theories we've currently come up with and discussed. :)


Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
1º -> Why must Janos stay dead? Because Kain needs him to be revived by the Hylden soh he would be feeding the device and help Kain in his jouney? How was he revived? Did they just returned his heart?

This hasn't been disclosed yet within the games. Our speculations and theories suggest that Janos must stay dead so the Hylden can't power the device and can't have such a control/influence around Meridian. We are inclined to believe that Janos' heart was returned to him at some point which caused him to return to life. Personally I believe this will occur sometime within Soul Reaver 3 when it comes out.


Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
2º -> What do you think will happen to Janos in the demon realm? I think the SL said something about the consequences Janos would suffer from being there for somo time.[/b]

Hmmm. I think Janos may devolve within the demon realm, perhaps becoming insane or something. I am inclined to believe that he didn't end up in the demon realm, he merely flew away once he fell off the Hylden gate. This is still also up in the air at this point.


Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
3º -> Was the seer who gave Kain the telechinesis ability a Hylden? An ancient? I could figure out the dialog at that cutscne because I had somo sound problems, the sound had a lot of breaks in the cutscenes and sometimes it was simply impossible to understand :(

Popular belief suggests that the Seer is a Hylden who wasn't cursed as much as the other Hylden. (I will look up an interesting thread concerning many theories surrounding her and post them here. As for the dialogue. Here it is


Originally spoken in BO2, compliments of Ardeth Silvereni's website
Some time later, he enters the abode of the Seer. She has her back to him.

The Seer:

Be gone, Dark One. I did not send for you.
Kain:

And yet, here I am.
She turns to face him.

The Seer:

So I see. Kain, the Disruptor, the pebble in the pond who destroys all he touches.
Kain:

You know me, woman?
The Seer:

Better than you know yourself.
Kain:

And do you know why I'm here?
The Seer:

Perhaps.
Kain:

I seek information, and I must have it. What can you tell me of the device?
The Seer:

The Device? You're playing a dangerous game. Return to your night hunting, vampire. Enjoy what time remains to you, short though it is.
Kain:

I desire far more than blood. Where is the Device? I will not go without an answer.
The Seer:

Do you so enjoy being Vorador's lapdog?
Kain:

I am no man's dog, witch!
The Seer:

No, I see that now. I sense your conviction.
I shall help you. If Nosgoth is ever to be healed, the Device must be destroyed. And you, of all men, could be the one to do it.
Know this, the Device has lain dormant beneath Meridian for time beyond time. But now the Sarafan Lord has empowered the machine to unleash its destruction upon the land. The entrance to the Device lies in the heart of the city itself, under the very noses of the aristocracy.
You will know the building by this sign.
The Seer creates an image in the air for Kain to see, a circle with a cross through it.

The Seer:

You will see this more than once, but the first one will show you the entrance to the device. No human can operate it, but a vampire could.
Kain:

What must I do?
The Seer:

Come here. Drink! Drink my blood. Now!
Kain recoils slightly as she sharply holds out her arms to him.

Kain:

What manner of creature are you? You are like no vampire that I have seen.
The Seer:

Who I am, what I am, is of no concern to you. Time presses -
The house rocks under the force of an impact from outside. Flames start to take hold of the building's exterior.

The Seer:

He is here.
Do as I tell you. If you are to destroy the Device and save Nosgoth, you must drink.
Kain bends to drink from the Seer's outstretched wrist.

The Seer:

Oh, good... Yes, drink, my Dark Prince. Feel my powers coursing through your veins.
The Seer tells Kain what this has achieved as he releases her.

The Seer:

You can manipulate objects already by sheer will alone, but as you were taught, you can only use this ability at close range. By drinking my blood, you will be granted the gift of Telekinesis. You will be able to manipulate objects at a great distance, and you will be able to activate this symbol, and enter the Device.
The Seer calls up the image again.
Outside her abode, the Sarafan Lord is commanding his troops.

The Sarafan Lord:

Bathe them in fire. Let them learn, as they writhe in the flames and their bones dissolve, the futility of their actions.
The vampire and all of his kind shall be razed from the land. This world will be made pure by my hand. I will give you the peace you seek, Kain. Your death beckons you.
Back inside, the Seer instructs Kain.

The Seer:

He has found you. Your destiny draws even closer. I will transport you to the Device. From there, use your newfound ability to gain entrance.
Kain:

What of you, Seer? Escape with me. I'm in need of allies.
The Seer:

Am I your ally? My fate lies along a different path. Goodbye, Kain.



Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
[4º -> What do you think of that moebius' statue at the eternal prison? As he is the time guardian it makes some sence (eternal -> time -> and the infinite symbol at the statue) but is there another reason? :confused:

Obviously Moebius and the Hylden are aligned somehow. (Seeing the Builder was imprisoned within the Eternal Prison as was Kain's general, Magnus). It appears that the prison rests in another dimension however. I had speculated that the Guardian of Dimension, Azimuth (from BO1) may also have a hand in things. But this is unclear yet. Moebius and Azimuth were amongst Hash'ak'gik (or the Dark Entity's) followers and it is also rumored that the Hylden were banished to his demon dimension.



Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
[5º -> What was the experiment those guys at the eternal prision were talking about? It certainly had to do with that Hylden, the maker i think, who was imprisioned there.

From what I gathered from the script, it is a "spiritual transformation" process. I would assume this means taking those who have done wrong, or maybe hold different beliefs (such as in the Pillars and ancient magic), brainwashing them and then forcing them to work for the Hylden or fight for the Hylden cause perhaps. (That is just a random theory of mine there). Here is the quote from the Warden.


Originally Spoken by the Warden of the Eternal Prison
Prison Guardian:

You there! I don't know you. Are you a guest? A visitor? An intruder?
We do not permit guests to disturb our routine. We are involved in important work here and nothing, nothing, must be allowed to interfere.
This is a place where those who have transgressed the laws of the gods and man, and so created a dangerous imbalance within themselves, contemplate the wrong that they have done, through peaceful, uninterrupted meditation, until they have regained the balance of their true, perfect inner nature.
This process must not be interrupted for any reason, until a spiritual transformation has been achieved, however long that may take. Thus no guests, no visitors, are allowed. And intruders, we know how to deal with.
Go! Now!

It isn't really clear what they are doing in the Eternal Prison other than the "spiritual transformation" whatever that is exactly.



Originally posted by Cyber_Joe
[[P.S -> Is there any "Dark Chronical" for BO2? I really need it because of my sound problems :( . Sorry for my english :D

I highly recommend these sites for you to check out. (For scripts and related LoK information:

www.darkchronicle.co.uk (Compliments of Ardeth Silvereni)
www.nosgoth.net (Hasn't been updated in a long while, but still great for information)

I will try to look up some other threads for you to check out pertaining to some of the questions you have asked. I will edit this post accordingly. :)

chuffy
4th Aug 2002, 00:08
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Hmmm. I think Janos may devolve within the demon realm, perhaps becoming insane or something. I am inclined to believe that he didn't end up in the demon realm, he merely flew away once he fell off the Hylden gate. This is still also up in the air at this point.


i think that he will turn into Hash. A big jump. but he did look like him when he was in the chamber, feeding the mass.

chuffy

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 01:14
Janos is not Hash ak Gik

Janos said the d.d. turned the Hylden into what they truly were. And the S.L. was like GO! See what it does of you!

So Janos is either an Angel, or pure EviL and looks like the Beast again.


I think the Seer is a Hylden.

I think Moebius discovered the existence of the E.P. and put his statue in there.

I thought perhaps that Magnus was the experiment.

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 01:51
Umah:
From what I gathered from the script, it is a "spiritual transformation" process. I would assume this means taking those who have done wrong, or maybe hold different beliefs (such as in the Pillars and ancient magic), brainwashing them and then forcing them to work for the Hylden or fight for the Hylden cause perhaps. (That is just a random theory of mine there). Here is the quote from the Warden. Hmmm, There is no suggestion that the Hylden have any part, whatsoever, with the rehabilitation of the Prisoners. In fact, if there is any suggestion it is the Ancients since the Builder himself said, "Before it could be completed, however, I was imprisoned here, and the rest of my race was banished to another, far more terrible realm." The Builder happens to suggest rather heavily that if not locked up he would have finished the Device, why would the Hylden lock him up then? Even if he had regrets it would be sheer stupidity on their part to lock him up before he can finish.

About the Guards: I noticed something interesting, I will repost the quote and bold and underline the interesting phrase he uses:

Originally Spoken by the Warden of the Eternal Prison
Prison Guardian:

You there! I don't know you. Are you a guest? A visitor? An intruder?
We do not permit guests to disturb our routine. We are involved in important work here and nothing, nothing, must be allowed to interfere.
This is a place where those who have transgressed the laws of the gods and man, and so created a dangerous imbalance within themselves, contemplate the wrong that they have done, through peaceful, uninterrupted meditation, until they have regained the balance of their true, perfect inner nature.
This process must not be interrupted for any reason, until a spiritual transformation has been achieved, however long that may take. Thus no guests, no visitors, are allowed. And intruders, we know how to deal with.
Go! Now!
I am wondering how many other Pillar Guardians had a hand in this. The Eternal Prison itself is dangerously unbalanced in its methodology, yet it is claiming to strive to Spiritually Transform its prisoners into perfectly Inner Balanced beings...

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 07:03
Originally posted by Non-existent
Umah: Hmmm, There is no suggestion that the Hylden have any part, whatsoever, with the rehabilitation of the Prisoners. In fact, if there is any suggestion it is the Ancients since the Builder himself said, "Before it could be completed, however, I was imprisoned here, and the rest of my race was banished to another, far more terrible realm." The Builder happens to suggest rather heavily that if not locked up he would have finished the Device, why would the Hylden lock him up then? Even if he had regrets it would be sheer stupidity on their part to lock him up before he can finish.

General suggestion on my part, Non-Existant. As for the "before it was finished" statement. That described The Device, not the Prison itself. (Forgive me, but you weren't specific on what you were referring to there, so I assumed it was the Prison). Here's the Builder's dialogue.


Original Dialogue between Kain and the Builder in BO2

The Builder:

Yes, yes. The Device. The Device was built as a weapon aeons ago when two races warred with each other for dominance of Nosgoth. It houses an ancient creature, whose very mind is capable of killing any living thing with but a thought.
The Device was to channel the mental energy of this creature, and direct it onto Nosgoth. It would attune the creature's mind to kill all living creatures except for my race. Before it could be completed, however, I was imprisoned here, and the rest of my race was banished to another, far more terrible realm.

Kain:

So this Device was never finished? And yet, the creature still lives within it?

The Builder:

It was dubbed 'The Mass'. It is eternal and deadly, yet harmless without a channel for its mind. But we never completed the weapon. We needed a way to send its energy out of the Device and into the land itself. We needed a conduit throughout the cities - a network, if you will. Once this network was created, the Device would channel the mental energy of the Mass, and send death upon our enemies.

Now, from how I interpreted the statement's above, I gathered these suggestions:


1. Obviously the Device is an ancient Hylden device, used in the battle of the Ancients vs. Hylden in Prehistoric Nosgoth.

2. The power of such a device was widely known, and it's intentions appear to be sinister. (Killing life within Nosgoth).

My question that arise from this are:

1. Why did the Builder leave work on the device? Could it be that the Builder planned to Sabotage the device and the plans of the Sarafan Lord?

The dialogue which follows the part I posted, suggests that he knew how to destroy the Device and the Mass within it. How would you know that from simple plans and orders to build the thing? I don't think you would personally. Something happened, very long ago, that created some sort of Hylden resistance (or anti war faction). Granted the Builder is only one Hylden that we saw imprisoned, but if I were the Hylden, and I had a traitor (not necessarily a traitor, but someone who opposed what I was trying to instill within my people) then I most certainly would imprison them in our correction facilities.

Here's the quote for you (where I derive my notion of the Builder being a sabateur (sp?) ).


Original Dialogue between Kain and the Builder in BO2

Kain:

But the Sarafan Lord will. The Glyphs. He is using the Glyphs to channel the Mass to wipe out the city, humans and vampires alike. That must be his plan.


The Builder:

If this is indeed true, you must act quickly. It will be to large a task to destroy the Device itself. You must kill the Mass itself.

Kain:

You said this creature was eternal.

The Builder:

It has a simple weakness. Blood is like poison to its system. And not any blood, but pure blood from the elder races. My blood. My blood will poison and kill the creature.
Drink from me, vampire, and use my life's blood to kill that which I created out of arrogance and pride. Kill me so that the Mass will die, and the Device will be destroyed.



Originally posted by Non-existent
About the Guards: I noticed something interesting, I will repost the quote and bold and underline the interesting phrase he uses:

I am wondering how many other Pillar Guardians had a hand in this. The Eternal Prison itself is dangerously unbalanced in its methodology, yet it is claiming to strive to Spiritually Transform its prisoners into perfectly Inner Balanced beings...

Interesting notion. I like this. I would assume Azimuth did, (Dimension...hence the great location...LOL). Moebius obviously did (hence the homage payed to him through the statue). If the Hylden are in cahoots with Hash'ak'gik, I would assume, Mortanius might have (under possesson of course). This is a stretch, but Ariel could have been. (She's a manipulative one and could have her hands in a lot of cookie jars for all we know).


All BO2 dialogue appears compliments of Ardeth Silvereni's website: www.darkchronicle.co.uk

EDIT Had to touch up my pretty colors and fix some bold text. ***grumbles about UBB code*** LOL :p

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 08:16
Umah:
1. Obviously the Device is an ancient Hylden device, used in the battle of the Ancients vs. Hylden in Prehistoric Nosgoth.

2. The power of such a device was widely known, and it's intentions appear to be sinister. (Killing life within Nosgoth).

My question that arise from this are:

1. Why did the Builder leave work on the device? Could it be that the Builder planned to Sabotage the device and the plans of the Sarafan Lord?
I do not see how you are getting the question, "Why did the Builder leave work on the device?"

From the builder's own words: "Before it could be completed, however, I was imprisoned here, and the rest of my race was banished to another, far more terrible realm."

This says to me that before he could finish he was imprisoned. There is no mention that he left before hand.


Umah Bloodomen: The dialogue which follows the part I posted, suggests that he knew how to destroy the Device and the Mass within it. How would you know that from simple plans and orders to build the thing? I don't think you would personally
Ummm, how could he not know how to destroy it? He is the Builder, which is more than just that he was given a blueprint and told to get to hammering.

To build a device of such complexity that would destroy so much research would have to be done. Even more, it was obviously not a secret, no doubt all the Hylden who were upper echelon knew this, including any who helped to put the thing together, in fact, it was probably a safety measure, any Hylden get cut near the Device better bind up and not bleed on/into the thing.

If I were the Builder, and the rest of the Hylden involved in making such a weapon of mass destruction I would sure wish to know several things, one of them would be what could cause it to fail (ie kill the Mass), another would be how much can I trust my people working on it. I doubt the Builder was a traitor to his race, he may not have agreed, but the thing is his voice never expressed any sort of disgust when he talks about building the network. There is some haste when telling Kain how that the Device must be destroyed quickly, yes; however, he is also desperate to die and be freed, which not knowing the extent of his 'saviour's' knowledge he might just show alot of zeal to ensure his 'release'.

Builder: "Drink from me, vampire, and use my life's blood to kill that which I created out of arrogance and pride."

It sure seems like he was proud to be building the Device to me, proud and sure he would secure his race's superiority. In fact, it seems any regret or thoughts of turning on his race came long after the fact of his imprisonment.

The only sticky part is Magnus, as the SL (presumably) transported him there, but, then again, the Eternal Prison is far from some lockdown where only standard personal can gain entry. All that was keeping people out was a device which vampires can certainly operate with Telekinesis, and if Hylden possess the same ability them as well, along with who knows how many other beings. The Eternal Prison seems far from Hylden exclusive.

And again, if the Builder were there, and it was so close to finish, why would they lock him up? It would not matter if he wished to be a saboteur, you just keep him from the Mass and allow him to construct the Network needed to channel the energy (in fact, he said the Network was all that needed finishing). Builder: "We needed a way to send its energy out of the Device and into the land itself. We needed a conduit throughout the cities - a network, if you will. Once this network was created, the Device would channel the mental energy of the Mass, and send death upon our enemies."

From his own words it sounds too much like his imprisonment and the banishing of his race fell to close together to be sheer coincidence that the Hylden decided to lock him up the same time the Ancients banished them. Seems more likely the Ancients, or a third group themselves committed him to the Asylum that was the Eternal Prison before he could finish the Device.

Then there is one more problem, if the Eternal Prison is a Hylden tool to be used against the enemy then why is Magnus the only vampire there and all the rest are humans, spiders, skeletal-ghosts, and Guards? Then there is the questionable Lore boxes and Weapon Powerups which while not always conveniently placed are not usually so out of the way either.

Well, to rap this post up, it is 2:15AM, think I am going to go read some Harry Harrison (Finally found the whole Eden trilogy), some of this is no doubt disjointed because I added in some parts to sections after I thought them up, will give a once over to make sure the code worked, but not going to bother checking for grammar and spelling.

Edit: Bah, I suppose I should learn to use the buttons, but it's just more comfortable to type the code. Either way, fixed the code tags.

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 11:51
Forgive me but I am running short on time. (I have to run to work here shortly). My epiphany was this:

The Builder was imprisoned because he knew how to destroy the device - he created the fail-safe and implemented it into the original designs. (Hylden blood poisoning the mass) I would assume that he figured being a device of mass destruction, that it could lead to certain doom for the Hylden as well as the rest of Nosgoth. The original plans were designed so that this device could not be stopped once it was put to use. The builder's higher ups discovered his fail-safe idea and plot, and considered him a traitor to his race for wanting to stop such a great design. Not being allowed to explain why he chose to make the fail-safe, (the pros and cons of the design) the higher ups threw him into the Eternal Prison because he was technically a threat to the "Hylden way" of thinking.

Thinking that the Builder did not yet implement the fail-safe, a new crew of technicians were assigned (most likely oblivious to the fail-safe idea, just ordered to work). The higher-ups were of course wrong (seeing Kain was able to kill the mass) thus foiling their plans.

I'd like to comment further on this, but alas it will have to wait until later. Interested to hear your feedback though. :)

Azrael
4th Aug 2002, 12:48
This is an interesting thread ...


Posted by Umah:
Kain:
So this Device was never finished? And yet, the creature still lives within it?

The Builder:
It was dubbed 'The Mass'. It is eternal and deadly, yet harmless without a channel for its mind. But we never completed the weapon. We needed a way to send its energy out of the Device and into the land itself. We needed a conduit throughout the cities - a network, if you will. Once this network was created, the Device would channel the mental energy of the Mass, and send death upon our enemies.

From the look of it, it really looks like The Elder God..eternal, uses the mind(to talk with Raz), harmless (he says that he destroy/punish Raz, but in the end he does nothing)... i don't know if its me, but it resembles too much with the Elder...and its even deeply underground, and it could explain his hated for Kain too...

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 19:52
Um, where was the reference to the Elder God or Raziel in this thread (other than the slight Hash reference)?

We were discussing the Builder, the Device, the Mass and the Hylden and the Eternal Prison.

You lost me Az...LOL

;) :p

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 20:23
he thinks the Mass may be the Elder

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 21:02
Never thought of that. Oh yeah I remember why. The Mass looks more plantlike than squidlike. :p

I am not going to buy that Squiddy started off that as big as he was and there is no evidence to support the Mass being the Elder. Besides, the Mass was quick to die when poisoned, last I checked, Squiddy's still chilling under Nosgoth. :p ;)

Non-existent
4th Aug 2002, 22:04
Umah: The problem is the builder's own words:
Builder: "It houses an ancient creature, whose very mind is capable of killing any living thing with but a thought."
Builder: "It was dubbed 'The Mass'. It is eternal and deadly, yet harmless without a channel for its mind."
Builder: "It has a simple weakness. Blood is like poison to its system. And not any blood, but pure blood from the elder races."
The problem with the Builder's statements is that it sounds like the Hylden grew the Mass while at the same time sounding like they just found it, did some research and decided to use it. (The way he constantly says 'Ancient creature' and 'eternal and deadly' sounds like it was around before he came to start work on the Device. There is also the way the Device is clearly seperated in meaning from the Mass.)


Thinking that the Builder did not yet implement the fail-safe, a new crew of technicians were assigned (most likely oblivious to the fail-safe idea, just ordered to work). The higher-ups were of course wrong (seeing Kain was able to kill the mass) thus foiling their plans.
I am not seeing that at all. I am going to write down my logic at looking at this, simply so my thought process is visible so any flaws may be pointed out by any who happen along.

The Mass had a severe reaction to blood of both Elder Races. The Mass is a living creature. The Mass, as a living creature, if it had not already been in existence before the Hylden came along had to be grown. If the Builder grew the Mass then it would be born with any weaknesses already in place that he planned. There could be no way the other Hylden could find out about the weakness and not know that the weakness was already a part of the Mass' system. The only possibility if the weakness was implemented later would be that the Builder began to expose the Mass to large quantities of Blood to foster an allergic reaction to the blood (such as with allergies that develop later in life from over exposure to a certain substance). If the Builder was exposing the Mass to large quantities of Elder Blood in order to foster such an allergy then the Hylden would have seen this, and any signs of developing allergic reaction to the blood would be obvious in the Mass' reaction to the exposure.

I just do not see how the Builder could have done that, the other Hylden been oblivous, and then just lock him up without a howdeedo, especially if the fail-safe (if it was planned) was there since the creatures beginning and the Builder never acted on it or showed any signs of acting on it. The Builder even said he created it out of Pride and Arrogance.

If the Builder was locked up by Hylden it is more likely it was the traitors who did it, and not the faithful Hylden.

As for the Elder and the Mass being connected in some way: Well, there is a Lovecraftian Elder Being feeling to both of them, it is possible that they are both part of the same 'species' (term used lightly) of immensely powerful creatures, or something. (I believe this was discussed on the Old Boards long ago)

Edit: Note to self, the past tense of Discuss is Discussed, not Discusses.

Azrael
4th Aug 2002, 22:23
Sorry guys, so here's my apologies by running OT and thread content. I wrote that because i was reading the replies and when i passed by Umah's reply (w/BO2 dialogue)... reading it made me think in a relationship between the Elder and The Mass...

And Umah, today its the "Doc Az" that needs an exam...lol

Im going to bed..

warpsavant
4th Aug 2002, 23:06
The problem with the Builder's statements is that it sounds like the Hylden grew the Mass...

I don't think they grew the mass. I think they built the machine around it.

I would have to say I do not think the Hylden are the ones who punished the builder. Either the vampires or the true Prison Wardens, or whoever was in charge of the prison at that time is the one(s) who put him in the Prison. But that whole thing about the blood and the fail safe, I must say, is very clever. In fact, it could have been the Time Streamer himself that put the builder there. No body knows.

I would also like to point out that the Builder claims blood of the Elder races is like poison to the Mass, but it is this very thing that the Hylden are using to FEED the thing. Janos says his BLOOD was needed to feed the device. So this whole thing with the Builder is skecthy.

Umah Bloodomen
4th Aug 2002, 23:16
Sketchy yes. But good (and plausable) stuff nonetheless. :p ;) :)

keepittrue
5th Aug 2002, 08:51
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Forgive me but I am running short on time. (I have to run to work here shortly). My epiphany was this:

The Builder was imprisoned because he knew how to destroy the device - he created the fail-safe and implemented it into the original designs. (Hylden blood poisoning the mass) I would assume that he figured being a device of mass destruction, that it could lead to certain doom for the Hylden as well as the rest of Nosgoth. The original plans were designed so that this device could not be stopped once it was put to use. The builder's higher ups discovered his fail-safe idea and plot, and considered him a traitor to his race for wanting to stop such a great design. Not being allowed to explain why he chose to make the fail-safe, (the pros and cons of the design) the higher ups threw him into the Eternal Prison because he was technically a threat to the "Hylden way" of thinking.

Thinking that the Builder did not yet implement the fail-safe, a new crew of technicians were assigned (most likely oblivious to the fail-safe idea, just ordered to work). The higher-ups were of course wrong (seeing Kain was able to kill the mass) thus foiling their plans.

I'd like to comment further on this, but alas it will have to wait until later. Interested to hear your feedback though. :)




And where did you get this info from??????????

The builder was imprisoned at the time of the banishment, what do you mean they imprisond him because he knew how to destroy the mass?????????

Umah Bloodomen
6th Aug 2002, 00:38
Originally posted by keepittrue



And where did you get this info from??????????

The builder was imprisoned at the time of the banishment, what do you mean they imprisond him because he knew how to destroy the mass?????????

1. Where this information came from is my own mind. This was my speculation - my theory. You are the second person to take me for some LOK Encyclopedia with all the knowledge of things that have happened to things that have yet to happen. :rolleyes: I do not know for sure, just as many of us don't. But I still speculate and theorize nonetheless.

2. From what I gathered, the Builder was imprisoned just before the banishment. (Events occur as this: Imprisoned then Banished)



The Builder:

Yes, yes. The Device. The Device was built as a weapon aeons ago when two races warred with each other for dominance of Nosgoth. It houses an ancient creature, whose very mind is capable of killing any living thing with but a thought.
The Device was to channel the mental energy of this creature, and direct it onto Nosgoth. It would attune the creature's mind to kill all living creatures except for my race. Before it could be completed, however, I was imprisoned here, and the rest of my race was banished to another, far more terrible realm.

3. I mean that he was imprisoned for knowing and possibly utilizing a plan to foil the plans of his higher-ups within the Hylden society. Meaning he was considered a traitor to his race for creating a method to stop a doomsday-like effect which could also eliminate his race as well as any other race around at the time.

I also agree with Warp. The Hylden merely constructed the Device as a means to harbor and use the energy of the Mass within. The creature was there before this.

Something is not adding up with the Builder or the Device. I feel he plays a far more significant role in this than what has been displayed for us. I am not ruling out the fact of my suggestion being out of righteousness or fear of his beloved races' demise, but something happened, that he had a hand in, which ticked off those Hylden with the specific evil intentions and got his butt thrown in prison.

keepittrue
6th Aug 2002, 23:43
Well I dont mean to be offensive but you kind of remind me of pale horseman , everything he said was like he made it to be factual. My bad.

darien_specter
10th Aug 2002, 09:59
I think NE has a good point about the prison beloning to the Ancients and built by the original Guardians. Do not forget that it can also be modified; so a proposal:

The ancients build the Eternal Prison, for whatever reason, and the Builder of the Device is captured, and imprisoned there;the Time Guardian has a major hand in it. Thus, it becomes part of the Time Guardian's jurisdiction. Thus, when Moebius comes along, he inherits it, and builds a glorious statue of himself inside. Its staff of scythe-weilding psychos do nasty things to people, but who knows when they or the people were put there? Perhaps the ever-shifty and devious Moebius populated it thus; perhaps the Hylden rediscovered it, and decided to experiment on these humans that they had apparently helped along out of thier caves, to see what they were up to in the long eons of their banishment. (I'd suggest the latter, based on the similarity of the nasty stuff done to the people and to Magnus; though he could have just been abandoned to the fate of Moebius' goons.) Whover put the humans in, the Hylden capture Magnus, toss him in, and install some Hylden locks throughout, also smashing the statue of Moebius for whatever reason (maybe they hate him as a guardian of the vampiric Pillars, or they've used him and they're done with him - whatever.) And so it is the way Kain finds it.

Not a perfect possibility, of course, but like I said, I think NE's right about the ancients imprisoning the Builder before he could finish; millenia of imprisonment either derange him, or he has plenty of time to contemplate his wrongdoing. But I can't see him conveniently having an attack of conscience just before the Pillars are raised...